Topic: ASE (ASCII Scene Export)

[Bonk]

Can someone set me straight on ASCII model file formats?

It's driving me nuts, Milkshape's ASCII format is different from Max's which is different from Directx... arg!

The variety of file formats is insane, it is simple data... is there any hope for adherence to a standard format in the graphics industry?

I fail to see the need for a zillion and one file formats that all do exactly the same thing.

Anyway, I'm looking for information on this ASE (ASCII Scene Export) which neither Milkshape or Max seem able to generate. (Hmmm haven't tried blender yet...)

Anyone heard of it? Are there any programs that can export to it? Or am I stuck with a manual mesh transcription or writing a script to do it? A sample file is attached, does anyone have software that can produce such a file from existing models? (Is this an outdated version of Max's ASCII format? - I suspect so...)

If I were to define a standard, bare bones 3d data file format is there any hope the industry would adopt it?

[atheorhaven]

I have it in my old copy of Max 3.1.. I'd downloaded a mesh a while back for a personal project (I finally had to get rid of my dad's van and I'm now trying to recreate it in a virtual, can't be taken away, form).

I've loaded up the ,3ds mesh, and then exported it to .ASE from Max.  And have attached it to here.. am going to next try to re-import it.

It should be able to be read with Deep Exploration...

[sierracharlie]

There are literally hundreds of file formats for modes. Some are coded for ascii text and others are binary encoded. Many of them are tailored for a specific application.

Collada is an industry attempt at a universal scene definition language. It is similar in layout to XML.

[Rod ONeal]

Deep Exploration CAD does open it. It won't save in it though. It is apparently an old format (not supported in max5, anyway).

There's a 30 day demo version of DE available, if that'll help.

http://www.righthemisphere.com/products/dexp/de_cad.html

For just 3d geometry .obj is the way to go for a universal format. Collada is the current attempt for a universal format that also supports animation. It's not quite there yet, but almost.

[Bonk]

Max 3.1 eh, I suspected as much. Hmm, I wonder if I have an old copy of that lying around.

I need to save in this format, though I'm starting to think the reason why is too old and that I should start fresh myself with my own directx/opengl code.

You'll see where I'm going with this:
Marry this: http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163379134.msg1122866650.html#msg1122866650
with this: http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details/148031
And you have an NSIS installer that can display 3d models with an overhead of about 300KB, perfectly reasonable for larger installers.

I wanted to get that winamp vis working with NSIS. (I do basically, but it will not display static textures - it is looking for the winamp window..., and I currently cannot generate the ASE files).

I think I might be best off to write my own directx plugin and use .x files. There might be some hope that is pretty standard.

XML!? For a 3d data file format? Excuse me while I pull out my remaining hair... Dear God, I don't think there is anything in this world that I hate more than XML.

I propose the simplest and most universal of formats. Text: one 3d point per line, comma delimited. Origin at 0,0,0 and data points as signed 32 bit integers, which I expect would provide sufficient data points, though a 64 bit equivalent would be quite simple. Perhaps the first line of the file would define the data type used and origin... e.g.:

Code: [Select]

INT:0,0,0
5,5,5
-5,5,5
...
ENDDATA

Any additional definitions can be added after the end of the standardised data. (such as groups, materials, joints...)

The same structure can be used for data of higher dimensionality as well... I just had a very freaky idea... take some huge multivariable data sets from nature, reduce the dimensionality of the dataset using principal components analysis to 3 dimensions then plot the data to see what you get. I'm betting some pretty spectacular organic structures would emerge... though it could possibly result in unexciting nondescript blobs as well...

I'll take a look at this Collada standard, it might be useful, but as XML I expect not.

I think in the long haul I'll use .x files anyway, I just wanted to see if I could get this old plugin working but I think it has too many issues to be useful.

[atheorhaven]

Max 3.1 eh, I suspected as much. Hmm, I wonder if I have an old copy of that lying around.
I need to save in this format, though I'm starting to think the reason why is too old and that I should start fresh myself with my own directx/opengl code.
You'll see where I'm going with this:
Marry this: http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163379134.msg1122866650.html#msg1122866650
with this: http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details/148031
And you have an NSIS installer that can display 3d models with an overhead of about 300KB, perfectly reasonable for larger installers.
I wanted to get that winamp vis working with NSIS. (I do basically, but it will not display static textures - it is looking for the winamp window..., and I currently cannot generate the ASE files).
I think I might be best off to write my own directx plugin and use .x files. There might be some hope that is pretty standard.
XML!? For a 3d data file format? Excuse me while I pull out my remaining hair... Dear God, I don't think there is anything in this world that I hate more than XML.
I propose the simplest and most universal of formats. Text: one 3d point per line, comma delimited. Origin at 0,0,0 and data points as signed 32 bit integers, which I expect would provide sufficient data points, though a 64 bit equivalent would be quite simple. Perhaps the first line of the file would define the data type used and origin... e.g.:

Code: [Select]

INT:0,0,0
5,5,5
-5,5,5
...
ENDDATA
Any additional definitions can be added after the end of the standardised data. (such as groups, materials, joints...)
The same structure can be used for data of higher dimensionality as well... I just had a very freaky idea... take some huge multivariable data sets from nature, reduce the dimensionality of the dataset using principal components analysis to 3 dimensions then plot the data to see what you get. I'm betting some pretty spectacular organic structures would emerge... though it could possibly result in unexciting nondescript blobs as well...
I'll take a look at this Collada standard, it might be useful, but as XML I expect not.
I think in the long haul I'll use .x files anyway, I just wanted to see if I could get this old plugin working but I think it has too many issues to be useful.

Just as a thought.. try exporting your object as a .MOD file and then run it through the SFC 3 Recache tool.  It generates a .X file, and I'm pretty sure that I could view those correctly in Deep Exploration as well once the Recacher generates them.  Probably the quickest way I know of for generating those.. you don't even have to open a modelling program if you already have a .MOD file to work from.

What I'll try tonight (when I get home), is take that .ASE file, reimport it to Max, reexport it as a .MOD file, and then run it through the recacher, and try viewing the resulting file in Deep Exploration.  If it works corrently (or not), then I'll post an image.

But I think your best option for general compatibility will be .X, but I am curious as to what format the Winamp visualizations are in, as I think you're onto something with that.  The older versions of Winamp were generally light on their toes, even with visualizations.  And it'd be kind of neat to do up a vis for it. 

Also, if you can, check out the Assimsoft software for displaying models (if you can find it, if not, let me know, I still have a copy of it), Chris had the Milkshape plugins, but he also had his own viewers that'd import meshes and (if I remember correctly) display them using OpenGL, which is what you're thinking of using if you're following the same idea as the Winamp plugin you listed.

[Bonk]

Also, if you can, check out the Assimsoft software for displaying models (if you can find it, if not, let me know, I still have a copy of it), Chris had the Milkshape plugins, but he also had his own viewers that'd import meshes and (if I remember correctly) display them using OpenGL, which is what you're thinking of using if you're following the same idea as the Winamp plugin you listed.

I do have the Assimsoft milkshape plugins (and source). I do not recall a viewer though...

After tinkering with this old winamp plugin, if I could not find an application to easily convert .mod files into a standard format easily read from directx or opengl code, my intention was to snag code to read the .mod files from the milkshape import plugin then use that to have an NSIS (or Winamp) plugin render the model through directx or opengl, though I'm leaning to directx, but if Chris has opengl code I could reuse that might be the faster way to go. Having the plugin read .mod files directly makes the most sense for our use, but for general use it would be good for it to recognise .x files as well.

Thanks bunches for the input on this, it's not like it will be all that useful but would be a fun toy and a good exercise for future SFC projects...   And I do like the idea of 3d software installers, its not something I have seen before and with the market for flash and pizazz in software these days it just might fly...

try exporting your object as a .MOD file and then run it through the SFC 3 Recache tool.  It generates a .X file,

Hmm that souonds like it would be a handy tool in this process, where might I find it? (actually just let me google that...)

[Centurus]

I know what would be killer for future SFC projects!!!!  UPDATED PLUGINS FOR NEWER VERSIONS OF MAX!!!!   

[Bonk]

I know what would be killer for future SFC projects!!!!  UPDATED PLUGINS FOR NEWER VERSIONS OF MAX!!!!   

Indeed, that would be a worthwhile project.

Problem there really is Max licensing... Is it possible to get a fully functional time limited demo? Would it last long enough to develop a plugin? And how many days would it take to download on dialup? (Ditto for the API) Don't feel obliged to answer these questions, though I can look em all up myself, just questions I'd need to answer if I were to tackle that. (currently I'm just occupying myself with this NSISBASS thing until I get the go-ahead on the sprites project, which will get priority of course.)

[Centurus]

Getting a trial is easy.  I've got one, but I've also got a keygen with it.  Also, there are people I know with MAX 7, 8, 9, and 10 that have obtained their copies through one means or another.  I'm sure they would be happy to test any plugins for ya.

Normally the trials are fully functioning, and for like 21 or 30 days.  But for dialup download, it would probably take you that long to download it.

And I have the original source code for the original MAX plugins for SFC.  Wouldn't that make things a little easier?  Honestly asking cause I know nothing of programming.

[atheorhaven]

I do have the Assimsoft milkshape plugins (and source). I do not recall a viewer though...

Found a working link to it (but read the docs on it, it can screw up your file associations for 3D files otherwise):

http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/file/Ultimate_model_viewer;3052

After tinkering with this old winamp plugin, if I could not find an application to easily convert .mod files into a standard format easily read from directx or opengl code, my intention was to snag code to read the .mod files from the milkshape import plugin then use that to have an NSIS (or Winamp) plugin render the model through directx or opengl, though I'm leaning to directx, but if Chris has opengl code I could reuse that might be the faster way to go. Having the plugin read .mod files directly makes the most sense for our use, but for general use it would be good for it to recognise .x files as well.

Thanks bunches for the input on this, it's not like it will be all that useful but would be a fun toy and a good exercise for future SFC projects...   And I do like the idea of 3d software installers, its not something I have seen before and with the market for flash and pizazz in software these days it just might fly...

No worries, and I don't see it as useless at all.  Anything that reads in .MOD files and displays them in Winamp will also help keep the game alive, and maybe bring in some non-SFC players.  Logic works like this:

non-SFC'er with Winamp downloads plugin.  Plays with plugin, likes it a lot.  Gets bored with default item, goes looking for more.  Finds lots and lots and LOTS of .MODs.  Gets curious about this "Starfleet Command".  Downloads the SFC 2 Demo and plays it.  Now wants to get in the game!

try exporting your object as a .MOD file and then run it through the SFC 3 Recache tool.  It generates a .X file,

Hmm that souonds like it would be a handy tool in this process, where might I find it? (actually just let me google that...)

Best search term "SFC3 Modelling Tools" should bring up a lot..

[Centurus]

Last I checked, the site at the following link had all the modding tools for SFC3.

http://sfc.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/sfc3/article_stylsy1230.shtml

It's been a long long time since I've tried to download anything from there, but you might get lucky and hit paydirt.

[Bonk]

Ya I got em from filefront.

Cool, I gave the Recache tool a try, yup it generated .x files, but binary ones with no texture references, (perhaps it did not like the SFC2 model I used it on). I used the Directx SDk to convert it to a text .x file and sure enough all the texture names are empty. Seems to have a lot of extra junk info in the file too...

I can convert .mod files to standard Directx text .x files with Milkshape... more easily, and the texturing information is preserved. Interesting to get a look at the sfc modeling info though.

I'll take a look at that ultimate model viewer to see if it might be any help. I think I'll just take a good look at all this stuff and then put together my own directx plugin.

[Bonk]

non-SFC'er with Winamp downloads plugin.  Plays with plugin, likes it a lot.  Gets bored with default item, goes looking for more.  Finds lots and lots and LOTS of .MODs.  Gets curious about this "Starfleet Command".  Downloads the SFC 2 Demo and plays it.  Now wants to get in the game!

Exactly my thinking as well. (As well as flashy installers and single file executable demo models)

[Rod ONeal]

www.unwrap3d.com

UU3D will open .MOD and save in ASE. It's an inexpensive app. $50.