Topic: Everyone in the USA Read this your country is at stake

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

Yes, because every white American can spell every word in the English language correctly.

There are more than three times the number of characters in the Cherokee syllabary than in the English alphabet. Also, Cherokee doesnt even use the sounds of several English consonants, so there are no corresponding letters. That means that spelling it correctly in "English" becomes more important. Correctly pronouncing, or spelling, certain words can mean the difference between getting a laugh or getting your teeth knocked out.

[Lepton]

Proabably, but if we keep the discussion academic and not political...

Here in Canada we Have two official languages: English and French.

I always found it strange that the United States does not have two official languages: English and Spanish.

I think the proportion of Spanish speakers in the US is similar the the proportion of French speakers in Canada?

Generally it is a good thing to have two official languages for all federal services. It makes work and creates employment opportunities, and serves the public far more efficiently.

I've tried to help Spanish people on the phone, it would be much easier if I spoke Spanish.  Same goes for French (though I understand way more French). Think of the increase in efficiency, I understand that over 33% of the United States speaks Spanish as their first language. Imagine how much faster federal public services could run if the employees could effectively communicate with their clients (citizens).

So am I to understand that currently the United States does not have an official language at all? I suppose you could leave it that way and leave the options for languages in federal public services open. Though it would probably serve the US as well as it has Canada to support two official languages.

The English won in both North and South America, defeating the French in the North and Spanish in the south (or just making better colonisation choices). It's a compromise. A conquered people will suffer their fate much more pleasantly if their culture is recognised and supported.

Seems like a lot of fuss over a pretty simple issue from a Canadian perspective. Bilingualism is part of Canadian cultural identity, I don't see why it cannot be part of the American Cultural identity (well it already is, there is just this little issue of denial here...).

I have been to the United states twice, once to Boston which is very much like home in Eastern Canada, and I have also been to San Francisco, which struck me as a very different culture, the place names alone indicated the difference, much as in Quebec here in Canada.

I think the comparison of the two countries in this respect boils down to the difference in the philosophies of "Multiculturalism" versus "The Melting Pot". Both have their advantages but I think time has proven multiculturalism to be less idealistic, more practical and thus more successful.

Here's a hokey hockey analogy: "We're on the same team, just different strings". 

EDIT: LOL! We're getting Canadian Immigration Google ads on this thread now... Cool!    C'mon up! We don't speak Spanish but we do have two official langages!

The original poster did not offer it is an academic discussion.  It's jingoist, inflammatory rhetoric.  Put this dung in H&S.

[Bonk]

The original poster did not offer it is an academic discussion.  It's jingoist, inflammatory rhetoric.  Put this dung in H&S.

I realise that, however the original post is the only such post in the thread. I cannot move threads.

I thought I'd take the opportunity to present my view on the lack of recognition of the large proportion of the United States that speaks Spanish as their first language.

I think our discussion since has been quite civilised and academic. Such discussions do not belong in H&S (nor do I want my posts there if the thread is moved).

I recommend that the original post be truncated to before the rant begins, just cut it off after the presentation of the vote on the issue. To be honest, that is where I stopped reading and started posting. I still have not read past the first two paragraphs of the original post, and I do not plan to!   

[Centurus]

Yes, because every white American can spell every word in the English language correctly.

There are more than three times the number of characters in the Cherokee syllabary than in the English alphabet. Also, Cherokee doesnt even use the sounds of several English consonants, so there are no corresponding letters. That means that spelling it correctly in "English" becomes more important. Correctly pronouncing, or spelling, certain words can mean the difference between getting a laugh or getting your teeth knocked out.

Ahhh, but you forgot something there GMoS.  It can also help prevent you getting a laugh WHILE getting your teeth knocked out.   

[KOTH-KieranXC, Ret.]

Yes, because every white American can spell every word in the English language correctly.

There are more than three times the number of characters in the Cherokee syllabary than in the English alphabet. Also, Cherokee doesnt even use the sounds of several English consonants, so there are no corresponding letters. That means that spelling it correctly in "English" becomes more important. Correctly pronouncing, or spelling, certain words can mean the difference between getting a laugh or getting your teeth knocked out.

Ah. Well, that I can understand. I studied Russian for a couple of years, and it's the same way. There's letters in Russian that have no equivalent (and a couple that also make no sound, just govern pronunciation of the prior letter). There's also some instances where you move an accent mark around and you have a completely different word. Which also can mean the difference between a laugh and a missing tooth.

[KOTH-KieranXC, Ret.]

Also, in response to the OP... While I personally don't like the spread of Spanish and the reason it's become more prevalent(illegal immigrants that don't learn English) I agree with those that said we've been fine up to this point without an official language. Hell, there was a motion in the early 20th century to make German the official language, because there were so many German speakers in the country, but that also fell through.

[Just plain old Punisher]

What's the point? It's not like passing this law would suddenly force everyone to speak english anymore than saying the pledge of alliegance would instill patriotism in our children.

This sort of thing is the standard knee-jerk fear response against immigration.

This is America, people can speak whatever language they want.

[marstone]

What's the point? It's not like passing this law would suddenly force everyone to speak English anymore than saying the pledge of allegiance would instill patriotism in our children.

This sort of thing is the standard knee-jerk fear response against immigration.

This is America, people can speak whatever language they want.

The major point of it would be, how many different languages would government forms have to be printed in.  If we have an official language (and part of the test to become a citizen is to speak English), then all forms from the government would be printed in that language.  (If I moved to my wifes country of  Mexico and demanded government forms in English so I can read them, they would laugh at me).  It comes down to how many times does the same piece of paper have to be printed in how many languages (it adds up to a lot of expense).  With an official language of the country, you print in that language only.

IF you run the idea that you are in America and you can speak any language you want, how would a city like New York run with so many different ethnic groups.  Imagine the Job requirements to be a police officer in New York under that way of thinking.

"Wanted Peace Officer that speaks 30 languages fluently, to include, Mandarin, Mexican (I don't have the curlie cue to type Espaniol), Spanish, Gaelic, German, Slavic, Russian,Farsie, to name a few).  One of the first things needed to get along is the ability to communicate, if everyone did there own thing, it falls apart.

Oh, just a pointer on the immigration thing.  My wife is first Generation, I am only third.  And Happy St. Patties day all.

[Centurus]

What's the point? It's not like passing this law would suddenly force everyone to speak English anymore than saying the pledge of allegiance would instill patriotism in our children.

This sort of thing is the standard knee-jerk fear response against immigration.

This is America, people can speak whatever language they want.

The major point of it would be, how many different languages would government forms have to be printed in.  If we have an official language (and part of the test to become a citizen is to speak English), then all forms from the government would be printed in that language.  (If I moved to my wifes country of  Mexico and demanded government forms in English so I can read them, they would laugh at me).  It comes down to how many times does the same piece of paper have to be printed in how many languages (it adds up to a lot of expense).  With an official language of the country, you print in that language only.

IF you run the idea that you are in America and you can speak any language you want, how would a city like New York run with so many different ethnic groups.  Imagine the Job requirements to be a police officer in New York under that way of thinking.

"Wanted Peace Officer that speaks 30 languages fluently, to include, Mandarin, Mexican (I don't have the curlie cue to type Espaniol), Spanish, Gaelic, German, Slavic, Russian,Farsie, to name a few).  One of the first things needed to get along is the ability to communicate, if everyone did there own thing, it falls apart.

Oh, just a pointer on the immigration thing.  My wife is first Generation, I am only third.  And Happy St. Patties day all.

Mexican is an ethnic group.  Spanish is the language Mexican's speak.  Other than that, you got some great points.

[marstone]

Mexican is an ethnic group.  Spanish is the language Mexican's speak.  Other than that, you got some great points.

True, as I tried to spell it, Mexican Spanish is Espanol (been way to long since I have seen it).  The reason I put it that way is because, Spain Spanish and Mexican Spanish are two different languages.  If you speak one you can understand the other (with some oddities to it).  I have studies a little Spain Spanish (I can't even get close to spelling what it is called, I can say it but can't spell it.  It is like Castelyano, named after an area of Spain).  The Hispanic people of this area (way up north, North Dakota actually) refer to there language as Mexican so i do also.  So does my wife, ref my last post (first generation).

But I shan't ague this point beyond here.  I think to many people get caught up in the little parts, to truly talk over the larger issue. 

I just like to say, we can't separate our country down ethnic lines (we have way to many).  Part of being the melting pot of the world is to blend together to make a stronger whole.  IF you want to make steel reinforced concrete you don't keep the parts separate as they are weaker that way, they are used togeather to make a stronger whole.

Oh, last point on language, imagine how much fun it would be on Dynaverse if everyone used a different language to post.  You would end up with each message only being looked at and commented on by a smaller part of the whole.  Not effective to a discussion.  Common language, ideas can flow.

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

I think that there should be only one language used for govt documents. If immigrants, legal or otherwise, learned English, it would make their integration into America smoother. It would be easier for a small group of people to learn English than for Americans to have to learn the top five immigrant languages. Think of all the civil servants who would have to learn multiple languages. Police officers, firemen, EMTs, judges, etc, etc. Would you have to pick juries who could speak the language of the defendants?

If you want to keep America divided then lets have several languages. Americans can then refer to immigrants as "those people" the way whites used to refer to Natives, Japanese, the Irish, etc. THe best way to foster hate is to keep people seperated.

[Just plain old Punisher]

The major point of it would be, how many different languages would government forms have to be printed in.  If we have an official language (and part of the test to become a citizen is to speak English), then all forms from the government would be printed in that language.  (If I moved to my wifes country of  Mexico and demanded government forms in English so I can read them, they would laugh at me).  It comes down to how many times does the same piece of paper have to be printed in how many languages (it adds up to a lot of expense).  With an official language of the country, you print in that language only.

In general, when there are over a certain number of people who speak a given language as their primary language living in an area, government forms/applications/ballots are made available in that language. This is not about people refusing to learn english -- even if they've been studing english for years they will always think/speak best in their native tongue. When we're talking about important documents like ballots or tax forms, for the purposes of comprehension it often makes sense to print them in multiple languages.

IF you run the idea that you are in America and you can speak any language you want, how would a city like New York run with so many different ethnic groups.  Imagine the Job requirements to be a police officer in New York under that way of thinking.

"Wanted Peace Officer that speaks 30 languages fluently, to include, Mandarin, Mexican (I don't have the curlie cue to type Espaniol), Spanish, Gaelic, German, Slavic, Russian,Farsie, to name a few).  One of the first things needed to get along is the ability to communicate, if everyone did there own thing, it falls apart.

That isn't a reasonable expectation, but you must admit, if you're working in a city like new york, and you speak more than one language -- that's going to make your job a whole lot easier. Police officers deal with the public, and if a signifigant percentage of that public speaks a language other than english, I think its a good idea for those officers to at least have a basic grasp of it. It's already a requirment in high school for graduation that you take at least 2 years of a foriegn language. In fact, it's common in many places around the world for the average citizen to speak multiple languages.

[Bonk]

I think that there should be only one language used for govt documents. If immigrants, legal or otherwise, learned English, it would make their integration into America smoother. It would be easier for a small group of people to learn English than for Americans to have to learn the top five immigrant languages.

This I can agree with, as it makes sense whether the decision is for a single official language or several.

Think of all the civil servants who would have to learn multiple languages. Police officers, firemen, EMTs, judges, etc, etc. Would you have to pick juries who could speak the language of the defendants?

Oh wait, I see, you're thinking differently. Such services are not federal in Canada are not not guaranteed to be bilingual. (With the RCMP as the exception as a national police force - local municipal police are not necessarily bilingual - similarly, only federal courts are assured bilingual - I'm sure provincial courts and municipal courts regularly enlist the services of translators) I'm talking about federal offices where you line up for service. It can only speed things up to have federal offices handle English and Spanish. Additionally it is pretty easy to hire a few Spanish speakers to work behind those federal desks, no need to send existing employees to be taught Spanish, just get a portion of Bilingual federal employees at the normal staff turnover rate. Simple.

If you want to keep America divided then lets have several languages. Americans can then refer to immigrants as "those people" the way whites used to refer to Natives, Japanese, the Irish, etc. THe best way to foster hate is to keep people seperated.

That however, I would consider an exaggeration or at the very least inflammatory. Why do I think so? Two official languages in Canada does not foster hate at all. In general it is a source of pride for most Canadians. Yes, there is some occasional abrasion, but we always work it out civilly. We have two Official Languages in Canada but keep no one separated based on language. (pot smokers are, but that is a somewhat different issue)

I don't think anyone is suggesting multiple official languages, just English and Spanish, which acknowledges the reality of the demands on your federal public services.

It was funny, last night on Family Guy this was exactly the issue. (well Mexican Immigration was) Anyway, I laughed my ass off as Peter made a great motivational speech that realistically assessed the value of immigration in America, the funny part was this little Latin voice pipes up at the end of the speech and says: "Great speech, but could you repeat the whole thing in Spanish please?". I got a good laugh out of that as it so accurately sums it up.

It just seems odd to me that this is such a big isue for Americans. Again, from a Canadian perspective it is a very simple matter. I think perhaps the difference is that French represents no direct threat to Canada as it is unlikely that our resources would be threatened by France expanding into our territory. Where Spanish does represent a threat to Americans as there is real competition for resources with Mexico? (that's kind of a wild guess)

I suggest exactly the opposite, that by recognising the reality of the situation that two official languages of English and Spanish would serve the public most effectively and efficiently then I think that Spanish speaking Americans would feel very welcome and part of an America they can be proud of.

Again, I must emphasise that is just my view of it as a Canadian. Perhaps there are other issues in the US that make it different from Canada when it comes to efficiency and effectiveness of federal public services.

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

I know that around here, in North Carolina, they are having real difficulty finding translators for our courts. Large groups of Spanish speaking people moving into this area has only happened in the last few years. People have spoken French in Canada for centuries.

Large areas in the US are segregated by language. When you arent exposed to a people on a regular basis, it breeds suspicion. People tend to stay in areas where they are comfortable. When new immigrants move here they tend to stay in areas where their native language is spoken. Once they learn the dominant language, they move out of those areas and become integrated.

[Bonk]

Large groups of Spanish speaking people moving into this area has only happened in the last few years. People have spoken French in Canada for centuries.

Very good point. I think that is the main difference between the US and Canada on this issue that I failed to recognise.

However, I do believe that in the entire US that the proportion of people with Spanish as a first language has been well over 30% for at least a few decades. (I have no source on that but could dig up an actual statistic if needed)

It is interesting how the colonisation decisions of France, Britain and Spain have played out here in North America. If you guys had duked it out with the Spanish like we did with the French here, then our perspectives on this issue would probably much closer. (Wait, it seems to me there was, however there was no single decisive battle that resulted in Mexico coming under British colonial rule, like what happened here at the Plains of Abraham.)

Heh,heh... if GeneralWolfe (AKA DonDawson) was lurking in this thread I bet his knickers would be in a real knot! 

Large areas in the US are segregated by language. When you arent exposed to a people on a regular basis, it breeds suspicion. People tend to stay in areas where they are comfortable. When new immigrants move here they tend to stay in areas where their native language is spoken. Once they learn the dominant language, they move out of those areas and become integrated.

That's no good. Sounds like the "Melting Pot" has failed there. Perhaps Canadian style "multiculturalism" would be more successful at including and integrating the richness of other cultures to strengthen and diversify American culture?

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

Large groups of Spanish speaking people moving into this area has only happened in the last few years. People have spoken French in Canada for centuries.

Very good point. I think that is the main difference between the US and Canada on this issue that I failed to recognise.

However, I do believe that in the entire US that the proportion of people with Spanish as a first language has been well over 30% for at least a few decades. (I have no source on that but could dig up an actual statistic if needed)

It is interesting how the colonisation decisions of France, Britain and Spain have played out here in North America. If you guys had duked it out with the Spanish like we did with the French here, then our perspectives on this issue would probably much closer. (Wait, it seems to me there was, however there was no single decisive battle that resulted in Mexico coming under British colonial rule, like what happened here at the Plains of Abraham.)

Heh,heh... if GeneralWolfe (AKA DonDawson) was lurking in this thread I bet his knickers would be in a real knot! 

Most of those areas were in the Southwest. Only recently have Spanish speaking people been "spreading out" and that with the influx of illegals comming from Mexico, Central and South America. I know that I heard Vietnamese here long before I heard Spanish.

Large areas in the US are segregated by language. When you arent exposed to a people on a regular basis, it breeds suspicion. People tend to stay in areas where they are comfortable. When new immigrants move here they tend to stay in areas where their native language is spoken. Once they learn the dominant language, they move out of those areas and become integrated.

That's no good. Sounds like the "Melting Pot" has failed there. Perhaps Canadian style "multiculturalism" would be more successful at including and integrating the richness of other cultures to strengthen and diversify American culture?

The melting pot works as long as both sides want the integration. Unfortunately, it seems to me, and to alot of Americans actually, that the illegals dont want to integrate. They seem to want to make alot of money, as compared to wages in their native countries, and return home or at least to send the money "home". One of the largest sources of capital comming into Mexico isnt through trade, its through money being sent back. A very large portion of the Mexican economy is based upon money flowing from the US to Mexico.

I dont think we should accomodate people who dont want to become Americans.

[marstone]

The melting pot works as long as both sides want the integration. Unfortunately, it seems to me, and to alot of Americans actually, that the illegals dont want to integrate. They seem to want to make alot of money, as compared to wages in their native countries, and return home or at least to send the money "home". One of the largest sources of capital comming into Mexico isnt through trade, its through money being sent back. A very large portion of the Mexican economy is based upon money flowing from the US to Mexico.

I dont think we should accomodate people who dont want to become Americans.

I will agree with not accomodating the people who don't want to become an American Citizen.  The problem with the politican side of this is that those of us who speak out against illigall imigration have the blanket thrown over us labeling us as anti-imigration.  Immigration has been the life blood of the US in building up a good good diversity of people.  But there are rules to follow.  No other country just lets anyone in at anytime, you apply, stand in line, follow the rules.  Just wish people would quit lumping these two different sides togeather.

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

The melting pot works as long as both sides want the integration. Unfortunately, it seems to me, and to alot of Americans actually, that the illegals dont want to integrate. They seem to want to make alot of money, as compared to wages in their native countries, and return home or at least to send the money "home". One of the largest sources of capital comming into Mexico isnt through trade, its through money being sent back. A very large portion of the Mexican economy is based upon money flowing from the US to Mexico.

I dont think we should accomodate people who dont want to become Americans.

I will agree with not accomodating the people who don't want to become an American Citizen.  The problem with the politican side of this is that those of us who speak out against illigall imigration have the blanket thrown over us labeling us as anti-imigration.  Immigration has been the life blood of the US in building up a good good diversity of people.  But there are rules to follow.  No other country just lets anyone in at anytime, you apply, stand in line, follow the rules.  Just wish people would quit lumping these two different sides togeather.

I agree. Im very much against illegal immigration, whether from Mexico, Canada, or any other country.

[Pestalence_XC]

My wife is Bilingual.. I speak english only.. My wife is Mexican Decent.. I am Italian Decent (Sicilian actually).. and I can't speak a word of Italian. and I'm 2nd generation.

My Father-N-Law was born in Monterey, Mexico.. came to the US illegally 2 times, deported 2 times, then went through proper channels and got residency.. He then worked on learning English to get his citizenship.. He has been a US Citizen for 7 years now...

My wife, as a child, grew up in a home that spoke nothing but Spanish.. she learned a few words from her mother for English when she was about 4 or 5 years old.. just enough to understand school..

Her mother grew up in Houston and Seguin, TX as a 1st Generation descendant for Illegal Migrant workers.. My Mother-N-Law was born in Seguin and was as such, a US Citizen.. and her first language was Spanish.. but in her home as my wife grew up.. Spanish became less and less and English took over, especially when my wife had 2 younger sisters going to school also.. her dad felt alienated.. but also realized that in order to conduct business, even in a Mexican populated town like Seguin, where 84% of the population is Hispanic, you have to speak and read and write English to get by.. sure most restaurants are Mexican and you hear Spanish everywhere.. but when you go to Wal-Mart.. very few employees speak Spanish... just like the Auto-Parts stores.. maybe 1 in 7 employees can speak Spanish fluently enough to help Spanish Speaking Only customers.. Most of which have either Residency cards or no ID at all.. Almost every Hispanic person living here that has a valid Texas Drivers License speaks English well enough to conduct business or give directions.. not all but most...

Needless to say, by Wife's first language was Spanish for almost 7 years of her life.. however she thinks in English.. and she can speak Spanish very well.. however I wouldn't say Fluent ... Most Hispanic people here, unless they are just arriving or are 1st to 2nd generation (and most times not even that far), thinks in English.. This is from personal experience...

I have been in many circumstances where I was working construction and the people I hire were Mexican or Hispanic and they acted like they barely knew English... but when it came to the first pay day and I purposely misprinted their checks for improper amounts.. Just to test a theory... 99% of my Hispanic employees all of a sudden knew how to speak English perfectly... or at least well enough to let me know I miscalculated their checks.. the one's who couldn't speak English or understand English.. I corrected their checks later that afternoon...

but the point is that in order to conduct business you need to understand English, Write English and Read English, even in this Hispanic town or else you won't make it financially.. At least that it is down here in Texas in the area where I live...

Should the US have a National Language.. You bet... there are small towns in California and Texas, New Mexico, Florida (Cuban.. namely downtown Miami) where English is the 2nd language.. however, the rest of the country, English is the primary language.. If it is standardized by law across the board.. not only would Spanish speaking people have to learn English.. but all immigrants coming into the US legally... it would increase the chances of getting a job and so forth.. People would be able to read Street and Warning signs, read a road map, etc.. without getting confused, or worse, causing an accident.. there would be no barriers in conducting business, reading legal forms, etc.. no need for translators except for those who are just learning English... Plus it would make it much harder for Illegal Immigrants to get things done in the US... hopefully making them pursue becoming legal residents that are taxed like the rest of us.. contribute back into the economy they are leaching off of... See if they go to Food Stamps, Housing Authority, Medicad, Wellfare, WIC, etc and can't speak or read English, if there are not any translators, no documents in Spanish or any other language, forcing a language barrier on to stuff like Western Union Money Grams, Drivers License, Court, Hospitals, Etc... then it would be much easier to eliminate illegal aliens in this country and maybe our economy can improve some... making things less hospitable for illegals to where they don't want to come to our country illegally.. this goes for all nationalities.. I'm just using Hispanic as a popular reference.. but the point is clear... It isn't hard to become a US Citizen.. but it does take an effort to show that you want to be a US Citizen and as such becoming an American... Illegals don't want to become Americans.. they just want to send money to their families in their native country and leach our resources and get reduced cost or free services that the rest of us, the Tax Payers, have to dish out money for... and I for one have a hard enough time supporting my family, I don't need to support people who don't want to become a productive American Citizen with my hard earned money.

[marstone]

I follow that Pesty, my wife spoke spanish only until she was 9, now she speaks almost no spanish, speak English so fluent that if you talked to her on the phone you wouldn't think she had any Mexican in her.  I myself am barely Unilingual. My son now speaks English, French, and a spatering of Spanish.  It is a good thing overall.