Topic: X-ships in OP

[Tulwar]

Has anyone made a substantial rewrite of the shiplist to balance the X-ships?  I still can't get GameSpy to work through my router, but I can play on the Dynaverse.  Once a campaign goes into the advanced era, the game's balance is destroyed.

Some years ago, I had a great deal of fun modding my shiplist to try and even out the X-ships.  Not being able to play on-line, I could do single player, so I modded my game, and the types of X-ships grew and grew.  I don't think my XCB's were powerful enough to bust an XSB by themselves, but XDN's definitely could with care.  It was fun playing the game with all new ships, even if they were my own mods.  It's much more fun when somebody else does it, but then when you do it yourself, it exactly matches your requirements.

I basically made all cruisers comparable to the Federation XCA, and gave various weapons to races that did not use them in the stock list.  It really became fun when I weakened destroyers and added light cruisers.  I came to the limits of the game when I added X-dreadnaughts.

I started with Firesoul's OP+.  I needed models, and Firesoul didn't use a lot of the stock models so I could resize them to fit various roles.  It worked well on my computer, but was hideously complicated.  I experimented with many models and found I could not add them to the ship size file.  I had to discard many models I found due to size alone.

I turned my game into a mess, but hey, it's my game.  I don't play as much as I used to, but I miss that shiplist.  If anyone were interested I would be willing to remake it, but it would be so much easier if I could download something somebody else put in a nice, convenient package.

[Don Karnage]

you want what?

someone to fix the specs for the ship list so the X-ships will not be too more powerful that ordinary ship?

or is it the mod?

[Tulwar]

The X-ships are not balanced.  A fully equipped Z-XCA can kill anything.  An L-XCA should have enough defenses to have a chance against it.  Instead, it has less ESGs than a L-BCH, and the ESG Lance can hardly be used outside tractor range.  Only the Fed and Hydran XCAs have nearly enough defensive firepower to come close to standing up to the Mirak.  The Federation Hvy Photon turns out to be the most potent weapon after the MRV.  The Hvy Disruptor is a joke by comparison.  I just wanted to know if there was a common mod that made the X-ships comparible to each other in firepower an defenses.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

You said earlier in your post that you were trying to play on Gamespy (Yeah, it's a witch to get working). In GSA, droners can stock up on 4 reloads of slow drones for no added bpv cost. The medium drones, though, cost a bunch more, and fast drones are hideously expensive. Especially if you want more than 1 reload.

Because of this, most fights involving X-ships use speed 16.0 drones, unless the bpv is really up there. Personally, I think it's a little unfair to drone users because the drones don't really catch up to their targets. Maybe in advanced era on Gamespy, medium speed drones should be free.

[FPF-DieHard]

For the Slave Girls D2 mod, I find the X-ships to be incredibly balanced.   PH-X are replaced with PH1, Direct-fire wepons that could fast-load in SFB get a 50% increase, no second generation ships at all.   They play nice with the rest of the late era ships with the fleeting rules in place.

Then again, I'm biased as I made the mod

[Age]

For the Slave Girls D2 mod, I find the X-ships to be incredibly balanced.   PH-X are replaced with PH1, Direct-fire wepons that could fast-load in SFB get a 50% increase, no second generation ships at all.   They play nice with the rest of the late era ships with the fleeting rules in place.

Then again, I'm biased as I made the mod

The only thing is I don't like the way you do the photons on the F-CX as I would do 2x3 instead of 3x3.It is what is like on your BCH.I would have 2 tubes fire three photons each not 3 tubes.

X Phasers in single player game can be fun but in a multilayer game kind of imba.

[Tulwar]

What really got me was the lack of weapondry on the Romulan ships, and the lack of anti-missle defences on every race but the Federation and maybe the Hydrans.  What is 2 Plas X's, 2 Plas G's, and 2 Plas F's againt 6 Hvy Photons, then 8 PX's vs. 12 PX's?  I've gone ahead and started remaking my own shiplist.  At least, I don't have to test so many models for size.  It turns out pretty easy with ship edit, once you've calculated a measure for weapon weights.  Of course, the Romulans have to have weaker ships to make up for the cloak, but not that weak!

It seems Taldren wanted to get the new weapons into the game, and let us figure out how to make them work.  Never could figure out what great advantage the ESGL has over the regular ESG.  It just doesn't seem right the Lyran Navy being so suseptable to missle fire.

[Age]

What really got me was the lack of weapondry on the Romulan ships, and the lack of anti-missle defences on every race but the Federation and maybe the Hydrans.  What is 2 Plas X's, 2 Plas G's, and 2 Plas F's againt 6 Hvy Photons, then 8 PX's vs. 12 PX's?  I've gone ahead and started remaking my own shiplist.  At least, I don't have to test so many models for size.  It turns out pretty easy with ship edit, once you've calculated a measure for weapon weights.  Of course, the Romulans have to have weaker ships to make up for the cloak, but not that weak!

It seems Taldren wanted to get the new weapons into the game, and let us figure out how to make them work.  Never could figure out what great advantage the ESGL has over the regular ESG.  It just doesn't seem right the Lyran Navy being so suseptable to missle fire.

I forget what all the Romulan advanced era does but they don't have the weaker hulls the Klingons do for speed and maneuverability.The Federation is fine when it come to anti missile defence as the drone racks are the amd racks as well or add anti drone defence.When the Federation runs out of adds and you can turn it off the phasers are enough to cover you.You should or close to it finished off your target.   

[Tulwar]

After getting my buttocks kicked on the Dyna flying X-ships, I really was dismayed that I was so easily defeated by Federation and Mirak ships.  There was absolutely nothing I could do to compete.  I managed to do some internals to a Mirak while flying Klingon, but one can do little on a phaser boat against a missile boat that delivers 22 targets a turn. That's 28 with an SP!  The MRVs do not lose track when a Romulan cloaks, and 8 phaser X plus 2 PGs could only take out 16.  Plas D launchers are exhausted very quickly.  No chance, unless the Mirak player falls asleep.  At least a Federation player can count on doing 24 points to a shield at long range with hvy photons.

Except for the Klingon, all the 2nd gen coalition X-ships are pretty weak.  The Klingon is just a little light on the AMD vs Mirak, but otherwise fairly good.  Unlike a hvy photon, which can be held for a small energy cost, disruptors and hvy disruptors must be fed contiguously.  The energy advantage enjoyed by disruptor races becomes a disadvantage when scaled up.  The reason that the Klingon's do not receive six hvy disruptors compaired to the Federation's six hvy photons is that there is no way to maintain that energy output.  The adaption made to Firesoul's shiplist  for my shiplist is as follows:

Fed CA, simply change PG arcs to LS and RS

Klingon CA, add 1 ADD, 1 PG; Change PG arc to ALL

These are the only two ships that do need a radical make-over.

This still gives the federation a small  advantage in hvy weapons, but, at least, a Mirak captain would have to approach the Klingon much more carefully.  As far as the Romulans go, their ship needed a complete weapons over-haul just to be in the same ball-park with the other races.

What surprises me is how quickly I've completed the make-over for my shipslist.  Being snowed in for a week-end gave me a lot of time with little to do.  I only have 3 2nd gen X dreadnaughts to do before I can actually play with this shiplist.  I'll probably get back to it Sunday.

[Corbomite]

I may give it a go someday when I get some time. I re-did some of the Mirak X Frigates and Destroyers when Dave Ferrell was doing his last patching efforts for Taldren and they turned out pretty well (so if you hate them, you have me to thank).

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I think most of us passionately hate the X-ships. I don't see why a lot of people always host the "300 advanced" battles, they get old so quickly, but to each his own.

Speaking of MIRV's, have you noticed the "Mirv shadows?" Whenever someone shoots a MIRV at me, it seems to shoot a sort of blank missile that is invisible. It doesn't do any damage, but it does trigger point defence, and is automatically targeted with the [space] key, and sort of stays on top of your ship unless you shoot it down. So when you have about 22 missiles flying toward you, there's this little annoying shadow that distracts you while the other missiles hit. I think it's what's left of the MIRV missile before it popped. Very annoying.

[marstone]

I think most of us passionately hate the X-ships. I don't see why a lot of people always host the "300 advanced" battles, they get old so quickly, but to each his own.

Speaking of MIRV's, have you noticed the "Mirv shadows?" Whenever someone shoots a MIRV at me, it seems to shoot a sort of blank missile that is invisible. It doesn't do any damage, but it does trigger point defence, and is automatically targeted with the [space] key, and sort of stays on top of your ship unless you shoot it down. So when you have about 22 missiles flying toward you, there's this little annoying shadow that distracts you while the other missiles hit. I think it's what's left of the MIRV missile before it popped. Very annoying.

In SFB the carrier drone that barfs out the little  one can continue on toward the target and impact (does no damage, but would help suck down damage from an ESG).  Not sure what they are doing with it in SFC.  A fun tactic in SFB was to have  two space Mirv with only a single space Mirv pack in the front and a normal explosive in second.  It would launch the three little ones and continue on also, if not identified, it might be mistaken for just an empty hull until, blam, it explodes on you.

[Age]

After getting my buttocks kicked on the Dyna flying X-ships, I really was dismayed that I was so easily defeated by Federation and Mirak ships.  There was absolutely nothing I could do to compete.  I managed to do some internals to a Mirak while flying Klingon, but one can do little on a phaser boat against a missile boat that delivers 22 targets a turn. That's 28 with an SP!  The MRVs do not lose track when a Romulan cloaks, and 8 phaser X plus 2 PGs could only take out 16.  Plas D launchers are exhausted very quickly.  No chance, unless the Mirak player falls asleep.  At least a Federation player can count on doing 24 points to a shield at long range with hvy photons.

Except for the Klingon, all the 2nd gen coalition X-ships are pretty weak.  The Klingon is just a little light on the AMD vs Mirak, but otherwise fairly good.  Unlike a hvy photon, which can be held for a small energy cost, disruptors and hvy disruptors must be fed contiguously.  The energy advantage enjoyed by disruptor races becomes a disadvantage when scaled up.  The reason that the Klingon's do not receive six hvy disruptors compaired to the Federation's six hvy photons is that there is no way to maintain that energy output.  The adaption made to Firesoul's shiplist  for my shiplist is as follows:

Fed CA, simply change PG arcs to LS and RS

Klingon CA, add 1 ADD, 1 PG; Change PG arc to ALL

These are the only two ships that do need a radical make-over.

This still gives the federation a small  advantage in hvy weapons, but, at least, a Mirak captain would have to approach the Klingon much more carefully.  As far as the Romulans go, their ship needed a complete weapons over-haul just to be in the same ball-park with the other races.

What surprises me is how quickly I've completed the make-over for my shipslist.  Being snowed in for a week-end gave me a lot of time with little to do.  I only have 3 2nd gen X dreadnaughts to do before I can actually play with this shiplist.  I'll probably get back to it Sunday.

FireSoul does not make changes as to to what the community wants unless there are corrections that need to be made.

[Tulwar]

Firesoul introduced a lot of SFB ships to the game.  People hate X ship because they are not SFB.  These alone were good reasons for Firesoul to avoid altering them in OP+.  The fact that so many people hate the X-ships is probably a good reason to simply take them out of the shiplist all together.

When OP came out, I was quite excited about flying an X-ship.  At the time, I was flying Lyran and Romulan.  I was so disappointed.  There's no point in repeating what I said in earlier posts.

Corbomite takes credit (or blame) for the Mirak frigates and destroyers.  Those ships look pretty reasonable.  I'd like to know the culprit responsible for the Hvy Cruisers!

I still want to drive a really nasty, evil, mean, and destructive Romulan XCA.  I was hoping that someone had already rewritten the shiplist for the X-Ships, but as soon as I started the topic, it became apparent that nobody has, or at least nothing worth hosting.  I decided that I'm on my own.

I've gone ahead and rewritten my shiplist.  Deciding on a mathematical relationship between weapons made the whole thing easy.  Of course, one has to remember to not allow Ship Edit to put a fraction in the crew total.  To make it interesting enough for single player, I added a lot of ships.

[Corbomite]

Corbomite takes credit (or blame) for the Mirak frigates and destroyers.  Those ships look pretty reasonable.  I'd like to know the culprit responsible for the Hvy Cruisers!

Taldren all the way... sort of.

At the time when Dave was doing us a huge favor by working on OP patching when his company officially had to abandon the job, many players were complaining about just what you are now; X Ships are not even balanced with each other let alone the rest of the game.

Dave didn't have the time (or inclination I suspect) to rework and test a bunch of new designs, so he left it to the player base to come out with their estimations of a balanced X shiplist. He would choose the ones that looked best.

At that time X Ships were removed from play on the Dyna, so that crowd couldn't have cared less about it, and most people hadn't discovered the uber nature of the G2 abomination yet (we hadn't gotten the weapons charts for X weapons at that point), so the main thrust of ire was towards the uber Mirak MIRV X Frigates and Destroyers that cost a pittance and were able to overwhelm a Dred (or just about anything else for that matter) with fast missiles at 300 - 350 points on GSA. One of the frigates I reworked had 4 MIRV racks! 

The heavy cruisers were left alone because at 300 - 350 on GSA you can't even afford a full load of medium speed missiles, let alone fast ones, and it was felt that reworking wasn't needed for them as they had less power and less improved DF weapons than the other races got in the upgrades. GSA games at 1000 points rarely happen so the chances of a Mirak X Heavy getting better load outs was almost zero. They would have been fighting fully loaded BB's at that point so it wasn't really any advantage. If they did manage to catch and tractor another X heavy perpetually running at speed 31 with power to charge enough weapons to slowly cripple the Mirak, they would need all that missile fire to win.

My instincts seemed to be correct as no one has ever complained about the Mirak X Ships, either for or against, again until now and it has been about six years. Most players, myself included, have realized that the G2 phaser is the cheesiest thing ever designed for this game and restrictions on ships using more than two of them are still used I believe.

[marstone]

People hate X ship because they are not SFB.

By this do you mean people hate X ships because they are not the ones in SFB?  I have never looked at  the stats of the dynaverse X ships, I never like to fly X ships when I played SFB, so that carried over.  But from what I have seen of the way X ships are done, it would need a reworking from the ground up to make them work right.

Sad part is I own darn near everything of the SFB universe, but I sadly lack the X-ship parts.  Maybe I will have to acquire those publications so I can look at it closer.

[Tulwar]

Since SFB X-weapons are not available in SFC OP, trying to make SFB X-ships is just not possible.  I haven't played X-ships online much at all.  In fact, I haven't played SFC much in the past three years, at all.  Once I loaded SFC OP on this computer and figured out how to get through my router, I got on the Dyna.  I knew the X-ship weren't right a long time ago, but when I started going PvP, one on one, I could barely scratch a fully loaded Mirak XCA with my Klink XCA, and flying Romulan....  Well, I might as well have been flying a freighter.  The cloak has no effect on MRVs, except, maybe to deny the enemy the pleasure of watching you die.

Taldren did not have time to straighten out the X-ships.  I am convinced the only reason they made SFC OP was because they wanted to release all the material they created for GAW when Activision acquired the licenses Taldren needed to continue.  I don't blame Taldren in the least for problems with OP.  I'm just glad they made it at all.

As far as the X-ships go, there is material to make new, more powerful ships for SFC.  Of course, they shouldn't appeal to an SFB purist, but they do add more possiblities to the game.

[marstone]

As far as the X-ships go, there is material to make new, more powerful ships for SFC.  Of course, they shouldn't appeal to an SFB purist, but they do add more possiblities to the game.

Well, as one of those SFB purists, I don't mind ships made in "the spirit of the game" style.  In other words, don't just slap as much as you can on a hull and call it a ship.  I think you can sit down and design many ships that even a "purist" like myself would like.  The harder part about designing new ships is to have them balance point wise with the rest of the ships in the game.  I like to lean back on the tried and true SFB ships as they have had 30 years of balancing built into them.

[Corbomite]

...The cloak has no effect on MRVs...

The cloak is ineffective against the MIRV submunitions (a bug), but it does work against the parent vehicle. So if you can cloak before they blossom you can get rid of them.

If I do feel like re-doing the shiplist I will not stop at the X-Ships. There are many issues with balance due to the fact ships were ported from SFB and the systems/game structure that they were created under were not. Many ships only work well in a fleet environment that we just can't enjoy in SFC. Some races are very dependent on it for some ship classes, i.e. those ships "wallow like a garbage scow against a warp driven starship" to quote Scotty.

My approach would be one of logical progression of technology, using the SFB timeline for reference, but not as a bible. The ships that are "fish out of water" would be dropped if not feasible and modified to operate more on their own if they are feasible, without making them too strong or making them into a clone of another ship. I think I still have a list of things that players have pointed out over the years. I'll have to look for it.

[Age]

What ships do you have in Mind Corbomite for this.

The ships that are "fish out of water" would be dropped if not feasible and modified to operate more on their own if they are feasible,

I wouldn't mind seeing some Fed CAs 2 more points in power and BCHs with 1 to 3 more points in power.

[Tulwar]

Actually the lack of power is the only thing that keeps the Feds from being uber-ships.  I couldn't imagine trying to fight against the Feds if they could get close enough to use their photons effectively.  As it is, the Feds are over-armed because the G-Racks are simply A-Racks, and the Feds get free AMDs.  In SFB, a Federation starship had turn w/o AMD when firing missiles.  It would take a serious patch to make the G-Racks work the way they are supposed to.  After what happened to the I-torps in SFC EAW's final patch, I would hesitate before letting anyone mod a correction.

Correcting the entire shiplist is an ambitious concept.  There are only about 100, maybe a couple less, 2nd Generation X-ships in the entire game.  There are well over 2300 lines in the stock shiplist and many, many more in Firesoul's.  I think Firesoul's shiplist is the defacto standard.  It's much more fun than stock, anyway.

I now have a spare computer and high speed internet access.  I've always wanted to run a SFC server.  I just wounder how many people would be interested in giving my shiplist a try.

I've created a table for empires and weapon weights to create better balanced X-Ships:

The following is my ideal table for assigning weapons to 2nd Generation Advanced Hvy Cruisers:

EMPIRE                           Phasers   /    Hvy Weapons       Total

Federation                          16                 15                   31
Gorn                                  16                 15                   31
Hydran                               16                 14                   30
ISC                                    14                 16                   30
Klingon                               14                 16                   30
Lyran                                 15                 16                   31
Mirak                                  16                 14                   30
Romulan                             17                 11                   28


General Weapon Weight Table:

Photon      1
hvy photon     2
disruptor                   1
hvy dis      2

ph 1      0.75
ph 2      0.5
ph 3      0.25
Ph x      1
ph g      1
ph g2      2
ph a      0.5
ph b      0.5

plas f      1
plas g      1.5
plas s      2
plas r      3.3
plas x      2.5
plas e      2.25
ppd      2

drn a      0.5
drn b      0.75
drn c      1
drn m      1.75
add 6      negligible
add 12      0.25

hb      1.3
fg      1
esg      1.5

Of course some ships need to be fudged ever so slightly to fit these parameters, but this is very similar to the automatic BPV adjustment in Ship Edit.  I also make a few minor adjustments to BPV.

By this calculation table, the stock Rom XCA has only 21 weapons, making it miserably under-armed compared to XCA's of other empires.  The stock Romulan XCB, however, is pretty close to reasonable with a weight of (rounded to the nearest) 26.

I've wasted a month on this, and reached a finishing point.  Well, I guess there's play-testing.  Now, to get my .mct and .scr files in order.  I may have to reinstall the game.  No telling what all I nerfed up trying to get the EAW campaigns for OP with Nuclear Wessels, and Tracy G's missions.  They might have some odious components that I didn't anticipate.

[marstone]

well, point wise, the fed's could have the bpv increaded by 1 or 2 for each add added and turn the g racks back into a's. 

[marstone]

...The cloak has no effect on MRVs...

The cloak is ineffective against the MIRV submunitions (a bug), but it does work against the parent vehicle. So if you can cloak before they blossom you can get rid of them.

Actually not a bug, the submunitions of a MIRV (MW in SFB) are not effected by a cloak, they track the warp signature of the ship they target.  The bug with MIRV's is that the submunition is only suppose to have a range of 8 or 12 (forget, been ten years plus).  So the bus vehicle is suppose to fly longer so a cloak would have more of a chance to work as the drone would have to be close for the submunitions to hit (I think it is range 12 of lock on and 8 hexes of movement, could look it up, but truely isn't that important ATT).

[Corbomite]

...The cloak has no effect on MRVs...

The cloak is ineffective against the MIRV submunitions (a bug), but it does work against the parent vehicle. So if you can cloak before they blossom you can get rid of them.

Actually not a bug, the submunitions of a MIRV (MW in SFB) are not effected by a cloak, they track the warp signature of the ship they target.  The bug with MIRV's is that the submunition is only suppose to have a range of 8 or 12 (forget, been ten years plus).  So the bus vehicle is suppose to fly longer so a cloak would have more of a chance to work as the drone would have to be close for the submunitions to hit (I think it is range 12 of lock on and 8 hexes of movement, could look it up, but truely isn't that important ATT).

Well that's one way to look at it. Another is that since there is no ATG in SFC and the MIRV's don't behave as in SFB anyway, its a bug. I prefer the latter.


And Age: Fed ships are the baseline for all other races in the game. They pretty much already have all they need with better shield regeneration, magic photons and free AMD racks. I'm sure some could use a few tweaks, but certainly not any of their myriad BCH's.

[FPF-DieHard]

Fed ships don't need nuttin! 

They are the race that is the least screwed out against everyone else.   people think the ISC are OTT, trying taking on Hydrans in mid with PBR fleetig rules.

Back on topic, the Taldren X-ships suck.   For the Slave Girls servers we simply removed them.

[Age]

I was thinking of Car+,Car+R,CC+,CCR.BCJ,BCF and BCG.Those are the only one I guess as Diehard say the don't need nuthing.

[Corbomite]

...The cloak has no effect on MRVs...

The cloak is ineffective against the MIRV submunitions (a bug), but it does work against the parent vehicle. So if you can cloak before they blossom you can get rid of them.

Actually not a bug, the submunitions of a MIRV (MW in SFB) are not effected by a cloak, they track the warp signature of the ship they target.  The bug with MIRV's is that the submunition is only suppose to have a range of 8 or 12 (forget, been ten years plus).  So the bus vehicle is suppose to fly longer so a cloak would have more of a chance to work as the drone would have to be close for the submunitions to hit (I think it is range 12 of lock on and 8 hexes of movement, could look it up, but truely isn't that important ATT).

Well that's one way to look at it. Another is that since there is no ATG in SFC and the MIRV's don't behave as in SFB anyway, its a bug. I prefer the latter.

Ok I just re-read the rules on Energy Seeking Type VI Dogfight Drones. Under most conditions they do retain lock on, or have a couple of chances to retain lock on. Since MIRV submunitions and Fighter Drones are the same thing, i.e. Type VI Dogfight Drones, and the cloak in SFC nerfs fighter missiles, but not MIRV submunitions, one of those two instances is a bug.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Ummm I still play on Gspy all the time.  Not much of us left but enough for some games usually pretty good. 

Most games are Late No X but we do fly the X ships.  The most "balanced"  (against each other) X ships are the Light Cruisers. 

Of the X weaponry the MIRVS and G2's are close to broken.  In particular the G2 phaser, which started off broken was broken again when they "fixed" it.  Now it hits like a Phaser 4 with practically no energy requirements.  Duh.  They get restricted as a matter of honor among the pilots unless they are ok'd by the host.   

MIRVs start coming "into their own" at much higher BPV's than most HC ADV cruiser battles are fought.  The Mirak cruiser are pretty cheap and can run mid speed drones and you sometimes see the Mirak XCA playing in a 355 game with 2 loads of mid speed drones (144) but most players prefer to play the much more battle worthy Klingon XCA (sorta like a C7 on steroids) in those kinds of games.

At 380 some of the battleships start coming onto play.  In fact its not uncommon to see someone flying a FED BB much lower.  A BB can still pretty much knock the SWAK out of an X Ship ADV Cruiser if flown properly.

X ships aren't the beef on GSPY.  If you know the pitfalls you can still have good battles.  The real problem is Tugs.  Tugs are ridiculous; off the charts far as I'm concerned.  While many are slow moving plasma bait some of them can go speed 29 with power to spare (if you shut down some things until later) like the Mirak TBT at 170 you get in EARLY Era with 7 drones, 6 disr and 7 transporters.  Then there's the Mirak CBT at 185 in mid era with 8 DISR, 7 drones, 7 transporters, etc capable of taking on a C7 in Late.  The Klings and Lyrans have similar models but not quite as good.  Then the ROMS have the KRTSR they can get in mid with 50 power at 153 with 4 F torps 1 plasma D 7 transporters, just set your speed to 29, run your shift to 2 and your tractor to 4 and start chasing everyone all over the map.  Good skill.         Not.

There are also a few Maulers and War Destroyers that are pretty nasty and imbalanced like the Lyran STL or Hydran LNHV2 with 10 fighters which can play 10 Hornet II at 156 or Hornet III at 176.  The ROM SPF can be had in Mid for 120 and in team play can do,minate a game.  Then the Klings have a few that can charge their Mauler at 25-26 including a DM model, but at least its a true Mauler with few other weapons, defensive systems and such.  That Lyran STL can fly solo without much fear from most any ship in that BPV range.  It can do close to 100 points at range 6 with its Mauler alone; after its raped you with 4 more Disr and 4 more ESg plus 10 PH 1's there's a good chance your ship blows up on the first pass unless your a Gorn or HAHA a Borg.

Anyway to answer the question XC made a mod called SFC Hardcore that removed many of these imbalanced ships. 

I miss Frey and Stoney when they used to come on.  When they hosted they made sure the games were balanced.

[Corbomite]

It (the STL) can do close to 100 points at range 6 with its Mauler alone; after its raped you with 4 more Disr and 4 more ESg plus 10 PH 1's...

The STL only has 6 PH-1's, but you are right ; it is quite a bargain.

The Tugs are one of the classes I would rework completely. My first inclination would be to choose one good one for each race and leave it at that. My second would be to class them based on their role. In any case, a simple BPV balancing adjustment may just be in order. Many ships are worth more than the sum of their parts as a quick scan of the Balance column in the shiplist will show. Many new ships have been added with no adjustments for their combat effectiveness. The ISC CCZ isn't really worth 229 on paper, but I doubt you'll find anyone that says it is too expensive for the ship you get.

[FPF-DieHard]

 . . . That Lyran STL can fly solo without much fear from most any ship in that BPV range.  It can do close to 100 points at range 6 with its Mauler alone; after its raped you with 4 more Disr and 4 more ESg plus 10 PH 1's there's a good chance your ship blows up on the first pass unless your a Gorn or HAHA a Borg.

One thing that I always found interesting comparing Modern D2 to GSA play was this ship.  The STL dominates it's weight-class in GSA whereas in D2, limited-dreadnought modern rules, they don't.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

 . . . That Lyran STL can fly solo without much fear from most any ship in that BPV range.  It can do close to 100 points at range 6 with its Mauler alone; after its raped you with 4 more Disr and 4 more ESg plus 10 PH 1's there's a good chance your ship blows up on the first pass unless your a Gorn or HAHA a Borg.

One thing that I always found interesting comparing Modern D2 to GSA play was this ship.  The STL dominates it's weight-class in GSA whereas in D2, limited-dreadnought modern rules, they don't.

I havent played D2 in over 2 years not by choice, I switched to DSl wireless (2WIRE) and couldnt do it anymore.  I discovered a few months back that I can request a "static" address from AT&T free (so they say) and maybe finally get to play again.  So its been all GSA for me since then.

But I do remember playing Slave Girls 6 and I found cheese was always to be had if you worked it.  I remember many Klings were flying their drone boat  (D5D?) or whatever it was.  Hated that SHip.  I was a minor player on that one cause I had trouble getting used to having AI ships getting in the way.  For some reason my AI ships always seemed to suck.  Those clever smelly Klings would hang around behind the AI's then go after you...bah. 

But I too found a nice cheesey ship when I switched race to Hydran (I was usually Gorn). The Hydran MKE. 

Ahhh...what a sweet Kling killer that was. The more drones the better.  5 gattlings, use em like Fusion plus they hold for nuthin and provide drone proof defense...plus 6 Hornets.    Bye Bye D5D.  Used to ambush em on the the border as they approached another battle.  The MKE could take on a C7, probably lose but damage it enough to send it back to space dock which sometimes can be just as good as a win in the DVERSE.

My point is no matter how much you try there will always be an exploit or some ship some will think is imbalanced.  All those Kling drone boats running Drone Anchor tactics vice Old School Sabre Dancing was pretty surreal if you ask me.

[Corbomite]

The main reason for the STL being uber on GSA and not on the D2 is supplies. You can hang a lot longer with that ship with 25 spares and out maneuver it by getting it into an old style dogfighting tight turn. Once you get to the side of it you never let it get you into the Mauler arc again.

Tool and I pulled that trick once and I even managed to drop a NSM on the STL and only take enough damage to lose just one point of power (of course I had to sacrifice my PF's on those 4 ESG's to do it). The STL never got to use his Mauler once and was forced to disengage.

[Age]

The only wasy i could beat Z-CXA was to get in at very close range and had to turn off my heavy photons.I put the phaser to point defence with tractors the trick here is to get in as close as you can before the missles turn to mirvs.I tried with a R-XCA and had no luck with that or other plasma based ships only non plasma agian geting in at close range at 2 or 0.

The Z-XCA only had one load of drones to it.It might want to be relooked at and maybe some changes if the community agrees more b racks than U racks maybe. 

[FPF-DieHard]

The main reason for the STL being uber on GSA and not on the D2 is supplies. You can hang a lot longer with that ship with 25 spares and out maneuver it by getting it into an old style dogfighting tight turn. Once you get to the side of it you never let it get you into the Mauler arc again.

That and carriers always played more of a role in D2.   it makes sense, D2 is a war simulation and GSA is an arena.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

The main reason for the STL being uber on GSA and not on the D2 is supplies. You can hang a lot longer with that ship with 25 spares and out maneuver it by getting it into an old style dogfighting tight turn. Once you get to the side of it you never let it get you into the Mauler arc again.

That and carriers always played more of a role in D2.   it makes sense, D2 is a war simulation and GSA is an arena.

I'll address  Corby's post later but I agree. 

Actually in terms of imbalance I would rank Mauler ships as 3rd on my list of problems....(in "arena" play")

1.  Tugs.  Already explained.

2.  War Destroyers  (many have 6 transporter, great power curves, heavy weapons that exceed many Light Cruisers, too many fighters...how can TEN fighters fit on a destroyer hull?)

3.  Maulers.  Mostly in Team play.

4.  Escorts.  This problem (once cited in EAW) has almost gone away mostly due to the emergence of the other three classes of ships.

SHips that no one flies...

Monitors...

What are these things?  Slow and useless I would say.  Lol.  Prob not used in the Dverse that much either far as I know.  Any server ever feature or even offer monitors? Also they are badly misnamed...Mono mean one...ONE WEAPON...yet these ships are bristling with all kinds.  Lol.

Of the XSHIPS the

X Cruisers..imbalanced favoring direct fire races...the most balanced ship is the Kling XCA.  The Fed XCA should only have 4 Heavy Photes if we base our concept of "balance" with the Kling ships.

X Lights are actually very well done except for Hydran XDV...but it plays at higher BPV than most so really NOT.  An ADV 190-215 game can be a good BPV to play.

X Frigates are broken due to the Hydran Frigates having 4 G2's.

============================

Concerning Corbomites post....

Well in 1v1 most Mauler's are not a problem.  Only the STL can Solo and maybe the ROM FHF?  (I can't remember the Hull Designator but it has 2 S torps and the mauler HC).  The others are mostly death traps in 1 v 1 play.  I have defeated an STL 1v1 with the ROM KHK rather handily but I still took some damage.  The Gorn DNL/DFL is also well suited to battling the Lyran STL 1v1. The Hydran LGE is a great SHIP to run up against the STL and gnerally speaking all maulers have serious problems with fighters.

But in team play those tactics you mention are a throw of the dice.  A good mauler wing will not let you outmanuever his mauler.  They will chase with the wing in the lead and do a variation of the old Hydran "Grab and GO"...lead ship grabs you at whatever cost(either delivers a range 3 shot) while the follow on ship delivers the coup de grace range ZERO with fusion on suicide etc. Your wing either HETS around and tries to hit whatever ship you hit or you lose the match. 

But instead of a Hydran its a Mauler and instead of suicide overloads the weapon can't be destroyed, doesn't need to get below range 5 to deliver its maximum damage, and is far more resistant to ECm than fusion.

Or the Mauler with just hunker down for a time until it runs out of weasels (or if ROM even that doesn't matter) while the wing or wings circle about and use it as a base.   

In most 2v2 and even morso 3v3 Mauler generally dominate the tactics.  Ships of the line become "{Mauler escorts" and I do not think thats what was intended when they were designed. 

We try to limit 1 mauler per side and usually when one team uses it consistently the other team starts using fighters...etc.  Things start to escalate.

So yes in this context the Mauler is imblanced.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I hear you on the X-ships. Not only are they imbalanced, but there is a very small range of X-ships to choose to fly an advanced battle-- most of us probably aren't comfortable with every races' X, and some of the XCA variants are junky, or the XCAs themselves.

Compare this to, let's say a 115 late battle. If a player wanted to fly Klingon, they could fly an outfitted War Destroyer Leader, or an original D5. Many more options. In my opinion, the battles <201 bpv are always the most fun.

Rondo, do you mean the HDWs? Yeah, talk about cheap ;).

[Corbomite]

War Destroyers  (many have 6 transporter, great power curves, heavy weapons that exceed many Light Cruisers, too many fighters...how can TEN fighters fit on a destroyer hull?)

I've never found these to be a problem. At the BPV needed to get them you usually can pick up a good heavy cruiser and just out hull them. They come out pretty late too. They are all SFB designs that Firesoul ported in and are basically a destroyer with heavy cruiser firepower much like a BCH is a heavy cruiser with dred firepower. The first generation X frigates have the same firepower to weight issue and even some of the battle frigates are pretty mean. Still, some are pretty OTT. Cheap carriers for some races are always going to be a problem on GSA in early and mid eras.

Monitors.... What are these things?  Slow and useless I would say.  Lol.  Prob not used in the Dverse that much either far as I know.  Any server ever feature or even offer monitors? Also they are badly misnamed...Mono mean one...ONE WEAPON...yet these ships are bristling with all kinds.  Lol.

Monitors are cheap dreds that were used to guard Starbase construction sites and occasionally guard convoys etc... anything that required some good protection, but was motionless or didn't need to go fast.

The Starbase Construction and Convoy Raid/Escort missions would have to be rewritten to use them effectively.

We used a Monitor in a PBR match playing Fed. It did what we wanted it to do; soak up fire while the wing ships wrecked the other team. They didn't know what to make of it and saw just the weapons loadout. They had no idea it had no power lol!

X Frigates are broken due to the Hydran Frigates having 4 G2's.

That is so easily fixed I'm surprised you haven't just gone ahead and done it.





My main concern with releasing a "fixed" shiplist is the difference between the two areas of play that have to be balanced. What's good for the D2 usually isn't good for GSA type play. Except for Hydrans you never see anyone flying a carrier on GSA because fighters get too expensive and you practically end up with no ship to fly them in. I can fix that with the fighter order of battle I have used on my single player shiplist for years, but it was designed to make the AI more of a challenge, not give live players a boost up. Carriers would become very dangerous at the listed BPV and players could fly right out of the barn with good combat worthy fighters (not all the best types mind you - there is usually a mix of squads between Patrol/Interceptor and Heavy/Assault fighters). Plus it actually requires four shiplists to do it - one for each era. There are several other places where crossover problems occur if modification for a D2 environment makes certain BPV's uber on GSA.



As far as attacking a Mauler "base" strategy; try flying three 1v1's instead of a 2v2/3v3. What I mean by that is your team must try to break them up and force them onto your terms, with the best ship for the job assaulting the Mauler. Batteries die off pretty fast. If you can take the first hit (or better yet avoid it altogether) and get a good shot in their fire power will go down. Failing that fight fire with fire and fly the STL yourself! 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

X Frigates are broken due to the Hydran Frigates having 4 G2's.

That is so easily fixed I'm surprised you haven't just gone ahead and done it.

Some of these balance issues can easily be fixed. The thing I'm worried about is getting GSA to accept a new shiplist. I haven't tried playing without the 2552 patch and OP+ 4.0, but people say it just doesn't work. To get a new shiplist into GSA, we would need to somehow have the Gamespy people change things (Or maybe I'm wrong, and players need only have the same list, no matter what it is, to play).

[Corbomite]

X Frigates are broken due to the Hydran Frigates having 4 G2's.

That is so easily fixed I'm surprised you haven't just gone ahead and done it.

Some of these balance issues can easily be fixed. The thing I'm worried about is getting GSA to accept a new shiplist. I haven't tried playing without the 2552 patch and OP+ 4.0, but people say it just doesn't work. To get a new shiplist into GSA, we would need to somehow have the Gamespy people change things (Or maybe I'm wrong, and players need only have the same list, no matter what it is, to play).

GSA doesn't need to change a thing. If all players have the same list they all can play together just fine. You could make up all your own ships if you wanted.