Topic: New shiplist...

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Well, I'm stuck between SFC1 and SFC2. I like how in SFC2 they have larger fleet missions instead of just the boring 1-on-1. But I just don't like how there are so many drone ships, escort ships, and freighters. Maybe I'm just being picky, but I like it when the standard ships (FF,CL,CA,DN, and all those inbetween) are the main combat adversaries. It just doesn't seem right or realistic facing a whole fleet of freighters and ships bristling with drones and ph-Gs. So enough of my rant
Is there a shiplist out there that would work for SFC2 (either EAW or OP) that is more like the original SFC1? Would just manually deleting the ships I don't want work?

RIS Mace

[Rod ONeal]

Have you tried using the OP+ mod? That might help because it adds so many non-escort ships.

Another option, besides deleting the ships would be to "restrict" them. The column after the bpv in the shiplist is used to list special roles for the ship. The offending ships will have an "E" listed there now. Change it to an "R" and that'll eliminate them from being randomly chosen, but still have them there if they are specifically required by a script. 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Thanks, I'll try those out. Sounds good.

[Panzergranate]

R = Reserve or auxilary ship (Police, tender, border patrol, etc.)

K = Civilian or non-combat science ship (F-FES, F-FEL, F-GSF, etc.).

KM = Millitary scout, cruiser scout, etc.)

D = Drone ship.

C = Command ship.

No designation mean ordinary starship.

These were all stock labels listed in SFB for starship mission types.

I hope that this helps.

The Ship Editor (all versions) progarmmers didn't read all the SFB manuals.

Also wre in crew picking it say "Deck Crews are officers"  this is wrong. Actually Deck Crews refer to flight deck personnel arming, rearming and servicing fighters or shuttles.

In SFB if all the Deck Crews are kaput, when you land fighters after a sortie they cannot be rotated back into combat again.

Large Deck Crews are only carried by carriers.

[Rod ONeal]

R = Reserve or auxilary ship (Police, tender, border patrol, etc.

K = Civilian or non-combat science ship (F-FES, F-FEL, F-GSF, etc.).

KM = Millitary scout, cruiser scout, etc.)

D = Drone ship.

C = Command ship.

No designation mean ordinary starship.

These were all stock labels listed in SFB for starship mission types.

I hope that this helps.

The Ship Editor (all versions) progarmmers didn't read all the SFB manuals.

Also wre in crew picking it say "Deck Crews are officers" this is wrong. Actually Deck Crews refer to flight deck personnel arming, rearming and servicing fighters or shuttles.

In SFB if all the Deck Crews are kaput, when you land fighters after a sortie they cannot be rotated back into combat again.

Large Deck Crews are only carried by carriers.

R=restricted It won't show up in missions unless called for in the script. If you delete it from the shiplist the mission won't be able to run. This is why it's not a good idea to just delete ships from the shiplist. You could say it means reserve or any word you want that begins with "R". To my knowledge the developers never released a glossary. Has nothing to do with police, tender, border patrol, etc...

There's no designation for boarder patrol vessels or tenders in SFC. Except for PF tenders which are classified as carriers.

K= Not used.

KM= Not used.

D= drone

C= command

S= This is for anything that has a scout channel and would be what the FES, FEL would have for a designation.

F= freighter This is typically what auxiliaries get listed under in SFC.

P= police

V= carriers

E= escort As in carrier escort. Not convoy escort or any other kind of escort. These are the vessels that are bothering RIS Mace's gaming that he wants to limit/eliminate.

Deck Crews in SFC give you replacement fighters. It's a 2/1 ratio. That is, you'll get 1 replacement fighter for every 2 deck crews you have.

None of this has anything to do with the shipedit programmers (EagleEye) or whether or not they read any SFB manuals. The game devs (Taldren) wrote the shiplist and programmed it's game interaction. Shipedit is just a convenient editor. There's 189 columns in the shiplist and jillions(sic) of rows. Editing it manually can be a daunting task.

Penzergranate, I've mentioned to you before that you mix multiple Star Trek universes in your posts.  In this case, quoting SFB terms that aren't even in SFC could lead to confusion with a player who's not experienced with modifying his shiplist. Possibly breaking his game.

RIS Mace, Try OP+ 1st. If this doesn't fix your situation try editing your shiplist by Changing the "E" to an "R" in the shiplist. You can use Shipedit or Excel. Excel is better because Shipedit can introduce errors into the shiplist. If you install OP+ the installer will backup all of your files.

[NuclearWessels]

Just a few of the others from the EAW/OP shiplists:

A = mauler
q = small Q ship
Q = large Q ship
T = tournament ship
NT = defsat or listening post (can't remember which OTOH)
M = marine/commando ship

dave

[Panzergranate]

In SFC 1 the designations seem to have an effect on how the AI plays its tactics in combat.

I just looked up the designations in the books, an SFB player's manual or better stiil, if you have any of the Ships of the Star Fleet 2290-2291, it's all explained there.

I notice that in SFC v1.03 the AI is a lot smarter than the do or die AI in v1.00 as hips will pull off for repairs. I've noticed that F ships will back off after a hitmore than warships. Also if you don't designate a D to anyship carrying scatter packs, they won't use them.

R is quite rightly used to keep ships out of missions unless scripted for as R is listed in Star Fleet designations s auxilaries, and they wouldn't be normal fare out on deep space patrols. One hit wonders aren't much of a challenge.

If you wonder how  the drone thing came into SFB, it is all because in the TOS episode "Errand of Mercy" the Enterprise is shown under bombardment from Klingon missiles which middle speed drones in SFC are absolutely spot on even down to the colour and appearnce.   

My biggest gripe with SFC 1 is the fact that there cannot be more than64 FFs, 64 CLs, 64 CAs and 64 DNs in any race ship selection. The pointer only counts form 0 to 64 and jumps back to 1 again!! Is SFC 2 the same??

Don't delete stock ships from the shiplist as the game freaks out!!

SFC 1 has some useful bugs in it too which allow things to sometimes happen that isn't in the manual. I found the trick to allow the computer to paly all sides and allow the actions of each ship in game to be followed.

Some interesting AI strategies occur. For instance a Klingon freighter with an verteran helmsman delberately flew backwards and forwards through an asterooid dust cloud to loose the chasing fighters, with a rookie helmsman it was not so lucky.

Also rookies have a habit of flting into planetsa and asteroids, which explains some antics of opponent ships sometimes.

I believe that the AI operates on a combinations of crew experience weighings  and also shiplist designators. Watch how drone ships maneuver sslightly differently to non-drone ships. There are subtle differences in the AI opertaion.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

That's funny... I didn't know the AI did things like that. Come to think of it, why didn't any game later than SFC 1 have different ranks of officers. I kind of liked how a legendary sci officer gave better shield regen, and it gave a better connection to the ship.

So deleting ships is a no-no... I'll try OP+ sometime soon, maybe overnight if I get a good connection.

[Panzergranate]

Quite a few AIs use crew experience weightings to steer them.

Red Baron is one and that's an old 286 game!!

I used an atribute based AI for an embedded system a few years ago, which is similar but smarter. Attribute based AIs can statistical analisys to learn.

For instance I had a simple robot learn that falling off the edge of the table was bad. It involved a factor called "The Experience File".

The robot would analise its sensor readings and record them as it went along. Flalling off the table was deemed to be a bad experience.

OK the robot falls off the table for the 20th time and the AI thinks, hey, this has opened 20 times and everytime my edge of table sensor goes off just before it happens, therefore the edge of table sensor going off means danger. And from then on, the robot would stop at the edge of the table or whatever evasive maneuver I wrote in as a standard evade option.

There have been a few past games that have some degree of learning or adaptability to the player's style. You've probally spotted these.

It would be nice if the SFC AI adapted and learn to play better.

Haven't you noticed how sometimes the other ships in the squadron or even your own fly into things if they have rookie helmsmen?? Veterans also pull smarter combat maneuvers as well. Keep an eye on their antics in game. Only veteran helmsmen will pull high energy turns! on AI ships!

If you allocate just enough points in multiplayer or serial games against the AI instead of too many or a lot, the enmy will be easier to fight as they won't have the points to have Veteran crews. I spotted this a long time ago after experimenting with it.

 

[NuclearWessels]

That's funny... I didn't know the AI did things like that. Come to think of it, why didn't any game later than SFC 1 have different ranks of officers. I kind of liked how a legendary sci officer gave better shield regen, and it gave a better connection to the ship.

So deleting ships is a no-no... I'll try OP+ sometime soon, maybe overnight if I get a good connection.

I haven't hacked at SFC1 in years, but in EAW/OP deleting ships from the shiplist isn't a problem, there are just a few restrictions:

(1) many of the base/planet assault/defense missions assume the existence of the LP, DEF, FRD, BS, BATS, SB, and planets for each race
(2) the monster missions assume the existence of the stock monsters
(3) the convoy raids/assaults assume the existence of the stock freighters

It's also a good idea in general to ensure each race has at least one or two of most hull classes (Frigate, Destroyer, Light Cruiser, etc) in each year.  It's not essential, but it does tend to smooth out some other oddities.

If you want to ensure a ship doesn't appear in gameplay unless a script absolutely requires it, you can also change the hull type to SPECIAL (instead of Frigate, LightCruiser, or whatever).

Just as an aside on the officer quality side of things, most of the code for the officers is still actually in place for in EAW/OP (the mission scripts can assign rookie, legendary etc officers of different types to ships) but the ship blobs no longer carry that information forward from mission to mission.

dave

[Panzergranate]

I replaced a lot of the freighters in SFC 1 with more interesting types. I use Hensley, Ptolomey, Packhorse, FS and FL models with new stats relabelled into FSPh, FLPh, etc.

The with the Kingons I replaced some of the freighters with my own models and others with a D5H (K'teremny with pod)  or Atra-Hasis's excellent N7 transport tug.

For the Lyrans I used Puma and Cougar fleet tugs or the stock freighters.

I plan to do a freighter model for the Gorns as the Fed things are a bit of a grind.

You can replace models and specs for freighters so long as they are labelled as in game stock freighters.

It works for other ships as well if you want something different as opponents in campaign and skirmish game missions.

I just add extra new ships and they are able to be purchased in shipdock as escorts, though you can't fly them personally, unlesss you are playying as a Klingon. I managed to play as a Klingon AD5 as my only ship (sometimes) in a campaign game. The AD5 is not a stock ship for SFC 1 but well recommended. Another time a D6Z drone mass bombardment cruiser, intended in SFB for planetary and base bombardment, it is great until alll the drones are exhausted as it lacks an abundance other weapons. takes out Gorn DNs in seconds though whilst it has drones in racks.

I run a mix of stock and additional ships in campaign. Only the Feds seems to need one ship to be stock in the squadron, the others don't.

I've also replaced some of the fighters with Fed F-14 and F-15 fighter modles and altered the specs to the SFB specs for them. note that drones cannot be carried by SFC 1 fighters if replacing the stock Hydran ones. I use the Fed ones in the patrol and attack slots.

Another wird annoyance is that only Fed, Hydran and Lyrans can have the buy fighters option. However in multiplayer games agsinst the AI, all side that have ships or bases that can carry fighters, can have them. I've had a Klingon D7V launch fighters but if I'm playing a D7V I can't buy them for it.

Also only in LAN games can you fly 3 ships in a side as online games stall or slow up unless you have just one ship per side. If playing in a LAN network avoid wireless networks as they're too slow and don't handle multiple ship sides well either. Use cable routers if you can.

I hear that SFC2 has the same limits here as SFC 1 does.

Playing serial games is fun too, playing Bacon Fest with someone ends up as a human players versus the AI when my son and myslef play it.

[Rod ONeal]

Hi Dave,
Nice to see you get out of the D2 forums for a bit. I know they keep you busy over there doing up campaign scripts. First, let me thank you for all of the support that you give the game. It's not like we have many C++ gurus and you've been there consistently for a long time now.
I've downloaded and printed out your entire SFC scripting tutorial that you did for EAW a long time ago (Cam's as well) and with absolutely no idea about C++ I've managed to make working skirmish scripts. It's probably old hat to you, but for someone like me, it's like magic. You write the stuff out, compile it, get this  *.scr file, and it makes your game do what you want it to. It's like driving instead of being a passenger.
I'm sure that you are one of the main reasons this game continues to be played online.

[NuclearWessels]

thank ya kindly Rod,

though in truth I think the D2 has often survived in spite of the scripters, not because of us
It's the insane lunatics that still love playing the game that keeps this thing going.

dave

[Panzergranate]

Some of the things in Ship Edit do have the programmers admitting to not understanding what exactly they do. Some others, Deck Crews for instance, they didn't understand.

There are also a lot of things in SFC 1 that were put in but never used or didn't work out in development, were disabled, but still register as attributes in the spec files. The Drone B attribute for instance, which is not used by the game. ADD_6 and ADD_12 are another pair of ship attributes that can be set but do absolutely nothing in the SFC 1 game. However SFC 2 does have them working I assume??

I think that they wanted to put in a lot more of SFB into SFC 1 then they could but were up against time and other limitations. SFC 2 was the next attempt to fulfill these ambitions.

SFC 1 does run exactly to the SFB manuals even down to repair times of systems. Some of the all time greats of computer gamies were board or wargames originally as these translate into software well. Everything has already been developed and trashed out. Computers like dice throwing.

Hopefully SFC in all it's guises will last as long and become as adictive as UFO Alien Unknown, an old 386 DOS game which wouldn't run on XP or Viista, so 15 years after it's relaese, there's a special version downloadable for free called UFO Alien Unknown Gold, which does. If you've played this campaign game, and one game takes about 2 to 3 years to complete in any way you want, you'll know just how adictive it is. It was voted into the top 5 all time greats a few years ago by magazine viewers.

I wish they'd re-do it so that the away team mission could be run as first player shoot 'em ups!! Even online team campaigns playing as X-Com!!

I've always wanted to do games programming but, as an electronics design engineer, I am stuck with writing code for embedded systems, PC cards, or occasionally some more interesting things. Everything for drinks machines to millitary SBRDs.

A useful bug on some Coke Cola machines that allows you to obtain 2 or 3 cans for the price of one!!

If you can "bounce" the button for selection rapidly in a fraction of a second you can have the machine out tow or three cans for one payment. This takes a lot of practice to do as you have to do it in milliseconds!!

There is a deliberate software bug in the embedded system. The system counts the number of times the button is pushed in a time period and if the number of button pushes is more than 0, runs a subroutine to punt out a can, decrements the BP counter and if it is more than 0 runs a subroutine to punt out a can, etc. The guy who programmed the system obviously planned to obtain freebies where ever he was in the world. He's saved me a fortune over the years!!

I find that if I clear my mind and don't conciously try to do it I can do it. I have to "use the force" so to speak.

You have to push the buttton, let it move back minutely and push it again so that it double or treble contacts in a millisecond. It takes a knack.

Er, none of you work for Coke Cola do you??