Topic: Anyone care to talk tactics?

[marstone]

I think they didn't do the full SSD since it would be very crowded on the small area they display it.

[MrBad151]

I would be interested in knowing how many internals it takes to destroy a D-7 vs Fed CA in SFC, not counting shields.

Since I like to fly plasma races I often thought they took the biggest hit because of double internals, but I am not so sure.  If you do 30 points or even 20, you know you will at least destroy one system.  You could fire a disrupter 2 or 3 times and not actually destroy anything.  Where the plasma races really got hurt in SFC is the fact that you can change speeds at will, unlike SFB, where your ability to change speeds was extremely limited. Another Facet of SFC that hurt plasma races is the fact that plasma always follow.. not necessarily taking the shortest route to the target.  So overall the plasma races may have taken the biggest hit in SFC.. but not necessarily because of double internals.

Another point I would like to add to the Klinks taking a huge hit with double internals is the fact that in SFC people aren't scared of running up and doing an alpha strike.  Disrupters just don't bite that hard in SFC, and you can unload on a klink and fly away in pretty good shape, add to that all the repair parts you can have on a ship and there is nothing keeping you for chasing down a Klink.  In SFB it seemed battle were fought a lot more at a distance, where Klingons tend to excel over many races.

In SFB you thought twice and perhaps three times before you turned a weaken shield towards your enemy.  The thought of your enemy taking a pot shot at a weak shield and scoring a few internals (thus destroying a few systems) was enough to influence how you moved your ship.  In SFC a couple of internals aren't that scary.  More than likely you won't even lose a single systems, so a weakened shield doesn't really affect your movement all that much.  Obviously in SFC if you have a down rear shield you won't want to spend a lot of time running, but it wouldn't keep you from showing your weakened rear screen for a short time while you spin around.  Even this effects the Klingons more than a lot of other races.  In SFB, fed might be weary about showing a weakened shield to a Kliink at a range of 15 knowing that those disrupters could probably knock down his shield and destroy a few, perhaps critical system, not so in SFC.   So Klingons have a harder time influencing how others fly their ships in SFC than they did in SFB, which takes away, somewhat, from their own superior maneuverability.

[marstone]

double internals hits the plasma races hardest, because of the damage chart and the first column hits, a large volley (plasma) would stun lots of systems but may not double up on many.  But, the disruptor being fired many times would take out weapons because of hitting the same die roll more often on different small volleys.

[Nemesis]

double internals hits the plasma races hardest, because of the damage chart and the first column hits, a large volley (plasma) would stun lots of systems but may not double up on many.  But, the disruptor being fired many times would take out weapons because of hitting the same die roll more often on different small volleys.

Add the regeneration system and it hurts the Klingons more.  I've repeatedly had times in a K-D7 against an I-CA where after doing in excess of 200 internals the I-CA never lost a weapon or enough power to slow it down. 

[MrBad151]

After doing a bit a research, it seems Taldren went with the SFB DAC... unaltered.  Which is rather suprising.  I would have thought they would, at the very least, changed the first row to "hit twice", to counter having double internals.  Apparently it by design that large volleys would do mostly Hull and engine damage and very little of anything else. 

I guess it makes some since that a plasma race would want to do engine damage, to slow their opponent, thus making it easier to hit them the next time.  It doesn't make a lot of since to do 130 internals to a ship and only take out 2 systems. 

An article I read said the people had done a bit of testing and found that a Hydran could hit a Fed CA for 130 pts of internals and only destroy 2 or 3 systems.  The article was written sometime after EAW came out but before OP.  The author had asked Kothozoth (what ever Magnum mans company's name is) if that was going to be changed in a patch.  Magnum responded," No, it was as the designers intended."  According to the article doing 8-10 pts was the optimal damage to maximize the Miza effect.

Nemesis, as to why it didn't slow the I-CA down, I can't say.  I would have thought that with a 200 pt volley, you would have done lots of Hull and Engine damage as intended, but perhaps you wiped out every other system you can't see, i.e. Labs, transporters, bridge.

Considering how the DAC effects large volleys I am going to have to swing my voted back to plasma races being hurt more by the Double internals.  Here is what Plasma races are up against.

1. Acceleration- ships can accelerate away at anytime from Plasma torps thus reducing the damage taken.

2. Double Internals reduce the "crunch" power of a plasma torp compared to other weapons.

3. Large volleys do mostly Hull and engine damage while leaving most weapon systems untouched.

4. Compounding #3, engine damage slowly repairs its self at no cost in power or  repair parts, engine damage can also be sped up by using repair parts.

You would think that with the above mentioned handicaps that it would be almost a deal breaker for races that use plasmas and render ships that rely on plasma for their primary heavy weapon totally worthless. Considering the above, Romulan ships should be unplayable.  While Gorn have lots of phasers to off set plasmas, Romulans have to rely very heavily on plasmas.  I am left wondering if there is something we are not taking into consideration...

 I can tell you that I have fought and either won or held my own against some of the best pilots this game has seen while I was flying a Gorn ship.  I have flown a Gorn ship against Magnumman-icop, iceman, topdog, Frey, shadowlord, and a few other Klinks, with impossible to remember names.  I can't say I beat them all, but I at least held my own.

Something I should add, the article I read said EAW used the SFB DAC, but didn't say how they "knew" that for sure.  I can't really see how they could test it since you can't see  most of the systems on a ship or even see most of the systems being hit.  It could be they just assumed SFC used the same DAC, and it doesn't.  Even if SFC doesn't use the SFB DAC it would appear it uses something similar from the way damage is allowed small volley vs large volley.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis, as to why it didn't slow the I-CA down, I can't say.  I would have thought that with a 200 pt volley, you would have done lots of Hull and Engine damage as intended, but perhaps you wiped out every other system you can't see, i.e. Labs, transporters, bridge.

A D7 can't do 200 pts in one volley.  It is during a long slow battle, hit after hit totaling in excess of 200 pts.  I believe the "stuns" regenerate so by the next time you hit the same system it has healed.

An article I read said the people had done a bit of testing and found that a Hydran could hit a Fed CA for 130 pts of internals and only destroy 2 or 3 systems.  The article was written sometime after EAW came out but before OP.  The author had asked Kothozoth (what ever Magnum mans company's name is) if that was going to be changed in a patch.  Magnum responded," No, it was as the designers intended."  According to the article doing 8-10 pts was the optimal damage to maximize the Miza effect.

Four suicide fusion beams at range 0 on the #4 shield of a K-D6 (unrefitted) can destroy it.  I've done it.

[MrBad151]

OK, I thought "stun" was a temporary state weapons were in for a short time after being hit.  The Icon would flash for a few seconds and you were not able to fire the weapon.  I thought a hit could do one of 3 things, 1. damage a weapon (turn it yellow) but it still worked. 2. Damage and stun a weapon (cause it flash yellow for a few seconds and render it inoperative for a few seconds then the icon turned yellow) afterwards it would be still work.  3.  Destroy a weapon (doing 2 pts of damage or the second point of damage) and turn it black.

[Nemesis]

OK, I thought "stun" was a temporary state weapons were in for a short time after being hit.  The Icon would flash for a few seconds and you were not able to fire the weapon.  I thought a hit could do one of 3 things, 1. damage a weapon (turn it yellow) but it still worked. 2. Damage and stun a weapon (cause it flash yellow for a few seconds and render it inoperative for a few seconds then the icon turned yellow) afterwards it would be still work.  3.  Destroy a weapon (doing 2 pts of damage or the second point of damage) and turn it black.

In SFC with double internals the first hit stuns it and the 2nd destroys it.  The stunning effect being temporary is fine but if that first point of damage is erased too rapidly the Klingon with the sabre dance is greatly affected as the time to make the next hit to destroy it allows the first hit to be erased before the 2nd finishes the job.  That is what seems to happen to me when fighting the ISC ships.  The Romulan with its much greater punch may well manage to with one shot hit a system with enough damage to destroy the system instead of merely "stun it". 

[Soreyes]

Never assume your enemy lacks the will to take a bloody nose....

When I first started playing SFC. I got some very good advice from Fluff, Green and Matts. It went something like this.

"I'll take a Bloody Nose to crack your skull" 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

OK, I thought "stun" was a temporary state weapons were in for a short time after being hit.  The Icon would flash for a few seconds and you were not able to fire the weapon.  I thought a hit could do one of 3 things, 1. damage a weapon (turn it yellow) but it still worked. 2. Damage and stun a weapon (cause it flash yellow for a few seconds and render it inoperative for a few seconds then the icon turned yellow) afterwards it would be still work.  3.  Destroy a weapon (doing 2 pts of damage or the second point of damage) and turn it black.

In SFC with double internals the first hit stuns it and the 2nd destroys it.  The stunning effect being temporary is fine but if that first point of damage is erased too rapidly the Klingon with the sabre dance is greatly affected as the time to make the next hit to destroy it allows the first hit to be erased before the 2nd finishes the job.  That is what seems to happen to me when fighting the ISC ships.  The Romulan with its much greater punch may well manage to with one shot hit a system with enough damage to destroy the system instead of merely "stun it".

This is scary news! I never knew that the first point of damage disappeared after a while. As if doubled internals weren't enough, there are partially regenerating doubled internals?!?! (partially because at least things like hull or lab do not regenerate over time)

[Nemesis]

This is scary news! I never knew that the first point of damage disappeared after a while. As if doubled internals weren't enough, there are partially regenerating doubled internals?!?! (partially because at least things like hull or lab do not regenerate over time)

Notice I did say "but if that first point of damage is erased".  This is what appears to happen often when I fight the I-CA with a K-D7, I haven't had the same difficulty with other ships.  It may be because of the difference in firepower/size being enough that I just can't inflict the same damage quickly enough that it shows up.  A ship with more "punch" does not seem to have the same issue.

[Panzergranate]

It is fine to toatl up the firepower of the various ships in SFB and SFC, but nobody has mentioned that the FOCUS of the available firepower onto a victim from a particular facing of the ship.

Klingon warships have excelent forward facing weaponry, allowing for maximum first pass damage on chosen victims and other prey.... the skill comes in not suffering any significant damage from the victim during said first pass.

[FPF-DieHard]

Speed is life

Not always . . .

[FPF-DieHard]

I would be interested in knowing how many internals it takes to destroy a D-7 vs Fed CA in SFC, not counting shields.

With D2 loadouts it takes about 250 internals to kill a cruiser unless you have MASSIVE damage in one volley.   This assumes the standard 10 spare part in a battle lasting at least 10 minutes.

[FPF-DieHard]

It is fine to toatl up the firepower of the various ships in SFB and SFC, but nobody has mentioned that the FOCUS of the available firepower onto a victim from a particular facing of the ship.

Klingon warships have excelent forward facing weaponry, allowing for maximum first pass damage on chosen victims and other prey.... the skill comes in not suffering any significant damage from the victim during said first pass.

Correct, but that advantage is minimized when you only have 3 ships in a Fleet as opposed to 12 in SFB.

[Panzergranate]

Unless you're flying a "fast" warship with plenty of spare engine power, speed is crippling and reduces firepower.... unless one is a dishonourable Kzinti hiding behind drone racks.

For Romulan early tech players, look speed up in a dictionary or ask non- early tech Rommie players about it.

Some ships, like the Klingon F5Y, have only Disrupters which eat power, not forgetting the cloaking device, so speed is a problem if one wants to shoot back.

I usually fly at Speed 19 but drop to Speed 9 once the victim is ready for the final coup-de-grace.

Speed 19 allows for enough power to charge all weapons, boost shields, etc. and is high enough to jump to a higher speed to outrun Speed 22 and 32 drones.

The turning arc is OK at these speeds too.

[Age]

Never assume your enemy lacks the will to take a bloody nose....

Yours would bleed the hardest.

Speed is life

That all depends on who your oppenent is with stock 2552 or OP+ shiplist.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Speed is definitely nice most of the time!

Say you're flying Klink, and the other player is a Hydran. We know that Hydrans have great crunch potential and durable hulls, while Klingons don't have either. If the fastest the Hydran can go is 24 while holding overloads, it makes since to go faster than them so they don't chase you down and close the range. It would be suicide to hang around at slow speeds and let the Hydran get close because in this example, they would CRUSH the Klink badly.

It's a similar situation with defending from plasma ... yes, you can weasel or reinforce, but the first is limited and can be countered by an anchor, and the second really doesn't work for other reasons. The best choice is avoiding the plasma with speed. The exception would be to take a plasma hit (the bloody nose) in order to do more damage and turn the tide of a match.

[Tus-XC]

bah... i likes going nice and slow w/ me rommies (WE, KE, KVL)... if i didn't i could drive my opponenet insane w/ the constant cloak - decloak - cloak - decloak...

[Nemesis]

It is fine to toatl up the firepower of the various ships in SFB and SFC, but nobody has mentioned that the FOCUS of the available firepower onto a victim from a particular facing of the ship.

Klingon warships have excelent forward facing weaponry, allowing for maximum first pass damage on chosen victims and other prey.... the skill comes in not suffering any significant damage from the victim during said first pass.

Actually I did

On that 60^o angle the D7 can fire all disruptor's, drones and 7 of the 9 phasers and as you turn away you can fire the remaining 2 aft phasers as well.  If you have maneuvered correctly against an F-CA you are hitting his 3, 4 or 5 shield and he can only fire some of his phasers and none of his photons.