Topic: OT: The New Enterprise

[OlBuzzard]

WOW!  ...

Seems we all have opinions on this matter.  I agree with several of the statements made.  My "final" review is still one of anticipation for the movie.  I plan on keeping in the back of my mind a few things to remember:

1.  No two actors are exactly the same...  the manner in which they deliver their lines, their facial expressions that often say things that words do not !  Sometimes the way they might even "carry themselves".

2.  The same thing is true of writers:  They do not use the same words, charactor development, or other screen dynamics to express the same thoughts or ideas.

That said IMHO as long as the tools that are used by this team that has been assembled to portray this "next" movie (or possible series) is faithful to its origin, cast, and as much as possible, even the design themes of the ships ..  it should be worth seeing. 


It has been stated very well as to the influence of TOS, in all of the successful spinoffs of Trek.  YES even Bill Shatners over acting.  Let's face it ..  like it or not as a star ship captain he was suppose to be "larger than life"  and he fit that like a glove.  Keep in mind that was also what Roddenberry wanted.  Would that be different today?  I think perhaps a better question is "Do we have the right to attempt to re-write history in the light of our perception of the changes in todays technology and political land scape?"

As for how well the script is "done"  (acting etc...  ) the special affects, ship designs ..  etc.  That still remains to be seen.  If they do as good a job as Batman Begins does with the "reboot" concept they should do well.  As for casting:  Some times is not so much the move from one type of charactor (comedy etc) as it is the ability of the individual to make that change.  Some can (and do it very well) ... some just simply can not.

Let's face it ...  a lot of this is all speculation.  For now they have my support and I eagerly await the release.  I will reserve the negative until such time as it is warranted ...  just my thoughts!

[Don Karnage]

if tos was remake today is a good question

well since the original enterprise was build in the 60's and the tmp was was made in the 70's making a new enterprise from scratch maybe keeping the idea of warp engines and a saucer would be a interesting idea.

so what the enterprise would look like is a challenge for everyone to think, so sharp you're pencil and start drawing a new ship.

1- the ship have 2 warp engines

2- the ship have a saucer

3- the ship and a main hull

4- don't copy engines and general look of any ship from drawing or model or mod or anything that already somewhere.

so from a new look the constitution class from the tos period what it would look like, the warp engines don't need to be round.

[AsYlUm]

Lol... well im too busy with work and everything else, so keep the updates coming fellas... its nice to have a thread here to catch up on this stuff.

P.S.      All trek rocks.. no matter what it is it runs through my veins and i love it all.. ( wouldnt have spent years learning to model space ships otherwise  )

[Vipre]

Are you talking "remake" or is the premise "Trek never existed what would it look like if created today"?

Worlds of difference could be drawn between the two, the biggest being the ships. Flying saucers were big in 60's sci-fi and as a result had a huge impact on the design. I'm glad letting it be an overriding impact was avoided or we'd have that silver saucer concept design.

Looking at other sci-fi it seems a big influence on modern ships was the movie Aliens. Halo, Babylon 5, Homeworld and numerous others have a similar design style for ships as seen in that movie, though I'm not sure what influenced the Aliens ship design. One would also wonder what impact our military equipment would have, items such as the F-22 and F-117 look pretty futuristic as well as the B2 even though it's design style predates TOS.

Key components likely wouldn't even exist, warp drive would probably be replaced with some kind of jump drive, transporters might give way exclusively to shuttles, phasers might be replaced with handguns and rifles and it may be much more military in feel. TOS was inspired by the 18th and 19th centuries. Would a modern creation draw that same inspiration or focus fully on the 20th?

[atheorhaven]

Personally I thought that new Bond was the best one they've had in years.  He took 007 back to his roots as an assassin and gave a realistic performance of what someone in that profession might be like.  Anyone remember that 00 status was meant to be a license to kill?  And can anyone really picture Pierce Brosnan (who I did like in Remington Steele) strangling a crazed African guerilla and still making it back to the poker table?

Are you kidding?  Of course I can see Brosnan doing that, and if the gorilla were female, trying to mate with it.  When he came back to the table, he'd smooth his hair, adjust his tie and say,"Sorry about the delay gentleman, I've just pulled out of a hairy situation."


Brosnan does that sort of thing extremely well and makes it smooth. 

This is definitely true.  The effects are even more amazing when you consider that Star Trek was made and 3 years before we made it to the moon.

And that's the thing that makes the show so interesting to me.  The foresight that they had when we were still just orbiting people around the planet and had not yet really hit escape velocity with humans yet.  You get the occasional hint of it in the show (like when they refer to a black hole as a "black sun" in Tomorrow is Yesterday) and that makes it all the more amazing to me.  The science was thought of well enough that it inspired a generation of engineers, astronauts, and other geeks to get out there and help bring us that much closer to the future we see in the show.  Right now, I'm typing on a computer that's about the size of a small dishrack, with a flip-style communicator-style phone on my hip and a communicator-style Bluetooth handsfree kit on my ear.  If people really want to see the influence and foresight that TOS had on human society, just think about it the next time that you get coffee from a vending machine, use your cellphone, or walk into your shopping mall and have the doors open in front of you.  *That's* all thanks to TOS..

These are fighting words.  Please wait for me at September 12th, 1776 in Pennsylvania.  I'm coming to kick ass and reverse the polarity of the neutron flow....and I'm all out of neutrons.

'Fraid that I had my Time Hopper taken away, I was using it too much and spending far too much time in the "free love" society of Ancient Greece.  Say what you want to about how decedant they were, but the ladies there knew how to live.  This guy wearing opera clothes showed up, ripped a strip off me talking about chancing damaging the time/space continum through my negligence and repeated visits, pushed me into this big blue box, and exiled me to Canada. 

And if I did go to Pennsylvania around that time, I'd run too much of a chance running into an ancestor.  How about... hmmm, May 17, 1987 in Nassau in the Bahammas?  The American dollar was strong then, and we could spend a fantastic time at one of the beach bars getting bleary eyed on Jamacian rum.  First one to pass out after making an ass of himself loses.  You'll have to drive though..

Total rubbish.  Shatner was brilliant and his energy in the role was one of the big factors in making the show believable.  For further proof of his talent just check out his Twilight Zone appearances.  The Shat managed to make an unconvincing monster costume perched outside an equally unconvincing airliner set one of the most terrifying pieces of television I saw as a kid.

He had his moments, "The Doomsday Machine" and "The Conscience of the King" comes to mind.  But everytime I see "The Paradise Syndrome", my inner child cries a little.  And he was brilliant in the "Twilight Zone".

It's just a shame they had to remake The Changeling and suck all of the story and tension out of it.  Oh, and they screwed up the Klingons badly.  When I watched the movie as a kid I couldn't figure out who the guys with the foreheads were and I wanted them to get back to the Klingons that seemed to be promised by the 3 D7 cruisers.  I'm still waiting for them to get back to the Klingons.

Agreed.. I think that anyone wanting to do Klingons well needs to watch three things:  "Shogun", "Hunt for Red October", and "Gorsky Park".  If you've never watched those, you'll never fully understand Klingons.  And I still miss the original look of the Klingons as well, the foreheads still make it look too much like a novelty condom instead of something believable.  That kind of head ridging should extend onto the face, down the back, and onto places like the hands and knees in a real organism.

This is pretty much the strategy I follow with every movie.  Oh, and Batman Begins rocked.  Wasn't there an old Batman comic miniseries where he got involved with R'as A Gul and it was revealed that Batman had done some of his early training with R'as?

There was.. and that's how he initially met Talia.  Think Neil Adams drew those stories..

I've always been leery of this prequel stuff (especially after George Lucas burned us by revealing that Darth Vader was really just a troubled kid who got suckered by a psychological ploy and a series of lies that wouldn't fool a third grader).  I have to agree with some of the posters that it might have been better if they'd just done a movie either with the Enterprise crew or set it after Nemesis.  The idea of seeing some Hollywood pretty boy trying to fill Captain Kirk's boots makes my stomach hurt.

I look at it as they've finally run out of ideas, and elements of Harve Bennett's "Starfleet Academy" script finally made it to the screen after almost twenty years.  I'm *hoping* for a good movie, I'm *praying* for a good movie, but I'll do the waiting game and wait and see.

[Don Karnage]

Are you talking "remake" or is the premise "Trek never existed what would it look like if created today"?

Worlds of difference could be drawn between the two, the biggest being the ships. Flying saucers were big in 60's sci-fi and as a result had a huge impact on the design. I'm glad letting it be an overriding impact was avoided or we'd have that silver saucer concept design.

Looking at other sci-fi it seems a big influence on modern ships was the movie Aliens. Halo, Babylon 5, Homeworld and numerous others have a similar design style for ships as seen in that movie, though I'm not sure what influenced the Aliens ship design. One would also wonder what impact our military equipment would have, items such as the F-22 and F-117 look pretty futuristic as well as the B2 even though it's design style predates TOS.

Key components likely wouldn't even exist, warp drive would probably be replaced with some kind of jump drive, transporters might give way exclusively to shuttles, phasers might be replaced with handguns and rifles and it may be much more military in feel. TOS was inspired by the 18th and 19th centuries. Would a modern creation draw that same inspiration or focus fully on the 20th?

well a was thinking a kinda remake, if startrek was made today what the ship would look like?

you must keep this in mind, the ship have a saucer a main hull and 2 warp engines, how it look like is up to you, but it must be you're creation, not something you copy from any source.

[Panzergranate]

Stare Trek also drew on various scientific theories and postulates that had been published in scientific journals, being attempted to be made reality or in their infancy, projected them into the future and predicted that the human race would have figured how to make these theories work after 200 years of research and deveopment.

For example:

Sun-Atomic Impulse Power (1938), a postulate, in which is you can somehow sychronise the sub-atomic impulse of  any two individual elements, you can achieve cold fusion with them. Despite the fact that is should work, nobody has been able to design and create the "Synchroniser" device reuired to make it all happen. Note that the term "Synchronaiser" often pops up when taliking of anything to do with Impulse Engines in Star Trek engine room blah blah.

Phaser (1966) which is a modulated laser beam passed through a polarising filter. Experimented with by the US millitary during the Cold War and has a better range plus energy delivery than a simple pulse laser. The "Hammer Drill" efect of the modulated wave bursts in the long discharge beam pulse causes structural stress to the hit area. This could be tuned to precisely cuase best effect on a material. Disappeared in millitary secrecy and God knows were they are with it now. Over shadowed by the more portable (??) negative image X-Ray pulse laser system.

Disrupter (1960's) On the ground uses atmosphere to transmit a ultra sonic shock wave to a target and literally hake it apart. During early experiments, a group of scientist were accidentally killed in a Dosrupter experiment.  During the mid 1980's Grenada invasion, Cuban troops accused the US of using "Disrupters" and weapons of the same ilk on them, with tales of people having theor bones turned to powder, truck falling apart, etc. In the vacuum of Space a Disrupter needs a transmission medium to relay the shock wave through and Plasma makes an ideal medium.

Warp Drive (1956) a theory by the French mathematician Aubecere that actually works under the current laws of physics and mathematics. In February 1999 NASA's Radical Propulsion Labs made the front page of New Scientist magazine when they announced that they managed to propel a single molecule to light speed and back in one Kilometre, which was the total length of the Warp Engine they'd built. Anyone who understands relativity and the laws of physics relating to it, will know that to travel at the speed of light in conventional space, that an object must have the same mass as a single particle of light (Photon). As a molecule has a mass far in excess sveral billion billion times more than a Photon, it shouldn't even be able to make half light speed. A NASA spokesperson predicted that maybe in another 100 years we might be able to use it to propel very small space probes at FTL speeds. The actual experiment took the equivalent power outputs of three US states total electrical generator outputs.

Transporter / Teleporter (20th century various scources) the Heiscenberger Conumdrum prevents this from happening and also various theories that synergy cannot be transmitted, as in, if you tansport a spiing top, because you can't capture or quantify the synergy, the spinning top will be static when it rematterialises. Foe this reason many scientist believe that using a transporter, if such things were created, would kill animate lifeforms as conciousness cannot be transmitted with the body.

Star Trek TOS tried to keep with the way that science seemed to be going back in the 1960's and avoid Sci-Fi "Handwavium" technology such as "Jump Drives", etc.

The reason Lasers changed to Phasers was originally given to be the latter were publised in the scientific journals in 1966 and they sounded better as "new" technology to Gene, especially if the real Lasers were about to be supercedded by the new Phasers back then.

From a lecture given at my local university by the English guy who designed the "All Good Things" 3 engined Enterprise-D, the Star Trek writers consult NASA a lot about science.

[Vipre]

Too true. I was referring more to the way in which the show was presented. Aside from everything else TOS was a combination of 18th century high seas exploration and 19th century wild west tales mixed with the world's fascination with all things "outer space" at that moment in history.

If created today there's a good bet it'd look an awful lot like the new BSG.

[Panzergranate]

God forbid that it look like BSG!!

It just wouldn't have the appeal that is has had for 4 deacdes.

If Trek was made like BSG something would come along that was like Trek and steal the limelight.

I used to like "Space Above And Beyond" which had great potential, war with an unknown alien race where it transpires that Earth is in the wrong, good plots, storylines, etc. so what idiots decided to axe it after one season??

 

[OlBuzzard]

Stare Trek also drew on various scientific theories and postulates that had been published in scientific journals, being attempted to be made reality or in their infancy, projected them into the future and predicted that the human race would have figured how to make these theories work after 200 years of research and deveopment.

For example:

Sun-Atomic Impulse Power (1938), a postulate, in which is you can somehow sychronise the sub-atomic impulse of  any two individual elements, you can achieve cold fusion with them. Despite the fact that is should work, nobody has been able to design and create the "Synchroniser" device reuired to make it all happen. Note that the term "Synchronaiser" often pops up when taliking of anything to do with Impulse Engines in Star Trek engine room blah blah.

Phaser (1966) which is a modulated laser beam passed through a polarising filter. Experimented with by the US millitary during the Cold War and has a better range plus energy delivery than a simple pulse laser. The "Hammer Drill" efect of the modulated wave bursts in the long discharge beam pulse causes structural stress to the hit area. This could be tuned to precisely cuase best effect on a material. Disappeared in millitary secrecy and God knows were they are with it now. Over shadowed by the more portable (??) negative image X-Ray pulse laser system.

Disrupter (1960's) On the ground uses atmosphere to transmit a ultra sonic shock wave to a target and literally hake it apart. During early experiments, a group of scientist were accidentally killed in a Dosrupter experiment.  During the mid 1980's Grenada invasion, Cuban troops accused the US of using "Disrupters" and weapons of the same ilk on them, with tales of people having theor bones turned to powder, truck falling apart, etc. In the vacuum of Space a Disrupter needs a transmission medium to relay the shock wave through and Plasma makes an ideal medium.

Warp Drive (1956) a theory by the French mathematician Aubecere that actually works under the current laws of physics and mathematics. In February 1999 NASA's Radical Propulsion Labs made the front page of New Scientist magazine when they announced that they managed to propel a single molecule to light speed and back in one Kilometre, which was the total length of the Warp Engine they'd built. Anyone who understands relativity and the laws of physics relating to it, will know that to travel at the speed of light in conventional space, that an object must have the same mass as a single particle of light (Photon). As a molecule has a mass far in excess sveral billion billion times more than a Photon, it shouldn't even be able to make half light speed. A NASA spokesperson predicted that maybe in another 100 years we might be able to use it to propel very small space probes at FTL speeds. The actual experiment took the equivalent power outputs of three US states total electrical generator outputs.

Transporter / Teleporter (20th century various scources) the Heiscenberger Conumdrum prevents this from happening and also various theories that synergy cannot be transmitted, as in, if you tansport a spiing top, because you can't capture or quantify the synergy, the spinning top will be static when it rematterialises. Foe this reason many scientist believe that using a transporter, if such things were created, would kill animate lifeforms as conciousness cannot be transmitted with the body.

Star Trek TOS tried to keep with the way that science seemed to be going back in the 1960's and avoid Sci-Fi "Handwavium" technology such as "Jump Drives", etc.

The reason Lasers changed to Phasers was originally given to be the latter were publised in the scientific journals in 1966 and they sounded better as "new" technology to Gene, especially if the real Lasers were about to be supercedded by the new Phasers back then.

From a lecture given at my local university by the English guy who designed the "All Good Things" 3 engined Enterprise-D, the Star Trek writers consult NASA a lot about science.

BINGO!  

As I understand it   ...  one of the reasons that Gene insisted on nacelles in pairs was as a result of "creating the warp field" needed to jump to warp speed in the first place.  If ya want t have some fun read some of the theories in quantum physics and the theory of relativity.  (Essentially the chaotic vs orderly).  Some theorize that the key to solving the reality of "warp drive" could lay in an equation that satisfy both conditions.  It's quite interesting even thought it is all theory at this point in time.  But then again so much of what we see today as factual, was little more than theory ....  some of it not that too long ago!

[Vipre]

God forbid that it look like BSG!!

It just wouldn't have the appeal that is has had for 4 deacdes.

If Trek was made like BSG something would come along that was like Trek and steal the limelight.

I used to like "Space Above And Beyond" which had great potential, war with an unknown alien race where it transpires that Earth is in the wrong, good plots, storylines, etc. so what idiots decided to axe it after one season??

SAaB and BSG actually have a huge amount in common. Both are navy in space shows, very militarized, based on carriers, centering heavily on fighter combat, and both had previously fought a war against AI they had created.

[Panzergranate]

The fighters were cooler on SAaB!!

Having tracking KEP cannons was a far better and obvious idea than a WW1 concept of try an point the fighter at the target before firing.

Note how SFB and SFC fighters use the same concept.

The fact that the alein enemy was apparently human sized furry and not normally agressive creatures who were fighting off a Terran invasion, as they saw it, was a nice plot twist..... Humans being the bad guys in a war... brilliant.

[Vipre]

Humans being the bad guys in a war... brilliant

Well we do have a boatload of experience at it. 

Now as to the fighters,  more realistic probably, cooler no chance. Nothing matches a Mark II Viper nada.

[Panzergranate]

Gene based much of the fictional Warp Field theory on his training and knowledeg of radio during his stint as a WW2 bomber WO / Navigator.

A star ship can use a single Warp engine to generate a field, and Star Trek has numerous TV show examples of alien starships that use a single engine.

However, like radio antenna, which the engine nachelles are basically theoretically supposed to operate as, the diameter of the field is larger and can be controlled in length and bredth if it is generated by two emitters.

In radio we use two antenni and a bloody difficult to rig up coaxial cable arrangement refered to as a "Co-Phasing Harness".

The transmitter power to each antenna is shared between the two, but by altering the distance between them, the polarised field, which actually generates the radio waves, can by stretched and manpulated for best effect in certain directions.

18 wheelers use co-phased helical mirror mounts to allow the polarised field generated to be distored so as to push the field into a more circular pattern. A single anteena would tend to create a filed in line with the truck's shape, giving poor signal response from the side directions of the truck.

The same goes for the Warp nachelles in Star Trek.... the distance between the two nachelles determines the shape of the Warp Field for FTL speeds and the Sub-Space field thrown around the ship to reduce apparent mass when propellled by Impulse Power or the Particle Beam Thrusters.

The use of Sub-Space fields to reduce mass to aid sublight drives is pointed out in DS9 by Chief  O'Brien in the "Emissary".

However it had featured in a 1970's TOS shuttle technical manual stating that shuttles have a Sub-Space field emitter belt for exactly the same purpose.... cheating relativity.

I think that it'll be alright with the movie and they won't do a "Lost In Space" movie "Jupiter 2" travesty with the Enterprise.

Remember that J.J.Abrams is running the show and not that mob who were responsible for ENT!!

[OlBuzzard]

Agreed....

The only thing I would be careful of  (in order to respect Genes work from the beginning) would be the time frame in which the 3rd nacelle would be introduced.  Regardless of how and why Gene decided to insist upon the "pairs" of nacelles the fact is that he did.  The Enterprise is shown with a 3rd nacelle (though done in an "alternately universe setting").  I personally have no problem with it (depending upon the location of the 3rd unit).  IF it were to be used IMHO TNG,DS9, Voyager eras and after fits best.  This compliments the idea of a better understanding and consequent further development of warp drive while still showing respect to the original work that Gene insisted upon with the nacelles in pairs.

Still  when it gets right down to it ..  this is all just sci-fi.  A lot of what we will see will depend upon the writer ....  and of course how well JJ executes the telling of that story.  In any case, as long as respect is shown to the overall theme, history, etc of Trek it should do well.

[Panzergranate]

Canon has sourced from fandom before now, as the writers do have to find inspiration from somewhere.

Jackill's Abbe Class PT Destroyer appears in a DS9 episode...... without permission or a credit as I E-mail Erik and told him, which he duly checked out and low and behold, there is an Abbe overtaking the Defiant during an attack.

The Abbe was punlished before the episode was created.

[atheorhaven]

.. found elements here and threw all this together.  You'll need PaintShopPro to open this, but here's half of the new bridge console. 

Original images are here:
http://trekmovie.com/2008/01/25/jj-abrams-trek-team-fan-chat-transcript-pictures-from-the-set/

I color corrected and enhanced the shot, then added in the original shot to show the lower detail.  And finally added in a shot of the half console, to build a composite, adjustable transparency shot to show different details of the console.

Get it here:
http://www.4shared.com/file/36243790/c2d5b545/new_bridge_shot.html

[Panzergranate]

Spock as protrayed at various ages, including as a teenager, in ST TMP III "The Search For Spock", as the revitalised Spock went through rapid aging from child to middle aged adulthood.

As Spock was shown as an teenager, Zacary Quinto's portrayal and appearance will have to fit in with this and Nimoy's Spock in "The Cage" episode. They do have some reference points to go on and Quinto will fit as the logcal progression from teenage Spock in ST III.

[Don Karnage]

sure if these lunatic where doing startrek tos like they do bsg it would be horrible, i was just talking that us we make the constitution class (a mod) that would be the tos, so what the ship would be if "WE" made it think it, a remake can be good but the way the keep remaking it its just bad thinking, what will they do with space 1999?, a moon base and the eagle and the character eeekkk, that would be too weird.

[Panzergranate]

I watched a re-run of Space 1999 this Saturday afternoon, and it is so good with the plots, acting, special effects, etc.

It is a Gerry Anderson production after all, and filmed at Pinewood Studios wherre Star Wars was filmed.

Now if Gerry had been put in charge of he specual eefects by Gene during TOS, well it wouldn't have looked so lame nowadays....

Now if the planets in SFC were as good as the ones in Space 1999 it would be nice.