Topic: For my next set of servers . . .

[Hexx]

I'd like to see a DV shift by PVP thing done, but the last I remember hearing about it was when Tracy was around, and that it required SQL.

So yes, if we ever get a working SQL serverkit going, I'd be more than happy to torture someone into making missions that work like that, but until then I can't see any
realistic way of making it work.

And it doesn't really bother me that the kitties got their VP through uncontested missions-  the coalition could have done the same thing.
(Might bother Kruegy though, dunno) I simply look at it and say- well on a PVP server you're going to have ship/pilot and skill imbalances as well.
All of which will have to be overcome.

Honestly- and I said this the other day somewhere so I hate myself even more for saying it 2x, I think Dizzy and DH have developed the best VP system that we can realisitically expect right now.
Doesn't mean I don't think it can be tinkered with though. 

When did we change smilies btw?

Did I miss something?

[NuclearWessels]

Bonk did have an SQL-based setup for extra DV shifts in PvP, but there was a bug that sometimes resulted in incorrect shifts.  It got temporarily shelved, and that of course became indefinite when Bonk left.  (I'm not sure whether he left the code for the PvP shifts around or not.)

dave

[Hexx]

So how hard would it be for someone (lets say some kinda genius) who has no more computer knowledge than turning it on/off to learn everything he'd need to know about SQL?
Like would it take more than a week?

[Braxton_RIP]

We talking about a genius that is just going to have a database on his computer or a genius that is going to have a database on his computer and know how to interact with it on a command line basis?

[Hexx]

We talking about a genius that is just going to have a database on his computer or a genius that is going to have a database on his computer and know how to interact with it on a command line basis?

So we're talking like 2 weeks then..

Maybe Wikipedia ccan tell me all I need to know...

[marstone]

anyone have a good primer on how to set up a server for us newbes??  I use to be a computer programmer in the good old days.

[Dfly]

By the by, doesn't it also bother anyone that a vast majority, like 95%, of the missions run on those planet hexes that got the Kitties all those VC points were basically uncontested missions?  I am not saying that they weren't hard missions per se, but uncontested and perversely uncontested in that the opposing force was vastly more likely to try to avoid PvP as DV shifts can be accomplished a good deal faster "vs AI".

I do like your idea of a more PvP server Lepton as I agree PvP is why I play as well  .  And ya, 95% of all missions are vs AI.  Considering there are neutral zones whereas you only get AI(adjustable by removing all neutral, but no longer realistic) and the fact that there are not enough pilots on at a time to make it doable make it very hard.
As per : go do something else if not enough people on, or just dont bother to fly if only vs ai, many people get only a few hours a day or a week to fly at all, and would rather fly vs AI than not bother to fly at all because if they did not bother to fly, why sign up?

One note on the quote.  Kitties took most of(5 of 7 i think) the planets with uncontested missions as the coalition were not there yet.  We could not just sit there for a few days waiting for coalition pilots to make lines to them so we took them and continued on, since they were the basis of the campaign.

[Lepton]

By the by, doesn't it also bother anyone that a vast majority, like 95%, of the missions run on those planet hexes that got the Kitties all those VC points were basically uncontested missions?  I am not saying that they weren't hard missions per se, but uncontested and perversely uncontested in that the opposing force was vastly more likely to try to avoid PvP as DV shifts can be accomplished a good deal faster "vs AI".

I do like your idea of a more PvP server Lepton as I agree PvP is why I play as well  .  And ya, 95% of all missions are vs AI.  Considering there are neutral zones whereas you only get AI(adjustable by removing all neutral, but no longer realistic) and the fact that there are not enough pilots on at a time to make it doable make it very hard.
As per : go do something else if not enough people on, or just dont bother to fly if only vs ai, many people get only a few hours a day or a week to fly at all, and would rather fly vs AI than not bother to fly at all because if they did not bother to fly, why sign up?

One note on the quote.  Kitties took most of(5 of 7 i think) the planets with uncontested missions as the coalition were not there yet.  We could not just sit there for a few days waiting for coalition pilots to make lines to them so we took them and continued on, since they were the basis of the campaign.

I didn't mean uncontested in the sense of player numbers.  I meant uncontested as in even if opposition was present it was more than likely that missions were "vs AI" because it's more efficient to avoid PvP in terms of hex flipping.

As per people's time to play, I am not sure why they would elect to use that small amount of time pummeling a senseless enemy.  Why I do?  I haven't the slightest.  I have a relatively unlimited time to play if I choose to.  I have very little taxing on me really, but even if I go and find a game server empty or the odds are stacked, I just log off.  No sense in doing something that is not worth doing.

I really am not trying to make things harder on people.  I am just convinced that they would have more fun and find it more rewarding to actually play against other people.

[Dfly]

one thing does ring very true there Lepton.  It is much more efficient to hex flip than to do PvP and therein lies some of the problems.  I realize that a lot love the hex flipping but PvP I think should count more towards flipping the hex than it currently does.  Unfortunately I dont know that we have the knowledge yet as to how to adjust that portion of it.

[Tomislav]

For 'encouraging' PVP, how about a MUCH smaller map, with very high DV hexes to slow down the AI grind?

[el-Karnak]

Same ole issues still need to be fixed in D2:

1)  PvP vs hex flipping.

Well, if we ever get SQL working then we can start giving 10 DV shifts to the winner of a PvP and throwaway the disengagement rules.

Making the Player vs AI missions harder on the dyna was done with EEK missions. In general, players can handle losing to another player but very few can ever accept losing to the AI, so Player vs AI missions have to be winnable for all but the novice players. Ergo, mission difficulty for hard missions will always get toned down. There are about 4 or 5 difficult missions in the EEK mission pack that were never used on dyna campaign for this reason. Plus, in late era, no one ever seemed to like the drone races in any mission having their AI shooting out fast drones. 

2) Encouraging PvP play.

2 factors are at play here:

First, the good PvP ships are relatively expensive for the casual player which is what most of the existing player base is, so it would be a good idea to start cutting the ships costs to 50% of AOTK3 levels.  In addition, mission payouts need to be increased. Also, having a homeworld mission where a novice player can rack up 1000pp in about 8 to 10 minutes like the EEK homeworld mission will allow productive PP farming to get players the PPs they need to get a good PvP ship.

Second, PVP kills are worth VCs so the people with not much PvP experience or are rusty at it are going to be under pressure to not take on too many PvP matches where the odds are not reasonably even.

[FPF-DieHard]

D2 is a game about Hex-flipping.   That's pretty much it.   You want a "real" strategic game (I'm not syaing there isn't strategy in D2) you need to Cyberboard with turn-based strategic movemnt where the battles are fought on GSA or IP games.   We did this back in the day, it was a lot of fun but like the PBR league, it was also a crapload of work.

D2 is easy, it's a game for the micro-wave society.   You install the mod, sign in, have fun, it runs 24/7 so you can play when it suites you.   The "real" strategic games are a pain in the ass.   You have to arrange your fleets, schedule around 5 other people, arrange practice, and a whole bunch of stuff that is a lot more work and hassle than D2.

Unless people purposely avoid you, anyone can get PvP anytime they want in D2.  Check the news, see where they are hitting, move to that hex and wait.  Avoiding PvP is often the best strategy when you are out numbered and will just be chased off, but this is never going to change.  Some people also just aren't interested in PvP and that is 100% okay.   If it's not your thing it doesn't make you less of a player.

AOTK3 was the first server in a long time where a significant amount of the VC could potentially have come from PvP.  Two dead DNs = a center planet, how many DNs died this server?   I lost count in the high-teens.

As far as the planets not being contested, both sides had equal opportunity to grab the planet in the initial 48 hours.   The first 48 hours of the server had nearly dead even misisons run and the exact number of Hexes flipped.  The kitties chose to go in a straight line for the goodies (actually ignoring our orders ) when the Coalition chose to build a stable supply line with access from 3 directions.  THAT move cost then in the inital land-grab and put them at a huge disadvantage as then now had to face an entrenched enemy. 

This is NOT typical of most servers and will not be in GW redux.  AOTK servers have always been a land grab, those favor the Hex Flippers at least for the first day or two.  GW will be an invasion, the assult on an entreched enemy and will have a different dynamic

[FPF-DieHard]

anyone have a good primer on how to set up a server for us newbes??  I use to be a computer programmer in the good old days.

Documentation?   

[Lepton]

DH,

I am not looking for a real strategy game nor do I think anyone else is.  And it's not a question of PvP being available.  It's a question of PvP having any bearing on what occurs on a server in a substantive way.  Chuut said it best on comms any number of times.  While we're in there for hour or longer PvP missions, the hex could be flipped and done with.  So I say again.  What's the point?

I appreciate the efforts on the server admins to make PvP more influential on server outcomes, but I think to the degree that avoiding opposition is the most effective means of winning the war, it's still not where I'd like to see things.

[FPF-DieHard]

DH,

I am not looking for a real strategy game nor do I think anyone else is.  And it's not a question of PvP being available.  It's a question of PvP having any bearing on what occurs on a server in a substantive way.  Chuut said it best on comms any number of times.  While we're in there for hour or longer PvP missions, the hex could be flipped and done with.  So I say again.  What's the point?

I appreciate the efforts on the server admins to make PvP more influential on server outcomes, but I think to the degree that avoiding opposition is the most effective means of winning the war, it's still not where I'd like to see things.

I agree that D2 is a stupid game, it really is but it's still fun.   You really just gotta ignore the stupid stuff and go with the flow.  Thought there is strategy in D2, it is NOT a strategic game.   D2 is what it is, tryhing to change it is like shoving a square peg in a Round hole which can be done with a running start and a lot of lube . . .

I like the idea of PvP having a MUCH greater affect on the DV of a Hex, perhaps we can explore this with the scripters and the admins.   We are going to start working on SQL again not that we've got some other programmers available nd we've found a way to may Flatfile 100% stable.   Perhaps this can be possible?

PS -  You DO NOT suck in PvP

[Dizzy]

Ya, Lepton, you're a good reliable wing.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'd like to see smaller maps used in general and nearly ridiculously high DV values to negate hex flipping activities.  I left this past server because I could not stand any more missions vs the AI.  And when I hear people on comms running 2 minutes missions in DFs just to get a DV shift, I wonder what the hell any of us are doing and why the hell I am here at all.  Can we please try to find a way to minimize "vs AI" missions altogether?  I realize some people enjoy hex-flipping.  They are abhorrent and should be subjected to "extreme interrogation techniques" until they confess to their crimes.

I'd like to request larger maps with smaller defense values so that we can bring Lepton the proper reward for this post.   

I wonder if he realizes that ridulcously high DVs will take forever to turn without hex-flippers.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

DH,

I am not looking for a real strategy game nor do I think anyone else is.  And it's not a question of PvP being available.  It's a question of PvP having any bearing on what occurs on a server in a substantive way.  Chuut said it best on comms any number of times.  While we're in there for hour or longer PvP missions, the hex could be flipped and done with.  So I say again.  What's the point?

I appreciate the efforts on the server admins to make PvP more influential on server outcomes, but I think to the degree that avoiding opposition is the most effective means of winning the war, it's still not where I'd like to see things.

In order to win on the D2, given equal player numbers you need both hex-flipping nd PvP if your enemy is willing to engge you.  If the enemy is, then you need to chase them off to prevent your flippers from beinbg run off.  There is usually plenty of things non-flippers can be doing, they just have to realize they have a certain role to perform, just as flippers have a role to perform.  Do Z-DF pilots bitch alot if they lose to a BCH or DN in battle?  If not, then why should a BCH or DN pilot bitch if they get out hex-flipped?  Know what your objective is at any given time and fly appropriately at that time.  Most folkes can find a use for their ships that is productive and/or fun at all times, if you can't it is not the games problem, but your own.

[FPF-Paladin]

Unless people purposely avoid you, anyone can get PvP anytime they want in D2.  Check the news, see where they are hitting, move to that hex and wait.  Avoiding PvP is often the best strategy when you are out numbered and will just be chased off, but this is never going to change.  Some people also just aren't interested in PvP and that is 100% okay.   If it's not your thing it doesn't make you less of a player.

AOTK3 was the first server in a long time where a significant amount of the VC could potentially have come from PvP.  Two dead DNs = a center planet, how many DNs died this server?   I lost count in the high-teens.

I think a lot of pilots would agree this was a good sign, the engagements turning into real fights more than a few broadsides and sailing off into the sun (err I mean the invisible Red Line of Safeness).

I also think finding a niche for what you like to do on a server and applying it to the tasks at hand is important, be it hex flipping, PvP or something in between.

#1 rule: Have fun playing.

[IAF Lyrkiller]

Unless people purposely avoid you, anyone can get PvP anytime they want in D2.  Check the news, see where they are hitting, move to that hex and wait.  Avoiding PvP is often the best strategy when you are out numbered and will just be chased off, but this is never going to change.  Some people also just aren't interested in PvP and that is 100% okay.   If it's not your thing it doesn't make you less of a player.

AOTK3 was the first server in a long time where a significant amount of the VC could potentially have come from PvP.  Two dead DNs = a center planet, how many DNs died this server?   I lost count in the high-teens.

I think a lot of pilots would agree this was a good sign, the engagements turning into real fights more than a few broadsides and sailing off into the sun (err I mean the invisible Red Line of Safeness).

I also think finding a niche for what you like to do on a server and applying it to the tasks at hand is important, be it hex flipping, PvP or something in between.

#1 rule: Have fun playing.

Paladin, I agree w/ you. I always try to find something to do when hex-flipping. And I do try to awoid PvP if possible.