Topic: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...  (Read 2211 times)

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Offline Centurus

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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292305,00.html?sPage=fnc.science/space

Huge, Light Exoplanet Shouldn't Even Exist
Tuesday, August 07, 2007

By Ker Than

 E-MAIL STORY PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION 
 Jeffrey Hall, Lowell Observatory


A computer-generated simulation of TrES-4, with its host star on the right.
The largest planet ever discovered is also one of the strangest, and theoretically should not even exist, scientists say.

Dubbed TrES-4, the planet is about 1.7 times the size of Jupiter and belongs to a small subclass of "puffy" planets that have extremely low densities.

The finding will be detailed in an upcoming issue of Astrophysical Journal.

• Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Space Center.

"Its mean density is only about 0.2 grams per cubic centimeter, or about the density of balsa wood," said study leader Georgi Mandushev of the Lowell Observatory in Arizona. "And because of the planet's relatively weak pull on its upper atmosphere, some of the atmosphere probably escapes in a comet-like tail."

The planet's large mass-to-density ratio makes it an anomaly among known exoplanets, and its existence cannot be explained by current models.

A planet anomaly

"TrES-4 is way bigger than it's supposed to be," Mandushev told SPACE.com. "For its mass, it should be much smaller. It basically should be about the size of Jupiter, and instead it's almost twice as big."

(Story continues below)

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The planet is located about 1,400 light years away from Earth and zips around its parent star in only three and a half days.

An international team of astronomers discovered it using a network of automated telescopes called the Trans-Atlantic Exoplanet Survey.

TrES-4 was detected as it passed in front of, or "transited," its parent star, called GSC 02620-00648. The transit technique is the only planet-finding method that allows scientists to calculate the size of a planet.

TrES-4 "is the largest planet found so far for which we actually know the size," Mandushev said in a telephone interview. "There could be larger planets, but we have no way of measuring their sizes, because they don't transit."

Speeded up star

The parent star of TrES-4 is also unusual in that it is about the same age as our sun, but much farther along in its evolutionary history.

"Because it is more massive, it has evolved much faster," Mandushev explained. "It has become what astronomers call a subgiant, or a star that has exhausted all of its hydrogen fuel in the core and is on its way to becoming a red giant."

Our sun is not expected to become a red giant for another 5 to 7 billion years. When it does, the sun will expand to engulf the inner planets and possibly Earth.

Because TrES-4 orbits so close to its star, it is certain to be consumed once the star becomes a red giant in about a billion years, Mandushev said.

GSC 02620-00648 is much more luminous than our sun and emits three to four times more energy per second.

As a general rule, gas planets that orbit larger, more luminous stars tend to be puffier, but this does not explain TrES-4's anomalously large size.

"We actually looked at the energy which the planet gets from the star, and there's no way this can be the only explanation for how big the planet is," Mandushev said.
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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 07:11:05 pm »
Interesting article.  Not really significant, but it strikes me that the images we are taking of this planet are from the same time that the roman empire was still going strong.
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 07:51:59 pm »
I wonder what the planets rotaion rate is like.  Could it be a disk? 

Perhaps it is very young and is still collapsing and has not yet reached its "mature" density.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 10:59:07 pm »
It could be possible Nem, but the article did say that the star was the same age as our sun, but that it was much farther along in its life cycle.  Perhaps this is an indication of what may happen to our gas giants when our sun reaches the same point in its life cycle.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2007, 11:16:55 am »
It could be possible Nem, but the article did say that the star was the same age as our sun, but that it was much farther along in its life cycle.  Perhaps this is an indication of what may happen to our gas giants when our sun reaches the same point in its life cycle.

I missed the stars age.  However even so there is the possibiity that the planet formed by an alternate method rather than as most planets do and as such ended up substantially different from the norm.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
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Offline Lepton

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2007, 11:53:57 am »
When did Fox News start believing in science?  Please find another source for your science news as you are likely to end up believing that global warming doesn't exist, but that every tenet of string theory has been confirmed.


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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2007, 12:27:20 pm »
When did Fox News start believing in science?  Please find another source for your science news as you are likely to end up believing that global warming doesn't exist, but that every tenet of string theory has been confirmed.

Fox does have a competent science side, at least as good as their competition.  To prove them wrong how about citing major errors in 3 different sciences in the last 3 months?  Please link to their "false" stories and to more "accurate and reliable" alternate sources.  Just to be fair since global warming and stem cells are more politics than science please avoid those 2 issues.

As I understand it string theory has not been "confirmed", it merely has not been dis proven.  There are still many stages before it reaches the point yet where it is on as firm ground as relativity for example.  Does it explain the off course space probes or why the outer parts of galaxies orbit too quickly for example?  Not that I last heard. 
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2007, 12:35:45 pm »
When did Fox News start believing in science?  Please find another source for your science news as you are likely to end up believing that global warming doesn't exist, but that every tenet of string theory has been confirmed.

Click on the link and see who originally published this story before you let your obvious bias get in the way of a interesting article and ruin discussion for others here who might find it interesting..
Rob

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Offline Centurus

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2007, 01:21:13 pm »
I don't think he even bothers to read the article.  He sees FOX in the name and immediately deems it fiction. 
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2007, 01:23:05 pm »
It could be possible Nem, but the article did say that the star was the same age as our sun, but that it was much farther along in its life cycle.  Perhaps this is an indication of what may happen to our gas giants when our sun reaches the same point in its life cycle.

I missed the stars age.  However even so there is the possibiity that the planet formed by an alternate method rather than as most planets do and as such ended up substantially different from the norm.

I never took that possiblity into account.  Our working knowledge of how planets form is still vastly incomplete.  If I remember correctly, it was once believed that planets could only form in single star systems, such as our own, because the gravitational pull of a binary or trinary star system would prevent planets from forming.  Yet they've discovered planets orbiting binary star systems. 
The pen is truly mightier than the sword.  And considerably easier to write with.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2007, 01:27:28 pm »
At one point it was thought that planetary systems only formed when two stars passed very close to one another and drew material out from the two stars.  That resulted in the view that any galaxy could only have a handful of planetary systems at one time as it was an excessively rare occurance.  The current model allows for most stars to have planets AND for there to be many "free" planets floating around between stars.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Centurus

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2007, 01:29:06 pm »
At one point it was thought that planetary systems only formed when two stars passed very close to one another and drew material out from the two stars.  That resulted in the view that any galaxy could only have a handful of planetary systems at one time as it was an excessively rare occurance.  The current model allows for most stars to have planets AND for there to be many "free" planets floating around between stars.

Ahhh.  As I implied, I wasn't too too sure.  That's why I said IF I remember correctly.  :-D  But when it comes to planet development, more information is always good.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2007, 01:40:26 pm »
There have been many theories of planetary formation.  Most discredited of course. 

An old Sci Fi series of novels (The Lensmen series) called the 2 star system a "Wellington Incident", I am not sure if the author used the proper name or made one up.

There are many stars orbited by super Jovians close in.   One might wonder if such a planet might pass within its Roche limit and break up resulting in a "planetary nebula" of unconventional origin and composition around an older star, any planets formed might well be anomalous.  The same could result if a brown dwarf was engaged in a hypothetical "Wellington Incident".
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Uhhh...excuse me Mr. Planet, but you're not supposed to exist...
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2007, 08:10:28 am »
Link to full article

Quote
Previous studies had shown that some of the material from Mira A's wind has collected into a disc – which could potentially form planets – around Mira B


Mira A is a Red Giant and is losing gas that Mira B (a white dwarf) is collecting into a "planetary disc".  Since Mira B is an old star it may eventually end up with planets that are very young in comparison and did not originate in the "standard" way. 

I so love it when science confirms a speculation I make on the spur of the moment.  :)  :woot: 
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."