Topic: The death of Dungeon and Dragon.

[Javora]

I was strolling around the local bookstores today and saw that both Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine have released their final issues.  This is the first time I heard about it and needless to say at first I was a little surprised and sad.  I used to love AD&D when I was younger and still miss it from time to time.  I won't play the new rule sets, if I want to play that I'll just pop the Neverwinter disk in the system.  Not sure if anyone else knew about this or not but I know that others here used to or still play the game so I thought I'd post about this and listen to your thoughts.  Anyway you can read more about the how and why here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20070419a

April 19, 2007 (BELLEVUE, Wash.) – Paizo Publishing and Wizards of the Coast today announced the conclusion of Paizo’s license to produce DRAGON and DUNGEON magazines effective September 2007. Publication of DRAGON and DUNGEON will cease with issues number 359 and 150, respectively.

“Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information,” said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager of Dungeons & Dragons®, Wizards of the Coast. “By moving to an online model we are using a delivery system that broadens our reach to fans around the world. Paizo has been a great partner to us over the last several years. We wish them well on their future endeavors.”

"We at Paizo are very proud of the work we’ve put into DRAGON and DUNGEON during the past five years," says Erik Mona, Paizo's Publisher and Editor in Chief of DRAGON. "While we'll all miss working on these venerable magazines, our talented editorial and art staff as well as our phenomenal team of freelance contributors will continue to produce high-quality, exciting, new OGL releases that are aimed at supporting our existing customers and beyond. We look forward to sharing useful and provocative new products that support our favorite hobby."

Subscribers should visit paizo.com/transition to learn more about the future of their subscriptions. Multiple options will be available for customers whose subscriptions extend beyond the final issues of the magazines. The final issues will be DRAGON #359 and DUNGEON #150—both of which will contain special content commemorating the history of these incredible magazines. The Savage Tide Adventure Path will conclude as planned in DUNGEON #150.

Paizo will continue to publish its popular GameMastery line of RPG accessories, including a new line of monthly OGL adventure modules beginning in June with Nicolas Logue's Crown of the Kobold King.

Paizo Publishing spun off from Wizards of the Coast's periodicals department in 2002. In its five years as publisher of DRAGON and DUNGEON, Paizo introduced popular features such as The Shackled City, Age of Worms, and Savage Tide Adventure Paths, the Demonomicon of Iggwilv, Core Beliefs, and Critical Threats. Paizo published three official DUNGEONS & DRAGONS hardcover books—The Shackled City Adventure Path, The DRAGON Compendium, and The Art of DRAGON Magazine. In five years of publishing DRAGON and DUNGEON, Paizo received twelve Gen Con EN World RPG Awards (ENnies) and the 2004 Origins Award for Best Gaming Related Periodical.

[Commander Maxillius]

WHEW!!  I thought you were going to say they were ending support for the whole thing instead of just the print magazines.

[Capt. Mike]

                                


         

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCge-g1MO3A

 


This is why it died

Mike

[Dash Jones]

Well...sort of.  D&D ended in 2001 with the release of D20 Fantasy which was invented by three authors who did include a few elements of AD&D so they could slap on the production line name of D&D onto it so it would actually sell to those who had no idea what AD&D was really supposed to be like.

Heck, I wasn't even that old yet and I knew that!

But then they always claimed the European kids caught on the shysters like that a lot quicker than the American kids who went all gung ho about it...

Though D&D 3.5 does have it's odd charm.

Now of course it's going to be D&D 4e that's coming out, probably everywhere in the US and nowhere anywhere else for a few months later...probably.

Supposedly they are cutting back to 8 classes, 7 of which may be typical classes and a possible new one called the Warlord, as well as keeping skills mandatory, but working entirely different, and doing away with the Vancian type spellcasting as you know it to be replaced by a per encounter type spellcasting...at least for Wizards.

All courtesy of the rumor mill of course.

[Abfalter]

The D&D rule system, IMHO, is being driven now by computer game influence. 

Per-encounter systems are similar to MMO's and many RPG rest systems.  Take NWN1&2 --you can 'rest' for hours between each battle so that each battle you start fresh.  That is how people expect to play RPGs on computer games and that is how the D&D rules are morphing to conform.

[Tulwar]

Imho, D&D died when Gary Gygax lost control of the franchise.  Not that I think it was a perfect system back in its heyday, but Gygax seem classically educated and inventive.  Everything I've seen since looks like cooperate bull manurer, trying to follow the trends in other gaming systems.  I haven't played in twenty years, but that's what it looks like just skimming though the books.

[Sirgod]

Gygax was the man who got royaly screwed by the same Empire he helped to build. It's been a few years since I've played, but I would love to have a first or second ed. Game going.

Stephen

[Hexx]

Meh
We gave up DnD just before 3rd came out, have glanced over the (core) 3.5 books and they don't look half bad.
(I don't know about all the otehr books- looks like ther must be a hundred classes now)
I'd considered getting back into it until theis 4th ed thing came out, really doesn't look intersting t all.

[Nemesis]

I do miss playing D&D myself. 

My characters all tended to be viewed as "trouble makers" for some reason.    Even when they did "the impossible" and saved the day (as happened quite often). 

Just an example of one character I had: 

A Fire Elementalist (18 Int, 8 Wis) with a pathological fear of water.  Near the end of our last campaign I traded an "experimental" spell to the groups lead wizard (an Invoker).  I neglected to mention some details.  The spell was a fireball variant with a range of 0 and a cylindrical hole in the center sized for my (5' 4") Elementalist (t was my "anti-vermin" spell).  The Invoker was 6'2".  I did warn him that it was experimental and I hadn't worked all the "bugs" out.  He wasn't amused.

[Sirgod]

I do miss playing D&D myself. 

My characters all tended to be viewed as "trouble makers" for some reason.    Even when they did "the impossible" and saved the day (as happened quite often). 

Just an example of one character I had: 

A Fire Elementalist (18 Int, 8 Wis) with a pathological fear of water.  Near the end of our last campaign I traded an "experimental" spell to the groups lead wizard (an Invoker).  I neglected to mention some details.  The spell was a fireball variant with a range of 0 and a cylindrical hole in the center sized for my (5' 4") Elementalist (t was my "anti-vermin" spell).  The Invoker was 6'2".  I did warn him that it was experimental and I hadn't worked all the "bugs" out.  He wasn't amused.

That's just evil Nemesis. I was the DM for our group for about 12 long years.

We played around with alot of rule changes, and one day, they came to me wanting the game to be more realistic.

So the first Tavern they came to, I made the beds out of Straw, the inficting lice proved a problem for a long time with the party.

Another time, My best friend Mike Sumrall played a Paladin. anyway, this group of thieves sneak into camp, and still there backpacks, the Intripid paladin, who was doing Firewatch, saw them, and yelled at the group, and set chase.

One thief managed to grab one bag, and in the ultimate Battle, the Paladin fiercly slew him on a cliffs edge, where the thief fell a gazzilion feet into a raging river never to be seen again.

Unfortuanatly, He took the bag with him, that held his Armor key.

Now the Paladin, is two weeks away from the nearest Outpost, stuck in his armor, and well Toilet use becomes a large problem. It was funny watching his team trying to pry apart his +5 Platemail, just so he could go PeePee.

soon after, they decided they had enough Realism in the game.

Stephen

[Nemesis]

That's just evil Nemesis. I was the DM for our group for about 12 long years.

Stephen

Here is a story from my DMing. 

The group rounds a corner on a forest path and sees a barricade of trees manned by Kobolds, its not very high and there is a low spot in the center  They smell smoke.  A tree then falls across the path behind them.  The groups lead fighter decides to jump the barricade at the low spot and take the fight to the kobolds.  He found out the hard way that behind the low spot was a pit with a very large pot of boiling water and vegetables on a cooking fire when he landed in it.  Instant stew.

Now that is evil.   

For some reason in my campaigns the most feared monsters were Kobolds.  Small.  Weak.  Sneaky.

[Nemesis]

Information on the NEXT Never Winter Nights.

[Sirgod]

There was an article years ago, IN Dragon Magazine, about Tuckers Kobolds. It involved natural cunning that the Kobolds had, to develop Traps and ambushes for any party. I did a course on DMing way back a few decades ago, and I used this as an example of how to use the Monsters instincts as a viable plot.

I think someone here also posted this article a few years ago.

also thanks for the Link on NWN.

Stephen

[Nemesis]

Back when the "Tuckers Kobolds" letter was published my players accused me of writing it as the Kobolds were used in my style.  I was innocent of course. 

I try to get into the mindset of the creature/character I'm portraying and Kobolds just have to be sneaky and avoid direct combat as much as possible or they would be extinct.  So that is the way I play them.

Here is another one (10th level team).  Sent to clean the Kobolds out of a mine.

On the way there they encounter a Kobold customs post in a clearing.  They get suspicious when the Kobolds are driven off too easily.  Since it was late in the day and they were looking for a camp site they decide to stop in the clearing. 

One checks out the customs shed.  Outside the door was a pit trap with a path around it.  Inside he found several very large barrels of wine, extremely low quality wine.  Nothing suspicious.  So he (and no one else) decides to sleep in the shed.  Things of course are not quite as they appear.  The barrels were only half full and behind the spigot inside the barrel was a small keg of wine with a tube leading up to a vent to let in air, the rest of the contents was very flamable oil from an oil seepage the Kobolds encountered in their mining.  The shed also had a basement but the only entrance was through a tunnel outside the clearing.  Inside the basement were more barrels of oil.  In the middle of the night the kobolds opened the spigots on the basement barrels and left a candle.  BOOM!.  The flaming oil covered character barely remembered the pit trap in time to not fall into it, which would have been fatal.   

The group then went on to the Kobold mines and after taking 2 casualties (drowned) without definitely killing any kobolds they decided to leave the kobolds to someone else.  The guy who fell for the customs shed (after ressurection as he was a drowning victim) eventually went back and cleaned out the whole complex alone.  He finally started thinking like the kobolds and avoided or reversed all their planned traps and ambushes.

[Sirgod]

That's It, I will now refer to you as Deacon from this day.

Deacon being the Kobold in NWN 1.

Stephen

[Nemesis]

I have non kobold stories too you know.  Dragons for example.  Especially in 1st Edition my players always asked "is it a standard dragon or one of yours?".  I felt the standard dragons were far too weak and created my own based on the originals.

The group investigates reports of a series of night attacks by a Red Dragon.  They find that where the dragon breathed fire on something that would leave a scorch mark in the shape of the attack it is always round not oval as you would expect but don't recognize the significance.  They find some scales (red) that detect of weak magic but don't try to dispel it.  Ultimately they find the lair.  A cave in a sloping cliff.  It has defenses manned by humanoids.  Four guard towers connected by walls.  Two of the towers are on top of the cliff.  They use up all their fire spells killing off the guards.

Shortly after the fireballs and so forth go off out of the cave comes THE DRAGON!  It is very large and its front feet are flaming (using the fists of flame spell one of my own characters had developed ).  Multiple lightning bolts and cones of cold strike it - and go right through.  It is a projected image.  With greatly depleted spells they know that they have problems but charge in and fight "the dragon", eventually killing it.  They go over the treasure and capture two small infant dragons.  But they think "is this it?  Shouldn't the treasure be larger?" and detect magic, finding two magical walls opposite one another.  Just as they go to dispell the walls one of the characters examines the dragon corpse and says "Guys ITS MELTING!", they had fought a simulacrum of a dragon.  The real dragon was still alive somewhere and they were running low on everything but lightning spells which left them okay as they were fighting a Red Dragon right?    The dispels take down the walls and behind each wall is a Dragon, the one they were hunting and its mate.  The dispels ALSO removed the colour cantrip and revealed that they were in fact BLUE, so much for their good supply of lightning spells.

Ultimately they killed both dragons by a hair, some characters were down but not out.  The real young dragons were captured by the Th/Mu they left outside though her dragon slaying short sword, magic hand axe and ring of wizardry were all destroyed.  The treasure replaced the sword and axe but not the ring.

The simulacra infants were used to pull a PC illusionists chariot when he went to town and the young dragons were raised to be guards of the teams mansion.

[Soreyes]

Does anyone remember Little Idi Snitman and his Kobold Commandos?

Idi was a Kobold that was sneaking out of a sewer pipe in some large city, when he came upon a mage that was passed out drunk. Idi dispatched the Mage, and took what he could find. His take was a small bag of holding, and within the bag he found 12 rings of Feather falling, +2 ring of protection, and the keys to the city's brewery. The ring of protection he kept, along with the bag of holding and 1 ring of Feather Falling. With the use of the aforementioned Brewery keys Idi became a much heralded member of the local Kobod Comunity. He had 11 loyal followers who would do anything he said (as long as the free beer kept coming) Idi gave each of his loyal members a Ring of feather falling, and hired himself and his group out to the highest bider. There main form of attack was to ride giant bats, and to attack unwary travelers on the outlining roads at night from above. It is said that Idi and his merrier band of Kobolds have never actually killed any one. Mainly because there so drunk that most of the time, they miss there landing point.

It is also said that a very powerfull God protects them due to there high entertainment value.

[Nemesis]

Can't say I remember Idi.

At one point the players kept encountering the same Kobold (who always escaped alive - often the sole survivor) which had the players claiming he was a wizard.  It was actually initially multiple different Kobolds from random encounters but the players were convinced it was the same Kobold so I went with that .  So I wrote him up as a wizard.  Later he inspired me to create a new tribe of Kobold "abominations" that explained his existence. 

One of my players kept insisting that it was "impossible" for there to be a Kobold wizard.  So I made a list of methods by which a Kobold wizard could be justified.  The last of the rules was the one that stated that the DM could do whatever he liked in terms of adjusting things .  It did get me to create an origin for this "super" kobold wizard (with wild psionic powers as well).

The idea was that when the time of troubles began a powerful wizard had enslaved a small tribe of Kobolds.  One of his spells surged as the time of troubles began and merged the wizard and the kobolds.  The tribal shaman was closest and got most of his magical powers.  The tribe as a whole became physically larger and more intelligent.  This all happened as a gods avatar was destroyed by Bane and the shaman was able to seize some of its power and was on the verge of becoming a demi god as a result.

The "god" took his worshipers to a mountain complex in the far east of Damara that the wizard was using as his main home and base of operations.  Which included an extensive wizards library and research setup.  Everything needed to train the wizards of the new Kobold type.  If I was to use this under 3rd edition I would make them sorcerers instead.

Under their shaman leader (and new god) the idea was that they set out to learn and kidnapped various humans and demi-humans from outlying areas to teach them.  They also enslaved normal kobolds to do the day to day works as the "super" kobolds were busy developing new skills and abilities.  Ultimately the shaman intended to take them all to space and hide out in the Tears of Selene asteroids as they increased their numbers.  The new Kobold demi-god was going to do everything in his power to ensure the survival and increase of his former tribe and new worshipers.

Investigating the kidnappings and associated raids is where the PCs would come in.  Unfortunately I never did get to use my new kobolds .  The players would have found these Kobolds much better equipped with more magical abilities and more willing and able to get up close and personal.  The kobolds would have character classes, fighters, thieves etc.  It should have confused my players, especially if the escape to space came off.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Imho, D&D died when Gary Gygax lost control of the franchise.  Not that I think it was a perfect system back in its heyday, but Gygax seem classically educated and inventive.  Everything I've seen since looks like cooperate bull manurer, trying to follow the trends in other gaming systems.  I haven't played in twenty years, but that's what it looks like just skimming though the books.

Bingo!

[Ferretlxix_XC]

Imho, D&D died when Gary Gygax lost control of the franchise.  Not that I think it was a perfect system back in its heyday, but Gygax seem classically educated and inventive.  Everything I've seen since looks like cooperate bull manurer, trying to follow the trends in other gaming systems.  I haven't played in twenty years, but that's what it looks like just skimming though the books.

I have to strongly agree.  2nd edition was promising but the book after must have bboks became tiresome and teh 3rd edition...well. I'm not getting into that.

I.C.E.  lost thier big publishing status when the previouse owner ran them into bankrupcy.  Now under a new managment they are a small company working back up with a new buisness model.  Rolemaster was a good game but too many charts and their HARP system is truely dynamic.  I suggest you check them out and if you'd like a PDF of the rules for review, message me or email me.