Topic: Mint Linux - the Linux I now recommend

[Nemesis]

I recently found 2 Linux Distribtutions that play DVDs and MP3s "out of the box".   Vector Linux and Linux Mint.

Both are non American and therefore don't have to worry about software patents.  Americans downloading and using them would of course be breaking U.S. laws by violating patents.

I tested Vector on my laptop and Mint on my Desktop.  I preferred Mint overall and am using it on both now.  The key element was that Mint handled the networking best.

Mint plays DVDs and is able to "Skip" things like ads and the FBI warning, which of course the MPAA doesn't like but I'm in Canada and its legal here.  One odd thing with the DVDs is I don't see a "rewind" option in either player I've tried.  I insert the DVD and it appears on the desktop and a window opens offering me alternatives as to what I want to do.  Play it, rip it, access the disk normally or copy. 

I've played MP3s, even used two different programs to simultaneously play the same one - it worked without interference though naturally it sounded a little odd. 

I can easily access my Win 2000 Pro machines network shares, no harder than another Windows machine. 

My Digital Camera can have its memory card accessed even though it is not a supported model (which is all I want anyhow).

Firefox and Thunderbird are preinstalled.  I'm using Firefox on Mint to post this and I think that this will now be my main Web browsing machine.  I'm going to have to see how migrating my Thunderbird configuration works, I don't want to lose my E-mail archives and configured spam filters.  The Windows machine will soon I think be relegated to only gaming.  I'll have to see how well OpenOffice is working under Mint but it should not be an issue.

The multiple desktops are nice though they are not configured quite the way they were on OpenSuse.  On OpenSuse the taskbar displayed a set of squares and you would click on the relevant one.  Mint has an arrow you click on then choose the program, alternately you point the mouse at the desktop and the scroll wheel is used to scroll through the desktops.  The built in multiple desktops is one thing I really like with Linux.

I haven't yet made my Palm M130 connect though.  It seems to be an issue with identifying the correct USB port.

Configuring my monitor to (Desktop) 2048 x 1536 (which the monitor is capable of) results in a "virtual" desktop of that size but you have to scroll the screen to see it all.  So I'm using 1600 x 1200 for now.  The 3D special effects work (using the ATI proprietary driver). I just installed on the Laptop and haven't experimented with it much but it identified the correct screen modes and is working at max resolution.  (Vector linux didn't but I didn't try the proprietary drivers with it as I did with Mint).  I'll have to play with Beryl (the 3D system) to get things configured to MY desires.  Some of the 3D serves no real purpose and others may serve purposes I just don't recognize (probably like Aero on Vista).  Installing the proprietary drivers is effortless using a program called Envy.  Envy apparently works for both ATi (which these 2 machines have) and nVidea.  Envy will identify your card and download the correct driver. 

Mint does not seem to handle the Microsoft .wav file however.  I haven't bothered trying to work around that.

Mint on installing did not wipe the 2nd HD but didn't handle the file system so it was inacessable.  When I did a general update it corrected that so I still have all my old files still accesible and don't need to worry about using the backups.  No reboot after the update either. 

Vector Linux

Vector Linux is based on the venerable Slackware distribution and is not as "slick" as Mint. 

Linux Mint

Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu (Ubuntu is itself based on Debian one of the big free distributions).  Mint being derived from Ubuntu is based on the version before last not the most recent one.  It can use the Ubuntu repositories though without issue.  I think it can also handle the Debian repostitories.  Anything that runs on Ubuntu should work on Mint.

[Lepton]

How about streaming content over the web?  Has Mint addressed these issues?  If one can't effectively and easily view and hear streams over the web under Linux, then I really can't see making any switch.  As much as I like Linux, it's just not very practical for the things I do.  I also find these derived distributions to be quite odd especially when derived from Ubuntu, which itself is derived from Debian.  I have a copy of Mint that I received with a Linux magazine and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I would install it if it is merely an Ubuntu distro.

How does Mint implement DVD playback?  Are they using an existing app like VLC or Totem or something else?

[Lepton]

And I guess another dumb question would be, how does Mint really differ from Ubuntu?  If you can do with Ubuntu what you can do with Mint, why bother?

[Lepton]

From what I can tell, they are using the mplayer plugin for the default for streaming content in Firefox.  Last time, I used this it was dodgy at best (and that was in Ubuntu Feisty, I believe) and probably continues to be so.  I wish these guys had spent less time packaging up Beryl and Compiz for this distro and actually worked on a solution for something that everyone does, i.e. listening to streaming content via web browser.

[Nemesis]

How about streaming content over the web?  Has Mint addressed these issues?  If one can't effectively and easily view and hear streams over the web under Linux, then I really can't see making any switch.  As much as I like Linux, it's just not very practical for the things I do.  I also find these derived distributions to be quite odd especially when derived from Ubuntu, which itself is derived from Debian.  I have a copy of Mint that I received with a Linux magazine and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I would install it if it is merely an Ubuntu distro.

How does Mint implement DVD playback?  Are they using an existing app like VLC or Totem or something else?

I'm on dialup so I have never bothered with streaming media as its too slow to be practical for extended use.

Which streaming media are you particularly interested in?  I could make some time at some point and try it with the laptop on my mothers broadband (which is how I downloaded Mint in the first place).  I just did a limited test on a YouTube video and it works (Adobe Flash V8).

It comes with Kaffeine (I'm using the "Cassandra KDE Community Edition") preinstalled and I have used it and VLC that I downloaded from their repository to play DVDs.  I've tested Amarok, VLC and Mplayer for MP3s.

And I guess another dumb question would be, how does Mint really differ from Ubuntu?  If you can do with Ubuntu what you can do with Mint, why bother?

What they do that Ubuntu does is not worry about distributing to the U.S. so they are able to use things that in the U.S. are covered by software patents  They are also willing to bundle tools to install proprietary drivers as "Envy" which I mentioned.  Ubuntu seems to be doing like most free versions and avoiding the proprietary drivers. 

Derived versions are mostly about doing something the original doesn't.  Ubuntu is derived from Debian but it focuses on ease of use combined with being more up to date.  Debian focuses on stable and a broad array of platforms that everything works on.

Of course this isn't for everyone.  But then again neither is Windows.   

One thing with the Mint that I used is when I had it on the laptop I was able to boot off the DVD and access the network and browse the web without installing.  So a lot of things can be tested to see if they work for you as is.  Not everything as it uses "default" drivers rather than the best for your machine and is slowed by running off the DVD rather than a HD which is much faster.  So limited testing can be done without installing and is pretty painless.  You might try it for you Ubuntu disk as Ubuntu does exist in a Live version that you can test your streaming media with.

[Nemesis]

The details of my Mint Linux desktop.  Not eactly up to date.  Not even 64bit.

PC 1
Dual Athlon 2400XP (modded to MP)
ASUS motherboard
512meg RAM PC 2100
2x 120 GB Maxtor
CD/RW
DVD/RW
Radeon 9000 128MB
NEC MultiSync FP1370 22" monitor (shared with PC 3)
Mitsumi keyboard (shared with PC 3)
400 Watt Antec PSU

The Mint site says "more than 512mb" but I have only 512mb and it seems to work well for me.  The laptop has 1gb and may work better but I haven't played with it very much yet under Mint as I just installed it yesterday so I can't actually say.  By next weekend I should have done some playing with the laptop.

[Nemesis]

Here is a link to project being worked on for Ubuntu.  If it is made to work well enough I'm sure other distributions will grab it quite quickly.  Based on some of your older complaints about Linux you may be interested.

Ubuntu Xorg maintainer demonstrates bulletproof X

Ubuntu Xorg maintainer Bryce Harrington recently demonstrated the BulletProof-X feature that is planned for inclusion in Ubuntu 7.10. BulletProof-X provides a failsafe mode which will ensure that users never have to manually configure their graphics hardware settings from the command line.

ne of the most impressive new features in Ubuntu's BulletProof-X implementation is support for reading monitor settings from a Windows driver CD. "Unfortunately, it doesn't work to select just any of the generic monitors, so users may find they need to trial-and-error a solution. Fortunately, there is a cool new feature—Add Model which allows users to add a new monitor by using the Windows driver CD that comes with their monitor," Harrington writes. "This uses a script to parse the Windows *.inf file to get the hsync, vsync, edid, dpms, and other info to update the database locally."

[Lepton]

BulletProof-X is a good start, but this really should have been done years ago.  Why you may ask?  Because the bar has been set so much higher now for people's expectations of how graphically intense Linux computing should be.  If you're not running Beryl or Compiz, you're not in the cool kids club.  I know I will take a hit for this but Aero works fairly well and without any need for configuration.  The same cannot be said of Beryl and Compiz stuff, despite the fact that Vista and Linux may be running on exactly the same hardware.

Now I really couldn't care less about these features.  I shut Aero off almost immediately as I could see it was a resource hog and really adding nothing to my computing experience.  When I was running Ubuntu Feisty, I turned on the simple desktop effects that the distro included and found it merely distracting and pointless.  Those went off as well.  That said, people looking to use Linux I think have an expectation of using those effects.  The fact that Linux is just getting to the point where it has a safe mode is a kind of disappointing but long need milestone to be reached.  If and when Beryl/Compix stuff is "bullet-proof" and/or so stable that it is the default, then things will have gotten somewhere.

This is something that has always bothered me with Linux, the X-windows system, and the fact that one could break it.  It seemed as if for the most part that it is a mature technology so why was it never made less user-proof?  There are a number of things in Linux that seem this way.  Instead of focusing on a stable, workable, and user-proof distro, things keep rushing forward before the basics are worked out.  Heck, I even had to edit manually my x-org config file just to get the right resolution for my laptop LCD, and this was with Feisty, the latest and greatest Ubuntu.  To the degree that things like that occur is to the same degree that Linux is not going to gain a substantial foothold in the desktop market.  They, whoever they are, need to think more about everyday computer users and not Linux hobbyists.

[Nemesis]

BulletProof-X is a good start, but this really should have been done years ago.  Why you may ask?  Because the bar has been set so much higher now for people's expectations of how graphically intense Linux computing should be.  If you're not running Beryl or Compiz, you're not in the cool kids club.  I know I will take a hit for this but Aero works fairly well and without any need for configuration.  The same cannot be said of Beryl and Compiz stuff, despite the fact that Vista and Linux may be running on exactly the same hardware.

You may notice I said "to get things configured to MY desires".  If this were any version of Windows Iwould be saying the same.  As one minor example I like the task bar on the left and to hide when I'm not actually using it.  I like to see an entire document when I'm editing it and wasting the bottom of the screen on the taskbar isannoying when I have extra width but lack height for my way of doing things.

I decided to try Beryl just to see what it was like not because I actually expect to use it.  The system as delivered was fully functional but I want it to work my way.  Fortunately the system has no objections to my controlling my own computer.

Does Vista install Aero automatically or do you have a choice to leave it off?  I would imagine that on a marginal or less than marginal system turning it off could try your patience.  With Mint Beryl has to be chosen post installation then if your system can't handle it you can only blame yourself. 

Now I really couldn't care less about these features.  I shut Aero off almost immediately as I could see it was a resource hog and really adding nothing to my computing experience.  When I was running Ubuntu Feisty, I turned on the simple desktop effects that the distro included and found it merely distracting and pointless.  Those went off as well.  That said, people looking to use Linux I think have an expectation of using those effects.  The fact that Linux is just getting to the point where it has a safe mode is a kind of disappointing but long need milestone to be reached.  If and when Beryl/Compix stuff is "bullet-proof" and/or so stable that it is the default, then things will have gotten somewhere.

I haven't actually noticed a performance hit from Beryl and as you can see the hardware is not exactly up to date.

In spite of what people have said this is not really a "safe mode" in the sense of Windows.  It is a video installer mode only.  One designed to allow  you to gracefully handle failed or faulty hardware detection.  That I will agree is a nice and argurably needed feature. 

This is something that has always bothered me with Linux, the X-windows system, and the fact that one could break it.  It seemed as if for the most part that it is a mature technology so why was it never made less user-proof?  There are a number of things in Linux that seem this way.  Instead of focusing on a stable, workable, and user-proof distro, things keep rushing forward before the basics are worked out.  Heck, I even had to edit manually my x-org config file just to get the right resolution for my laptop LCD, and this was with Feisty, the latest and greatest Ubuntu.  To the degree that things like that occur is to the same degree that Linux is not going to gain a substantial foothold in the desktop market.  They, whoever they are, need to think more about everyday computer users and not Linux hobbyists.

We had this discussion once before and as I pointed out then I personally have never seen the X-Window system break (though I acknowledge it can happen) but I have seen the Windows GUI fail repeatedly.  I think that they are even on that.  I also gave you examples from Microsoft of having to use regedit to fix XP and Vista both which is to my view much worse as you can much more easily back up (and restore) the X-Org config file than the entire registry, at least in my experience. 

One thing I see with Mint is that unlike the OpenSuse I was using they have the monitor resolution controlled under system settings and you need the administrator password.  That keeps the "kids" or employees from messing with it and breaking things.  Argurably better than the "let anyone mess with it" that OpenSuse and Windows default to.

I would still like to know what streaming media you use that doesn't work under Linux.  It would make an interesting test for the laptop. 

[Nemesis]

Here is a nice feature of the Dolphin file manager in KDE.  I was looking at thumbnails of some pictures I took and right clicked on it to see what programs I could open them with.  One of the options is "transform" it allows rotating the image to the correct orientation and since I had taken some pictures of a tower in portrait mode I tried it, it works and the files is then saved in that mode.

It also allows me to convert to multiple other formats.  JPEG, PNG, GIF and TIF without using an image viewer or manipulation program. 

A nice pair of features that I definitely didn't expect.  Maybe next version it will be able to scale them for me. 

[Lepton]

Aero is available in any Vista OS except Home Basic, so it does install automatically.  And it is very easy to shut off.  Right Click->Personalize->Window Color and Appearance->Windows Vista Basic.  That's it.

I wouldn't expect a performance hit with Beryl/Compiz.  That is certainly to Linux's credit.  I've seen youtube videos of people running it on old hardware.  This is why in part that I say that running these types of desktop effects have become the expectation, but I think if you check out the Mint Linux support forums, you will still see that people are having significant problems configuring and using Beryl/Compiz.

As to the streaming media I have had problems with: any thing Windows Media based of course, Real content, mp3s, Flash-based content. Take your pick.  And to be clear, I have had the most trouble with embedded web content.  Go to a site that wants to invoke some sort of embedded player via a plugin such as the mplayer-plugin and problems ensue.  And last time I checked one didn't even have any playback controls with the mplayer-plugin.  Additionally, for some time, there wasn't even a current version of Flash available for Linux such that any Flash-based site or content did not work correctly.  Invariably with embedded media player web pages, I had to figure out ways to obtain the direct ip address for the stream if I could obtain it and try to access the stream directly through a media player, either Helix player, VLC, Mplayer, what-have-you.  Needless to say, it was a pain.  I even had a plugin installed that gave a listing of all the embedded content links, but that didn't seem help either.

I appreciate that you like the flexibility and freedom of Linux, but I think that is typical of the Linux hobbyist.  Most people just want things to work and will settle for what is given if it is easier to use.  That's your typical Windows user.

[Nemesis]

Aero is available in any Vista OS except Home Basic, so it does install automatically.  And it is very easy to shut off.  Right Click->Personalize->Window Color and Appearance->Windows Vista Basic.  That's it.

I consider that a design defect.  At present and at the time of realease there are too many systems that just are not capable of functioning properly with Aero (or Beryl I'm sure) installing it by default without an easy bypass before the install is complete is the wrong way to do things.

I wouldn't expect a performance hit with Beryl/Compiz.  That is certainly to Linux's credit.  I've seen youtube videos of people running it on old hardware.  This is why in part that I say that running these types of desktop effects have become the expectation, but I think if you check out the Mint Linux support forums, you will still see that people are having significant problems configuring and using Beryl/Compiz.

Why don't you expect Beryl to be a performance hit when you call Aero (which at least is similar) a "resource hog"?   Why shouldn't Microsoft be able to implement it without a performance hit when the open source community has?

I haven't yet needed the support forums as the only thing currently being an issue is the Palm M130.  Admittedly I haven't tried the printer/scanner unit yet.  Since I am keeping the Windows 2000 Pro system at least for gaming leaving those 2 on the Windows system is not an issue yet.  When I finally leave SFC2 behind then the Windows machine converts to Linux, then those issues will need resolving.  I don't anticipate doing that soon.

As to the streaming media I have had problems with: any thing Windows Media based of course, Real content, mp3s, Flash-based content. Take your pick.  And to be clear, I have had the most trouble with embedded web content.  Go to a site that wants to invoke some sort of embedded player via a plugin such as the mplayer-plugin and problems ensue.  And last time I checked one didn't even have any playback controls with the mplayer-plugin.  Additionally, for some time, there wasn't even a current version of Flash available for Linux such that any Flash-based site or content did not work correctly.  Invariably with embedded media player web pages, I had to figure out ways to obtain the direct ip address for the stream if I could obtain it and try to access the stream directly through a media player, either Helix player, VLC, Mplayer, what-have-you.  Needless to say, it was a pain.  I even had a plugin installed that gave a listing of all the embedded content links, but that didn't seem help either.

I haven't tried any MP3s online yet, the Flash player is from Adobe and should not be an issue.  Adobe only recently seems to have seen their future as including Linux.   Now hopefully they will port more of their software over and support Linux (more specifically the Linux Standards Base).

Windows Media player is different of course.  There  you experience "Vendor Lockin" which Microsoft is a Master of.  The only Linux player I know of for sure is from Linspire and I believe that they support Ubuntu already and therefore it should work in Mint as well.  Naturally you have to pay for it.  Its been a while since I used media player as Microsoft seems to have made enough changes to it that my old version doesn't play the current WMA and I refuse to use the DRM in the newer versions.  Microsoft doesn't consider WM to be an "open standard" they want to control its use. The various deals with Linux companies such as Novell (Suse) and Xandros may make WMA more available.

I have normally avoided the "heavily media laden" sites due to the dial up speed issue so I haven't had that happen yet.  I'll have to try the laptop on my Mothers broadband sometime soon.  It will be interesting to see what happens.  Any particular site that you might suggest to "stress test" it on?

I appreciate that you like the flexibility and freedom of Linux, but I think that is typical of the Linux hobbyist.  Most people just want things to work and will settle for what is given if it is easier to use.  That's your typical Windows user.

Based on the number of people over the years who have seen how I do things (on Windows) and immediately wanted to know how to make Windows work that way I think most people do want to have things customized.  Mostly they just don't know it can be done and are clueless how to make it work.  Even simple things like moving and hiding the task bar seem to be "magic" to many people.

I wouldn't say I qualify as a Linux hobbiest as I don't have the skills or knowledge to work on develpment, I merely want to use Linux.  As Linux gets better and better and WIndows gains more DRM and Windows 2000 has less support I use Linux more and Windows less.  Microsoft has chosen a path that I don't support and won't walk on my own computers.  At work I use what they provide, at home I use what I choose.  There is no need for them to be the same.

As I learn about Linux I find my knowledge of Windows helps.  My knowledge of Linux has also helped me make my Windows system more stable.  I wish Microsoft had long ago cloned the swap partition concept.  Who ever originated that   Also why is it that the Linux file systems never seem to fragment and Windows does?  (Intially Microsoft claimed the NT Filesystem didn't but they were wrong).

[Nemesis]

The Linux Mint Wiki

[Lepton]

I think you misunderstand me.  My expectation is that Aero is a resource hog and makes a performance hit because:

1. it is and it does.  I experienced it.
2. Windows is notorious in this regard for blotted apps and OSes which is the usual Linux line on Windows and tends to be true

I didn't expect a performance hit with Beryl/Compiz because I saw videos of people running it on 1 Ghz or less CPUs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BoU75XKaO8

Should Microsoft be able to make compositing work on such machines?  Sure they should, but I think they are more interested in advancing hardware sales and DX10 than in increasing the value of their product to their customers.

[Lepton]

Or Beryl on a PII 450Mhz processor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Y6F1dSR8A&mode=related&search=

[Nemesis]

Go to a site that wants to invoke some sort of embedded player via a plugin such as the mplayer-plugin and problems ensue.  And last time I checked one didn't even have any playback controls with the mplayer-plugin.

I was just on a site that invoked Mplayer for a 9+mb file (for quicktime).  After the long download it played fine.

The controls can be turned on or off by "right clicking" on the image (or the space reserved for it) and choosing the "Show Controls" option.  I found that out by experimenting. 

The Dolphin file manager if you "right click" on a saved video file and choose properties will let you preview it played as a thumbnail.  A little surprise I didn't expect. 

I tend to right click on things to see what happens obviously.    I find the occasional Gem that way.

[Commander Maxillius]

Downloaded and running, and WOW!!!  Mint looks clean and professional.  It has a feel of 'finished' to it.  Also, my biggest gripe with Linux, installers, has been addressed here.  I got my graphics drivers in and OpenGL screensavers WORK!!!  I'm so happy you found this and posted!!  I've been trying to get this machine working properly for years and now it does! 

[Nemesis]

I'm so happy you found this and posted!!  I've been trying to get this machine working properly for years and now it does! 

This is the Linux that pushes me to using Linux more than Windows.  It even has me thinking of getting more RAM in this machine in spite of my unstable employment situation.  If Mint is working this well with only 512MB of RAM how would it work with more (as recommended)? 

I used to use Win2k on this machine but had to disable the on board sound as it would lock up the system.  So far Mint is handling it without issue.

[Lepton]

I loaded Ubuntu back on my laptop for giggles and also to try to get GRASS GIS working on it.  The mplayer plugin seems to be working better than I remember it working.  I was also able to install flash from firefox instead of having to do it manually.  These are all good things.  As for GRASS, the packages that are available through Ubuntu repositories are nearly 2 years old despite current versions of GRASS being available in Debian sid repositories.  Looks as if I will have to compile from sources. 

This is something else that is a pain in the butt with Linux, this kind of techno-geek environment.  Groups that develop apps for linux don't guarantee compatibility with any particular distro and seem to leave it up to the technical skills of their users to fill in their support gap.  Also with so many distros out there, there isn't a consistent development environment.  Seems to me if you are developing for Windows, you know pretty much what your environment is. 

I mean, seriously, I have never had to compile anything from sources for Windows to merely use an application.  Why is it so for Linux?

[jualdeaux]

This is something else that is a pain in the butt with Linux, this kind of techno-geek environment.  Groups that develop apps for linux don't guarantee compatibility with any particular distro and seem to leave it up to the technical skills of their users to fill in their support gap.  Also with so many distros out there, there isn't a consistent development environment.  Seems to me if you are developing for Windows, you know pretty much what your environment is. 

I mean, seriously, I have never had to compile anything from sources for Windows to merely use an application.  Why is it so for Linux?

And that is my one major complaint. And I still think the one thing that is keeping Linux from taking over major market share from MS.

[Commander Maxillius]

I loaded Ubuntu back on my laptop for giggles and also to try to get GRASS GIS working on it.  The mplayer plugin seems to be working better than I remember it working.  I was also able to install flash from firefox instead of having to do it manually.  These are all good things.  As for GRASS, the packages that are available through Ubuntu repositories are nearly 2 years old despite current versions of GRASS being available in Debian sid repositories.  Looks as if I will have to compile from sources. 

This is something else that is a pain in the butt with Linux, this kind of techno-geek environment.  Groups that develop apps for linux don't guarantee compatibility with any particular distro and seem to leave it up to the technical skills of their users to fill in their support gap.  Also with so many distros out there, there isn't a consistent development environment.  Seems to me if you are developing for Windows, you know pretty much what your environment is. 

I mean, seriously, I have never had to compile anything from sources for Windows to merely use an application.  Why is it so for Linux?

Answer:  Because there are so many different flavors of Linux and some don't interoperate at all, while others will but only minimally.  Once there's one version the entire community agrees on, MS is doomed.

[Javora]

I loaded Ubuntu back on my laptop for giggles and also to try to get GRASS GIS working on it.  The mplayer plugin seems to be working better than I remember it working.  I was also able to install flash from firefox instead of having to do it manually.  These are all good things.  As for GRASS, the packages that are available through Ubuntu repositories are nearly 2 years old despite current versions of GRASS being available in Debian sid repositories.  Looks as if I will have to compile from sources. 

This is something else that is a pain in the butt with Linux, this kind of techno-geek environment.  Groups that develop apps for linux don't guarantee compatibility with any particular distro and seem to leave it up to the technical skills of their users to fill in their support gap.  Also with so many distros out there, there isn't a consistent development environment.  Seems to me if you are developing for Windows, you know pretty much what your environment is. 

I mean, seriously, I have never had to compile anything from sources for Windows to merely use an application.  Why is it so for Linux?

Answer:  Because there are so many different flavors of Linux and some don't interoperate at all, while others will but only minimally.  Once there's one version the entire community agrees on, MS is doomed.

That's most of the answer.  You left out the part about new versions of Linux coming out each month or so.  One or two of those versions will be labeled the new "it" version and people will clamor to it until the next "it" version comes out.  Mint Linux is a perfect example, it is the new "it" (ie hip, cool, etc) version and will remain so until it is replaced by the next latest greatest version of Linux.  When that happens most people will dump Mint Linux for whatever is next leaving just a few stragglers behind.  Then the cycle will repeat itself about a month later.  And people wonder why Linux community can't get themselves all on the same page.      

[Nemesis]

I loaded Ubuntu back on my laptop for giggles and also to try to get GRASS GIS working on it.  The mplayer plugin seems to be working better than I remember it working.  I was also able to install flash from firefox instead of having to do it manually.  These are all good things.  As for GRASS, the packages that are available through Ubuntu repositories are nearly 2 years old despite current versions of GRASS being available in Debian sid repositories.  Looks as if I will have to compile from sources. 

Alternately you can go to the official GRASS GIS site and download the binaries explicitly made for Ubuntu.  You have to go there for up to date source anyhow don't you?

This is something else that is a pain in the butt with Linux, this kind of techno-geek environment.  Groups that develop apps for linux don't guarantee compatibility with any particular distro and seem to leave it up to the technical skills of their users to fill in their support gap.  Also with so many distros out there, there isn't a consistent development environment.  Seems to me if you are developing for Windows, you know pretty much what your environment is. 

Fortunately the people who brought out the Linux Standards Base are continuing their work under the Linux Foundation and developing standards for installation as well.

Most developers do packabe up for the most relevant distributions. 

I believe that Ubuntu can use the Debian repositories and any Debian targeted binaries.  Ubuntu is derived from Debian afterall and hasn't gone in incompatible directions.

I mean, seriously, I have never had to compile anything from sources for Windows to merely use an application.  Why is it so for Linux?

I have never had to compile anything from source for Linux.  It is nice to know that if I ever need to or want to  that the option is there however.  I can only wonder why you seem to run into it all the time.

[Lepton]

I don't know about that.  While I am sure it is true that people flit about from one distro to the next, I have pretty much stuck with what was popular and stayed there, not that I have used Linux much.  Back in 2000 or so, I was using or trying to use Red Hat 7 something.  It's actually a real testament to linux develop that I no longer have to write down all my system specs and enter them manually as I did when I first installed Red Hat. 

A couple of years after that I was using Debian which I think was pretty popular at the time.  And now, I choose Ubuntu.  I have to admit the name kind of turned me off at first, but it seemed like a solid product.  So when I get a distro, I use it and only it, then again I don't use Linux on any regular basis.  I am a dabbler.  Those folks who change distros every month are what I would call linux hobbyist.  Part of what they enjoy is installing the stuff, and getting it work, etc.  It's a hobby.  The Linux user just wants it to work and the dabbler like me finds it all a bit too unfamiliar to stay around very long.

I don't think it would be a huge problem if people were moving around from one distro to another if those distros contained basically the same core packages but when you've got distros using different version of things like GNOME or KDE or even different kernels, that seems to create substantial problems in terms of developing and deploying applications that will work reliably across distros.

I am not sure we can totally fault the users when the developers of these distros haven't sat down and agreed to work within a common framework so that they aren't competing amongst themselves, but more so against Microsoft directly.

[Lepton]

As to the Ubuntu GRASS GIS packages, I already tried that.  That's the first place I went as I know GRASS as GRASS and not as yet another mere package in a sea of packages.  I added the repositories, apt-get install, etc.  It did not work when launching from terminal.  If I use the 6.0.2 version that is available in standard Ubuntu reps, it's fine, but from that other source, it doesn't work. 

And this is precisely what I mean about linux, that GRASS GIS site has links to binaries for 6, yes SIX, different linux distros and ONE for Windows.  Why does it take 6 different versions to cover all the Linux bases?  That's pretty ridiculous.  And most of those distro-specific packages are maintained by users, USERS, not by the guys producing the application.  I think GRASS is great.  It's basically a $4,000 program for free, but the fact that there are six different sets of precompiled binaries for Linux is silly to me.  If they were dealing with a more unified framework, I am sure that 6 versions would not be needed.  Are there 6 different versions of GNOME or KDE in each of these distros?  I sure hope not.

[Nemesis]

You left out the part about new versions of Linux coming out each month or so.  One or two of those versions will be labeled the new "it" version and people will clamor to it until the next "it" version comes out.  Mint Linux is a perfect example, it is the new "it" (ie hip, cool, etc) version and will remain so until it is replaced by the next latest greatest version of Linux.  When that happens most people will dump Mint Linux for whatever is next leaving just a few stragglers behind.  Then the cycle will repeat itself about a month later.  And people wonder why Linux community can't get themselves all on the same page.      

Lets look at the major (in market share) versions in North America of Linux that I recall.

First there was Slackware.  A very early distribution and still around but aimed at the truly knowledgable. 

Redhat the first commercial Linux to be really successful.  Still around after years and still among the leaders of the pack.  Its been in the black for years.  Apparently they are going to begin marketing preinstalled Redhat to businesses on desktops.  HP is marketing them  on the Desktop in Australia now.

Suse.  Now owned by Novell but originally a German distribution (and I believe derived from Slackware.  Currently being pushed by ... Microsoft of all companies. 

Ubuntu.  The only recent one (Oct 2004).  Unlike the others they are targetting the end users desktop and due to popular demand are being marketed that way by Dell.

Do minor new brands pop up and gain a following?   Definitely, but unless they have something new they stay on the fringes.  There are some that have tried for the Big Time but didn't make it Corel (now Xandros - Debian derived), Lindows (now Linspire and now Ubuntu derived), Simply Mepis (now Ubuntu derived). 

There are also those that have big followings in other areas of the world, Mandriva for example (formerly Mandrake and Connectiva) is popular in Europe and South America in spite of almost being destroyed by "professional management" brought in by venture capitalists.

There are also those that have a large amount of influence but I wouldn't really say market share.  The King of those is Debian.  Its influence is shown by how many distributions are derived either from it or from a derivative of it (Debian to Ubuntu to Linspire/Mepis/Mint etc as an example)

Linux Mint does not make the list as it is NOT one of the major versions.  I only found out about it from reading an English Linux magazine.  I recommend it not for "cool or hip" but because from my viewpoint for many people it has reached the point of being "Good Enough".  One way for me to tell that is because it finally allowed me to change from primarily Windows (2000Pro) but using Linux as well to the reverse.  Outside of various things where you may be experiencing a vendor lock in it is good enough for the average (non gaming) user.  Gaming is the primary reason my other machine still has Windows on it.

[Nemesis]

As to the Ubuntu GRASS GIS packages, I already tried that.  That's the first place I went as I know GRASS as GRASS and not as yet another mere package in a sea of packages.  I added the repositories, apt-get install, etc.  It did not work when launching from terminal.  If I use the 6.0.2 version that is available in standard Ubuntu reps, it's fine, but from that other source, it doesn't work. 

And this is precisely what I mean about linux, that GRASS GIS site has links to binaries for 6, yes SIX, different linux distros and ONE for Windows.  Why does it take 6 different versions to cover all the Linux bases?  That's pretty ridiculous.  And most of those distro-specific packages are maintained by users, USERS, not by the guys producing the application.  I think GRASS is great.  It's basically a $4,000 program for free, but the fact that there are six different sets of precompiled binaries for Linux is silly to me.  If they were dealing with a more unified framework, I am sure that 6 versions would not be needed.  Are there 6 different versions of GNOME or KDE in each of these distros?  I sure hope not.

It actually has NO link for windows.  It has a Unix/Linux version that is supposed to work under Cygwin on Windows.

What Is Cygwin?
# Cygwin is a Linux-like environment for Windows. It consists of two parts: A DLL (cygwin1.dll) which acts as a Linux API emulation layer providing substantial Linux API functionality.
# A collection of tools which provide Linux look and feel.

The Cygwin DLL currently works with all recent, commercially released x86 32 bit and 64 bit versions of Windows, with the exception of Windows CE.

Note that the official support for Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows Me will be discontinued with the next major version (1.7.0) of Cygwin.

The Debian version should also work under Ubuntu and one version is "Generic" and should be workable as well with more difficutly.

[Nemesis]

A couple of years after that I was using Debian which I think was pretty popular at the time.  And now, I choose Ubuntu.  I have to admit the name kind of turned me off at first, but it seemed like a solid product.  So when I get a distro, I use it and only it, then again I don't use Linux on any regular basis.  I am a dabbler.  Those folks who change distros every month are what I would call linux hobbyist.  Part of what they enjoy is installing the stuff, and getting it work, etc.  It's a hobby.  The Linux user just wants it to work and the dabbler like me finds it all a bit too unfamiliar to stay around very long.

I don't "flit" from distro to distro myself. 

I tested several distributions at different times looking for one that was "good enough".  Corel was the first one to stick around for a while (then Microsoft persuaded Corel to leave the Linux market).  Mandrake carried on for some time then OpenSuse for several years.  Each was usable and kept me dabbling at it more and more but didn't cross the threshold. 

I tested various bootable CDs but didn't do any installs with them until DVD playing got me to test Vector and Mint just recently.  Vector was nearly good enough and I would have left it on the laptop but Mint was "Good Enough"  to replace OpenSuse on my desktop and Vector on the laptop.  Barring some major break through I think that they will stay installed with Mint for quite some time as OpenSuse did before Mint.

I don't think it would be a huge problem if people were moving around from one distro to another if those distros contained basically the same core packages but when you've got distros using different version of things like GNOME or KDE or even different kernels, that seems to create substantial problems in terms of developing and deploying applications that will work reliably across distros.

Every time you patch Windows you create the same problems.  The only thing is that Microsoft is able to blame the software maker at all times and get away with it.  As an example (though old) a patch to IE was incompatible with my HD controller and for some reason that blocked all software on my system from accessing the Internet though I could connect - just not do anything.

Consider the problems people have had getting SFC (all versions) to play on XP and Vista.  Microsoft isn't exactly seamless either.  Will Vista Basic actually run all Vista programs? 

I am not sure we can totally fault the users when the developers of these distros haven't sat down and agreed to work within a common framework so that they aren't competing amongst themselves, but more so against Microsoft directly.

The Linux Standard Base and other work by the Linux Foundation is changing that.  Ubuntu by being as good as it is has others deriving from it and those try to maintain the compatibility to it (and thence to Debian) to help compatibility.  That is working towards being a defacto standard for those not already big enough to be an independent "standard" (like Redhat/Fedora for example).

[Lepton]

As to the Ubuntu GRASS GIS packages, I already tried that.  That's the first place I went as I know GRASS as GRASS and not as yet another mere package in a sea of packages.  I added the repositories, apt-get install, etc.  It did not work when launching from terminal.  If I use the 6.0.2 version that is available in standard Ubuntu reps, it's fine, but from that other source, it doesn't work. 

And this is precisely what I mean about linux, that GRASS GIS site has links to binaries for 6, yes SIX, different linux distros and ONE for Windows.  Why does it take 6 different versions to cover all the Linux bases?  That's pretty ridiculous.  And most of those distro-specific packages are maintained by users, USERS, not by the guys producing the application.  I think GRASS is great.  It's basically a $4,000 program for free, but the fact that there are six different sets of precompiled binaries for Linux is silly to me.  If they were dealing with a more unified framework, I am sure that 6 versions would not be needed.  Are there 6 different versions of GNOME or KDE in each of these distros?  I sure hope not.

It actually has NO link for windows.  It has a Unix/Linux version that is supposed to work under Cygwin on Windows.

Nemesis, please don't tell me what you think you know about GRASS.  I've been running it off and on on Linux since Red Hat 7. And I have had to compile it from sources and I may have to compile it from sources in the future.  I have a version of it for Windows right now running natively, not through Cygwin.  On Vista, no less.  Jeez, give someone a web browser, half-a-second, and an opinion, and you create an authority on a subject.



That's GRASS on Windows VISTA native.

[Javora]

Lets look at the major (in market share) versions in North America of Linux that I recall.

First there was Slackware.  A very early distribution and still around but aimed at the truly knowledgable. 

Redhat the first commercial Linux to be really successful.  Still around after years and still among the leaders of the pack.  Its been in the black for years.  Apparently they are going to begin marketing preinstalled Redhat to businesses on desktops.  HP is marketing them  on the Desktop in Australia now.

Suse.  Now owned by Novell but originally a German distribution (and I believe derived from Slackware.  Currently being pushed by ... Microsoft of all companies. 

Ubuntu.  The only recent one (Oct 2004).  Unlike the others they are targetting the end users desktop and due to popular demand are being marketed that way by Dell.

Do minor new brands pop up and gain a following?   Definitely, but unless they have something new they stay on the fringes.  There are some that have tried for the Big Time but didn't make it Corel (now Xandros - Debian derived), Lindows (now Linspire and now Ubuntu derived), Simply Mepis (now Ubuntu derived). 

There are also those that have big followings in other areas of the world, Mandriva for example (formerly Mandrake and Connectiva) is popular in Europe and South America in spite of almost being destroyed by "professional management" brought in by venture capitalists.

There are also those that have a large amount of influence but I wouldn't really say market share.  The King of those is Debian.  Its influence is shown by how many distributions are derived either from it or from a derivative of it (Debian to Ubuntu to Linspire/Mepis/Mint etc as an example)

Linux Mint does not make the list as it is NOT one of the major versions.  I only found out about it from reading an English Linux magazine.  I recommend it not for "cool or hip" but because from my viewpoint for many people it has reached the point of being "Good Enough".  One way for me to tell that is because it finally allowed me to change from primarily Windows (2000Pro) but using Linux as well to the reverse.  Outside of various things where you may be experiencing a vendor lock in it is good enough for the average (non gaming) user.  Gaming is the primary reason my other machine still has Windows on it.

Since Slackware, Redhat, Suse, Ubuntu, and Mandriva don't usually have versions of their OS released every month that leaves the "fringe" Linux OS's that I was referring to.  Remember I stated "That's most of the answer", referring to the point about the incompatibility.  If the major Linux distro's are putting out different versions of the distro out every month (to my knowledge they are not) then IMHO it is just further proof that the Linux community is just shooting themselves in the foot.  I'm not going to respond to the rest of this because it has nothing to do with the point that Maxillius and I were making.  All the Linux distros need to be on the same page to grow market share and have a chance at gaming companies make games that run on Linux out of the box.  No gaming company is going to make a game for a bunch of different Linux distro's.  It's that simple.

[Commander Maxillius]

Precisely, and Mac users should want Linux to gain popularity because it is far easier to port a game from Mac to Linux than it is from Windows.  And if it can be easily ported, why wouldn't the reverse be true?  Game companies would write for Linux and include instructions on how to get the game to run on Mac, or even an autodetect on the same disk.

But none of that matters while there are as many distros as PC manufacturers.  Guys, the 1980s wants its computer market back.


EDIT: Nearly forgot what I came for:  GAME NEWS!

I installed Wine and it seems DirectX 8 works well enough to allow Orion Pirates to load, but the show turns to black and white and hangs when you start a skirmish.  Better results than I got with DirectX 7 (original and EAW), which wouldn't install at all.  Gonna try SFC3 and see if DirectX 9 works better.


EDIT 2: No joy.  SFC3's installer can't get past the key entry window.  "Could not open string file" is the error message, then it tells me I aborted the CD key entry process then closes.  So close!  It *has* to work!!!!