Poll

Which of these variartions do you like best?

Variant 1: Oberth pylons
1 (12.5%)
Variant 2: Dorsal neck
5 (62.5%)
variant 3: Shuttlecarrier mod
2 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Topic: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby  (Read 11171 times)

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Offline Scottish Andy

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Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« on: July 16, 2007, 04:49:11 pm »
Hi All,

I'd like your opinion on this ship please. I have a general idea for what I want here, but there are a few last variations to play out and I'd like to know which one you like best. Everyone is welcome and encouraged to take part. I have my own favourite, but I am still undecided. So, I would like to introduce you to the Starfleet science cruiser USS T'Lani NCC-3941, first of her class!

Here we have Variant 1, with the Oberth Pylons attaching the Oberth sensor array to the saucer:









The Pro of this version (IMHO) is that it does look the best at first glance.
The Con is that it suffers the same shortcoming as the Oberth class: no turbolift to the sensor array. You either crawl down and up the pylons, or beam down to and back up from it to access the array.

Here we have Variant 2, with the standard dorsal neck attaching the Oberth sensor array to the saucer:









The reverse of the above, the Con of this version (IMHO) is that it doesn't look as good at first glance (I have since gotten used to it).
The Pro is that it avoids the same shortcoming as the Oberth class, and actually provides turbolift access to the sensor array. This variant makes more sense to me from a practical/engineering standpoint.

Here we have Variant 3, where I have taken my Jenshahn-class "engineering dorsal" and attached the Oberth sensor pod to that.









The Pro (I think, I'm still not sure) is that the design looks more balanced in general.
The Con - again from an practical/engineering standpoint - is that the operation of the warp engines could interfere with the delicate sensor equipment and possibly distort the readings. Both the earlier, main variants avoid this by pushing their nacelles well above the level of the saucer.

Okay, so, let me know what you think! I am most interested in your answers and comments!

Thanks, all.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 08:34:25 am by Scottish Andy »
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Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards latest baby
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2007, 08:38:32 pm »
hrmn... So there's no 'lift to the bottom half in #1? Well I wouldn't want to be climbing between the two halves. Something  I have found in my travels is that designers rarely get down on the deck plates and see how things they doodle up work. So from a design point of view, #1 is great.

For #2, everything seems to be in order, and is probably the most functional and reliable configuration, so clearly, from a design point of view, could never be built.
 
For #3, We'd have to spend some more money shielding the sensors, more overtime to get the project out of dock on time, probably unreliable at best and a big mistake according to her captains. This, therefore, is the superior design.

Seriously though, I like #3 the best, all jokes aside, I'd think that they'd shield the sensors enough from warp emissions that it wouldn't make that big of a difference. The dorsal seems large enough to house extra science goodies too, like probes and such, keeping the saucer clear for the crewers. None of that crawling or beaming stuff either, plenty of tubes from below to the ER to the saucer and everywhere else. And it just looks pretty darn neat.

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Offline Governor Ronjar

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards latest baby
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 09:49:12 pm »
Never was convinced that the crew was SUPPOSED to go down into the sensor module of the Oberth. I imagine it having maintenance spaces, either reached by transporter of shuttle pod/workbee.

But the Oberth pylons combined with the shuttle section looked ugly to me. And I've never been a fan of Conny saucers with low slung nacelles, with the sole exception of the Miranda, 'cause her saucer has that big ol' ass on it.

So I went with #2. I like the dorsal. And seeing another ship with the Oberth pod makes me happy.

Bravo!

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Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards latest baby
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2007, 12:33:07 am »
Just a side thought...

what about Ulysses style supports (Y) between the saucer and the pod? It would give it the looks of #1 with the attributes of #2 or #3 for pod access. Then again, it could just suck.

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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards latest baby
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 07:36:28 am »
I'll vote when I go visit the Guv tomorrow.*eyeshift*
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Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 08:52:48 am »
Czar, thank you for your very insightful and thought-provoking comments. They provided me with much amusement, mainly because they are so very true. ;)

As for the Ulysees "twin neck" approach... It has its merits, but likely all it would remind me of is the FASA rip off of Franz Joseph's Saladin class, the Nelson. Plus, a single, thick neck has more stability and strength than two narrow, angled necks, and the angled nature would almost preclude a turbolift and make it stairwell access only.

I may still play around with it though. Thanks for the suggestion.

Guv, you and I agree completely. I have 5 decks in my Oberth: 3 in the "saucer" itself, the 4th is the long, flat engineering deck below it mounting the saucer and the nacelles, and the 5th is an "auxiliary deck" in the top level of the sensor pod. It allows maintenance/repair/physical reconfiguring access to the sensor array and is not meant to be a full-time inhabited deck. However, people still need to get down there occasionally, and rather than squirm down the Jeffries' Tubes in the Oberth pylons, or waste a bunch of energy beaming down about 10 metres, I decided I wanted to provide stairwell and turbolift access for my scientists and technicians. Scientists are so fussy, you know? :D
Hence, the standard dorsal neck of Variant 2.

As for this ship having an Oberth pod, This was the reason I created her. A long-running argument with Adrian Jones of 'The Interim Years' (athttp://www.uss-sheffield.co.uk) - which I finally won - makes the point that the Oberth, while a fantastic ship for a short deployment, narrow focus, intensive science mission, it lacks the space on board for long range deployments, crew facilities, or even several science teams of different branches. So, I gave them more space and more powerful engines. :D

Larry, I immediately thought of you and your technologically backwards/inferior infrastructure when posting so many pics, but the whole point is to show the ship, so... go see the Guv! :D

Oh, did either of you, Mohab and Guv, vote in the poll? I see 2 votes, but I've had other people look too. I'm off to ask them as well.
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Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 11:31:10 am »
Okay people, here is my draft workup of the reasons for this ship's existence. Please let me know what you think of it (and if you haven't voted yet, please do!). I want to know if there is anything I should drop as being too wordy. Thanks.



Science Cruiser Development History
By Scottish Andy
[/size]


Development of the Science Cruiser Concept

Starfleet first began to look at developing a full-sized science cruiser right after its inception on 2161. The Daedalus class was originally going to be a fully fledged science ship with minimal armaments and tactical staff. However, the nature of the geo-political climate after the incorporation of the Federation with the initial confrontations with the Klingons and the Earth-Romulan War squelched this original configuration at the early design meetings. A more versatile and capable layout was finally adopted that incorporated aspects of all expected mission roles the ship could be expected to perform as the flagship Federation class. This is a tradition that continues to this day, and Starfleet cruiser-type starships are the most capable and versatile in service in Known Space.

As such, pure science vessels evolved into small, specialised ships as demonstrated in the early T’Pina and current Oberth classes. A small crew of scientists would embark upon a small vessel that could be easily and quickly constructed at civilian-grade ship yards, and then packed with the most advanced sensors and computers available. This allowed many civilian institutions such as universities and research groups to put together their own team to investigate and research their own pet projects, then allowed the ships to be switched to a different specialisation with a short period in a ship yard.

Starfleet too followed this trend for surveys of new planets, in which a planet discovered and assessed by their exploratory cruisers would be visited by a dedicated science vessel that would exhaustively catalogue each lifeform - plant, animal, bacterial, etc - to give the planet its Guarantee of Suitability so that Federation planners could release it for colonisation or development.

Starfleet also followed this pattern for surveys and investigations of stellar phenomena, but it was found that the specialised science vessels were too small for extended analysis. While the single-mindedness of scientists in pursuit of their research is well documented, it was discovered that too many of them crowded aboard these ships, leading to Oberth class ships with a nominal crew of 40 personnel being packed to the bulkheads with upwards of 80 people. This strained the small ships’ environmental systems to the limits and further reduced the time they could spend on-station. Further, lab and computer time had to be either conducted in large groups or on a very regulated schedule for personal/individual team access. The spirit of scientific cooperation helped to defuse many pending ego-fuelled tirades.

A case study was made on the specific example of the Oberth class’ layout. While being 150m long*, most of that length is the huge "secondary hull" of the Oberth, which is actually just a massive sensor arrray**. It holds Deck 5 of the ship, which is really just an access walkway that gives physical access to the myriad of sensor packages mounted there for repairs, maintenance, and physical reconfiguring or removal of components. The forward end of Deck 5 also houses the ship's only photon torpedo tube/probe launcher. In a highly unusual design decision, Deck 5 is only accessible by Jeffries Crawl Tubes down the pylons, or by short-range transporter. There is no turbolift or standard stairwell access. It was implemented this way as it was envisioned that there would be very little use made of “Deck 5”.

The Saucer section is a bare 60m in diameter and contains a mere 4 decks, including the long, flat section that mounts the saucer and the warp nacelles. That long flat deck is the Engineering deck, and has no scientific or crew-related facilities behind the rim of the saucer.

Within the habitable Saucer section, 3 small bay cutouts are visible around the saucer circumference. The one at the 12 o’clock position in front is the tiny shuttlebay, holding a single shuttlecraft. The two bays at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions are access doors for two small cargo bays. Each holds a single workbee, but no more shuttles. Further to that are the bridge module, escape pods, crew quarters, sickbay, laboratories, and some very limited recreational facilities, all vying for space within the confines of the saucer’s 4 decks.

The study came to the conclusion that a far bigger habitable section would be greatly desirable in a ship assigned to an extended duration mission with broad appeal. The additional space could be used for increased laboratory space, recreational facilities, and allow the embarking of a far larger complement of scientists, though the crew would only increase slightly.

With the Organian Peace Treaty in effect between the Klingons and the Federation, civilian missions began increasing in regularity and volume through the 2270s. There were many fascinating stellar phenomena within the Klingon sphere of influence that scores of civilian institutions from across the Federation and many friendly non-aligned worlds were interested in, and the number of petitions to the Federation Science Council for expeditions began to reach fever pitch. It was decided to implement the proposals of the aforementioned study and create a dedicated science cruiser for extended duration science missions away from “shore leave” opportunities.


USS T’lani NCC-3941

With the request from the Federation Science Council, backed by their Oberth Case Study data, Starfleet R&D quickly came up with the ideal solution. Since the only problem was a lack of habitable/usable space, they would attach the superb Oberth-class sensor pallet to a standard-sized Class 1B starship saucer and nacelles. The internal arrangement of the saucer was reconfigured to give private cabins with built-in workstations for a maximum of 200 scientists as well as extensive recreational and “downtime” facilities on Decks 5 & 6. Private cabins for a maximum of 50 crew were sited on Deck 4, and Decks 2 & 3 were configured as the crew’s administrative centre, with 2 extra docking ports for personnel transfers. Decks 7 through 11 are almost exclusively dedicated to scientific facilities such as sensor arrays, laboratories, library computer rooms, real-time data uplinks to other institutions and facilities, and probe control rooms, though Deck 7 also houses sickbay, transporters, and the small cargo bays.

Engineering consists of most of the aft section of Deck 6, where an modified destroyer-type warp reactor is mounted flush with the upper surface of the saucer forward of the impulse deflection crystal.

For the coupling of the Oberth sensor pallet to the saucer section, a few variations were tried. The original plan to use the Oberth pylons was quickly discarded and it was agreed upon to use a destroyer-style dorsal neck, for the same reasons given above: it was deemed wasteful of power to beam down 10 metres to the sensor array, and civilian scientists may have objected to getting themselves dishevelled crawling down the curved, zero-g Jeffries Tubes. With the use of a dorsal neck, stairwell and turbolift access could be provided, as could additional conference rooms and viewing galleries.

It was decided fairly late on to add a full-sized shuttle bay to the design, but it was deemed that a science cruiser should have the ability to carry a scientific shuttle or two as well. A fully equipped bay with 2 shuttle capacity was mounted at the top of the dorsal neck at the rear edge, and allowed the storage of several more travel pods.

For defence, the standard saucer phaser complement of 6 banks of twin emitters is included, though they are downgraded to type 3 phasers. The standard Oberth-class photon torpedo arrangement and complement is included, with 10 torpedoes firing from the probe launcher at the front of the sensor pallet. A standard destroyer-level shield grid is mounted.

With the destroyer-level power plant and SIF this vessel is capable of warp 6 cruising and warp 8 emergency speeds, and her sensor range is increased 200% over that of the standard Oberth, though maximum resolution is the same.



* This figure from Ex Astris Scientia. The Andre Probert chart pegs her at 120m, but that is too small for even 4 decks in the saucer, and I'm following Bernd's lead.
** While not stated in canon, and possibly contradicted in canon by the MSD of the SS Vico in 'TNG: Hero Worship', from a practical/engineering viewpoint, I think it makes the most sense. Who makes a habitable secondary hull you have to beam into?
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Offline kadh2000

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 11:34:29 am »
Of the three designs, I voted for the second.  I originally liked the third one the best, but after some thought went with the second.  What decided me was your comments about the engines interfering with the sensors.  Maybe they should build it that way anyhow so the skippers have something to complain about.  I immediately rejected the first design because of the lack of turbolift shafts.  The only thing I don't really like about the second design (and the first too has this flaw) is that the engines are attached directly to the saucer.  I know in smaller ships, the Feds do this anyway.  But you gave this guy big engines.  Why not attach the pylons to the sensor pod?  Of course, then it would look like you're making another Enterprise variant.
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Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2007, 11:48:47 am »
Thanks for your feedback, Kadh!

I didn't attach the nacelles to the Oberth Pod because it is just a sensor pallet (in my universe) and is merely a shell for a huge and varied collection of scientific sensors, and a probe launcher. It has no load-bearing points to mount nacelles, and the whole point here is that it is the same pod used on the Oberth, so I have no engineering section in it anyway.

So many of the Fed designs - full-sized ones too, the Ptolemy being the first example - attach the nacelles directly to the saucer.  I could do a Coronado-style hull build-up for Engineering to address this, give space for the warp reactor. I suppose I could alsso fair the Oberth pod onto the bottom of, say, the Vikraant-class fire support cruiser's secondary hull (minus the photon tubes, obviously) and have that be the engineering section. It's something else to try.

I have to say I am kinda fond of Variant 3 myself, but the extra superstructure makes me think of it as a "heavy science cruiser" or a "large science cruiser".
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Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 11:50:18 am »
95 views and only 4 votes? C'mon people! I'm needing your help!
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Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 08:51:04 pm »
Hehehe my vote was the first! Can't complain about that!

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Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2007, 05:33:22 am »
Design 2 makes the most sense to me.  The nacelles are up and away from the sensor pod, which removes any need for special shielding from engine emissions.  And it looks better :)
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Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2007, 08:44:28 am »
Thanks for the feedback, Maxillius! I prefer Version 2 as well, but Larry, that evil evil Klink, suggested I raise the nacelles above the saucer for the Shuttlecarrier Mod, so I mightbe giving that a go just for looks (and kicks). If I get it done, I'll post a pic here.

And thanks for your first vote, Mohab!
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Offline James Smith

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards latest baby
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2007, 03:24:13 pm »
For #3, We'd have to spend some more money shielding the sensors, more overtime to get the project out of dock on time, probably unreliable at best and a big mistake according to her captains. This, therefore, is the superior design.

Seriously though, I like #3 the best, all jokes aside, I'd think that they'd shield the sensors enough from warp emissions that it wouldn't make that big of a difference.


Which do we think is more likely?

1) They spend money on shielding the sensor array from warp engine emissions.
2) They de-tune the warp engines, making them less powerful and thus less likely to affect the sensor array.

After all - it's a science ship, not a ship built for battle. It doesn't necessarily need lots of power from the nacelles, does it?

That might be some of my cynicism creeping in - hell, you only have to read the first page of one of my storied on here to 'get' my view on the folks supposedly in charge of stuff. I can just see a meeting where various engineers made a pitch for super-duper sensor shielding only to get told "sorry, too expensive". Some bright spark then pops up and suggests in a sycophantic tone that they could simply reduce the M/AM flow rate to the warp core, thus reducing engine power to levels that wouldn't interfere with the sensors and as an added bonus save on operating costs. The top brass would nod approvingly, decree "make it so" and the engineers would be sent off to build something cheap with no engine power whatsoever.

*sigh*

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Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2007, 07:08:57 pm »
lol, Smithy... even with all that, you still didn't manage to tell me which version you prefer.
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Offline KOTH-KieranXC, Ret.

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2007, 08:59:27 pm »
Question for all of you.

Why does it have to follow that an angled neck would preclude the presence of turboshafts? That, in my mind, would be incredible, nearly unforgivable stupidity on the part of the designer if it were the case, to design a ship(the Oberth) where the only way to get from section to section is crawling or transporting. So if you indeed could not have a turboshaft through an angled neck... then why the hell are there designs like the Oberth and Ulysses?

Now, proceeding from there... why exactly does an angled neck/pylon preclude the presence of the turboshaft? Frankly, I think you're all a bit off base in simply assuming that a turboshaft couldn't go through an angled neck. This is the 23rd century after all; they have energy weapons, transporters, FTL engines and communications, deflector shields, etc, etc. Personally, I don't see why they couldn't have a turbolift that travels at an angle. Now, perhaps a standard turbolift system might not work, so they'd have to have someone design a specialized turbolift, but I don't see why that's so implausible. Hell, the ship in the B5 spinoff Crusade had travel cars(their scaled up equivalent to a turbolift) that traveled through a shaft that sometimes curved, and B5 tech in many places isn't half as advanced as Trek is. I think some of you, in the quest for precision, are being SO nitpicky that you're working yourselves a little off base. But, that's just my not so humble opinion. ;D

In case you couldn't tell from my impromptu rant, I do prefer variant one over the others. However, Andy, I personally believe it would look better if you replaced the Oberth pylons with something that goes with the ship, if you know what I mean. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice design, but those pylons just scream 'kitbash' to me. Still though, a good design.
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Offline Governor Ronjar

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2007, 10:19:07 pm »
Question for all of you.

Why does it have to follow that an angled neck would preclude the presence of turboshafts?

I don't think any one has such ideas about 'angled necks'. More the idea arises from the apparent thinness of the pylons holding the Oberth-Class's sensor pod to the rest of the ship. A tiny, one or two man lift MIGHT even make it through such a pylon, but then, there is a 30-35 degree angle about 1/4 of the way down said pylons that would make even a tiny lift nearly impossible to emplace. Therefor most folk theorize either a crawlway or beam over system, or that the pod is entirely unmanned to begin with. Myself...I'd be willing to believe that those pylons were too narrow even for a crawlway...if said craft existed at all. [I actually have a pic of the Oberth model from TNG that shows all kind of damage and the layout of the decks... It's kind of revieling.]

I voted for #2, btw. The dorsal neck arrangment.

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Offline KOTH-KieranXC, Ret.

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2007, 10:25:16 pm »
Guv,

Andy stated that "...and the angled nature would almost preclude a turbolift and make it stairwell access only." That's where I was coming from. I think you might have out-thought yourself on this one, Andy. ;)

Now, if it's a question of thickness, as you mentioned, there I'd agree, but again, I have a very simple solution - design thicker pylons. :flame:

Ain't I a stinker? ;D
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Offline Governor Ronjar

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2007, 10:44:42 pm »
Ok...I reread the part where he posted it. I figured he was speaking about the Oberth pylons, but in that section they were talking about a completely different ship design. My bad...

So in that, I agree with you. We know the Conny had turbolift access to the engineering hull. And she had an angled neck. On a neck with a severe angle, simple turboshaft redesign fits the bill.

Anywho, I try to shy away from getting too technical. It's a trap for me. This one got my attention, tho.

--thu guv!
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Offline James Smith

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Re: Clyde Fleet Yards' latest baby
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2007, 02:07:20 am »
lol, Smithy... even with all that, you still didn't manage to tell me which version you prefer.

3.

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