Topic: Are we looking the right way for alien intelligence?

[Centurus]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269934,00.html?sPage=fnc.science/space

Scientists Try to Prepare for Extraterrestrial Contact

Friday, May 04, 2007

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 AP

The Parkes radio telescope in New South Wales, Australia, part of the SETI project.

As scientists involved in the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence project plan for their first contact with other worlds, who better to consult than anthropologists, who specialize in encounters with exotic cultures?

Over the past several years the SETI Institute has repeatedly brought together anthropologists and scholars from other disciplines in an attempt to bridge the gap between humans and extraterrestrials.

The task of these savants, who met most recently in San Jose, Calif., is twofold: to try to uncover any universals of culture, and then apply these insights to constructing messages that might be intelligible to independently evolved civilizations.

• Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Space Center.

"Although it is impossible to predict the nature of extraterrestrial intelligence," admitted NASA's chief historian, Steven Dick, "the one certainty is that, if it exists, it will have undergone cultural evolution."

For SETI researchers, the dizzying variety of societies that might evolve on other worlds becomes manageable for one simple reason: If extraterrestrials can build a radio transmitter or high-powered laser beacon, we and they already have something vital in common.

(Story continues below)

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There may be dolphin-like forms of intelligence in the oceans of other planets, but unless they can erect transmitters to send signals across interstellar space, we may never know of their existence.

To build the technology that makes such contact possible, it has often been argued, extraterrestrials would certainly need to know some of the same mathematics that we do. Since mathematics is a direct reflection of the structure of the universe, it would necessarily be known by scientists on other worlds.

In other words, they might not understand English or Chinese or Swahili, but they'd certainly be familiar with algebra and geometry.

Or would they?

Several participants of the San Jose meeting advised against assuming that human ways of understanding the universe will be mirrored on other planets.

"Reliance on mathematics as a major means of communication with extraterrestrial intelligence may be misplaced," cautioned historian Shirley Woolf.

Woolf emphasized a view espoused by some prominent cognitive scientists, that "mathematics is an artifact derived from the specific structure of human embodiment."

What to count on

The simplest example might be the link between the way humans count and the number of digits we use for counting. It may not be a coincidence that humans have 10 fingers and that we're also very comfortable using a base-10 number system, with 10 different digits that can be added, subtracted, and otherwise manipulated.

For extraterrestrials with arms or tentacles ending in a different number of digits, other number systems may seem equally natural.

If only the numbering system varied from civilization to civilization, mathematics might still serve as a cosmic Rosetta Stone.

After all, we are quite capable of converting the numbers of everyday life into binary (base-2) format, and base-10 number systems are by no means universal on Earth. The ancient Sumerians used a base-5 system; many other cultures, including our own, have used base-12.

But what if the differences run even deeper, and our mathematics reflects not just our hands, but more fundamental features about the way we relate to the world?

As creatures who rely heavily on our senses of vision and hearing, we are able to locate objects precisely in three-dimensional space.

Moreover, our senses let us clearly demarcate objects in time. To modern civilization, either something is taking place (the present), it's already over and done with (the past), or it has not yet happened (the future).

But what if we relied on sensing the world primarily through our sense of smell, with objects leaving traces of their presence in lingering scents even long after they are gone? Might our sense of past, present, and future blur somewhat, with one moment gently merging into another?

What if we no longer sensed the presence of an object in stark categories of "here" or "not here," but in terms of "probably here" or "probably gone"?

Might our mathematics reflect our everyday encounters with the world, so we no longer bluntly stated "1 + 1 = 2," but felt a more intuitively reasonable mathematics that might be founded on the observation that "roughly 1 + roughly 1 = roughly 2"?

Might the notions of precision and fuzziness vary from civilization to civilization, making it a bit harder to understand creatures who experience the world differently than we do?

Understanding ourselves

"The Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence is, on one hand, a straightforward experimental endeavor — astronomers searching our galaxy for signals of artificial origin," said anthropologist Kathryn Denning. "However, in creating the possibility of contact with alien beings, SETI has also created a space for abundant speculation about the nature of societies on other worlds."

The hope of SETI is that some day we will have incontestable evidence that extraterrestrial civilizations exist.

In the meantime, let's remember the impact that the search can have on our world, right now, whether or not we ever detect a signal from another star.

"A real encounter between human beings and alien intelligence would have substantial global impact," Denning reminds us. "However, even considering such possibilities in strictly hypothetical terms may affect the way we see ourselves and our future on Earth."

Copyright © 2007 Imaginova Corp. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[Panzergranate]

The thing is radio was discovered by accident, it was a magic trick called "The Sparking Rings".

It is still a mystery as to how radio works, and I should know as a radio Ham and electronics design engineer.

OK if you excite a piece of wire or metal, that cannot complete a circuit, with an alternating current so that its polarity changes, it generates a polarised field. From that polarised field radio waves appear.

To receive radio waves passing around metal will generate a polarised field in it, which in turn causes the polarity to alternate creating a current, which is fed into the radio receiver circuitry.

Why this effect happens is like magnetism, a source of mystery and debate.

OK, my arguement is that aliens could have developed warp drive or some other FTL drive system but never developed radio.

They might wonder how we explore our solar system and space with unmanned probes, whereas they need crewed vessels.

We might be the only race in the universe with radio.

[Don Karnage]

The thing is radio was discovered by accident, it was a magic trick called "The Sparking Rings".

It is still a mystery as to how radio works, and I should know as a radio Ham and electronics design engineer.

OK if you excite a piece of wire or metal, that cannot complete a circuit, with an alternating current so that its polarity changes, it generates a polarised field. From that polarised field radio waves appear.

To receive radio waves passing around metal will generate a polarised field in it, which in turn causes the polarity to alternate creating a current, which is fed into the radio receiver circuitry.

Why this effect happens is like magnetism, a source of mystery and debate.

OK, my arguement is that aliens could have developed warp drive or some other FTL drive system but never developed radio.

They might wonder how we explore our solar system and space with unmanned probes, whereas they need crewed vessels.

We might be the only race in the universe with radio.

i always consider that am/fm radio was not a good way to searches for aliens, if you imagine each continent as a planet in space, earth use am/fm radio and Europe use like light signal, with an antenna you will never heard anything because the use something too advance for us, doest it mean there no one there?

IF the do use am/fm radio, they might be too far to received there signal yet or they have not yet discover it.

so we have no idea if they will understand or received signal from earth and we might not for a long time received signal from aliens who use something esle that am/fm radio

[marstone]

The thing is radio was discovered by accident, it was a magic trick called "The Sparking Rings".

It is still a mystery as to how radio works, and I should know as a radio Ham and electronics design engineer.

OK if you excite a piece of wire or metal, that cannot complete a circuit, with an alternating current so that its polarity changes, it generates a polarised field. From that polarised field radio waves appear.

To receive radio waves passing around metal will generate a polarised field in it, which in turn causes the polarity to alternate creating a current, which is fed into the radio receiver circuitry.

Why this effect happens is like magnetism, a source of mystery and debate.

OK, my arguement is that aliens could have developed warp drive or some other FTL drive system but never developed radio.

They might wonder how we explore our solar system and space with unmanned probes, whereas they need crewed vessels.

We might be the only race in the universe with radio.

i always consider that am/fm radio was not a good way to searches for aliens, if you imagine each continent as a planet in space, earth use am/fm radio and Europe use like light signal, with an antenna you will never heard anything because the use something too advance for us, doest it mean there no one there?

IF the do use am/fm radio, they might be too far to received there signal yet or they have not yet discover it.

so we have no idea if they will understand or received signal from earth and we might not for a long time received signal from aliens who use something esle that am/fm radio

true, using radio signals is not the perfect way to look for aliens, but the logic is this.  What ever form of communications they are using that are too advanced for us to find, they probably went through a time when radio waves were the main way to communicate, it is simple tech.  So we are looking for old transmitions, not current ones.  (and seeing that the radio waves would have taken multiple hundreds of years to get here, old signals are OK to look for.  It might be the wrong path, but we have no real choice at the moment.  What else could we look for. (as an aside, our telescopes that we look into the far reaches of space are basicly radio telescopes, so it is all we can really look for also).

Marstone
/|\
(SETI computer time donor for along time)

[Panzergranate]

There might be another method of transmitting signals yet to be discovered by the human race.

I've tried to explain how single or double sideband works to non-radio folks and when it reaches the part of removing the carrier wave before transmission, that's when the bafflement sets in. How can one send radio without a carrier wave??!!

The carrier wave is only needed to transvert the human voice to radio frequencies and then it can be thrown away. The final transmission signal is the human voice at radio frequencies. Without the carrier wave, the signal travels a lot better and is readable over longer distances. To receive just inject a carrier wave at the receiving end (Beat Frequency Oscillator).

I presume that SETI scans for SSB and DSB carrierless signals as well. For long distance deep space communications in the future this would be the only method that would work after AM and FM signal methods had exceeded their maximum range.

 

[Sirgod]

Ansible (sp) communications comes to mind.

Stephen

[Fedman NCC-3758]

                               


I'm sure someone will give a shout when we catch ET phoning home?

Appreciated.   

                               

[Nemesis]

Until more the ability to monitor more advanced systems become available SETI has to monitor what we know how to do.  Radio may turn out to be the galactic equivalent of smoke signals but at present that is all we "savages" know how to use.  As we learn more SETI will I'm sure monitor more advanced things.

The key with SETI is to detect a signal created by intelligent beings.  That signal need not be a message.  It could be radar signals from traffic control systems or even a series of EMPs from a civilization similar to ours destroying itself.  All it needs to be is a signal that is clearly artificial.  The ideal is a purposeful communication of course, even if from so far away we can't respond.

[Don Karnage]

there is so many possibility that its hard to know.

1: if the can use am/fm radio, have they discover it yet?

2: if yes the signal may be too far for us to hear yet.

3: if no, maybe they have something else or they have not yet discover it.

4: maybe the planet or and the sun prevent the use of am/fm signal?

5: maybe they also looking for signal like am/fm but there just too far from us to received our signal and there signal.

6: maybe the planet prevent signal from be send into space and what ever the use can't be found since we don't know about it.

the other way to signal that we are here is a giant neon sign in space that will be see by other planet (if the can see it) that there is inteligent life on this panet (well sometime you wonder)

[marstone]

I presume that SETI scans for SSB and DSB carrierless signals as well. For long distance deep space communications in the future this would be the only method that would work after AM and FM signal methods had exceeded their maximum range.

 

From my understanding is that they are looking at as wide a field as possible in radio waves, not just the limited am/fm area. 

And remember, when looking for ET with a radio telescope, you have to look for radio waves.

[Nemesis]

And remember, when looking for ET with a radio telescope, you have to look for radio waves.

And since they can't afford to build one they scan whatever the radio telescope happens to be pointing at rather than just "interesting" stars.

[Just plain old Punisher]

And we've forgetting that like all EM radiation, radio waves travel at the speed of light. So it's going to take them an awful long time to get here.

Personally, we should just scatter AOL cd's all across the universe and see if there are any new subscribers from Alpha Centuri.

[Death_Merchant]

Personally, we should just scatter AOL cd's all across the universe and see if there are any new subscribers from Alpha Centuri.

No, that wouldn't work.

The idea is to find INTELLIGENT life......

Neee sorb glot!
("You've got mail" in Centuri)

[Just plain old Punisher]

Personally, we should just scatter AOL cd's all across the universe and see if there are any new subscribers from Alpha Centuri.

No, that wouldn't work.

The idea is to find INTELLIGENT life......

Neee sorb glot!
("You've got mail" in Centuri)

Intelligent is open to debate.

I mean, hell, currently we have rednecks and cows getting abducted left and right -- that should clue you right in that we aren't exactly dealing with the Mr. Spocks of the galaxy.

[Panzergranate]

And they've amnaged to infiltrate a Pakled agent into the Whitehouse!!

The whole universe could be made up of races similar to the Pakleds.

I've always wonder how come, when there are so many intelligent people on this planet, only the seemingly retarded morons seem to be abducted. I've heard a theory that the ones that are returned to tell about it are the the throw backs!! The aliens keep the smart ones!!

[Nemesis]

And they've amnaged to infiltrate a Pakled agent into the Whitehouse!!

The whole universe could be made up of races similar to the Pakleds.

Dons moderator hat
This post is not suitable for this forum.  Please keep away from politics here.  There is a forum (Hot and Spicy) for political discussion please keep it there.

Your cooperation is appreciated.
Removes hat

[Nemesis]

The whole universe could be made up of races similar to the Pakleds.

It is possible that most intelligent species "max out" at a lower level of intelligence or creativity than the human norm.  It is even possible that most such species don't vary as much as humans and therefore don't have the Einsteins or Hawkings to drive them forward technologically.   

More likely though is that most species have a biological limitation that prevents them from developing advanced technology.  The dolphin has no manipulating organs.   Octopi have too short a lifespan and I believe are not social enough to pass gained knowledge to future generations.  Other species are too limited by their eating habits to "conquer the world", some only eat one food that is only available in a narrow region and couldn't expand enough to have an industrial civilization. 

If theories are correct about modern humans having to compete with other related species there could have been an "intelligence" war whereby the more intelligent and creative species was able to out compete the less intelligent rivals.  This could have forced the evolution of ever higher IQs in several branches as they warred on other breeds of man for living space.  The species that could come up with better weapons, better planning and better access to food (including storage) would naturally expand at the expense of the less able.  If a developing intelligent species only rarely spreads widely while fracturing into numerous sub species then only rarely would there be an "IQ War".    That would of course reduce the number of technological species out there, if this speculation is true.

There are also many turning points in technology and knowledge where things can dead end.  Just a few examples are listed below.

Consider the printing press for example.  At least one ancient Mediterranean society (I forget which off hand) and the Chinese had it in rudimentary forms but did not develop it further.  It needed to be combined with an alphabet with a small number of characters to be useful. 

The Romans had a sophisticated counting system (Roman Numerals of course) but it didn't exactly help in developing higher math, that had to wait for the Arabic Numbers and the addition of the concept of zero as a number.

Consider the genius who had the idea of taking the best seeds and planting them in hopes that the next generation would be better and was able and willing to carry on for long enough to make progress while convincing his people to do the same.  The ancestral forms of corn, rice, wheat etc were not nearly as useful as the modern forms.

The brilliance and courage of taming that great destroyer - fire.  To take and tame a deadly menace and use it against other creatures took great daring and creativity. 

[Panzergranate]

If an inteeligence is insect based, like ants for instance, the communication methods might be based on language or vistaul body language.

Ants, for instance use chemical signals for distance local communications, the equivalen of our shouting, and a complex tactile system based around antenna bashing each other.

Ant anteena have 14 segements and touching various segments rapidly in various combinations, rather like using Helen Keller hand/finger communicating language system for the deaf and blind.

Now a race with these systems would have devised a totally bizare methed of transmissions of information.

If ants had radio then perhap they would have a tranmitter consol with a pair of artifictial antennae, which would be our equivalent of a keyboard, for transmission and for receiving some means of stimulating the operator's antennae, our equivalent of headphones. The system would be the equivalent to our Radio teletype (RTTY).

How the information inputted is encrypted and de-encrypted would be the bit we'd have to figure out. Obviously it would use mathematics but their mathematics.

We assume that all intelligent life out there with radio has or had speech and and a visual perception of their part of the universe similar to ours. We could be the only humanoid life in the universe.

[Nemesis]

We assume that all intelligent life out there with radio has or had speech and and a visual perception of their part of the universe similar to ours. We could be the only humanoid life in the universe.

For purposes of detecting an artificial signal it wouldn't matter if the originators were totally incomprehensible.  The recurring complex patterns would identify the signal as artificial and therefore a SETI success.  Translating to a meaningful message would be a whole different issue.

Consider the Rosetta stone.  Without it whole written languages would be dead as there was no point of contact between them and us.  The Rosetta stone with its inscription translated into multiple languages was the wedge that allowed translation.  An alien intelligence might not have enough in common to allow communication beyond the "I'm here stage" that the signals existence provides.