Topic: X-ships in OP

[Tulwar]

Actually the lack of power is the only thing that keeps the Feds from being uber-ships.  I couldn't imagine trying to fight against the Feds if they could get close enough to use their photons effectively.  As it is, the Feds are over-armed because the G-Racks are simply A-Racks, and the Feds get free AMDs.  In SFB, a Federation starship had turn w/o AMD when firing missiles.  It would take a serious patch to make the G-Racks work the way they are supposed to.  After what happened to the I-torps in SFC EAW's final patch, I would hesitate before letting anyone mod a correction.

Correcting the entire shiplist is an ambitious concept.  There are only about 100, maybe a couple less, 2nd Generation X-ships in the entire game.  There are well over 2300 lines in the stock shiplist and many, many more in Firesoul's.  I think Firesoul's shiplist is the defacto standard.  It's much more fun than stock, anyway.

I now have a spare computer and high speed internet access.  I've always wanted to run a SFC server.  I just wounder how many people would be interested in giving my shiplist a try.

I've created a table for empires and weapon weights to create better balanced X-Ships:

The following is my ideal table for assigning weapons to 2nd Generation Advanced Hvy Cruisers:

EMPIRE                           Phasers   /    Hvy Weapons       Total

Federation                          16                 15                   31
Gorn                                  16                 15                   31
Hydran                               16                 14                   30
ISC                                    14                 16                   30
Klingon                               14                 16                   30
Lyran                                 15                 16                   31
Mirak                                  16                 14                   30
Romulan                             17                 11                   28


General Weapon Weight Table:

Photon      1
hvy photon     2
disruptor                   1
hvy dis      2

ph 1      0.75
ph 2      0.5
ph 3      0.25
Ph x      1
ph g      1
ph g2      2
ph a      0.5
ph b      0.5

plas f      1
plas g      1.5
plas s      2
plas r      3.3
plas x      2.5
plas e      2.25
ppd      2

drn a      0.5
drn b      0.75
drn c      1
drn m      1.75
add 6      negligible
add 12      0.25

hb      1.3
fg      1
esg      1.5

Of course some ships need to be fudged ever so slightly to fit these parameters, but this is very similar to the automatic BPV adjustment in Ship Edit.  I also make a few minor adjustments to BPV.

By this calculation table, the stock Rom XCA has only 21 weapons, making it miserably under-armed compared to XCA's of other empires.  The stock Romulan XCB, however, is pretty close to reasonable with a weight of (rounded to the nearest) 26.

I've wasted a month on this, and reached a finishing point.  Well, I guess there's play-testing.  Now, to get my .mct and .scr files in order.  I may have to reinstall the game.  No telling what all I nerfed up trying to get the EAW campaigns for OP with Nuclear Wessels, and Tracy G's missions.  They might have some odious components that I didn't anticipate.

[marstone]

well, point wise, the fed's could have the bpv increaded by 1 or 2 for each add added and turn the g racks back into a's. 

[marstone]

...The cloak has no effect on MRVs...

The cloak is ineffective against the MIRV submunitions (a bug), but it does work against the parent vehicle. So if you can cloak before they blossom you can get rid of them.

Actually not a bug, the submunitions of a MIRV (MW in SFB) are not effected by a cloak, they track the warp signature of the ship they target.  The bug with MIRV's is that the submunition is only suppose to have a range of 8 or 12 (forget, been ten years plus).  So the bus vehicle is suppose to fly longer so a cloak would have more of a chance to work as the drone would have to be close for the submunitions to hit (I think it is range 12 of lock on and 8 hexes of movement, could look it up, but truely isn't that important ATT).

[Corbomite]

...The cloak has no effect on MRVs...

The cloak is ineffective against the MIRV submunitions (a bug), but it does work against the parent vehicle. So if you can cloak before they blossom you can get rid of them.

Actually not a bug, the submunitions of a MIRV (MW in SFB) are not effected by a cloak, they track the warp signature of the ship they target.  The bug with MIRV's is that the submunition is only suppose to have a range of 8 or 12 (forget, been ten years plus).  So the bus vehicle is suppose to fly longer so a cloak would have more of a chance to work as the drone would have to be close for the submunitions to hit (I think it is range 12 of lock on and 8 hexes of movement, could look it up, but truely isn't that important ATT).

Well that's one way to look at it. Another is that since there is no ATG in SFC and the MIRV's don't behave as in SFB anyway, its a bug. I prefer the latter.


And Age: Fed ships are the baseline for all other races in the game. They pretty much already have all they need with better shield regeneration, magic photons and free AMD racks. I'm sure some could use a few tweaks, but certainly not any of their myriad BCH's.

[FPF-DieHard]

Fed ships don't need nuttin! 

They are the race that is the least screwed out against everyone else.   people think the ISC are OTT, trying taking on Hydrans in mid with PBR fleetig rules.

Back on topic, the Taldren X-ships suck.   For the Slave Girls servers we simply removed them.

[Age]

I was thinking of Car+,Car+R,CC+,CCR.BCJ,BCF and BCG.Those are the only one I guess as Diehard say the don't need nuthing.

[Corbomite]

...The cloak has no effect on MRVs...

The cloak is ineffective against the MIRV submunitions (a bug), but it does work against the parent vehicle. So if you can cloak before they blossom you can get rid of them.

Actually not a bug, the submunitions of a MIRV (MW in SFB) are not effected by a cloak, they track the warp signature of the ship they target.  The bug with MIRV's is that the submunition is only suppose to have a range of 8 or 12 (forget, been ten years plus).  So the bus vehicle is suppose to fly longer so a cloak would have more of a chance to work as the drone would have to be close for the submunitions to hit (I think it is range 12 of lock on and 8 hexes of movement, could look it up, but truely isn't that important ATT).

Well that's one way to look at it. Another is that since there is no ATG in SFC and the MIRV's don't behave as in SFB anyway, its a bug. I prefer the latter.

Ok I just re-read the rules on Energy Seeking Type VI Dogfight Drones. Under most conditions they do retain lock on, or have a couple of chances to retain lock on. Since MIRV submunitions and Fighter Drones are the same thing, i.e. Type VI Dogfight Drones, and the cloak in SFC nerfs fighter missiles, but not MIRV submunitions, one of those two instances is a bug.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Ummm I still play on Gspy all the time.  Not much of us left but enough for some games usually pretty good. 

Most games are Late No X but we do fly the X ships.  The most "balanced"  (against each other) X ships are the Light Cruisers. 

Of the X weaponry the MIRVS and G2's are close to broken.  In particular the G2 phaser, which started off broken was broken again when they "fixed" it.  Now it hits like a Phaser 4 with practically no energy requirements.  Duh.  They get restricted as a matter of honor among the pilots unless they are ok'd by the host.   

MIRVs start coming "into their own" at much higher BPV's than most HC ADV cruiser battles are fought.  The Mirak cruiser are pretty cheap and can run mid speed drones and you sometimes see the Mirak XCA playing in a 355 game with 2 loads of mid speed drones (144) but most players prefer to play the much more battle worthy Klingon XCA (sorta like a C7 on steroids) in those kinds of games.

At 380 some of the battleships start coming onto play.  In fact its not uncommon to see someone flying a FED BB much lower.  A BB can still pretty much knock the SWAK out of an X Ship ADV Cruiser if flown properly.

X ships aren't the beef on GSPY.  If you know the pitfalls you can still have good battles.  The real problem is Tugs.  Tugs are ridiculous; off the charts far as I'm concerned.  While many are slow moving plasma bait some of them can go speed 29 with power to spare (if you shut down some things until later) like the Mirak TBT at 170 you get in EARLY Era with 7 drones, 6 disr and 7 transporters.  Then there's the Mirak CBT at 185 in mid era with 8 DISR, 7 drones, 7 transporters, etc capable of taking on a C7 in Late.  The Klings and Lyrans have similar models but not quite as good.  Then the ROMS have the KRTSR they can get in mid with 50 power at 153 with 4 F torps 1 plasma D 7 transporters, just set your speed to 29, run your shift to 2 and your tractor to 4 and start chasing everyone all over the map.  Good skill.         Not.

There are also a few Maulers and War Destroyers that are pretty nasty and imbalanced like the Lyran STL or Hydran LNHV2 with 10 fighters which can play 10 Hornet II at 156 or Hornet III at 176.  The ROM SPF can be had in Mid for 120 and in team play can do,minate a game.  Then the Klings have a few that can charge their Mauler at 25-26 including a DM model, but at least its a true Mauler with few other weapons, defensive systems and such.  That Lyran STL can fly solo without much fear from most any ship in that BPV range.  It can do close to 100 points at range 6 with its Mauler alone; after its raped you with 4 more Disr and 4 more ESg plus 10 PH 1's there's a good chance your ship blows up on the first pass unless your a Gorn or HAHA a Borg.

Anyway to answer the question XC made a mod called SFC Hardcore that removed many of these imbalanced ships. 

I miss Frey and Stoney when they used to come on.  When they hosted they made sure the games were balanced.

[Corbomite]

It (the STL) can do close to 100 points at range 6 with its Mauler alone; after its raped you with 4 more Disr and 4 more ESg plus 10 PH 1's...

The STL only has 6 PH-1's, but you are right ; it is quite a bargain.

The Tugs are one of the classes I would rework completely. My first inclination would be to choose one good one for each race and leave it at that. My second would be to class them based on their role. In any case, a simple BPV balancing adjustment may just be in order. Many ships are worth more than the sum of their parts as a quick scan of the Balance column in the shiplist will show. Many new ships have been added with no adjustments for their combat effectiveness. The ISC CCZ isn't really worth 229 on paper, but I doubt you'll find anyone that says it is too expensive for the ship you get.

[FPF-DieHard]

 . . . That Lyran STL can fly solo without much fear from most any ship in that BPV range.  It can do close to 100 points at range 6 with its Mauler alone; after its raped you with 4 more Disr and 4 more ESg plus 10 PH 1's there's a good chance your ship blows up on the first pass unless your a Gorn or HAHA a Borg.

One thing that I always found interesting comparing Modern D2 to GSA play was this ship.  The STL dominates it's weight-class in GSA whereas in D2, limited-dreadnought modern rules, they don't.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

 . . . That Lyran STL can fly solo without much fear from most any ship in that BPV range.  It can do close to 100 points at range 6 with its Mauler alone; after its raped you with 4 more Disr and 4 more ESg plus 10 PH 1's there's a good chance your ship blows up on the first pass unless your a Gorn or HAHA a Borg.

One thing that I always found interesting comparing Modern D2 to GSA play was this ship.  The STL dominates it's weight-class in GSA whereas in D2, limited-dreadnought modern rules, they don't.

I havent played D2 in over 2 years not by choice, I switched to DSl wireless (2WIRE) and couldnt do it anymore.  I discovered a few months back that I can request a "static" address from AT&T free (so they say) and maybe finally get to play again.  So its been all GSA for me since then.

But I do remember playing Slave Girls 6 and I found cheese was always to be had if you worked it.  I remember many Klings were flying their drone boat  (D5D?) or whatever it was.  Hated that SHip.  I was a minor player on that one cause I had trouble getting used to having AI ships getting in the way.  For some reason my AI ships always seemed to suck.  Those clever smelly Klings would hang around behind the AI's then go after you...bah. 

But I too found a nice cheesey ship when I switched race to Hydran (I was usually Gorn). The Hydran MKE. 

Ahhh...what a sweet Kling killer that was. The more drones the better.  5 gattlings, use em like Fusion plus they hold for nuthin and provide drone proof defense...plus 6 Hornets.    Bye Bye D5D.  Used to ambush em on the the border as they approached another battle.  The MKE could take on a C7, probably lose but damage it enough to send it back to space dock which sometimes can be just as good as a win in the DVERSE.

My point is no matter how much you try there will always be an exploit or some ship some will think is imbalanced.  All those Kling drone boats running Drone Anchor tactics vice Old School Sabre Dancing was pretty surreal if you ask me.

[Corbomite]

The main reason for the STL being uber on GSA and not on the D2 is supplies. You can hang a lot longer with that ship with 25 spares and out maneuver it by getting it into an old style dogfighting tight turn. Once you get to the side of it you never let it get you into the Mauler arc again.

Tool and I pulled that trick once and I even managed to drop a NSM on the STL and only take enough damage to lose just one point of power (of course I had to sacrifice my PF's on those 4 ESG's to do it). The STL never got to use his Mauler once and was forced to disengage.

[Age]

The only wasy i could beat Z-CXA was to get in at very close range and had to turn off my heavy photons.I put the phaser to point defence with tractors the trick here is to get in as close as you can before the missles turn to mirvs.I tried with a R-XCA and had no luck with that or other plasma based ships only non plasma agian geting in at close range at 2 or 0.

The Z-XCA only had one load of drones to it.It might want to be relooked at and maybe some changes if the community agrees more b racks than U racks maybe. 

[FPF-DieHard]

The main reason for the STL being uber on GSA and not on the D2 is supplies. You can hang a lot longer with that ship with 25 spares and out maneuver it by getting it into an old style dogfighting tight turn. Once you get to the side of it you never let it get you into the Mauler arc again.

That and carriers always played more of a role in D2.   it makes sense, D2 is a war simulation and GSA is an arena.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

The main reason for the STL being uber on GSA and not on the D2 is supplies. You can hang a lot longer with that ship with 25 spares and out maneuver it by getting it into an old style dogfighting tight turn. Once you get to the side of it you never let it get you into the Mauler arc again.

That and carriers always played more of a role in D2.   it makes sense, D2 is a war simulation and GSA is an arena.

I'll address  Corby's post later but I agree. 

Actually in terms of imbalance I would rank Mauler ships as 3rd on my list of problems....(in "arena" play")

1.  Tugs.  Already explained.

2.  War Destroyers  (many have 6 transporter, great power curves, heavy weapons that exceed many Light Cruisers, too many fighters...how can TEN fighters fit on a destroyer hull?)

3.  Maulers.  Mostly in Team play.

4.  Escorts.  This problem (once cited in EAW) has almost gone away mostly due to the emergence of the other three classes of ships.

SHips that no one flies...

Monitors...

What are these things?  Slow and useless I would say.  Lol.  Prob not used in the Dverse that much either far as I know.  Any server ever feature or even offer monitors? Also they are badly misnamed...Mono mean one...ONE WEAPON...yet these ships are bristling with all kinds.  Lol.

Of the XSHIPS the

X Cruisers..imbalanced favoring direct fire races...the most balanced ship is the Kling XCA.  The Fed XCA should only have 4 Heavy Photes if we base our concept of "balance" with the Kling ships.

X Lights are actually very well done except for Hydran XDV...but it plays at higher BPV than most so really NOT.  An ADV 190-215 game can be a good BPV to play.

X Frigates are broken due to the Hydran Frigates having 4 G2's.

============================

Concerning Corbomites post....

Well in 1v1 most Mauler's are not a problem.  Only the STL can Solo and maybe the ROM FHF?  (I can't remember the Hull Designator but it has 2 S torps and the mauler HC).  The others are mostly death traps in 1 v 1 play.  I have defeated an STL 1v1 with the ROM KHK rather handily but I still took some damage.  The Gorn DNL/DFL is also well suited to battling the Lyran STL 1v1. The Hydran LGE is a great SHIP to run up against the STL and gnerally speaking all maulers have serious problems with fighters.

But in team play those tactics you mention are a throw of the dice.  A good mauler wing will not let you outmanuever his mauler.  They will chase with the wing in the lead and do a variation of the old Hydran "Grab and GO"...lead ship grabs you at whatever cost(either delivers a range 3 shot) while the follow on ship delivers the coup de grace range ZERO with fusion on suicide etc. Your wing either HETS around and tries to hit whatever ship you hit or you lose the match. 

But instead of a Hydran its a Mauler and instead of suicide overloads the weapon can't be destroyed, doesn't need to get below range 5 to deliver its maximum damage, and is far more resistant to ECm than fusion.

Or the Mauler with just hunker down for a time until it runs out of weasels (or if ROM even that doesn't matter) while the wing or wings circle about and use it as a base.   

In most 2v2 and even morso 3v3 Mauler generally dominate the tactics.  Ships of the line become "{Mauler escorts" and I do not think thats what was intended when they were designed. 

We try to limit 1 mauler per side and usually when one team uses it consistently the other team starts using fighters...etc.  Things start to escalate.

So yes in this context the Mauler is imblanced.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I hear you on the X-ships. Not only are they imbalanced, but there is a very small range of X-ships to choose to fly an advanced battle-- most of us probably aren't comfortable with every races' X, and some of the XCA variants are junky, or the XCAs themselves.

Compare this to, let's say a 115 late battle. If a player wanted to fly Klingon, they could fly an outfitted War Destroyer Leader, or an original D5. Many more options. In my opinion, the battles <201 bpv are always the most fun.

Rondo, do you mean the HDWs? Yeah, talk about cheap ;).

[Corbomite]

War Destroyers  (many have 6 transporter, great power curves, heavy weapons that exceed many Light Cruisers, too many fighters...how can TEN fighters fit on a destroyer hull?)

I've never found these to be a problem. At the BPV needed to get them you usually can pick up a good heavy cruiser and just out hull them. They come out pretty late too. They are all SFB designs that Firesoul ported in and are basically a destroyer with heavy cruiser firepower much like a BCH is a heavy cruiser with dred firepower. The first generation X frigates have the same firepower to weight issue and even some of the battle frigates are pretty mean. Still, some are pretty OTT. Cheap carriers for some races are always going to be a problem on GSA in early and mid eras.

Monitors.... What are these things?  Slow and useless I would say.  Lol.  Prob not used in the Dverse that much either far as I know.  Any server ever feature or even offer monitors? Also they are badly misnamed...Mono mean one...ONE WEAPON...yet these ships are bristling with all kinds.  Lol.

Monitors are cheap dreds that were used to guard Starbase construction sites and occasionally guard convoys etc... anything that required some good protection, but was motionless or didn't need to go fast.

The Starbase Construction and Convoy Raid/Escort missions would have to be rewritten to use them effectively.

We used a Monitor in a PBR match playing Fed. It did what we wanted it to do; soak up fire while the wing ships wrecked the other team. They didn't know what to make of it and saw just the weapons loadout. They had no idea it had no power lol!

X Frigates are broken due to the Hydran Frigates having 4 G2's.

That is so easily fixed I'm surprised you haven't just gone ahead and done it.





My main concern with releasing a "fixed" shiplist is the difference between the two areas of play that have to be balanced. What's good for the D2 usually isn't good for GSA type play. Except for Hydrans you never see anyone flying a carrier on GSA because fighters get too expensive and you practically end up with no ship to fly them in. I can fix that with the fighter order of battle I have used on my single player shiplist for years, but it was designed to make the AI more of a challenge, not give live players a boost up. Carriers would become very dangerous at the listed BPV and players could fly right out of the barn with good combat worthy fighters (not all the best types mind you - there is usually a mix of squads between Patrol/Interceptor and Heavy/Assault fighters). Plus it actually requires four shiplists to do it - one for each era. There are several other places where crossover problems occur if modification for a D2 environment makes certain BPV's uber on GSA.



As far as attacking a Mauler "base" strategy; try flying three 1v1's instead of a 2v2/3v3. What I mean by that is your team must try to break them up and force them onto your terms, with the best ship for the job assaulting the Mauler. Batteries die off pretty fast. If you can take the first hit (or better yet avoid it altogether) and get a good shot in their fire power will go down. Failing that fight fire with fire and fly the STL yourself! 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

X Frigates are broken due to the Hydran Frigates having 4 G2's.

That is so easily fixed I'm surprised you haven't just gone ahead and done it.

Some of these balance issues can easily be fixed. The thing I'm worried about is getting GSA to accept a new shiplist. I haven't tried playing without the 2552 patch and OP+ 4.0, but people say it just doesn't work. To get a new shiplist into GSA, we would need to somehow have the Gamespy people change things (Or maybe I'm wrong, and players need only have the same list, no matter what it is, to play).

[Corbomite]

X Frigates are broken due to the Hydran Frigates having 4 G2's.

That is so easily fixed I'm surprised you haven't just gone ahead and done it.

Some of these balance issues can easily be fixed. The thing I'm worried about is getting GSA to accept a new shiplist. I haven't tried playing without the 2552 patch and OP+ 4.0, but people say it just doesn't work. To get a new shiplist into GSA, we would need to somehow have the Gamespy people change things (Or maybe I'm wrong, and players need only have the same list, no matter what it is, to play).

GSA doesn't need to change a thing. If all players have the same list they all can play together just fine. You could make up all your own ships if you wanted.