Topic: For my next set of servers . . .

[Lepton]

I'd like to see smaller maps used in general and nearly ridiculously high DV values to negate hex flipping activities.  I left this past server because I could not stand any more missions vs the AI.  And when I hear people on comms running 2 minutes missions in DFs just to get a DV shift, I wonder what the hell any of us are doing and why the hell I am here at all.  Can we please try to find a way to minimize "vs AI" missions altogether?  I realize some people enjoy hex-flipping.  They are abhorrent and should be subjected to "extreme interrogation techniques" until they confess to their crimes.

I'd like to request larger maps with smaller defense values so that we can bring Lepton the proper reward for this post.   

I wonder if he realizes that ridulcously high DVs will take forever to turn without hex-flippers.

There would be no hex flipping on such a server.  All VCs would based on PvP.  I'd even suggest removing mandatories in enemy and neutral space so that you could literally encounter and/or hunt down someone anywhere.  I realize you enjoy the aspect of the game that I despise, but running AI missions bites in my opinion and it is certainly not the intent of the D2 as one could do the same as easily off-line.

[Lepton]

DH,

I am not looking for a real strategy game nor do I think anyone else is.  And it's not a question of PvP being available.  It's a question of PvP having any bearing on what occurs on a server in a substantive way.  Chuut said it best on comms any number of times.  While we're in there for hour or longer PvP missions, the hex could be flipped and done with.  So I say again.  What's the point?

I appreciate the efforts on the server admins to make PvP more influential on server outcomes, but I think to the degree that avoiding opposition is the most effective means of winning the war, it's still not where I'd like to see things.

In order to win on the D2, given equal player numbers you need both hex-flipping nd PvP if your enemy is willing to engge you.  If the enemy is, then you need to chase them off to prevent your flippers from beinbg run off.  There is usually plenty of things non-flippers can be doing, they just have to realize they have a certain role to perform, just as flippers have a role to perform.  Do Z-DF pilots bitch alot if they lose to a BCH or DN in battle?  If not, then why should a BCH or DN pilot bitch if they get out hex-flipped?  Know what your objective is at any given time and fly appropriately at that time.  Most folkes can find a use for their ships that is productive and/or fun at all times, if you can't it is not the games problem, but your own.

I don't expect you to be objective about this.  If you "enjoy" something that any sane person would consider mind-numbingly boring, I'd suggest that this is your own problem and not the game's.

And your strategic assessment of how you win a server or the roles one might engage in on a server are exceedingly constrained by what the game is now, not what it could be under another rule set or frankly another attitude.  That you would attempt to persuade me based on your insights into the obvious within the current D2 paradigm is about as effective as suggesting moderation to an alcoholic.

[Dizzy]

I remember the days where we used to actually fight for a hex... Where we had to have teams of PvP players sitting rock while while letting our flippers run below. The hex ban rule really comes into play here... but u have to have smaller maps and higher DV's for this to really work well. I think 20-30 DV hexes and a map about a 1/3 the size of last server might work well...

[FPF-DieHard]

I remember the days where we used to actually fight for a hex... Where we had to have teams of PvP players sitting rock while while letting our flippers run below. The hex ban rule really comes into play here... but u have to have smaller maps and higher DV's for this to really work well. I think 20-30 DV hexes and a map about a 1/3 the size of last server might work well...

We only fought over 10% of the map last server, maybe a 20x20 area.   How much smaller do you really want this to be?  People play this game for more than just PvP and you can't leave them out.

[FPF-DieHard]

I don't expect you to be objective about this.  If you "enjoy" something that any sane person would consider mind-numbingly boring, I'd suggest that this is your own problem and not the game's.

Blowing up AI is still fun, you have to admit it.   It would have to be otherwise the "PvP" pilots who spend 99% of the time fighting AI wouldn't do it.

With that said, perhaps now that ED has a Stable, nearly Bug-Free set of missions, it might be time to add some variety to make things a bit more interesting for that 99% of the server.  The current set of Base assaults definately fill that role, perhaps this needs to be expanded.

[el-Karnak]

I remember the days where we used to actually fight for a hex... Where we had to have teams of PvP players sitting rock while while letting our flippers run below. The hex ban rule really comes into play here... but u have to have smaller maps and higher DV's for this to really work well. I think 20-30 DV hexes and a map about a 1/3 the size of last server might work well...

We only fought over 10% of the map last server, maybe a 20x20 area.   How much smaller do you really want this to be?  People play this game for more than just PvP and you can't leave them out.

For example, some players like the following non-PvP activities:

• Deep Striking behind enemy lines to cause mayhem, confusion and be a general nuisance.  Some people like to replicate the RL Jeb Stuart cavalry rides of the US Civil War by circling behind the enemy, hehe. 
• Be part of base busting squads and take on difficult AI missions.
• Do hex flipping land grabs and implement strategic plans to maximize territorial VCs for their side.
• Explore a race's shiplist to try and find that "perfect" PvP ship by doing lotsa PvAI missions.

[el-Karnak]

I don't expect you to be objective about this.  If you "enjoy" something that any sane person would consider mind-numbingly boring, I'd suggest that this is your own problem and not the game's.

Blowing up AI is still fun, you have to admit it.   It would have to be otherwise the "PvP" pilots who spend 99% of the time fighting AI wouldn't do it.

With that said, perhaps now that ED has a Stable, nearly Bug-Free set of missions, it might be time to add some variety to make things a bit more interesting for that 99% of the server.  The current set of Base assaults definately fill that role, perhaps this needs to be expanded.

I have a couple Dockyard raid and Shipyard assault missions that I could fix up.

[Dizzy]

I have a couple Dockyard raid and Shipyard assault missions that I could fix up.

We really really need some of those. I miss those. Shoot, we need MANY more friendly space missions that are fun and cash cows. There are 2 kinds of missions... Those that you can do quickly to boost DV's and those that are elective missions that give you a lot of cash that take longer. We currently only have the former unfortunately.

[Dizzy]

I remember the days where we used to actually fight for a hex... Where we had to have teams of PvP players sitting rock while while letting our flippers run below. The hex ban rule really comes into play here... but u have to have smaller maps and higher DV's for this to really work well. I think 20-30 DV hexes and a map about a 1/3 the size of last server might work well...

We only fought over 10% of the map last server, maybe a 20x20 area.   How much smaller do you really want this to be?  People play this game for more than just PvP and you can't leave them out.

I dont intend to. But I said a third smaller. Not 90% smaller.

[el-Karnak]

I have a couple Dockyard raid and Shipyard assault missions that I could fix up.

We really really need some of those. I miss those. Shoot, we need MANY more friendly space missions that are fun and cash cows. There are 2 kinds of missions... Those that you can do quickly to boost DV's and those that are elective missions that give you a lot of cash that take longer. We currently only have the former unfortunately.

The best EEK Cash Cow mission is the Homeworld Defence mission. You can play it on your homeworld and the novice player could rack up 1000pp in about 5 minutes:

Mission Name
Homeworld Defence

Political/Terrain/Range/Priority
 Home/Homeworld/0/1

Allied AI
 BC, CA,DW-CL, (Homeworld,4xFRDs);

Enemy AI
DD-BC, DD-CL
 1xDN,2xCA-BC,2xDW-CL, FF-DD

AI Stripping?
 Yes

PP Award
 1000

Comments
Allied AI reinforcements arrive every 10 minutes.

source: http://www.eek-scripts.com/Missions.htm

I wrote this mission for the sole purpose of PP farming so that players could get into big ships ASAP for PvP play. We used a similar mission system in the old SFC3 DomWars server to promote PvP play.

If you do the math of getting 1000pp for 5 minutes work you could have 24K pp in 2 hours, 48K in 4hours, 96K in 8 hours. One day of nuttering could get you a BB on A0TK3 with absolutely no chance of enemy player interference unless some enemy Deep Striker thinks hitting the homeworld would be fun. . . .
 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

There would be no hex flipping on such a server.  All VCs would based on PvP.  I'd even suggest removing mandatories in enemy and neutral space so that you could literally encounter and/or hunt down someone anywhere.  I realize you enjoy the aspect of the game that I despise, but running AI missions bites in my opinion and it is certainly not the intent of the D2 as one could do the same as easily off-line.

You want all hex flipping VCs, might as well fly IP games for a ladder league and just keep score.  The D-2 is all about hex-flipping, its the basis of the game, and each type of ship has a role in it.  You want something else you probably should find a different engine for it.  Ladder leagues sound like what your after, all PvP, all fair fights.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I don't expect you to be objective about this.  If you "enjoy" something that any sane person would consider mind-numbingly boring, I'd suggest that this is your own problem and not the game's.

Considering I'm not the one complaining about it I don't think I have the problem.  I accept the game for what it is, if I didn't I'd play in ladder leagues which are made for what you seem to desire.

And your strategic assessment of how you win a server or the roles one might engage in on a server are exceedingly constrained by what the game is now, not what it could be under another rule set or frankly another attitude.  That you would attempt to persuade me based on your insights into the obvious within the current D2 paradigm is about as effective as suggesting moderation to an alcoholic.

If you find constraints that is your attitude I think more than anything.  If you don't want to jump in a hex flipper when that is needed, or you won't jump in a PvP ship when that is needed you can't blame someone else.  If you can't find a role for what you personally want to do, or be creative enough to make one, that is noone's fault but your own.  When I get in a PvP mood, I've never found myself in a position I can't contribute, EVER.  The only exception I could envision would be if the enemy were all in ships that I could not feasably match up with close enough to have any real chance of beating.  Maybe I could contribute more by hex flipping, but even if I'm not in that mood I can find a role for myself not involving hex flipping and for the benefit of my team. Usually however, you need the right mix, too many hexflippers and the enemy will run you off the important line and take their objectives, too many in heavy metal and you will find your supply lines cut and/or advance slow.  It takes the right mix, and people who recognize it and are willing to adjust to what is needed.

[Capt Jeff]

Disengagement rule= less PvP.

Now, before everyone blows up, I understand that it is a necessary evil to stop uncontrolled flipping by cheese.

I'd just like to see it changed a bit.  Say you are defending a allied hex and are drafted by a invading enemy.

1.  If enemy ship outclasses you may disengage without penalty if you:
     a. get a wing and go back in.
     b. buy a comparible ship to that of your last opponent and go back in.

2.  If enemy ship outclasses you and you are destroyed you:
     a. can come back in if you buy a comparible ship
     b. have to wait out 1/2 the normal disengagement time


Obviously, if you are attacking enemy space, and you come unprepaired and get killed/chased out, you SHOULD be screwed for trying such a rediculous thing

Something like this would make defending territory a little easier when outnumbered, and make getting back into PvP a little quicker, which can only lead to MORE PvP.

Maybe even eliminate kill points for defenders that die trying to save there hex if the opponent outclasses them.  A DNH should not earn points against a CAR+ when that CAR+ is valiantly trying to defend it's space.
It also could make for more fun to watch the CAR attempt to take them on, rather then them just run because they don't want to lose a point for that CAR.

[Hexx]

The problem with that is that it would require a redraft, on even a semi contested hex you could have, what 6-8 players
jumping in and out- alot of people that have to put everything on hold while you get set up to refight.

I'm still thinking that a permanent ban (until it falls) on attacking planet hexes if you're defeated might be interesting to try.
Maybe if you're defending it as well- Actually have both sides sort of wear themselves down fighting over a strategically important planet

[Wraith 413]

  My 2 cents for what's worth. Most people will not fly PvP in an unwinnable battle. (Excluding myself at times, much to DH's protestations/high blood pressure/binge drinking ,otherwise) 
  If there was a way to have comparable ships for each opposing player, that would be great.  I don't know how you could do that for the casual players and be fair to the "nutters" who spend many hours online.  Perhaps giving PP equally to all the players engaged in a battle with the DV going to the victor/s. Again, I don't know how/if that could be coded into the game currently.

 I'm all for more PvP in the D2, but listening to Chuut, Soreyes and others joke about evading the opposition while flipping hexes is fun also. The "cat and mouse" strategy can be just as thrilling and personally rewarding as PvP for some people.

 Bottom line is that as the game is played now, seems to offer the most to all who play, not just PvP'ers or hex flippers, nor nutters or casual players.

                                                                                 9th_Wraith 413

[Lepton]

I also think that servers from now on should start players with obscenely high starting PPs, like 100,000 or a million.  That would obliterate any distinction between nutters and the casual players in terms of PP. It would make mission PP payoffs meaningless and it would probably also make losing a ship relatively meaningless in terms of replacing it.  It would basically make PP meaningless in terms of its scarcity which I think is a good thing.

[FPF-DieHard]

I also think that servers from now on should start players with obscenely high starting PPs, like 100,000 or a million.  That would obliterate any distinction between nutters and the casual players in terms of PP. It would make mission PP payoffs meaningless and it would probably also make losing a ship relatively meaningless in terms of replacing it.  It would basically make PP meaningless in terms of its scarcity which I think is a good thing.

I think starting people in CAs with reasonably priced ships (8k Replacement cruisers, 20K BCHs, 40K DNs), like I did on AOTK3, is fine.  You have to give SOME incentive to earn points to get people to play.  It doesn't take that long to bank 20K for a capital ship, especially with a 2263 start when it's 10 game years before any of the big crap is worth flying anyway 

Loosing a ship needs to sting a little, it's like playing poker.  When you play poker for money, even low buy-ins, people play smarter than if the chips are free.  The thrill of victory is also sweeter when the cost of defeat is higher.

[Lepton]

I also think that servers from now on should start players with obscenely high starting PPs, like 100,000 or a million.  That would obliterate any distinction between nutters and the casual players in terms of PP. It would make mission PP payoffs meaningless and it would probably also make losing a ship relatively meaningless in terms of replacing it.  It would basically make PP meaningless in terms of its scarcity which I think is a good thing.

I think starting people in CAs with reasonably priced ships (8k Replacement cruisers, 20K BCHs, 40K DNs), like I did on AOTK3, is fine.  You have to give SOME incentive to earn points to get people to play.  It doesn't take that long to bank 20K for a capital ship, especially with a 2263 start when it's 10 game years before any of the big crap is worth flying anyway 

Loosing a ship needs to sting a little, it's like playing poker.  When you play poker for money, even low buy-ins, people play smarter than if the chips are free.  The thrill of victory is also sweeter when the cost of defeat is higher.

Says a nutter.  I don't want to run a bagillion AI missions to participate in large ship actions.  How much pp did you have in three separate accounts with enough to afford a cap ship in each??  It's always the have and the have-nots where the dynaverse is concerned.  Everything I have ever suggested has been to try to level the playing field.   Balancing server numbers, line ship rules, PvP rules.  No doubt you'd like to keep the present system in place as you are one of its largest benefiters.

The sting of losing a ship is now put into effect with PvP VC points that now exist in all servers in recent memory.  There's no particular reason why someone, who wants to come onto the server, buy a DN and fly it, shouldn't be able to except for the existing meritocracy that has been in place since the beginning of the D2.  If you are not willing to slog through more AI missions than anyone should be willing to, you don't get to play with the big boys.  That's never been a welcoming aspect of the game and I've never considered it very equitable. 

It's like everything else around here.  "We need to give people an incentive to play."  I am sorry, but if anyone needs an incentive to play, then I wonder why he or she plays at all.  I don't need to be induced to play the game.  I think there are some rather perverse incentives in the D2 that should be excised altogether.  I have tried to enumerate them in my past few posts here and in any other innumerable threads, but people refuse to see as their heads are stuck in what they have always done and have always known in the D2.

[FPF-DieHard]

The "have-nots" need to fly more, then they will "have."

I mean this in both PP and player skill.   20lk PP is NOT a lot for a 4 week server, especially when at weeke 2 I started people with 5k.  CWLs are more than capable of hanging as the "line" ship in a 3-ship fleet and those are dirt cheap.

Did anyone want to fly a BCH/DN that DIDN't get on chance on the last server?

[Lepton]

I don't expect you to be objective about this.  If you "enjoy" something that any sane person would consider mind-numbingly boring, I'd suggest that this is your own problem and not the game's.

Blowing up AI is still fun, you have to admit it.   It would have to be otherwise the "PvP" pilots who spend 99% of the time fighting AI wouldn't do it.

With that said, perhaps now that ED has a Stable, nearly Bug-Free set of missions, it might be time to add some variety to make things a bit more interesting for that 99% of the server.  The current set of Base assaults definately fill that role, perhaps this needs to be expanded.

Actually, it isn't fun.  It's mildly assuming and diverting but it gets tiresome very quickly for me.  I really don't understand how people put up with it or why I do to the extent that I do.

I am also gravely fearful of more varied AI missions.  If people want those more RPG style missions that Dave was developing I suppose there is no stopping it, but the further we get away from human vs human combat on these servers, the more I get less and less interested.