Topic: star wars time era

[Vipre]

As I keep pointing out Nem I'm not the one who's shown Phasers and Photons to be sublight weapons, the creators of the Trek shows were. When a ship sitting stationary fires a phaser or a torpedo it's been show unknown numbers of times reaching it's target at sublight speeds. I didn't write those episodes they did. I didn't create the rules regarding FTL travel in Trek either, they did. When their weapons are held to their own sets of rules (no technobable warp sustainer units) it shows what I've said is true.

From Star Trek dot com

Photon torpedoes are usually the weapon of choice when a ship is at warp drive, since they are not limited by the speed of light, as ship's phasers are.

Left that part off the original quote.

Phasers are limited by the speed of light by their own admission, photons as well but the magical WSU saves the day there. The Emissary, it's called plot device, the only time a class-8 probe is mentioned according to Memory Alpha. Probably a WSU in that one as well.

Sensors. Have the creators of Trek ever explained sensors? Likely not I tried both memory alpha and StarTrekdotcom no luck, So I'll throw them a bone and say it probably has something to do with subspace, seeing as a subspace carrier wave can travel FTL. I did the math and to scan Pluto from the sun LS sensors could do so with only a 10 hr delay, this of course only applies if the signal acts like radar and has to bounce back. I don't believe that's true, I believe the sensors simply read energy, radiation and light waves already at their location. This would mean a 5hr delay for visible light and non subpace energies. Explanation for full realtime system sensor scans, small systems. Explanation for viable listening posts, telemetry buoys and subspace sensors. A ship ten light years away passes within RT sensor range of a buoy and that buoy sends the intel though subspace communication to the post or the post through subspace sensors detects an impulse or warp signature passing within it's range. However since it's already been pointed out that they change the rules of their universe whenever needed it's whatever speed the writer needs this episode.

Luck hit
SW v. ST
Read the section mislabled "Federation Shields". Notice what the very first sentence says.

[AlchemistiD]

If I remember correctly:

ST:  Warp Drive-  Can go basically anywhere you want, but not nearly as fast as Star Wars' intra galactic Hyperdrive unless you're talking about Transwarp conduits, which seems to be much faster (when plot demands) but suffer from a similar flaw that holds back the hyperdrive IMHO.  Or the Quantum Slipstream Drive, which either takes several months to cross the galaxy or ten minutes (according to "Hope and Fear" and as seen in "Timeless", respectively.)

God, I am such a nerd

SW:  Hyperdrive- The ability to traverse the entire galaxy within a matter of weeks/days, but only along known routes.  According to the books, scouting new Hyperspace routes is extremely dangerous (hence the road to Tatooine in A new Hope is the exact same as in Phantom Menace which is the exact same as in Knights of the Old Republic, supposedly.  I think I have to go back and play that game again now.  ), so there would theoretically still be large gaps of unexplored galaxy.


Neither one really wins in that category IMO.  The whole ST vs SW argument is pretty redundant.  Star Destroyers spit huge lasers, Starfleet ships rapidly empty whole salvos of antimatter nukes.  The only thing I think for certain is in a straight fight against a Federation fleet, the Death Star would still be royally screwed.

As for a timeline, KOTOR and it's sequel take place roughly 4000 years before the Star Wars films begin.  In KOTOR, it was revealed that Hyperspace travel was originally developed by an ancient race called the Rakata, that once held a massive empire spanning the galaxy.  Hyperspace travel is said to already be very old in the period KOTOR is set in, going on anywhere from 20000 to 25000 years.  Though between KOTOR and the movies it seems to have changed little (I guess if it ain't broken, why fix it).

That is, if KOTOR is considered canon.  If life day ends up as canon, though, I see no reason for KOTOR not to be taken as such.

awww...they're like family to him 

[marstone]

As for hyperdrive jumps from my rememberance does follow known routes because it takes less computer power to plot the movements of all the galactic bodies during that a jump as you eliminate a variable.  It is one thing the little R2 droids could do, the have the programs and proccessing power to plot the jumps (but I am not sure if they could plot whole new paths or just how to follow known paths)

[Nemesis]

As I keep pointing out Nem I'm not the one who's shown Phasers and Photons to be sublight weapons, the creators of the Trek shows were. When a ship sitting stationary fires a phaser or a torpedo it's been show unknown numbers of times reaching it's target at sublight speeds. I didn't write those episodes they did. I didn't create the rules regarding FTL travel in Trek either, they did. When their weapons are held to their own sets of rules (no technobable warp sustainer units) it shows what I've said is true.

Your source claims phasers are sublight but you seem to keep insisting that all ST weapons are sublight which conflicts with other posts of your own.

Photons torpedoes for example you have said both of the following.  Only one can be true.
A/ sublight

Number two, photon torpedoes are sublight by their own admission. A torpedo has neither a warp core or nacelles to generate a warp field.

anb

B/ FTL

Photon torpedoes are usually the weapon of choice when a ship is at warp drive, since they are not limited by the speed of light,

So which is it?  Are photon torpedoes limited to sublight or are they FTL?

The Emissary, it's called plot device, the only time a class-8 probe is mentioned according to Memory Alpha. Probably a WSU in that one as well.

Whether plot device or not it is still canon as it does not conflict with other prior canon. 

Sensors. Have the creators of Trek ever explained sensors? Likely not I tried both memory alpha and StarTrekdotcom no luck, So I'll throw them a bone and say it probably has something to do with subspace, seeing as a subspace carrier wave can travel FTL. I did the math and to scan Pluto from the sun LS sensors could do so with only a 10 hr delay, this of course only applies if the signal acts like radar and has to bounce back. I don't believe that's true, I believe the sensors simply read energy, radiation and light waves already at their location.

Now figure from the very edge of the solar system (out at the oort cloud) to the far side of the cloud.

Even if the sensors propagate though subspace they still have to interact with normal space.  That interaction would allow the same concept to function as a weapon. 

Explanation for viable listening posts, telemetry buoys and subspace sensors.

You are not considering scale.  If the telemetry bouys only have a one light week sensor range figure how many of them would be needed for the length and height of the Romulan neutral zone.  The number becomes astronomical quite quickly.  The sensors must have ranges in the light years to make the listening posts viable even if they extend their ranges with telemetry bouys.  A 1 light year grid with bouys every 2 light weeks would take 729 bouys.  Now extend that to the 100's of thousands of square light years of the border and multiply by the number of layers.  If the buoys only have sensors operating at sublight speed then your information is up to a week out of date which in an invasion detection system is useless.  Sensors must be FTL and do active scanning as otherwise a warp driven starship passing would not be seen by the passive reading of lightspeed information.

[Dash Jones]

I guess to answer the original question however, there are at least several centuries to millenia between Star Wars and Star Trek.  Star Wars is in the past, and Star Trek is in the future, so if Star Trek is more advanced that shouldn't be surprising, as Star Wars happened a Long Time Ago...

[marstone]

The other problem with the idea that sensors pick up energy from the targets and not a "ping" style, is that the directions (angle) the energy is coming from will be moving because everything is space is moving.  So you will always be behind in the placement of the target (now true a really good navigation program should be able to project the movement of steller objects, but it wouldn't be able to do that with ships, asteroids, blackholes, and other things that do not emit large amounts of energy to track.  For objects other then stars you would have to illuminate them with some sort of sensor (hence energy moving faster then light, subspace maybe).  Now in TOS subspace communications wasn't always that great or they wouldn't have had log probes (they called them something but can't remember, but remember the episode that the Enterprise sent off a probe to StarFleet with information and the enemy distroyed it). 

The tough thing about it is Cannon doesn't really mean that much truely as even the different series (sometimes in the same series) they conflict with themselves.  When the series first started out there wasn't much concern with keeping facts straight as it was just entertainment.  It wasn't until alot later that they tried to string it all togeather.  A nice case in point was the stardates used in TOS.  they were just made up numbers (maybe with alittle format to it, don't recall)  but the order of the episodes and the stardates do not match that well.  They later tried to explain it as warp speed time differential or something like that.  The simple sad truth is, logic means nothing in a scifi universe.

[Nemesis]

The simple sad truth is, logic means nothing in a scifi universe.

Some authors and series creators do try to be consistant.  Stargate SG-1 and Babylon 5 both do a much better job than Trek ever did.  Partly because both of them knew that a series could last a long time, Trek proved that for them. 

Trek does have flaws, some can be explained by technology or terminology change over time.  Others could be cured by a future series if the authors were creative about it. 

[marstone]

True because of ST and SW newer scifi shows do try to be consistant, because if they are not, they get lots of letter telling them their mistakes.   When Battle Star Galactica (the new one) started up.  I had a thought "what a mistake" when they gave the exact number of vipers of each type they had on board.  I was waitng for the day the got flooded with letters saying something like.  How come did you have 12 Viper VI shown in such and such scene when they only have 10 left.  I think some people have forgot that this is entertainment.  Oh and a side note, no I never kept track of the vipers in BSG.

[Nemesis]

Part of story telling is to make the story believable.  To be believable you have to stick by the rules and facts you state.  Characters and their motives need to be consistent or if they change do so for a reason.  Changing the rules because they are inconvenient now is the sign of a careless or inferior story teller.  Modern shows realize that each episode builds on what came before and lays the foundation for what comes after.  Older ones (like ST) were filmed with the philosophy of the older sitcoms where each episode mostly stood alone. 

[Vipre]

As I keep pointing out Nem I'm not the one who's shown Phasers and Photons to be sublight weapons, the creators of the Trek shows were. When a ship sitting stationary fires a phaser or a torpedo it's been show unknown numbers of times reaching it's target at sublight speeds. I didn't write those episodes they did. I didn't create the rules regarding FTL travel in Trek either, they did. When their weapons are held to their own sets of rules (no technobable warp sustainer units) it shows what I've said is true.

Your source claims phasers are sublight but you seem to keep insisting that all ST weapons are sublight which conflicts with other posts of your own.

Photons torpedoes for example you have said both of the following.  Only one can be true.
A/ sublight

Number two, photon torpedoes are sublight by their own admission. A torpedo has neither a warp core or nacelles to generate a warp field.

anb

B/ FTL

Photon torpedoes are usually the weapon of choice when a ship is at warp drive, since they are not limited by the speed of light,

So which is it?  Are photon torpedoes limited to sublight or are they FTL?

Interesting how when you post quotes you keep cutting out little bits. The first one is a quote by me, the second is a quote of a quote written by StarTrek.com yet you act as if I'm contradicting myself. Also interesting to see that the second quote was included in my post only because you had used it previously and had cut off the last bit then as well. Let's go ahead and quote the full thing and do so correctly...

Number two, photon torpedoes are sublight by their own admission. A torpedo has neither a warp core or nacelles to generate a warp field. And this is where I point out how technobable is used to ignore the fact for entertainment purposes..

From the Star Trek Encyclopedia:

Photon torpedoes are usually the weapon of choice when a ship is at warp drive,since they are not limited by the speed of light.

From Star Trek dot com

Photon torpedoes are usually the weapon of choice when a ship is at warp drive, since they are not limited by the speed of light, as ship's phasers are.

Left that part off the original quote.

My "source" is the show itself, and the rules for FTL travel put forth in those shows. You forgot these two quotes:..

When their weapons are held to their own sets of rules (no technobable warp sustainer units) it shows what I've said is true.

and

...they change the rules of their universe whenever needed...

There is confliction because the shows conflict. The shows show phasers travelling a STL but the speed is given as exactly LS, not my contradiction, their's. Photons are shown not to have warp generating capabilities, by the FTL rules they created a warp field must be continually regenerated or it collapses, example: A ship at warp receives damage to a nacelle and is forced to drop from warp. The WSU is nothing more than a flux capacitor, a piece of technobable used to explain away the contradiction, again their's not mine. I maintain then as I do now that by their own rules neither weapon could travel FTL and that they break their own rules for entertainment purposes.

The Emissary, it's called plot device, the only time a class-8 probe is mentioned according to Memory Alpha. Probably a WSU in that one as well.

Whether plot device or not it is still canon as it does not conflict with other prior canon.

I never said anything about it not being canon, never said I had any issues with them contradicting themselves, but I at least acknowledge that there is a contradiction. I said that in order to fairly compare technology from the two different universes one side could not be allowed to change the rules of that universe whenever it suited them. Since the weapons are shown by their own design to be StL and the exceptions are plot devices for specific episodes I chose not to include the flux capacitor in the comparison.

Sensors. Have the creators of Trek ever explained sensors? Likely not I tried both memory alpha and StarTrekdotcom no luck, So I'll throw them a bone and say it probably has something to do with subspace, seeing as a subspace carrier wave can travel FTL. I did the math and to scan Pluto from the sun LS sensors could do so with only a 10 hr delay, this of course only applies if the signal acts like radar and has to bounce back. I don't believe that's true, I believe the sensors simply read energy, radiation and light waves already at their location.

Now figure from the very edge of the solar system (out at the oort cloud) to the far side of the cloud.

Even if the sensors propagate though subspace they still have to interact with normal space.  That interaction would allow the same concept to function as a weapon.

 

Torpedoes travel through subspace? That's a new one seeing as subspace is GR's version of radio frequencies, which is why it's mainly used for communications. Sensors = Radar = Radio Detection and Ranging

Explanation for viable listening posts, telemetry buoys and subspace sensors.

You are not considering scale.  If the telemetry bouys only have a one light week sensor range figure how many of them would be needed for the length and height of the Romulan neutral zone.  The number becomes astronomical quite quickly.  The sensors must have ranges in the light years to make the listening posts viable even if they extend their ranges with telemetry bouys.  A 1 light year grid with bouys every 2 light weeks would take 729 bouys.  Now extend that to the 100's of thousands of square light years of the border and multiply by the number of layers.  If the buoys only have sensors operating at sublight speed then your information is up to a week out of date which in an invasion detection system is useless.  Sensors must be FTL and do active scanning as otherwise a warp driven starship passing would not be seen by the passive reading of lightspeed information.

At LS you are correct. The answer was in the link I provided at the end of that post.The main long-range sensors in ST are Subspace based. This allows the signal to travel  at warp 9.9997. LS Telemetry bouys were just one of the two options, both were guesses and my first guess was spot on...

I'll throw them a bone and say it probably has something to do with subspace, seeing as a subspace carrier wave can travel FTL.

Give your telemetry buoys subspace sensors and rerun the numbers. Shouldn't need to address something for which I gave two potential solutions one of which was correct.

[Nemesis]

Interesting how when you post quotes you keep cutting out little bits. The first one is a quote by me, the second is a quote of a quote written by StarTrek.com yet you act as if I'm contradicting myself. Also interesting to see that the second quote was included in my post only because you had used it previously and had cut off the last bit then as well. Let's go ahead and quote the full thing and do so correctly...

I quote the parts that I think relevant.  If I quoted everything then the posts would quickly get too long for the system to handle.

You have been quoting StarTrek.com as your source and justification for things.  That source as quoted by you contradicts the idea that all ST weapons are sublight.  If  you quote something that opposes what you claim then don't be surprised if the contradiction between your various quotes and what you say is noted and pointed out.

When I typed that in from the Star Trek encyclopedia I typed in what was relevant not the entire section of the book, I didn't take it from an online source. 

The following quote is from you and includes part of a quote from me.  The part in red came from you only, the Star Trek encyclopedia that I quoted from does not include that section.

Photon torpedoes are usually the weapon of choice when a ship is at warp drive, since they are not limited by the speed of light, as ship's phasers are.

The two sources are almost the same but the Startrek.com version is extended.

There is confliction because the shows conflict. The shows show phasers travelling a STL but the speed is given as exactly LS, not my contradiction, their's. Photons are shown not to have warp generating capabilities, by the FTL rules they created a warp field must be continually regenerated or it collapses, example: A ship at warp receives damage to a nacelle and is forced to drop from warp. The WSU is nothing more than a flux capacitor, a piece of technobable used to explain away the contradiction, again their's not mine. I maintain then as I do now that by their own rules neither weapon could travel FTL and that they break their own rules for entertainment purposes.

Not all warp capable ships in ST have nacelles.  Tholian vessels for example do not.  Different implementations of the physics can result in different designs.  Consider internal combustion engines, the normal reciprocating vs the wankel for example, both work on the same principles but the method of harnessing the energy is different.  The buoy that chased the Enterprise in the Corbomite maneuver was a cube - no nacelles, the Fesarius was a group of spheres - no nacelles.  Do you argue that they were sublight only as well?  These examples from TOS show that warp speed and nacelles do not have to go together.  The earlier post where I cited the first Romulan Warbird as having "simple impulse" power shows you also don't need anti matter.

Watch sci fi movies with lasers used in battles, routinely you see them from the side in space when they should be invisible from the side in a vacuum.  Routinely you see it coming towards you by its own light and by the very definition of laser if you can see it then it has already hit you.  The mere visual cinematics mean less than what the characters say.

My "source" is the show itself, and the rules for FTL travel put forth in those shows. You forgot these two quotes:..

When their weapons are held to their own sets of rules (no technobable warp sustainer units) it shows what I've said is true.

You haven't explained the origin of the warp sustainer units which I never heard of until you brought them up.  Until you give an origin I have no reason to assume it has any meaning.

...they change the rules of their universe whenever needed...

"did the kessel run in ... parsecs".  Star Wars used science terms without enough understanding to use them even approximately right.  parsecs unlike the way Solo used it is not a measure of time but of distance.   Then in one of the books they tried a convoluted explanation to make it a distance again.  So Trek is not alone in making changes.  Even with Trek making changes the plasma torpedo reference is to the first appearance and therefore any change to sublight would be the rules change.  Explain why the clearly Warp speed plasma was not actually warp speed yet was able to catch and impact the Enterprise which was running directly away at warp velocities.

Cite the episodes.  I cited ST:TNG Emissary for example but you wish to disregard it merely because it does not support  your contention.  I cite the FTL plasma torpedo from ST:TOS Balance of Terror but you have ignored it.  You are not actually telling where you get the information when you say things other than the startrek.com quotes.

For example you said:

Also included in the torpedo are target acquisition, guidance and detonation assemblies and a warp sustainer unit. The latter is charged by the launching vessels own drive field at launch, boosting the torpedo speed up to Vmax = Vl + (0.75 Vl / c), where Vl is the velocity of the launching vessel. If launched at low impulse flight the torpedo will accelerate to a 75% higher sublight velocity; launch at high impulse speed will not push the torpedo into warp. If launched during warp flight the torpedo will continue at warp until the sustainer is exhausted. Torpedo range can be extended by utilizing the matter / antimatter warhead to power the sustainer, although this causes a corresponding loss of warhead yield. For a midrange yield the torpedo can achieve ranges of some 3,500,000 kilometers at sublight speeds.

 

But you give no origin.  It is an assertion without any reason for us to believe it.  What is the origin?  What is the authority that would make us believe it accurate compared to other sources?  What episodes back it up?

Give clear sources that can be checked and which support your contention that ST ships do not use FTL weapons.  The evidence I gave supports FTL Photon and Plasma torpedoes and nothing either way for phasers or disruptors.  Even the Startrek.com source you use supports FTL Photon torpedoes.

[Vipre]

By not posting all three lines or showing it to be the correction of an earlier post you had made, you implied I said both were true. I now recognize that the dropped phrase in your original quote was a case of source conflict. You credited the quote as being from the ST:Encyclopedia and when I searched to confirm it found only the memory alpha version of that encyclopedia which makes no mention of the line, so I went to StarTrek.com and saw the expanded version. I presumed incorrectly that you had intentionally dropped the bit about phasers being limited to c to avoid admitting I was correct in saying phasers couldn't exceed c except within a warp field. I apologize for that.

When asked why I felt Trek weapons couldn't go FTL I responded...

Number two, photon torpedoes are sublight by their own admission. A torpedo has neither a warp core or nacelles to generate a warp field. And this is where I point out how technobable is used to ignore the fact for entertainment purposes..

and posted a quote from the only article the I could find which gave a detailed explanation of how the torpedo functioned. Startrek.com doesn't even try to explain the conflict. No one here has attempted to explain it either, just keep repeating they can because they can.

http://www.deepspace12.com/torpedo.htm <--quote source, I felt it had the best explanation of the workings.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/treknology-weapons.htm

The only two sites I found when I search for "photon torpedo" which attempt to explain the reason why something incapable of generating a warp field can go FTL. Notice in the ex-atris article the quote from the TNG tech manual. I believe that is probably the source used by both sites.

Have they ever explained on-screen how torpedoes can go FTL or is it just one of those things no one talks about?

I dismissed the class-8 probe because it was a plot device. Why could it go FTL when it was essentially an empty shell? Because the writers needed it to. What was the explanation as to why it could go FTL given in the episode?  There wasn't one, it could because they needed it to. Any other episodes mentioning the probe or it's abilities? No, it was a plot device see questions one and two.

Just google "warp sustainer unit". I'm betting though that the ultimate source of explanation is the TNG:TM. Okuda had to somehow explain the impossible and invented the WSU to do it.

You make an excellent point with the Tholians. The series people have never given out anything, to my knowledge, about how the Tholian stuff works. This is a good thing because if you don't try to explain how it works you don't have to worry about painting yourself into a corner and being forced to invent some technobable solution for it. It's beside the point though because it's not a question of how Tholians or the First Federation or [insert mysterious alien race of the week] manipulate warp fields if they use warp at all (borg) and what the restrictions on them are, it's how does the Federation.  Without "they can because they can" or "the mystical WSU" torpedoes function "realistically" given the meaning of "reality" as defined by the show and are restricted to sub light speed.

You say they can, I say they do because it's television, but would not be able to. Can we just agree that we've already spent way too much time on the subject an put it behind us? I'm beginning to worry I'll wind up at a Con somewhere getting yelled at by Shatner for asking him the code the safe in his quarters.

Perhaps this'll draw it to a close,

Q: Can photon torpedoes travel FTL and if so how?
A: Yes, whenever a writer has a plotline which requires a warp speed firefight, transportation of an operative in a way that allows her to make a cool entrance on the transporter pad or the need to torpedo Risa from the Delta Quadrant then he/she can ignore anything mentioned regarding the generation of warp fields using Federation technology and just make it happen so long as he/she remembers not to include any dialog explaining the inconsistency.

Probably not.