Topic: Getting audience reaction for a plotline

[Scottish Andy]

In writing the options, I realised that this could be taken as some sort of disguised social commentary issue. It is not. I was about to start writing this, based on my remembrance of two novels: the DS9 novel series 'Millennium' by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, and the TOS novel 'Timetrap' by David Dvorkin.

The former states that after the Grigari destroyed Earth "accidentally", Starfleet and Federation communications and directives were so slow to straighten themselves out that the Bajoran Ascendancy managed to gather worlds long denied UFP membership into a pseudo-Federation with their own Starfleet.

The latter states that the planned massive invasion of Earth the Klingons had just tried to pull off would not have succeeded in decapitating the Federation and causing it to crumble completely, as even if they had succeeded, that's not the way the UFP works. It would work with an empire under central rule (like the Klingons), but the Federation would still continue even if Earth was occupied.

So, do tell. What do you think would happen if the Klingons managed sneak in to Sol and lob a Genesis torpedo at Earth, wiping the surface clean of life and, well, everything else.

[kadh2000]

UFP would never go as a group on a war of conquest to wipe the Klingons out, but they might after a lot of haggling have the war that finally incorporates the Empire into the Federation.  Not sure that I would really care to read a story of the UFP where there wasn't an Earth as Federation HQ though.

[Governor Ronjar]

My vote is for the fractured response. My take from ENTERPRISE is that there would not be a Federation at all without humans (oddly) as the voice of reason. This is told in how the Vulcans and Andorians clashed, Andorians and Tellarites, etc. After all, for whatever reason, they chose 'backward old Earth' as the hub of their Federation. Starfleet, a human institution, is its main line of defense. The fact that they did this AFTER the Earth/Romulan War makes me wonder if the war somehow all compel others to believe Earth's views were correct. Or perhaps the war was an aggression launched by the Rommies to halt the Federation before it started by occupying Earth... But, anyway...

My belief is, espescially in the first 100-150 years, that the Federation would likely fold without its Champion.

This is not to say that the charter members and allies would not WANT to do the right thing... I just don't think they could agree on what the hell that would be...

my 10 cents

--thu guv!

[Commander La'ra]

You know my various ideas on this thanks to the IM conversation we had this afternoon, but in short, I'll say that losing Earth and everything on it is going to inhibit Starfleet's ability to respond more than you're allowing for.  As far as the UFP goes, I'm not sure if I'm seeing things in quite as extreme a vein as the Guv, but something like his fracturing theory will likely happen.  Even if the UFP survives, it'll be in a smaller, less dominant form.

Now, saying all that, I think what we're really looking at here is the start of an annihilative war between the Feddies and the Klinks, as some surviving factions in Starfleet begin using similar Doomsday devices against Klingon worlds, and the Klingons respond in kind.

Thermonuclear war, writ on an instellar scale, with planets rather than cities being shattered with single blows.

[Vipre]

This may be the same as answer three, but here goes anyway.

A key point here is: Where is the Federation Council and Starfleet top brass when Earth falls?

If the Klingons have the element of surprise and exceptional timing on their part to catch and kill both groups on Earth then without doubt the Federation crumbles.

Kill the brass and not the council and some heroic captain will step up to lead the Federation to victory while the council holds the members together. I mean just pick a legend, Kirk, Spock, Sulu, any number of other never named heroes forged in the 2260's and 70's. Kill the council and not the brass and the Federation goes into military mode ala Dominion War and you've got Galaxy at War as the Federation and it's allies go at a possible Klingon/Romulan alliance.

Now back to my answer, when I say the Federation crumbles I mean that the stronger members Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Orions (they were members right?) and whomever else would revert to local government control or more accurately a sense of "we have to make protection of Our People job one". This is no different I'd think to what would happen with the U.N. if it were destroyed, if the U.N. actually had any real power to start with. The member nations would do whatever it took to protect themselves/their survival and worry about the other nations later, even if it meant surrender or alliance with the attacker.

[Andromeda]

Leave out the robots, go to the mirror universe and have a DS9 episode.  You'd have to write the story on a less than epic level in part to really get at what it means to individuals.  Otherwise you're looking at a thousand or so pages to have an epic.

[Governor Ronjar]

Of course, La'ra. You never see things as extreme as I do.

But then, you generaly assume I am speaking of extremes.

---
Of course, to further add muck into this whole discussion, Trek from TOS on up has stated that humans are a far-flung society in the time period you're talking about. Simply taking out Earth isn't necessarily gonna accomplish anything. Kill a bunch of folk, sure. Piss in everyone's Cheerios, yeah. But there'll still be millions, if not billions of humans spread out everywhere.

Upon reflecting on this a couple of times, I still hold by the whole fracturing idea, but there'll be plenty of non-core-government human voices adding their wants and wishes into the mix. There might even have to be an effort from other member worlds of the UFP that have to reign in genocidal attempts at the hands of the humans who are looking to even the odds. I know Ford would be in that mix...

Then there's the question of Starfleet. If it survived at all, then there is a vast, nearly unaligned force there that may not be happy with how the situation is being resolved. This in itself can go a thousand ways.

To echo Rommie, this is not a subject that is going to be satisfactorilly dealt with in one, two or even three stories (Blatant jibe at the expense of Episodes I, II & III). It will be epic... No matter how you take it, there will be too many what-if's and how-come's to fill. I don't envy you the task of writing this beast.

my rambling opinion...

--thu guv!

[KOTH-KieranXC, Ret.]

Yeah, K-Fo would definitely be part of the 'have to do something to fight this' camp himself, even if it means technically going rogue.

This is a very interesting idea for an alternate universe here, Andy, but the Guv is definitely right - it'll be some kind of beast. It'll be a lot of writing if you want to do it justice.

[Czar Mohab]

Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Orions (they were members right?)

Orions? Members of the Federation? You bet, at one time they were. Long story short, they wanted something else, so became non-members due to carefully written contract that they used for joining (more or less, we can leave when we want, nothing you can do or say). Read below.

After all, for whatever reason, they chose 'backward old Earth' as the hub of their Federation. Starfleet, a human institution, is its main line of defense. The fact that they did this AFTER the Earth/Romulan War makes me wonder if the war somehow all compel others to believe Earth's views were correct.

A quote from my "history" book:
"SHIPS OF THE NATIONAL GUARDS
When tactical warp power was first created (by Earth) and available only at Earth, the Earth politicians generously offered to put their starships under Federation command as they were converted to use warp engines. The other members accepted this idea because tactical warp power was unproven, Earth was paying for it, and it put the larger Earth fleet under the control of the Federation Council rather than the President of Earth. Within a few years, however, the other member planets realized their mistake, in that Earth now had even more military power (compared to the rest of the Federation) than before.

In Y71, the Federation formally created the United Star Fleet, designating its ships United Star Ships. But the Federation member planets still did not entirely trust each other, and still faced the nightmare of military dominance by one member planet (Earth). The Earth politicians proposed a solution. They would license their tactical warp technology to all member planets,which could then participate in the construction of the new Republic-class starships. In the meantime, 'to facilitate training', each member planet would be allowed to convert some of its sublight ships to the early tactical warp designs (limited to warp[ 2.5). These ships would remain partof each member's National Fleet, but could be called upon to join Star Fleet in the event of an emergency."

Also, relevant to the two above quotes, shortened for simplicity:
Y1 Vulcans find Earth because of Earth's warp test.
Y4 Federation Formed
Y21 Federation encounters Orions. Start trading
Y40 First Fed-Rom war. Rom's use lasers and atomic missiles, Feds use many weapons from many different ships. No Feds realized that these were long lost Vulcans going home, as they never met face to face.
"Y45 A treaty between the Federation and the Orions effectively brings the Orions into the Federation albeit preserving some legal semblance of a semi-autonomous zone. This language, all but forgotten over the years, would come back to haunt the Federation 126 years later when the Orions invoke a clause of the treaty to become independent and neutral."
Y46 War over.
Y62 First Tactical Warp cruiser launched by Federation, also first ship to not be under command of a specific planet, although no Starfleet yet.
Y71 United Star Fleet is born



To the question at hand, what would the federation do?

Would they fall apart? Possibly.

Would they turn back on the klinks and start another war? Federation and Starfleet policy is to not fire first, so technically, it would be ok to fire back.

Would there be a HUGE vendetta against the Klingons? Perhaps, as the Federation may just abandon its peace loving state just long enough for a genocidal mission or campaign.

The Federation has several non-listed allies, more than those ever mentioned in canon trek, games, et al, and how many of them would let something like that happen? I believe that a counterstrike against the Klingons would be likely, its outcome unknown, and after that war, skirmish or whatever it would be, followed by a period of isolationism and rebuilding by the Federation (kind of like a "What have I done")

No matter what, I say kill Earth. Its a concept not oft tried.

Let the currents of imagination guide you on a course most appropriate!

Czar "What's with this 'Ensign' crap"? Mohab

P.S. Historical notes may not match what you have at home perfectly, my reference is SFB Module Y: The Early Years. Alot of canon Trek history is written in this book, surprisingly. I have found it to be accurate to an extent.

[Commander La'ra]

Some of us use SFB history as a guideline, some of us don't.  I, for example, steal whatever it is I like from SFB, while sticking as closely to canon Trek (That includes Enterprise) as possible.

[Governor Ronjar]

oh no...


not another one of these discussions...


--me:(

[Czar Mohab]

HAH! I didn't want a discussion about which history is better. The Orion Sindicate was, indeed, a former member according to canon Trek, and indeed, the Vulcans did have knowledge of other races before humans went warp, leading to the formation of the Federation. The history I used had dates that were easily obtained, and therefore that is what I went with. If I had easy access to, say, a history of the future Star Trek guide, I may have gone with that, or more likely, included both in what I wrote.

In any event, I did not wish to start a long discussion, only answer the questions that I could, the best that I could. No disrespect for who's history is right or wrong intended.

Personally, I feel both are right and wrong, but I digress...

Lets hear about this end of earth story, shall we?

Czar "Hope that helps" Mohab

[Commander La'ra]

HAH! I didn't want a discussion about which history is better.

Good.  Very good.  Good x 1000.