Topic: The Rise and Fall of the Plasmatic Pulsar Device: An Analysis

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Well, I started this thread thinking it would be a rant against the ISC:
 

-I think the PPD as a weapon is very unbalanced. One day when I had too much time, I did the math and found out that at Range 15, the PPD does about 2.25 damage for every point of energy invested. Comparitively, the disruptor did 1 damage per point. Both of these figures have to-hit%, energy cost, and charging time accounted for. Also, it seems to have 4 chances to hit, so even a 2 defense shift doesn't help that much.

-If the ISC had these alone, it might be fair. But their plasmas are just about as good as Gorn or Romulans. The PPD is a good long range weapon, and a few times I have tried chasing down a PPD ship to close the range. The result: they just seem to go speed 31 and lob a Plasma-I at me every turn. Either die a quick death from chasing plasma torps, or loose all your shields to the PPD.

-The ISC make saber dancing races like Klingons and other disruptor dweebs worth a lot less. An ISC dude can hurt just as much, and sometimes more, than a Klingon, and at the same time, also have the close-in crunch of plasmas. Where other plasma punks lack long-range firepower, the ISC have the PPD cheeze machine. It seems the ISC have it all, and that makes things unbalanced.


Hey, this post still is a rambling about the ISC! Okay, I'll stop complaining. I realize that in an older game like OP, the ISC won't be "fixed"- if you consider it a problem at all. However, there has to be some way to fight them. As I said before, I have tried chasing down PPD ships, and they just run away and lob plasmas until I have to run away. Then, they whittle me down with the PPD. I couldn't believe that Amarillo Design Bureau and Taldren would have put this race in to their games if they were so cheap. I must be missing something that makes them balanced. Maybe you could point out a key weakness, or at least flame if you'd like 


Fly well and have fun,
Rob, an SFC fan

[RazalYllib]

Ah, the age old debate of the uber PPD.

It is to be respected not feared. The SFB origen of ISC makes it clear that the ISC studied the other races who were in the midst of the General War and basically invented tech to defeat them.  PPD armed ships were not common and formed the tip of ISC Echelon and they never did anything without the echelon. Most "hstorical" ISC engagements consisted of a LARGE fleet showing up and "pacification" operations...basically Ill pacify any one who gets in the way of me pacifying this hex.

They rarely patrolled, but took/held strategic points and denied use. Lone ISC were easy pickings. Unfortunately PPD ships caught by itself was virtually unheard of...which is not the case w/ OP.

During the Pacification, ISC had a pretty ez job...most of the other fleets were exhausted for fighting a war for like 10 - 12 years or so (dont remember exactly but I have a general war history someone saved---pesky braincells failing...use to know this stuff...aging does that to the ole grey matter)

In the couple SFB tourneys I played where there was an ISC tourny cruiser one time...I took his ranged PPD and closed and was able to string of pearls my torp run and hit 2 diff shields ... I was able to keep speed after ward and downgraded one s to f and was able to sucker out a ww then get a nice hit w/ the fast loaded f....i took some internals but he was worse...next arm cycle EPT one torp turned the other off and change speed mid turn which was the key to get into range w/ freash shield to take it ... that was it...enough dam was done he resigned...cause at that point I would have ballet ez.

Another time friendly I used phased cloaking Up..Down etc w/ weasled to get extra ECM and had a jump rack (and took out some of the reloads to make a SP and was able to get close enough....draw out his ww with the SP and was able to get the Max Alpha at near Point Blank...of course if Plasma Bolts were possible...the run and gun w/ plasma bolts could dent the Forward shield of the PPD armed shift enough that bring it to bear would invite Ph1 that "might" just take it out...cause a long range shot through a open shield is often worth it.

In OP you may have good luck if rom....cloak...when they get decent range...and AI might take a long range shot then start cloak while pulse the last might miss if U lucky...then charge---anchor + alpha, preferably in front facing PPD has narrow Arc...the rear plasma is countered w/ speed is life doctrine.

[Tus-XC]

or you could do what i did when i was doing a 2v2.  I grabbed a KHK, the other fellow a gorn... the other 2 guys went ISC CCZ, well I rushed them is all... I had power spare so i dropped it into my forward shields, let him shoot his green shyt at me and took it like a good rommie , grappled them w/ a lvl 3 tractor and blasted him w/ my gorn mate... when things go 2v1 at about the 4 min mark... well lets just say things weren't looking up for the other guy.  (I suspect I suprised them when i broke formation w/ my gorn buddy...)

[FPF-DieHard]

D2 Fleeting rules = PPD not ubber.

The weapon's not broken, flying 2 CCZ together is the broken part.

[AcePylut]

Here's how you defeat the PPD, and make it just another weapon...

As SOON as you see that PPD reach out and touch you... click on the / button to activate EM.  Assuming a no-ECM ECCM shift at light-up... EM generates an 2 shift... which causes the damage to be simulated as if it were from 2 "range colums" further.  Also, and more importantly, this forces the PPD to reacquire lock on.

As soon as the PPD is "done", click on the / button again, to turn off EM.

After 1 turn goes by, you can then use EM again... and it takes 2 turns for the PPD to charge.


That's the weakness of the PPD.  Time delay damage.  With dizzys and photons and any other direct fire weapon, you can't turn on EM "when the fire", you can only time when you turn on EM (as in... a fed is going fairly slow with nothing in ECCM... ummm... overloads.  So tease them out... fly into range... but before you get to range 8.99, turn on EM, fly into range 8.99, watch him fire his OL torps at what he thought was a no-ECM shift, watch those torps miss, feel the pain of the fed pilot as he goes "oh crap")

[Corbomite]

Here's how you defeat the PPD, and make it just another weapon...

As SOON as you see that PPD reach out and touch you... click on the / button to activate EM.  Assuming a no-ECM ECCM shift at light-up... EM generates an 2 shift... which causes the damage to be simulated as if it were from 2 "range colums" further.  Also, and more importantly, this forces the PPD to reacquire lock on.

ECM does not affect the damage of Direct Fire Weapons (except Phasers and Fusion Beams). The chance to hit is from a "longer" range, but if they hit, damage is from the range you shot from.




The PPD is pretty vicious, but it can't shoot at short range (below 4) because it was built to shoot at farther ranges and do more damage at those ranges than the comparable weapons of the other races. It is expensive to charge, takes forever to repair and requires more time heading towards your opponent (if you want to get in all four pulses) than any other weapon.

ISC ships have a lot of power, but not enough to charge everything at a decent speed so the trick is to make them use that power moving and not charging everything. They are always going to get in that first shot so you just have to take your lumps and try the suggestions put forth by previous posters, i.e EM and closing in to nullify the PPD if possible.

If they turn and run that means, depending on the ship, that the PPD is probably off and they have enough power to charge either their main Torps (G/S) or their I-Torps, but not both (a few can charge one or two I-Torps while charging main Plasma, the CCZ being one of them).  Keep them at 31 and follow at an oblique angle, not directly behind, at a distance of no less than 10 and no greater than 15. Fire when you can at the rear shield and dodge I-Torps when necessary.

Try to spread the Plasma hits to different shields every time if you can. They can only fire one I-Torp at a time at you from that angle so it shouldn't be too hard. All you have to worry about is the main Plasma shots, but if you can hover around 15 away they get behind you and lose a lot of juice. If they try to turn away to get you behind them, try to cross over to the other side and draw Plasma as you go, staying as far back as you can while not losing a good shot.

You will take damage, but if you can run them down after opening a shield and chewing up some of their power they will be almost helpless. A good Droner pilot and Fighters are the ISC's biggest weaknesses. Certain Lyran ships can also be a problem for them.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Thanks for the replies and the tips.

I guess I'll have to be more aggressive against these guys. A lot of plasma can be scary, but maybe I just gotta brave it.

I just tried that EM trick, it works out pretty well. I need to remember to manage my power better, though, because sometimes when I hit the EM and charged some weapons, all of a sudden, my speed drops to 15... ouch.

[Panzergranate]

Just consider that you're not facing them in true SFB style.... in echelons.

The ISC were intended to be weapons technology superiour to the Gorns and Romulans, plus most of the other General War races, which is how they managed to subdue even the Feds and Klingons during the "War Of Pacification", which was ended by the Andromenda Invasion, just as they were starting on the Lyrans.

The PPD is meant to be "over the top" but does have the close range handicap. SFB doesn't have "balance" between races regarding weapons, as an individual player's skill and use of a weapon system. Having a super weapon doesn't mean that one will win against a weaker opponent...... look what happened in "Blackadder's Christmas Carol" where in an alternative future, General Baldrick accidentally fires the Terran Empire's Super Doomsday Weapon at the wrong fleet because he didn't know it was facing the wrong way.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Hi.

Been playing this game since 1998 and joined the community on-line in 1999.  Here's some abridged history I can share with you.  No doubt I'll muck up the argument even more.

First my experience with ISC.

If you are an ISC once you open a shield then get to range 15 with the PPD the other guy is toast.  His only recourse is to turn and incur horrendous damage (from plasma) to engage in a knife fight or (even worse) anchor with with the plasma ship (a dubious notion if the ISC has I torps).  ISC without I torps are weak in the rear so your best bet is to fight them like you were they're favorite enema (excuse the vulgarity).  ISC ships have some of the best offensively arrayed phasers in the game and in a close range knife fight (under range 4) can hold their own with any race and exceed them...for example the average ISC heavy cruiser has 8 phasers (ones) and 6 ph 3's that can all be brought to bear to the front half of the ship (due to FAL and FAR arcs).  Compare that with either of the three Fed BCH that have similar arcs but could not match the average ISC heavy cruiser in a simple phaser duel at knife fighting range.

PPD ISC are weaker against Lyran and Hydran(w/fighters), probably more so hydran than lyran unless the lyran carries PF's.  They aren't built to fight droners either but in most cases most droners rarely carry fast drones or even mid speed.

Since the cloak was "fixed" at the last OP patch ever PPD no longer does any damaged to a cloaked ship.  So ROMS now have a way to go back to their old tricks they use on everyone else AND now the ISC as well.  If I'm a ROM I would play the cloak and dagger game, intice them in and then uncloak when they get under ESG range and the odds are in the ROMs favor.

That leaves  FEDS Gorns and KLINGS hanging out there somewhat.  Mirak too with slow drones.  If your a FED use fighters and drones.  Fighters esp the Raven are good.  Klings and Gorns have a hard time still (IMHO) and about the only thing is to get in close and grab.  Under Firesoul 4.0 Klings in team play should use a mauler to punch holes in the ISC ship and make it run since there are a few of them scattered up and down the ladder.  Use your DL5's or whatever as "escorts" to protect the mauler while it does its dirty work.  If you fly allied fleets l;like we do in gamespy the best is a ROM lyran or Kling mauler with Hydran hellbores...pop a hole in their shields and then hellbore the GIZZARDS off em at range.  That keep up with the PPD I think.  Heh.

As for Gorns well...against an I torp ship you should let loose all the shuttle you have and the ISC to waste its I torps on them .  But i th end your still going to have to grab em.  Sorry. 

For me I do not believe in tampering with weapons and things.  Or for that matter stripping ships of capability to "even the odds".  The "internals" of the game were set up based on some notions of balance.   The short history of SFC is rife with cautionary tails about the DEVs themselves responding to resentful PVP players who got their arses whooped by sneering ISC (or other) opponents (and sometimes not so sneering) by trying to change things without thinking of the consequences...  some classic examples:

Plasma torpedo holding costs...

Ignoring (or perhap s not realizing) the fact that plasma superiority probably stemmed mostly from the SFC1 "fast charge bug" (which they fixed) and the fact that Plasma in SFC1 ignored ECm and wasn't effected by point defense as it all is now the DEVs were even further persuaded to double plasma holding costs (what you call a PILE ON in Football) until it became obvious they had imbalanced the game severely.  As a matter of fact the original poster KNOWS all about that problem because the title of this thread is a paraphrase of a thread that addressed it...  "The Rise and Fall of The Plasma Torpedo" by a player I knew (on-line), SMICK of KEG fleet.  They finally moved the costs back to SFB standard when they found out it want working, ships like the Romulan SPJ and the Gorn BCH could barely run speed 24 or cloak.

Erratic maneuvers...

Some Fed players complained about their opponents clicking Em on and off at will, spoiling their carefully planned photon approaches and ECCM countermeassures.  The Devs responded by installing an 8 impulse "delay" on using EM that effectively took it out of the game.  After on patch they reached a compromise where it is now...it goes on instantly and has (I think) a one turn "cool down" period before you can use it again. 

The Esg

The biggest blunder in the name of "balance" yet.  Due to complaints from many races the DEV's decided that they would put a warning "hum" on the ESG and an 8 impulse delay before it deployed.  The results were rather comical and tragic when SFC II came out...within a month or two 8 PVP fleets with about  150 players left the game, many forever unless they found a new race.  A later patch decreased the delay to 4 impulses and that seemed almost right.  The "warning" actually seems to help lyrans...makes em scarier.  Heh, by the time a Lyran get close enough to deploy his ESG  the warning doesn't really matter  (at least in a SPD 9 game).

Other attempts have been made to alter the game to achieve someones notion of "balance" and failed.  For example one talented player after flying Gorn for about year suggested that the Gorn 4 shuttle firing rate be taken away because it was too "uber".  Apparently some Gorns loaded up and suicide shuttles and (with GREAT practice) deliver a suicide bombardment at range zero.  According to him (after he had developed tactics using it that had won him hundred of games), that was cheating.  But I can't imagine how imbalanced the Gorns would be had they taken it away since they were designed to fight and counter Romulans.   His suggestion was made when WW and Suicide shuttles already had a one point holding cost attached to them. (talk about overkill)

Why mention that? True it never happened.  But the point here is that if you attempt to alter a race in any way you will alter the race and the chances of unbalancing it are good.  If you attempt to alter weapon in any way or change the game dynamics you are also risking  unpredictable results.

Also it's already been mentioned in one of these posts in one way or another,  SFC is based on a "story" that was told in SFB that happened over a number of modules and years.  The ISC played a part in that story and they are what they are because of that.

For what it's worth...

There is a column in the Shiplist called "balance" which is found on column "EW" if you use Microsoft excel to examine it.  This column has addressed the problem somewhat by adding ship BPV for some of the ISC's more popular ships like the CCZ, CCY, and CC. 

So the actual BPV of these ships are as follows...

CC=Actual BPV 180 +  balance of +11 gives it its current BPV of 191
CCY=Actual BPV 189 + balance of +11 gives it its current BPV of 200
CCZ=Actual BPV  229 + balance of  +20 gives it its current BPV of 229

For my money the real "imbalance" in this game isn't the ISC but the inclusion of all these Tugs and War Destroyer variants with horrendous offensive capability far beyond their own "featured" BCH's,  Light Cruisers, Destroyers and other ships of the line...or the inclusion of a "conjectural" ship like the LYRAN STL that can be bought cheap and dominate games  whenever it is played at 220.

A mod called the XC Hardcore did address many of these problems.  An excellent mod and well done and yet for some reason its not on the download section of the DYNAVERSE.  Seems it should be.  Maybe its elsewhere to be found.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Say wait a sec...your Roy right?

Hmmm...well maybe you don't know about the original thread I mentioned concerning plasma.

Well lets use the Mauler suggestion I had.  Use One ROM FHF and two Hydran Ov's vs 3 CCY at 200 or 210.  Heck I dare say the Hydran/Rom guys go the game at 210.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Hi Ron, good to see another GSA folk around
 
Thanks for the tips and info. Yes, it seems best that Starfleet Command stay as it is, which is probably how it will always be. I wasn't there when they doubled the plasma holding costs, but it sounds like a nightmare. I have seen the original Taldren "Rise and Fall of Plasma" with the Internet Archive, it's fun to read.

The cloak tactic seems to work out well, playing on the myopic zone. I guess fighting the ISC means closing in and pounding them. Time to learn the mauler! Fortunately, the bpv of PPD ships seems kindof balanced (like with a CCZ costing more than any other BCH). However, like you said, things like those "Heavy War Destroyers" are pretty cheezy. Oh well, what the heck, it's a great game.

[el-Karnak]

I am a veteran ISC line pilot which means I only like to fly the I-CA and I-CC hulls.  I am not sure how to fly against ISC because I don't do it that much, but I can tell you how other pilots beat me and with what ships.

In general, an ISC ship loses power fast when it starts to get reasonable damage. So, once you get in a few good shots the tide will turn in your favor.

Mirak with Fast drones. I don't really like fighting these guys very much. They just flood you with drones and before you know it you have 6 drones crashing into your hull.

Lyrans with lotsa PFs. These guys are really nasty when they have 4 PFs flinging dizzies at you from range 15 or so. Then the Lyran runs you over with 4 ESGs. Ouch!!

Feds with lotsa fighters and drones. Please read about Mirak above.

Klingon Droners. A good droner pilot that  locks onto you with tractor at 4 power and has some SPs going will not make your day . . .

Gorns. Sometimes you just have to go speed 31 and phaser boat them.

Roms with lotsa PFs. Too many plasmas for anyone to handle.

Hydran CVs with lotsa hellbore fighters. If the Hydran chases you and launch fighters at range 5 or less then it's not going to be your day . . .


My tactics when flying ISC  usually involve trying to stay at above speed 15 when recharging all weapons and above 20 when recharging plasmas or PPD only. I always try to keep the opponent at about range 10.   When out-numbered I try to get the opponent to chase me, so that I can lob plasmas at them.

[Panzergranate]

In SFB the ISC operate in a well disiplined echalon formation, which is described in detail in the Commander's Edition of the rules.

This depends on the size and makeup of the fleet but basically the front rank is made up of frigates backed up by destroyers. Any fighters, PFs or Drones die trying to make it through this front rank. Behind, giving heavier longer range firepower are the capital ships.

In SFB cracking a hole in the ISC's closed ranks is tricky and relies on a well coordinated team effort. Casulties are always high.

Fortunately in SFC echelon tactics are next to impossible to pull off in a LAN game as exact positioning of all ships is essential.

Imaging a squadron of B17s flying in formation with interlocking fireplans and you have some idea of what happens when some fool flies into the middle of it all!!

Anyone here evere witnessed SFB ISC echelon tactics??

[Corbomite]

Anyone here evere witnessed SFB ISC echelon tactics??

Witnessed and played, although it was many years ago.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Thanks Karnak for "snitching" on your race.  But don't worry we just won't tell ANYONE.

   (j/k)

Well those comments fall more or less along with what I have thought myself.  Some clarification from a part time Hydran...

Hydran ships have fighters, almost al of them.  Hydran Fusion Ships are heavy with Fighters while Hellbore ships have few or none.  Hydrans carriers, mentioned by Karnak, usually have no heavy weapons at all.  

I don't like Hydran carrier like the CAv, which is a cheesy ship , but some player use it still.  Hydran mixed ships like the BAR, COM, OV, SUI, etc offer the  greatest balance between fighters, speed, and offensive capability.  A hydran SUI is a good ship to take on an ISC CCY.  It should be a close match favoring the SUI (if the pilots are Beginner to Intermediate skilled) and the CCY (If they are advanced Vets) because the CCU has no I torps and at 200 the SUI gets 6 Hornet III's, a devastating loadout if used properly.  At higher skill levels a good CCY pilot will probably not run at all but entice the SUI to bring out his fighters and use shotgun plasma while tractoring the SUI.  For a better match at higher skill levels favoring the Hydran I would go 210 and use an OV, a true battle cruiser.  While the fighters will be II's at that BPv the ship is tougher and more capable.  But Beware the CVLS in this situation.

Lyrans are another matter.  They should loose those PF's early and start the charge on the ISC's position, making it difficult for them to charge their PPD. The Lyran needs to deliver an opening shot if close enough or play a "cat  and mouse" stalking game, similar to what it does with most plasma ships  (Chase, stop, reinforce, distribute plasma, chase, get in range, wear down shields, open it up, distribute plasma, stop, etc).  I think those tactics work to a certain extent but at some point early or mid game the Lyran needs to "nip" the ISC with his deadly ESG bite and suck some power from the ESC or the damage ration from the PPD will win the day.  With PF's a certain amount of "distraction" is on the lyrans side.  Plus those PF's can start to wear those shields down.

Again, like I did before, i'LL make a distinction between Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced skill levels...if you are a beginner against a beginner and sometime Intermediate vs Intermediate I would actually favor the Lyran by a big margin.  Use Small to medium space and charge their position.  You intent is to overrun and make the ISC pilot panic.  An advanced ISC pilot wil almost always insist in Lareg space, nice an clear so they can manuever, run and make those turns to deploy the PPD. m  if he see you coming he will shut down a PPD in favor of plasma until he's warded you off or put you on the run.  Or he might "underload his PPD" and downgrade his plasma on the run.  Rocks don't like ISC and favor fast turning ships and sabre dancers by trade.

 

[Panzergranate]

Having managed to fly a D7K through the middle of two parallel lines  consisting of 8 Fed starships (1 x CVA, 2 x CA, 2 x DD and 3 x FF) and make it 29 Hexes past them before being blown away, my experience of the ISC echelon tactics is making it just about level with the frigate / destroyer line before blowing up.

The plan was to hold fire until point blank with the capital ship and let fly with the whole arsenal. My flanking Klingon players also suffered the same fate though they did manage to toast a couple of frigates.

Still Klingons are supposed to die glorious deaths in battle!!

I've seen fighters and PFs come off even worst!!

The key is to force the echelon to break up, which is what the ISC players are trying hard to prevent, as they know that they're easy prey as sepearted units.

[Dizzy]

D2 Fleeting rules = PPD not ubber.

The weapon's not broken, flying 2 CCZ together is the broken part.

Exactly. When did the isc EVER have 2x CCZ's in the same area of space?

[Corbomite]

D2 Fleeting rules = PPD not ubber.

The weapon's not broken, flying 2 CCZ together is the broken part.

Exactly. When did the isc EVER have 2x CCZ's in the same area of space?

Ummmm, lessee... Anytime two ISC are on a server? What do I win?

[Braxton_RIP]

It has been happening a lot more recently, believe it or not.

[Panzergranate]

To quote "Bucky O'Hare"...... "Let's croak us some toads!!"