Topic: star wars time era

[Don Karnage]

i was wondering how far more advance the star wars technologies is compare to star trek tng?

how many century is between them?

[Nemesis]

It would be impossible to say as Star Wars tech has no "history" leading from our level to its. 

How do you compare hyperdrive to warpdrive for example?  Star Trek cloaks work on small vessels unlike the Star Wars cloak but Trek ships are never nearly as big as the larger ships of Star Wars. 

As to whether the Trek Galaxy fighting the Star Wars Galaxy in a war who would win has been argued over repeatedly. 

[Vipre]

Trek - Fusion powered Impulse engines
SW - Fusion powered engines & Ion engines

Trek - Shields
SW - Shields as well but much weaker

Trek - Photon torpedoes
SW - Proton Torpedoes and concussion missles

Trek - Phasers
SW - Lasers?

Largest Trek Ship - 1041 meters
Largest SW ship 17.5 kilometers

Trek - Warp Drive
SW - Hyperdrive

Trek - Orion Slave Girls
SW - Twi'lek Dancers


Seems pretty much even so far.

[Nemesis]

Star Trek - Genesis Device - winner
Star Wars - ?

Star Trek - Psionic enhancement serum from Platos Step Children - winner
Star Wars - midichlorians

Star Trek - transporters - winner
Star Wars - feet

Star Trek - Handphaser and disruptor - disintegrates - winner
Star Wars - blaster - makes small hole (only lethal if you are armored)

Star Trek - Harcourt Fenton Mudd  - winner
Star Wars - Jar Jar Binks

Star Trek - Tribbles - tie?
Star Wars - Ewoks - tie?

Star Trek - Uhura (translator) - winner
Star Wars - C2P0 (translator)

Star Trek - Scotty (Engineer) - winner
Star Wars - R2D2 (Engineer)

Star Trek - Leah Brahms(Designed Enterprise D Engines) - winner
Star Wars - Designer of the Death Star with fatal flaw

[marstone]

Also remember that warp drive and FTL are not equal.

Star Trek ships can fight at and somewhat above the speed of light.
Star Wars ships can only fight at sublight speed.

Star Trek ships can change course while moving above the speed of light
Star Wars ships have to complete a jump, then calculate another one.

But with the size of the Star Wars ships hard to say which could take more damage in a fight.  Plus the fighter swarms would be a pain to deal with.

[Vipre]

I tried to leave out the ridiculous.

How can a ship fire an energy weapon while travelling FTL at a target also going FTL when the top speed of the weapon is less than the speed of light? You couldn't possibly aim far enough ahead. Torpedoes are impossible for the same reason, they are are not warp capable and regardless of technobable the fact is that as soon as the torpedo exits the warp field of the launching ship it'd drop to sublight. This point is of course ignored for the sake of entertaining television.

I'll give the the change course during warp part.

[Nemesis]

What makes you think that Trek weapons are not faster than light?  Their sensors can track faster than light objects and therefore must act faster than light.  Why would you assume that the weapons were STL?

Watch the Balance of Terror, the Enterprise is traveling in reverse at warp speeds when hit by the Plasma Torpedo.

[Vipre]

Star Trek - Genesis Device - winner
Star Wars - ?

Check

Star Trek - Psionic enhancement serum from Platos Step Children - winner
Star Wars - midichlorians

Fail - not tech. Also it wasn't a serum it was the food.

Star Trek - transporters - winner
Star Wars - feet

Check

Star Trek - Handphaser and disruptor - disintegrates - winner
Star Wars - blaster - makes small hole (only lethal if you are armored)

Check - clear winner

Star Trek - Harcourt Fenton Mudd  - winner
Star Wars - Jar Jar Binks

Fail - not tech

Star Trek - Tribbles - tie?
Star Wars - Ewoks - tie?

Fail - valid tie but not tech

Star Trek - Uhura (translator) - winner
Star Wars - C2P0 (translator)

Fail - correct tech is "Universal Translator" which makes it a tie

Star Trek - Scotty (Engineer) - winner
Star Wars - R2D2 (Engineer)

Fail - not tech

Star Trek - Leah Brahms(Designed Enterprise D Engines) - winner
Star Wars - Designer of the Death Star with fatal flaw

Fail - both designs flawed and while she's hot she's a tech not tech.

Still, Trek does seem to have the lead now.  

[Vipre]

What makes you think that Trek weapons are not faster than light?  Their sensors can track faster than light objects and therefore must act faster than light.  Why would you assume that the weapons were STL?

Watch the Balance of Terror, the Enterprise is traveling in reverse at warp speeds when hit by the Plasma Torpedo.

Two reasons, number one you can see and dodge a phaser beam at impulse. If you can see it then the light has reached you before the beam, therefore sublight.

Number two, photon torpedoes are sublight by their own admission. A torpedo has neither a warp core or nacelles to generate a warp field. And this is where I point out how technobable is used to ignore the fact for entertainment purposes..

Also included in the torpedo are target acquisition, guidance and detonation assemblies and a warp sustainer unit. The latter is charged by the launching vessels own drive field at launch, boosting the torpedo speed up to Vmax = Vl + (0.75 Vl / c), where Vl is the velocity of the launching vessel. If launched at low impulse flight the torpedo will accelerate to a 75% higher sublight velocity; launch at high impulse speed will not push the torpedo into warp. If launched during warp flight the torpedo will continue at warp until the sustainer is exhausted. Torpedo range can be extended by utilizing the matter / antimatter warhead to power the sustainer, although this causes a corresponding loss of warhead yield. For a midrange yield the torpedo can achieve ranges of some 3,500,000 kilometers at sublight speeds.

[Hexx]

Star Wars: Sexy Tie Interceptor
Star Trek : Oh that's right, crap.

Star Wars : Golden Bikini
Star Trek : Whatever the hell those crappy costumes are called

Star Wars : Evil Force Using kick ass Big Bad Cyborg as big bad
Star Trek : Cyborgs that apparently have transwarp tech as tech base, yet can be genocided by a 3d Illusion. If only Picard had been able to do it..

I'm going with Star Wars taking the three most important ones.

[Nemesis]

Two reasons, number one you can see and dodge a phaser beam at impulse. If you can see it then the light has reached you before the beam, therefore sublight.

By what means are they being seen?  By their own light or by the faster than light ships sensors?

Consider then how slow the so called "Super Laser" of the Death Star must be based on seeing its various components move so slowly together as it fires.  Blasters are even slower as Jedi move to block them after they are fired and succeed.

Number two, photon torpedoes are sublight by their own admission. A torpedo has neither a warp core or nacelles to generate a warp field. And this is where I point out how technobable is used to ignore the fact for entertainment purposes..

From the Star Trek Encyclopedia:

Photon torpedoes are usually the weapon of choice when a ship is at warp drive,since they are not limited by the speed of light.

[Vipre]

By what means are they being seen?  By their own light or by the faster than light ships sensors?

I'm claiming their own light. There are numerous examples showing that a phaser beam moves slower than light. I'm just pointing out how they can't have it both ways. They either are faster or slower and they've shown them to be slower, they just ignore that when convenient.

Consider then how slow the so called "Super Laser" of the Death Star must be based on seeing its various components move so slowly together as it fires.  Blasters are even slower as Jedi move to block them after they are fired and succeed.

Indeed, neither universe has FTL weapons.

Photon torpedoes are usually the weapon of choice when a ship is at warp drive, since they are not limited by the speed of light.

In order to breach the speed of light in the Trek universe the item has to be surrounded by a warp field, for the federation to generate a warp field you need four things, matter, anti-matter, dilithium crystals to regulate the energy, and nacelles to generate the field. A torpedo has two of the four. As I've said they ignore the facts as needed. A torpedo fired while the ship is at impulse does not accelerate to the speed of light. It is a sublight weapon, however again as posted above they use the technobable "warp sustainer unit" to ignore that. What would happen is the same as what happens when the phasers fire, as soon as the torpedo exits the warp field of the ship it would drop to sublight speed.

Ships in Star Trek can have FTL shootouts because "it looks cool and the viewers will like it" but they have to ignore their own rules regarding FTL to do so.  I'm not criticizing them for doing it I'm just calling it as it is.

[marstone]

I tried to leave out the ridiculous.

How can a ship fire an energy weapon while travelling FTL at a target also going FTL when the top speed of the weapon is less than the speed of light? You couldn't possibly aim far enough ahead. Torpedoes are impossible for the same reason, they are are not warp capable and regardless of technobable the fact is that as soon as the torpedo exits the warp field of the launching ship it'd drop to sublight. This point is of course ignored for the sake of entertaining television.

I'll give the the change course during warp part.

AS the other guy said, what makes you think the weapons can't be FTL.   Laws of physics are more of a guideline, they fit what we know and understand right now.  YOu throw quantum physics, or (grr there is another one having to deal with particals and probability but can't remember it ATM) and they push standard physics to breaking.  Besides it is SciFi tech, doesn't have to match ours.   Also remember on ST:TNG they used a quantum wave to push a ship along in one episode, it was moving at warp speeds.

[marstone]

One other thing, if there wasn't a way to have energy move at FTL, the sensers would not be able to scan ahead of a ship moving at warp.  So if you give the navigation at warp speed you have to concede that energy is able to move at warp also.

[Vipre]

AS the other guy said, what makes you think the weapons can't be FTL.

Because they've repeatedly shown them not to be. You can't fire a phaser while at impulse and have it be slower than the speed of light then go to warp and magically have it become FTL. It either is or isn't.

One other thing, if there wasn't a way to have energy move at FTL, the sensors would not be able to scan ahead of a ship moving at warp.  So if you give the navigation at warp speed you have to concede that energy is able to move at warp also.

I've already conceded that twice. Inside the warp field surrounding the ship all energy and weapons including the photons remain at warp, anything passing outside the field becomes subject to the normal forces which means the weapons revert to their normal space characteristics.

As photons and phaser beams are sublight in normal space the moment you fire either one at an enemy ship while at warp and the beam or torpedo breaches the field they enter normal space and drop out of warp making it impossible to hit the enemy unless the ships warp fields overlap.

It's the same effect you see when you throw something out the window of a car at high speed. Inside the car you can throw a ball from the back to the front with ease because the air (normal space) is deflected around you thanks to the closed design of the car (warp field/bubble)

The moment the ball exits the car through an open window (exits the field) it's suddenly 100 ft behind you (drops out of warp)


I want to point out again that all of this is absolutely irrelevant inside the trek universe. It's a TV show, they ignore anything that wouldn't work because if they didn't it'd be a boring show. They can have weapons that ignore the rules they've created, for the sake of entertainment.

However the point of the thread was to compare the tech of the two universes. To do that you can't have the "whatever laws of physics work for this episode" stance. This is why I left out "Combat at Warp vs. No Combat at Hyperspeed", because if Trek's weapons can break their own rules for the sake of entertainment then so can SW which makes CaH possible.

[Nemesis]

In order to breach the speed of light in the Trek universe the item has to be surrounded by a warp field, for the federation to generate a warp field you need four things, matter, anti-matter, dilithium crystals to regulate the energy, and nacelles to generate the field. A torpedo has two of the four. As I've said they ignore the facts as needed.

Episode ST:TNG The Emissary.  In a probe which does not have nacelles and had little room for anything but K'Ehleyr herself she travelled interstellar distances presumably at warp speeds.  The probe was approximately 2 meters long (6'). If the probe could do so why not a photon torpedo whose shape is similar though somewhat smaller?

As stated earlier in ST The Balance of Terror while running in reverse at warp speeds the Enterprise was struck by a Romulan Plasma Torpedo.  The Enterprise also fired at and struck the Torpedo with phasers.  The Warbird in the same episode had "simple impulse power" which means no antimatter and no dilithium yet it must have moved at least 1/3 of the Enterprises top cruising speed to get from one destroyed station to the next where the two ships fought (based on the map shown in the episode).

[Nemesis]

One other thing, if there wasn't a way to have energy move at FTL, the sensors would not be able to scan ahead of a ship moving at warp.  So if you give the navigation at warp speed you have to concede that energy is able to move at warp also.

I've already conceded that twice. Inside the warp field surrounding the ship all energy and weapons including the photons remain at warp, anything passing outside the field becomes subject to the normal forces which means the weapons revert to their normal space characteristics.

By what you are saying the sensors are only FTL within the warp bubble.  That does not match the various episodes where the Enterprise (any of them) scans a whole solar system without waiting weeks for the light speed sensors to report back.  They also would make the various "listening posts" along the neutral zone useless as the motionless posts with no warp bubble could not detect a ship moving by 10 lightyears away without a 10 year delay in sensor response.  If the energy of the active sensors can leave the warp bubble (or even the ship coasting sublight) cross the solar system and return information effectively instantaneously then you have energy moving at FTL speeds outside the warp bubble.  Therefore energy weapons should be able to do the same.

[Don Karnage]

remember that the jedi where there a 1,000 years and already have light saber, so they're tech is a lot more advance.

[Nemesis]

remember that the jedi where there a 1,000 years and already have light saber, so they're tech is a lot more advance.

"For a 1000 generations the Jedi were the guardians of the old Republic" not years.

Irrelevant anyway.  Time does not always lead to technological advances.  Some societies progress technologically slowly, consider the Roman and Chinese empires.  New inventions and knowledge can be suppressed as "dangerous" to the established regime.

The light saber as a "laser sword" makes no technological sense.  What causes the beam to not extend until it hits something?  Why does the blade grow from 0 to full length in a time that a human can see the growth?  How come the "laser" blades physically collide instead of pass through one another?  So the light sabre must be something other than the laser sword it is portrayed as being.

In addition you must remember that the Federation has access to much more advanced technology that they choose not to use.  As one major source consider Norman and the other androids from ST:TOS I Mudd.  They are under Federation control and programming.  They have technologies such as "warp engines the size of a walnut", androids that the Enterprise sensors cannot tell from living human flesh.  The ability to put a human brain in an android body and sustain it for centuries.

There are two possible reasons why the ST Empire has larger ships, the reasons could of course be combined:

1/ More planets which allows some to be dedicated to single industries.  An entire planet that only builds starship hulls would be able to build much larger ships than one that builds starships only for it own needs.

2/ Droids as slave labour.  Build them to the intelligence level required and no more.  Droid slaves building arbitrarily large numbers of other droids on uninhabitable planets with no consideration of environmental damage could build huge numbers of droid slaves.  Take those droids into nearby space and dismantle moons and asteroids for raw materials and you can build structure of sizes as vast as your technology will allow to hold together. 

Of course just because ships are large does not mean they are well designed or well built.

[Hexx]

Keeping in mind that we'll probably have tech in advance of both of them in 50-100 years (possible exception of FTL travel of course) .
Not really sure what teh deal is.