Topic: For my next set of servers . . .

[Dfly]

I also think that servers from now on should start players with obscenely high starting PPs, like 100,000 or a million.  That would obliterate any distinction between nutters and the casual players in terms of PP. It would make mission PP payoffs meaningless and it would probably also make losing a ship relatively meaningless in terms of replacing it.  It would basically make PP meaningless in terms of its scarcity which I think is a good thing.

I actually like this idea and fully understand where this is coming from.
 As for now:  On Day 5 I(not Dfly, just some smoe) am finally home for the weekend, with only 2 days where I can play.  Do I want to fly missions for some 8 hours so I can get enough PP to buy a good DN and equip it? Heck, I only have about 3-4 hours I can play on a Saturday, and maybe if I am lucky I can get the same amount of time in on Sunday.  Great, after a full weekend I now have enough PP to play a big ship next weekend or whenever I can get back, provided I did not lose too many ships vs AI and vs Rocks.
I go back to work(say out of town or wherever) and finally come back on the next weekend and after the server is 2 weeks old I can finally fly something nice and try to get some PvP.

Let's say for arguement sakes That Lepton's idea is done on a future server. 
On Day 5 I(not Dfly, just some smoe) am finally home for the weekend, with only 2 days where I can play.  I log on, see there is room for a BCH, buy one, go do PvP, win the first battle, get all confidenced, and go at it again.  "Shoots I lost a ship.  The other team just got 7 points for it.  Dang, Let me buy another, and go kill someone else.  Shoots, I lost another, but dang that was fun.  I am having a blast already.  I had just better watch I dont lose too many of those as they hurt the team."
Been on the server for 1 hour 7 minutes, had 3 battles and had a blast.  A few hours later I log off and feel like, wow, that was great.

AS for the Hex flippers, it does not affect you at all other than what, the first 10 missions where you build up enough PP to buy a good flipper?  Now you must be a little more carefull around a front line as maybe a few more people want to find some PvP than before.

Think about it.

I know DH and a few others most likely will think this would be bad for the community, but unless we give it a try, or something similar, how would you truly know.

AS a suggestion, perhaps start with enough PP that you can afford to lose maybe 2 DN or equivalent before your PP runs out and then you must work to build it up if you wish to continue.

[Julin Eurthyr]

I'd fly for your pure PvP server, but as a SAC/SCC type of guy, tell me how the following can occur / be blocked:

1.  I want to run a fast land-grab with 1/4 of my force as a feint, drawing disproportionate defenders to block the area.  Remember, without defenders in an area, to initiate missions, my troops presence in the sector will be unknown.
2.  I want to follow the maxim of "he who brings the most guns, wins".  I send 30 players to assault strategic point X, knowing that only 5 defenders will be there to cover the area.  Even if I draft 3 on 1's, I still have 15 players "drinking beer" and doing nothing to help strike that spot.  What shall they be doing to secure the region for me.
3.  Under a pure PvP only to secure space plan, I can defend any sector by issuing the following order:  DO NOT SET FOOT ON HEX XX,YY.  If none of my ships hit said hex, then nobody can flip it, and it stays in posession of my team all server.  If hexes don't flip because nobody's defending them, how would a side get points?

Answer me those 3 points, and we'll talk pure PvP server.  Until then, we need the AI and tons of "boring" missions, as they're the only way to affect the map in the absence of opposition.

Or, you could do as suggested by many others and set up a ladder league (all PvP) or one of those cyberboard F&E conflicts where days/weeks pass between turns in an effort to set up maneuvers, resolve via pure PvP all combats so generated, allow people to flip hexes in an uncontested manner, etc. etc.

[Lepton]

Julin,

My answer is very simple.  I am not talking about a strategic game.  I am talking about a bunch of guys who like SFC get on a server and try to fight fairly even PvP battles because:

1.  SFC is fun.
2.  PvP is fun.
3.  PvP with a pseudo-strategic context makes the encounters more meaningful and gives a different set of tactical options and victory conditions.

People will PvP because they want to.  People will PvP because it's a game and it is fun.

All the stuff you are talking about is asymmetrical warfare, denying tactics and such, in essence a bunch of nerdy strategy BS.  I am talking about something more like a basketball game, even sides, everyone plays.  A game, not an empire.  I'm talking about fun, not frustrating people because all their hard-earned flipping was overturned by some set of guys running 2 minute missions in some other part of the world or in some other time when he or she wasn't there to defend.

The kind of pussy crap you are talking about is sneaking up behind a guy, bashing him over the head, and stealing his wallet.  The kind of stuff I am talking about is walking up to him, spitting in his eye, and saying "Put up your dukes!"  All tongue in cheek here of course, but you get the idea. 

We are talking about a totally different attitude.  Do you know I have heard and seen discussion in coalition and allied forums of "demoralizing" the other side so that they (the opposition) won't come on the server?  This is the mind set here on the D2.  It's abhorrent and vomitous.

[FPF-DieHard]

Lepton, I reall think turn-based campaigns are more of what you are looking for than D2.  D2 is what it is, and it is primarily a game about hex-fliping.

If you'd like to do a turn-based startegy game with real-time resolution, count me it but I think most of your D2 ideas are square-peg in round-hole.

[Hexx]

On Day 5 I(not Dfly, just some smoe) am finally home for the weekend, with only 2 days where I can play.  I log on, see there is room for a BCH, buy one, go do PvP, win the first battle, get all confidenced, and go at it again.  "Shoots I lost a ship.  The other team just got 7 points for it.  Dang, Let me buy another, and go kill someone else.  Shoots, I lost another, but dang that was fun.  I am having a blast already.  I had just better watch I dont lose too many of those as they hurt the team."
Been on the server for 1 hour 7 minutes, had 3 battles and had a blast.  A few hours later I log off and feel like, wow, that was great.

AS for the Hex flippers, it does not affect you at all other than what, the first 10 missions where you build up enough PP to buy a good flipper?  Now you must be a little more carefull around a front line as maybe a few more people want to find some PvP than before.

Think about it.

I know DH and a few others most likely will think this would be bad for the community, but unless we give it a try, or something similar, how would you truly know.

AS a suggestion, perhaps start with enough PP that you can afford to lose maybe 2 DN or equivalent before your PP runs out and then you must work to build it up if you wish to continue.

!!!!
might be a bit much- if there was a fun free for all server I could see it- but think about it- how many people ill stop and say "Wow I better stop- I'm hurting the team" and how many would just say "f*%k!  I've lost 6 BCH's on the first day, maybe I shoudl start a new account!

Now- if someone has earned the prestige for those 6 BCH's- well at least they've contributed to their side by flipping some hexes , probably not (in VP terms) to make up for the loss of 6 ships- but they're contributing... so who cares.

[Hexx]

Julin,

My answer is very simple.  I am not talking about a strategic game.  I am talking about a bunch of guys who like SFC get on a server and try to fight fairly even PvP battles because:

I honestly can't point to alot of players we have who like to fight "fairly even battles" on the D2. Most of them want to fight
"battles that are just close enough that the other guy decides to stick around , but really doesn't stand much in the chance of winning"

Heck when I was actually playing, some of the most fun I had was trying to figure out where players were hitting, and jumping their hopefully damaged vs the Ai ship with by perfectly healthy one.


I think you're looking for something more along the lines of the old (is it still going?) PBR league
Sign up, and have 6 guys battle it out with 2 failry even sides.

[Lepton]

Julin,

My answer is very simple.  I am not talking about a strategic game.  I am talking about a bunch of guys who like SFC get on a server and try to fight fairly even PvP battles because:

I honestly can't point to a lot of players we have who like to fight "fairly even battles" on the D2. Most of them want to fight
"battles that are just close enough that the other guy decides to stick around , but really doesn't stand much in the chance of winning"

Heck when I was actually playing, some of the most fun I had was trying to figure out where players were hitting, and jumping their hopefully damaged vs the Ai ship with by perfectly healthy one.


I think you're looking for something more along the lines of the old (is it still going?) PBR league
Sign up, and have 6 guys battle it out with 2 failry even sides.

That's specious.  I have no doubt that people like to win, but I think folks will take a fair fight over jumping someone any day.  Also, I am about sick of being told that I need to go elsewhere i.e. GSA or a league, etc.  What I am looking for is a fair and equitable dynaverse that honors players' efforts (a one hour PvP fight vs. an hour of 2 minute AI missions) and honors players' skills (skilled PvP vs unskilled hex-flipping) and honors players' time (the casual player getting shafted vs. the glory of being a nutter).  Frankly, I think people need to grow up a bit here.  You've had your little fiefdom.  It's time to make things more equitable for people who actually want to see their efforts mean something on a server without spending hours online and without running a lot of boring AI missions.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Julin,

My answer is very simple.  I am not talking about a strategic game.  I am talking about a bunch of guys who like SFC get on a server and try to fight fairly even PvP battles because:

I honestly can't point to a lot of players we have who like to fight "fairly even battles" on the D2. Most of them want to fight
"battles that are just close enough that the other guy decides to stick around , but really doesn't stand much in the chance of winning"

Heck when I was actually playing, some of the most fun I had was trying to figure out where players were hitting, and jumping their hopefully damaged vs the Ai ship with by perfectly healthy one.


I think you're looking for something more along the lines of the old (is it still going?) PBR league
Sign up, and have 6 guys battle it out with 2 failry even sides.

That's specious.  I have no doubt that people like to win, but I think folks will take a fair fight over jumping someone any day.  Also, I am about sick of being told that I need to go elsewhere i.e. GSA or a league, etc.  What I am looking for is a fair and equitable dynaverse that honors players' efforts (a one hour PvP fight vs. an hour of 2 minute AI missions) and honors players' skills (skilled PvP vs unskilled hex-flipping) and honors players' time (the casual player getting shafted vs. the glory of being a nutter).  Frankly, I think people need to grow up a bit here.  You've had your little fiefdom.  It's time to make things more equitable for people who actually want to see their efforts mean something on a server without spending hours online and without running a lot of boring AI missions.

Okay.

Let's try this again.

Only let's try it your way...

1.  I only want PvP.  Now, to make that match happen, you need to log in and find:
a - an opponent online
b - at least 1 of said opponents being ready and willing to fight
c - negotiate terms of battle & hex (terrain)
d - engage in combat.

The above sounds exactly like what happens in a Gamespy Lobby!!!!

2.  You want a strategic campaign so these losses mean something
a - you need to convince your opponent to actually fight over there resource.  Or are we all of a sudden super-magnamious to let you dictate what hexes we're gonna fight over.  Trust me, I'll PvP you till my bank is dry, but I won't fight a single battle on one of my VC points unless I have a superior (2x BPV) advantage.

3.  You want to avoid the entire farming of PP
a - you've said it.  I'll have billions of PP and ships will be worth, at most, hundreds of PP.  I can sit here all server, throwing I-BBVZs at you, knowing that it won't hurt the map VCs.

Hmmm...

No Map VCs will count, it'll be a 50/50 spread all server.  PvP points are nothing more than a weighted win/loss record.  You'll be forced to negotiate terms & locations (conditions), but, if you're not already in the chosen ship, wait out a shipyard cycle or 2 or 20 to get into it.

Meanwhile, you can hop into a Gamespy lobby, find an "honorable" player, dictate terms of combat (ships / terrain), enter a room, pick that ship instantly, engage, and report the score to an admin of some sort post-match.  Lepton, this is PBR, complete with near-D2esque fleeting rules.  And it saves you lots of time, bandwidth, and dropped mission issues...

And I've already covered why having actual strategic combat, ie, the map being affected in any reasonable way isn't happening on your server.

[FPF-DieHard]

I'll tell ya what Lepton, you come up with a Map, rules, VCs, all that stuff and I'll "make it go" to see if your ideas will work or not.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Now, my way:

1.  2 "matched" VC sites, yours at 20,17 mine at 23,20.
a - I sit on 22,19.  Obviously, I choose the biggest ship available (say, I-BBVZ) to be ready for any/all comers.  Meanwhile, you're off in your BBV on 21,18, waiting for the same thing to occur.
b - Don't expect me to move anytime soon, I want to advance, not risk losing a sector to you.  I'm sure you're probably thinking the same thing.  Day 1 shot with no combat.
c - Day 2.  Being the PvP hound you are, you actually con me into a H-DWH vs I-DDVZ combat.  Due to the vagraties of the shipyard, it takes me 1 hour to actually find one, 10 minutes to purchase it and outfit it.  Finally, you come into my hex and engage.  Repeatedly, forgetting that we're on a "stock" fighterlist, and my Caveat III fighters chew yours to shreds in one pass, then one squadron wipes your ship out on the second pass.  Repeat for 20 battles.  Luckily, I'm now ready to fight you on your VC world.  Do you continue to engage, or do you seek PvP elsewhere?  I'd venture elsewhere, not wanting to hurt the team and all that...
d - Day 3.  I'm off to work all day, so we don't fight.
e - Day 4.  We meet again, but you still don't want to risk losing your planet to me.  Combat ensues in another meaningless empty hex.  After another cheese induced - Caveat III / PPD fed 20 game winning streak, I still am no closer to my map VC, and, while I hold a 40-0 record at this point, I haven't hurt a single players PP count, due to the no-farming rule.  I could go a full week / month of these battles and nobody feels the pain...

The entire server plays out this way.  People waiting hours after negotiating battles, if they even find one.  Nobody willing to risk a fight over a VC, so the map's been rendered moot anyway.  The only thing that matters in the end are the various win-loss records...

Tell me, is this your vision of a D2 server?  I will not waste my time on this kind of server. 
If I want honorable combat over meaningless space, I'll challenge DH to a few rounds on Gamespy.
If I want my won-loss record to count for more than bragging rites, I'll play a ladder league.
If I want my ladder to come with fleet rules, I'll play PBR.
If I want a map, with VC worlds, where an attacker can force the defender to engage or cede the sight, I'll play Cyberboard F&E.

[Hexx]

That's specious.

Hey- I like all species equally- keep yer accusations to yerself...

  I have no doubt that people like to win, but I think folks will take a fair fight over jumping someone any day. 

Really?

Now- I admit I haven't played a heck of alot over the last year or so- but have they cahnged that much? The D2 experience I remember wasn't 10 people logged on for each side setting up even ship duels, it was players with the best combination of DN +ship + ship permitted by the rules trying to drive people away from hexes so that other people with the best mission time ships could take /defend the hex.

Also, I am about sick of being told that I need to go elsewhere i.e. GSA or a league, etc.  What I am looking for is a fair and equitable dynaverse that honors players' efforts (a one hour PvP fight vs. an hour of 2 minute AI missions) and honors players' skills (skilled PvP vs unskilled hex-flipping) and honors players' time (the casual player getting shafted vs. the glory of being a nutter).  Frankly, I think people need to grow up a bit here.  You've had your little fiefdom.  It's time to make things more equitable for people who actually want to see their efforts mean something on a server without spending hours online and without running a lot of boring AI missions.

I thinkl they *do* need to grow up- but I'm talking about you.
All your arguments break down to is "I want my PVP to count for something and I hate hex flipping"
That's fine- honestly I'd love to see my PVP (such as it is) count for something and I also hate hex flipping, but I (and everyone else that's really responded here) has kinda said the game's not going to work like that wothout some major changes.

Now *If* you're some kind of super fantatsic SQL guy who can set that up for us great! I would serioulsy love to fly on your server, but it seems like you're demanding (and apologies if you're not) that someone set up a server how *you* want it.
Which is fine in and of itself- just don;'t have a fit if no one does it for you.

DH has said if you can set something up he'll run it- and I'd (if you're willing to listen) will be more than happy to look at any idea you've got and give my honest opinion.
I don;t think it's going to be workable, but that's just me- the universe probably won't collapse if I'm wrong. (itt'd be cool if it did but..)
But come up with a complete rules set, come up with a workable system and post it.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I have no doubt that people like to win, but I think folks will take a fair fight over jumping someone any day.

I don't tested it too many times, people are generally more interested in running people out of hexes for strategic reasons.  This "hexflipper" probably has sought out more "equal" PvP matches than many who would call themselves P V P pilots.  I don't consider myself a PvP pilot though because I normally don't do this.  Occassionally I get the urge however.

Also, I am about sick of being told that I need to go elsewhere i.e. GSA or a league, etc.

Well welcome to the club, your comments have basically seemed to be telling hexflippers that they aren't wanted.  At least thats how I see them.   

What I am looking for is a fair and equitable dynaverse that honors players' efforts (a one hour PvP fight vs. an hour of 2 minute AI missions) and honors players' skills (skilled PvP vs unskilled hex-flipping) and honors players' time (the casual player getting shafted vs. the glory of being a nutter). 

I have no problem having more PP given for a PvP win, more is given now, but I have no problem with more.  However, a good PvP pilot already has enough, if he's good he doesn't get killed, or at least not often enough he can replace his ship with a meager effort.  He doesn't need a DN, most good PvP matches involve heavy cruisers of BCHs which take very little time to earn.  With a starting ship as a command cruiser, its really totally lame IMHO to whine about not having enough PP for PvP.  If you lose your ship in the first 5 minutes of a server, just start a new account.  You will always have enough for a command cruiser, the best class for an even PvP until at least late era. 

If you want to start with a ton of prestige your not being equitable, your just being lazy and promoting a DN/BB fest.  The light and heavy cruisers are the workhorses of the navy, this is where PvP works best from a realistic position as well as a game balance one, since the command cruisers and light cruisers are the best balanced.

Frankly, I think people need to grow up a bit here.

I think most people are fine.

You've had your little fiefdom.

And you will too when YOU put up YOUR server, or convince someone that YOUR ideas are better.  I wish you luck, and hope you can find enough interested people to play on this scheme.  Design a map, a shiplist, and a set of rules and ask Frey to host it, I think he would.  If there isn't a server up that I'm interested in I simply don't play, nothing wrong with suggestions, and your are most certainly welcome, even if I totally disagree with you, I have my opinion you have your, both deserve consideration from those putting up servers and it is the admins choice about what to do.  If you don't see what you like you can choose not to play, or better yet, put up one of your own in which you get the final descision.  That little fiefdom you mention is one made by the people who took the trouble to put up servers for the enjoyment of others, including yourself.  Remember that.  The admin will ALWAYS have THEIR fiefdom for THEIR servers, they deserve to.

It's time to make things more equitable for people who actually want to see their efforts mean something on a server without spending hours online and without running a lot of boring AI missions.

I think your looking for something that the D2 wasn't designed to do.  You might could make it work doing IP matches to effect a game board instead of actually playing on a map.  Then you wouldn't have to worry about ship costs, time online etc.  I think this was tried before and failed due to a lack of interest by sufficient numbers.  But maybe its time again to try to design it, I wish you luck in your efforts to do so. 

I do, however find it kinda funny that you ask  for something more equitable for people who don't spend alot of time on the server at the expense of those who do spend alot of time on it.  I guess your definition of equitable in this regard is different from mine.  I think someone who spends twice the time, might just deserve something for doing so.  The guy who stays up 2 extra hours when he wants to sleep to run those extra missions to take that planet, when the guy who doesn't want to bother with "boring ai missions" goes to bed on schedule.  The guy who doesn't go to the movies during a server, so that he can defend his home space.  The guy who jumps into a hexflipper when needed as opposed to the guy who can't be bothered to do so.  The guy who plays for his team most of the time, and not just when it suits him to do so.  Personally, I hink this guy deserves something. 

Not everyone has the disposable time that some others have for this and that is fine, you do what you can and what you are willing to do.  Casual players usually decide servers more than "nutters" although nutters have their moments to shine.  but casual players do so collectively as part of the team.  If you want to have the same effect as a nutter individually, you had better put comparable time in, or hone your PvP skills to the point where you can. 

Look at Dizzy, he has tremendous impact without being a hex flipper.  Why?  Because he is a damned good pilot, he fights matches with even or sometimes long odds, he knows what ship to be in to do so trading up or down to help his team.  Maybe you don't have the same amount of time as Dizzy does, but if you follow his example, you will have a very noticable impact.

[marstone]

A salute for Kat on that.  A dang good answer.

[Lepton]

Now, my way:

1.  2 "matched" VC sites, yours at 20,17 mine at 23,20.
a - I sit on 22,19.  Obviously, I choose the biggest ship available (say, I-BBVZ) to be ready for any/all comers.  Meanwhile, you're off in your BBV on 21,18, waiting for the same thing to occur.
b - Don't expect me to move anytime soon, I want to advance, not risk losing a sector to you.  I'm sure you're probably thinking the same thing.  Day 1 shot with no combat.
c - Day 2.  Being the PvP hound you are, you actually con me into a H-DWH vs I-DDVZ combat.  Due to the vagraties of the shipyard, it takes me 1 hour to actually find one, 10 minutes to purchase it and outfit it.  Finally, you come into my hex and engage.  Repeatedly, forgetting that we're on a "stock" fighterlist, and my Caveat III fighters chew yours to shreds in one pass, then one squadron wipes your ship out on the second pass.  Repeat for 20 battles.  Luckily, I'm now ready to fight you on your VC world.  Do you continue to engage, or do you seek PvP elsewhere?  I'd venture elsewhere, not wanting to hurt the team and all that...
d - Day 3.  I'm off to work all day, so we don't fight.
e - Day 4.  We meet again, but you still don't want to risk losing your planet to me.  Combat ensues in another meaningless empty hex.  After another cheese induced - Caveat III / PPD fed 20 game winning streak, I still am no closer to my map VC, and, while I hold a 40-0 record at this point, I haven't hurt a single players PP count, due to the no-farming rule.  I could go a full week / month of these battles and nobody feels the pain...

The entire server plays out this way.  People waiting hours after negotiating battles, if they even find one.  Nobody willing to risk a fight over a VC, so the map's been rendered moot anyway.  The only thing that matters in the end are the various win-loss records...

Tell me, is this your vision of a D2 server?  I will not waste my time on this kind of server. 
If I want honorable combat over meaningless space, I'll challenge DH to a few rounds on Gamespy.
If I want my won-loss record to count for more than bragging rites, I'll play a ladder league.
If I want my ladder to come with fleet rules, I'll play PBR.
If I want a map, with VC worlds, where an attacker can force the defender to engage or cede the sight, I'll play Cyberboard F&E.

Tell you what, Julin, if you can articulate this same negative, distopian view of the current dynaverse setup then maybe I might pay attention to what you are saying.  Until you do, you're on ignore.

Short answer is things happen on the server because you like to play against people.  Shorter answer is BBs are boring.  People won't fly them especially if you have a cap ship limit.

[Lepton]

I have no doubt that people like to win, but I think folks will take a fair fight over jumping someone any day.

I don't tested it too many times, people are generally more interested in running people out of hexes for strategic reasons.  This "hexflipper" probably has sought out more "equal" PvP matches than many who would call themselves P V P pilots.  I don't consider myself a PvP pilot though because I normally don't do this.  Occassionally I get the urge however.

Also, I am about sick of being told that I need to go elsewhere i.e. GSA or a league, etc.

Well welcome to the club, your comments have basically seemed to be telling hexflippers that they aren't wanted.  At least thats how I see them.   

What I am looking for is a fair and equitable dynaverse that honors players' efforts (a one hour PvP fight vs. an hour of 2 minute AI missions) and honors players' skills (skilled PvP vs unskilled hex-flipping) and honors players' time (the casual player getting shafted vs. the glory of being a nutter). 

I have no problem having more PP given for a PvP win, more is given now, but I have no problem with more.  However, a good PvP pilot already has enough, if he's good he doesn't get killed, or at least not often enough he can replace his ship with a meager effort.  He doesn't need a DN, most good PvP matches involve heavy cruisers of BCHs which take very little time to earn.  With a starting ship as a command cruiser, its really totally lame IMHO to whine about not having enough PP for PvP.  If you lose your ship in the first 5 minutes of a server, just start a new account.  You will always have enough for a command cruiser, the best class for an even PvP until at least late era. 

If you want to start with a ton of prestige your not being equitable, your just being lazy and promoting a DN/BB fest.  The light and heavy cruisers are the workhorses of the navy, this is where PvP works best from a realistic position as well as a game balance one, since the command cruisers and light cruisers are the best balanced.

Frankly, I think people need to grow up a bit here.

I think most people are fine.

You've had your little fiefdom.

And you will too when YOU put up YOUR server, or convince someone that YOUR ideas are better.  I wish you luck, and hope you can find enough interested people to play on this scheme.  Design a map, a shiplist, and a set of rules and ask Frey to host it, I think he would.  If there isn't a server up that I'm interested in I simply don't play, nothing wrong with suggestions, and your are most certainly welcome, even if I totally disagree with you, I have my opinion you have your, both deserve consideration from those putting up servers and it is the admins choice about what to do.  If you don't see what you like you can choose not to play, or better yet, put up one of your own in which you get the final descision.  That little fiefdom you mention is one made by the people who took the trouble to put up servers for the enjoyment of others, including yourself.  Remember that.  The admin will ALWAYS have THEIR fiefdom for THEIR servers, they deserve to.

It's time to make things more equitable for people who actually want to see their efforts mean something on a server without spending hours online and without running a lot of boring AI missions.

I think your looking for something that the D2 wasn't designed to do.  You might could make it work doing IP matches to effect a game board instead of actually playing on a map.  Then you wouldn't have to worry about ship costs, time online etc.  I think this was tried before and failed due to a lack of interest by sufficient numbers.  But maybe its time again to try to design it, I wish you luck in your efforts to do so. 

I do, however find it kinda funny that you ask  for something more equitable for people who don't spend alot of time on the server at the expense of those who do spend alot of time on it.  I guess your definition of equitable in this regard is different from mine.  I think someone who spends twice the time, might just deserve something for doing so.  The guy who stays up 2 extra hours when he wants to sleep to run those extra missions to take that planet, when the guy who doesn't want to bother with "boring ai missions" goes to bed on schedule.  The guy who doesn't go to the movies during a server, so that he can defend his home space.  The guy who jumps into a hexflipper when needed as opposed to the guy who can't be bothered to do so.  The guy who plays for his team most of the time, and not just when it suits him to do so.  Personally, I hink this guy deserves something. 

Not everyone has the disposable time that some others have for this and that is fine, you do what you can and what you are willing to do.  Casual players usually decide servers more than "nutters" although nutters have their moments to shine.  but casual players do so collectively as part of the team.  If you want to have the same effect as a nutter individually, you had better put comparable time in, or hone your PvP skills to the point where you can. 

Look at Dizzy, he has tremendous impact without being a hex flipper.  Why?  Because he is a damned good pilot, he fights matches with even or sometimes long odds, he knows what ship to be in to do so trading up or down to help his team.  Maybe you don't have the same amount of time as Dizzy does, but if you follow his example, you will have a very noticable impact.

My suggestion is that you re-examine the fundamental premises of everything you just said.  I understand your points.  Do you understand mine?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

My suggestion is that you re-examine the fundamental premises of everything you just said.  I understand your points.  Do you understand mine?

I think Hexx summed yours up rather well

All your arguments break down to is "I want my PVP to count for something and I hate hex flipping"

And the fundamental premise looks fine to me, bigger impact for those who spend more time on the server, and who know how to be effective with PvP and hexflipping, over guys who spend less time on the server or who don't know how to use their PvP effectively, and those who are willing to provide roles as needed by the team.  Both flipping and PvP are needed and I think you severely underestimate what guys in PvP ships accomplish that isn't directly shown.  PvP guys can draft flippers and others on their bases forcing them off and into longer resupply situations.  This shows little on the map, but can help greatly in securing a front.  PvP guys can chase flippers and others off a planet helping make or break an assault, PvPers can score points by kills, PvPers can deter flippers from even coming into an area in some cases, PvPers can deter and stop deepstrikers, and when none of those tasks are available PvPers can flip hexes for the team.  If they don't want to do these roles, that is fine, but to complain about their impact not being extensive is just a bad argument. 

I think your issue is that you see PvP as a goal, not a method.  Nothing is wrong with that it just doesn't play well with others and not well on the D2.  I see it as a method, and as such fits very well in team play for team objectives.

[Dizzy]

I'd like to jump in here a bit and ask a question... How do we setup a server that will appeal to both camps, those that like to hex flip and those that like to do PvP? I'm wondering what the playerbase wants... not needing to know real soon, as it seems many have stepped forward with server plans, so the Slave Girls Series of servers will wait till we see some consensus in server design between these two divergent groups and have a lack of servers before making another go.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Tell you what, Julin, if you can articulate this same negative, distopian view of the current dynaverse setup then maybe I might pay attention to what you are saying.  Until you do, you're on ignore.

Now this is rich.  Just because I can't provide what you want, and know the system you are attempting to adapt physically cannot do so when it is forced to interact with basic human nature, while at the same time said engine provides most (granted not all, but then again, not everybody seeks the same things that I would, so compromise is necessary) of what I seek, you're gonna blatantly ignore me???

Unlike you, I am unable to rip a system apart that provides me enjoyment to the point where said system is proven incompatible with even 50% of what I seek.  If I could rip the D2 I enjoy apart that badly, then I'm not really enjoying the game now, am I???

Now, my way:

1.  2 "matched" VC sites, yours at 20,17 mine at 23,20.
a - I sit on 22,19.  Obviously, I choose the biggest ship available (say, I-BBVZ) to be ready for any/all comers.  Meanwhile, you're off in your BBV on 21,18, waiting for the same thing to occur.
b - Don't expect me to move anytime soon, I want to advance, not risk losing a sector to you.  I'm sure you're probably thinking the same thing.  Day 1 shot with no combat.
c - Day 2.  Being the PvP hound you are, you actually con me into a H-DWH vs I-DDVZ combat.  Due to the vagraties of the shipyard, it takes me 1 hour to actually find one, 10 minutes to purchase it and outfit it.  Finally, you come into my hex and engage.  Repeatedly, forgetting that we're on a "stock" fighterlist, and my Caveat III fighters chew yours to shreds in one pass, then one squadron wipes your ship out on the second pass.  Repeat for 20 battles.  Luckily, I'm now ready to fight you on your VC world.  Do you continue to engage, or do you seek PvP elsewhere?  I'd venture elsewhere, not wanting to hurt the team and all that...
d - Day 3.  I'm off to work all day, so we don't fight.
e - Day 4.  We meet again, but you still don't want to risk losing your planet to me.  Combat ensues in another meaningless empty hex.  After another cheese induced - Caveat III / PPD fed 20 game winning streak, I still am no closer to my map VC, and, while I hold a 40-0 record at this point, I haven't hurt a single players PP count, due to the no-farming rule.  I could go a full week / month of these battles and nobody feels the pain...

The entire server plays out this way.  People waiting hours after negotiating battles, if they even find one.  Nobody willing to risk a fight over a VC, so the map's been rendered moot anyway.  The only thing that matters in the end are the various win-loss records...

Tell me, is this your vision of a D2 server?  I will not waste my time on this kind of server. 
If I want honorable combat over meaningless space, I'll challenge DH to a few rounds on Gamespy.
If I want my won-loss record to count for more than bragging rites, I'll play a ladder league.
If I want my ladder to come with fleet rules, I'll play PBR.
If I want a map, with VC worlds, where an attacker can force the defender to engage or cede the sight, I'll play Cyberboard F&E.

Short answer is things happen on the server because you like to play against people.  Shorter answer is BBs are boring.  People won't fly them especially if you have a cap ship limit.

However, there are a number of things that I would like to see in D2:

Better shipyards.  Less cap/limited/specialty ships available, more line/command.  Availability should ultimately reflect what we want to see on the server, so if we want, say, 20% of the fleet limited, no more than 20% of the ships available through the yards should be so fancy.  And leave that 1 BB available all server up for bid for a week, so everyone gets a shot at it...
Better mission matching.  I'm tired of facing 600+ BPV fleets (3x carrier wings) when I'm in a 200 BPV ship with 2x100 BPV line wingmen.
Better chat.  Team (guild) channels along with the racial ones.
More meaningful PvP.  The in-game penalty of a whack to a PP account isn't enough, and separate VC lists are a pain.
Less distinction between nutter and casual player.  I, for one, can't just fly around 14x7 for a server.  I can't even put in a full day on the weekend.  Heck, on some of my more-played servers, I was lucky to afford a couple of BCHs...  I shouldn't be so penalized to make things barely hurt a nutter...

Admittedly, these missing things do not so completely ruin the experience for me that I feel I need to reinvent the wheel.  Modify it, sure, reinvent it, no.  Again, if I had to reinvent the wheel to give me the game I wanted, I wouldn't be here defending the "bad game"...

[Lepton]

I'd like to jump in here a bit and ask a question... How do we setup a server that will appeal to both camps, those that like to hex flip and those that like to do PvP? I'm wondering what the playerbase wants... not needing to know real soon, as it seems many have stepped forward with server plans, so the Slave Girls Series of servers will wait till we see some consensus in server design between these two divergent groups and have a lack of servers before making another go.

Dizzy, mine is an extreme minority view.  I don't believe it is indicative of any feelings among anyone else other than myself.  People are happy with things the way they are.  That they are happy is the problem for me.  If I could offer a moderate proposal, if we can get an SQL server working in a stable matter, I'd like to see a more significant DV shift for PvP battles.  If someone is in a mission for an hour or two hours, his time should count for something other than a 1 DV shift.  Perhaps a 10 or 20 DV shift.  This would make PvP meaningful on the map in a way that it really isn't now.

[Hexx]

Dizzy, mine is an extreme minority view.  I don't believe it is indicative of any feelings among anyone else other than myself.  People are happy with things the way they are.  That they are happy is the problem for me.  If I could offer a moderate proposal, if we can get an SQL server working in a stable matter, I'd like to see a more significant DV shift for PvP battles.  If someone is in a mission for an hour or two hours, his time should count for something other than a 1 DV shift.  Perhaps a 10 or 20 DV shift.  This would make PvP meaningful on the map in a way that it really isn't now.

I don't think you've got a minority view perse Lepton- I just think that most of the otehr people accept that there's some things we just can't do with the serverkit right now.
Yes maybe we can do it with SQL, and (iirc) there's a group working on SQL stuff, but of course they're doing it in their free time withot compensation so we can't expect much.
Sure if when (I'm going to to- you bastards just wait and see)I win a couple of Mil this weekend I'll happily fund someone (who works cheap) to make me a serverkit that does anything I want it to.

Then you'll all bow down and worship me..