Topic: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?  (Read 6496 times)

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yochenhsieh

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Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« on: December 27, 2007, 09:07:56 am »
Hi,
I'm making a mod for SFC1, and I hope it can run on some really old PCs. Therefore I want to ask if anyone is interested in remake some of the stock SFC models, e.g. fca, fcl, kff.

Here comes some Limitations:
1)1000~1500 polygons is prefered. It would be better if you can make it in less than 1000. (That's why I call it a challenge.:P)
2)Use stock textures as possible. Or add extra textures if necessary but still based on stock textures. (I want all ships looks consistant in art design.)

Example: the Akula Class which made by Mr_Tricorder in this tutorial:
http://starfleetcommand3.filefront.com/file/Starship_Texturing_Tutorial;42970

If you're interested, please post your reply or WIP here, or you may PM me.:)

Thanks,

You-Cheng Hsieh

Offline Kreeargh

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2007, 01:49:15 pm »
How "canon" do you want them  can they be fan designs , fasa stuff and whatnot?
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yochenhsieh

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2007, 08:07:44 pm »
Please follow the original SFC/KA style if possible. Though there's not much freedom left after the above two rules....  :P

Offline ModelsPlease

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 12:26:00 am »
Hi,
I'm making a mod for SFC1, and I hope it can run on some really old PCs. Therefore I want to ask if anyone is interested in remake some of the stock SFC models, e.g. fca, fcl, kff.

Here comes some Limitations:
1)1000~1500 polygons is prefered. It would be better if you can make it in less than 1000. (That's why I call it a challenge.:P)
2)Use stock textures as possible. Or add extra textures if necessary but still based on stock textures. (I want all ships looks consistant in art design.)

Example: the Akula Class which made by Mr_Tricorder in this tutorial:
http://starfleetcommand3.filefront.com/file/Starship_Texturing_Tutorial;42970

If you're interested, please post your reply or WIP here, or you may PM me.:)

Thanks,

You-Cheng Hsieh


The Akula, is NOT the over and under nacelle config as envisioned from fan-fic. It's an Akyazi sub-class if we're talking canon.

ModelsPlease, resident "Model Junkie" recovering from a tragic crayon sharpener accident.

yochenhsieh

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 08:26:40 am »
The Akula, is NOT the over and under nacelle config as envisioned from fan-fic. It's an Akyazi sub-class if we're talking canon.
It does not matter. I just take it as example for what kinds of model I would like to use in my mod. :P


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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 06:34:46 pm »
Technically, the Akyazi isn't canon either unless they managed to sneak a pic of one way in the back on some brief display screen. Of course, you'd also need the name to be visible too, to really split hairs over this sort of thing. 8)

As for the Akula, it wasn't really that well-known of a design among our ilk until SFC/KA started using it and as far as I know, that's where that particular "Akula class" originated (similar ships were no doubt around, just not by that name). Games aren't exactly in the same classification as fan-fics...though in some cases they may as well be...
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yochenhsieh

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 11:43:00 pm »
People, please keep topic back to the subject. I believe there're more appropriate boards to discuss whether Akula is canon or not than this thread.

Thanks.

Offline Lord Schtupp

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2007, 05:56:33 pm »
People, please keep topic back to the subject. I believe there're more appropriate boards to discuss whether Akula is canon or not than this thread.

Thanks.


Congratulations you just pissed on a totally legitimate exchange between two of the greatest contributors to the game. Im sure they'll just start packing this thread to help you out now. - LS

yochenhsieh

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2007, 06:15:38 pm »
Congratulations you just pissed on a totally legitimate exchange between two of the greatest contributors to the game. Im sure they'll just start packing this thread to help you out now. - LS
The two greatest contributors posted off-topic contents in my thread and might lead this discussion to another entirely different direction. I feel it's necessary to stop what might happen next before it happens.

If necessary, I don't care about who I pissed on. Even they are the greatest contributors doesn't mean they can just jump in and start a canon war like that.

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2007, 06:39:00 pm »
Jackill's Abbe Class is canon as it appears in a DS9 episode (without his knowledge).

Also one of his freighter designs was "borrowed" for the holo-ship in "Insurection".

These are the only two insyances where ST fanon has become ST canon.

The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

Offline ModelsPlease

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2007, 10:51:17 pm »
Jackill's Abbe Class is canon as it appears in a DS9 episode (without his knowledge).

Also one of his freighter designs was "borrowed" for the holo-ship in "Insurection".

These are the only two insyances where ST fanon has become ST canon.



Great catch !  :thumbsup:

ModelsPlease, resident "Model Junkie" recovering from a tragic crayon sharpener accident.

Offline Lord Schtupp

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 11:12:06 pm »
Congratulations you just pissed on a totally legitimate exchange between two of the greatest contributors to the game. Im sure they'll just start packing this thread to help you out now. - LS
The two greatest contributors posted off-topic contents in my thread and might lead this discussion to another entirely different direction. I feel it's necessary to stop what might happen next before it happens.

If necessary, I don't care about who I pissed on. Even they are the greatest contributors doesn't mean they can just jump in and start a canon war like that.

LOL! you call that a war? Must be new to the modeling forum then!

As evidenced by that " I don't care about who I pissed on" comment and your lack of respect, you don't realize that its intelligent dialog like that keeps "your" thread from sliding onto the second page and hence into oblivion? MP and WZ are only two of the many great contributors here that could help you out, and I wish you the best of luck with your mod, but I advise a little more flexibility when it comes to trying to moderate "your" thread.

Offline AsYlUm

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2007, 12:52:34 am »
Lord Schtupp

Now there is a name you dont see to often around here, (massive fan of your work  ;)  )

as for the argument You-Cheng Hsieh you asked for assistance right, more so modelling assistance than anything else, now i have been around long enough to know that when, people
like MP and WZ make a post in your thread it will generate allot more interest, therefore increasing ur chances on getting someone to do this work for you, and not only that, they where both making
valid and interesting comments and it WAS making for a good read.

I was quite interested in this topic at one stage, but seeing how your speaking to Lord Schtupp (you know who is is right) and the likes of Wicked Zombie and Models Please its all gone a little stale for me.

Good luck with this project, as it does sound like a plan.. lower poly mods are often overlooked and most mods are mixed when it comes to polygon level and lack consistancy of that of an official game release.
leading to choppy frame rates and an overall poor mod.

Now everyone play nice, im gonna go grab a coffe before i start more textures  :'(

again LS.. great to see you, come back more often (with a release  8)  )


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Offline GotAFarmYet?

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2007, 02:10:00 am »
And to throw some gas on the fire here

Low poly is not the real solution to smooth game play here, 3-8k poly models work really well on low end machines as well if the textures are done right.

You limit the colour range to the 8 or 4 bit area which is only about 256 colours or less, make the textures less detailed and smaller say 256x256. You would see even high poly models work well, and very smooth game play. Most of this would have been fairly smiple to do for some of those ppl mentioned above as WZ has started to do that one a few of his models already. Also if you save the said textures as PCX and not BMP you get a boost also

But good luck with "YOUR" project, I'm just going to be an obsever on this one, as it wasn't going into a flame war here just a discussion with us seeing who would bit to work with on it. If you already lost WZ, MP, LS, and Asylum there are not many left.
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Offline Lord Schtupp

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2007, 10:26:58 am »
I think the points been made so lets get the thread back on the rails hence:

I have all of the models (76 or so) from the original Wingcommander game in 3ds. Wonderfully lo poly as you would expect for a game that came out in 1991. I cant recall if SFC1 supports fighters or not as most of the models are of course fighters (Arrow, Wraith, Banshee- theyre all here), but if somebody wants to convert these for this mod (or whatever) I would be happy to send them. I would really like to see them used. They are already textured too (BMPs mostly).

Hmm now that I recall they might be from Wingcommander 3 - anyway should be good for something


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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2007, 10:48:48 am »
Low poly is not the real solution to smooth game play here, 3-8k poly models work really well on low end machines as well if the textures are done right.

You limit the colour range to the 8 or 4 bit area which is only about 256 colours or less, make the textures less detailed and smaller say 256x256. You would see even high poly models work well, and very smooth game play. Most of this would have been fairly smiple to do for some of those ppl mentioned above as WZ has started to do that one a few of his models already. Also if you save the said textures as PCX and not BMP you get a boost also

True 256x256 textures work much better on the lower end machines, I know cuase right now I have a pretty low end machine. big effect on gameplay. But if there is an existing model that wants to be added and we all know its a real pain to remap textures, I would open an SFC1 texture in photoshop from whatever race and simply adjust hue and/or color balance on the model to be added to match the stock textures of that race. Cheng wants the models to look uniform (and I can certainly dig that) I think this method would be by far the easiest to meet that requirement.

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2007, 04:53:01 pm »
I generally prefer the Klingons in the original slate grey as shown in TOS and SFB.

Green is more the livery for the TMP period, but is a different green to the one used on the Klingon ships is a lighter shade.

TOS Fed ships are US Navy ghost grey, though by TMP, this has lightened up to a more whiter colour or grey.

The TOS and TMP Fed ships are pretty uniform due to Star Fleet's modular design policy, to aid supply and logistics. This seems to have gone out of the window by the TNG period.

Starship, like aircraft, millitary and civilian, have always been built around whatever new powerplants that had been developed. That's how aviation has progressed throughout current history.

In Trek star ship designs are built around the latest Warp Nacelles and the size of the Warp Core that powers them (or it, in the case of single nachelles).

In TOS, for the Feds, there is the PB32 through to PB47 series of nachelles, with LN64 for the TMP period, the LN50 nachelles for the TMP to pre-TNG period, but in TNG and after anything seems to go for Fed star ship nacelles.

The thing is the millitary doesn't diversify as it makes logistics, maintainance and re-supply a nightmare. They evaluate the most efficient designs, select what they're happy  with and build their logistics systems to serve these designs.

Thankfully, the Klingons have stuck with the S-Graph nachelle design from the D6 shown in ENT through to TNG, but have also introduced newer nachelle designs in parallel.

The Romulans, er, well they're on a technological learning curve quest, as they start out well behind the other races in the Warp Technology race. They're still using Sub Atomic Impulse Power to power their Warp Drive in early TOS episodes and buy in MAM technology from the Klingons, which they then have to disect and learn the science of even through to TMP. By TNG they seem to have it well figured out.

The Gorns.... again a Modular design philosiphy, though their nachelle design allows entended length as extra Warp Coil sections are added as required, which is a good concept. SFB has introduced the "Broad Hull" designs which are standard hulls built with a centre section to "stretch" them width wise, in order to keep up or ahead of the ISC.

The Kzinti have the same extendable nachelle design dating from pre-ENT through to TOS, which means that they're rapidly falling behind in Warp Technology, as a nachelle can only be extended with additional coils so far. The general need for three nachelles on Kzinti warships.

However Mudd's TMP cruiser has dragged Kzinti into the 23rd century as far as Warp technology goes, and hopefully a whole new TMP Kzinti fleet will spring from ths new design.

The Tholians are limited by their shipyards being only to build Police cruiser sized hulls that have to be welded together to build larger ships.

However, they can build Dreadnaught command sections, so perhaps new designs would develop around secondary hulls to power these.

The Lyrans.... again they extend their nachelles as and when required but are are also less Warp technologically backwards than the Kzinti, though this doesn't give any adtvantage over them.

The WYN are unable to develop their own technology and so have to rely on what Warp technology that their neighbours will trade with them.

The ISC.... well developed and advanced. All ships built to a formula rather than a modular design. It has proven to be successful for them.

The Orions are also limited in Warp technology and this limits their star ship designs. Unable to gain new technology from other races, due to the other races not liking them, and that star ships captured in battle are usually so badly damaged that gaining Warp Nachelles and Cores through this route fails. However, they were able to recover the secondary hull of a D6 after a lucky hit destroyed the neck and detached the command section. The non-Klingons promptly mutinied and surendered the secondary hull to the Orions. In the Orion shipyards a Battleraider hull, complete with Warp Drive (for seperation and power), was added and the OK6 came to be.

However, the Orions aren't capable of duplicating the S-Graph engines or Warp Core.

However, concocting interested Orion star ships attached or powered by various various parts liberated from other races.

I can see the point though, that the Feds do seem to be lacking any sensible design polcy with all the TNG models that are appearing. There seem to be a lack of uniformity though a vague formula seems to exist. Nachelles, however, seem to be varied and non-uniform on most.

I would expect Fed TNG runabout design to use the same nachelles as other runabouts in service.

Having uniform colour schemes for the right period for a race.

At least the Kzinti / Mirak have the same uniform rust colour.

The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

Offline GotAFarmYet?

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2007, 05:54:55 pm »
Hi,
I'm making a mod for SFC1, and I hope it can run on some really old PCs. Therefore I want to ask if anyone is interested in remake some of the stock SFC models, e.g. fca, fcl, kff.

Here comes some Limitations:
1)1000~1500 polygons is prefered. It would be better if you can make it in less than 1000. (That's why I call it a challenge.:P)
2)Use stock textures as possible. Or add extra textures if necessary but still based on stock textures. (I want all ships looks consistant in art design.)

Example: the Akula Class which made by Mr_Tricorder in this tutorial:
http://starfleetcommand3.filefront.com/file/Starship_Texturing_Tutorial;42970

If you're interested, please post your reply or WIP here, or you may PM me.:)

Thanks,

You-Cheng Hsieh


You Never stated what era you are makingthis mod for
People always said they wanted the government to listen to them and now the government is listening, taking notes and names...and coming to see you soon!

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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2007, 06:29:40 pm »
The oldest PC here is a P3 650 Mhz. which copes OK with even MP's models.

However, we've found that in LAN games running 18 ships, the larger the number of high poly models the slower the game becomes.

If running a FMSE scripted scenario it is possible to add in even more ships up to 5 x computer players with up to 6 ships each plus 6 x human players with up to 6 x ships, so it is possible to reduce the game t a snail's pace with enough high poly models.

A low poly count model idea sounds like a good idea, now that FMSE exists and allows more than the SFC 1 or SFC 2 game standard allocation of ships in game.

I've been trimming off excessive polys on some of my models used in LAN games which seemed to speed up the games a lot.

Basically any polys that are buried out of sight inside another model part don't need to be there.

The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

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Re: Is anyone interested in taking low-poly challenge?
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2007, 08:14:43 pm »
Basically any polys that are buried out of sight inside another model part don't need to be there.

Models with geometry that is only visible inside the model itself (with the exception of models that you can fly inside of) should not exist and it's considered good practice (as far as I am aware) to remove such elements prior to texturing/mapping - if not certainly before releasing!

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