Topic: AOTK3: Capital ships and Penalty box.

[FPF-DieHard]

We will be using the “points at a time system” that was used on AOTK2.   Each side will have 10 Capital ship points that can be fielded at a time.  Below is the breakdown as to what each ship costs to field:

 

BCH/BCV:         2 Points
DN:                 3 Points
CVA:               4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:                  8 Points
Super BB:        10 Points (B11K)



NOTE:  if for some strange reason we get a massive influx of players I reserve the right to increase this.



My question is about the "penalty box."  On the SGO server there was a rule that if a capital  ship was killed, the points would be unavailable for 12 hours.   Example:  t00l is really drunk and looses an H-ID to Soreye's F-DF in a PvP fight, the Coalition can now only field 6 HM points until 12 hours has past.



How long should the Penalty box time be?  One of things I liked about the OOB system use in GW was that when a cap ship was killed it was gone from the board.  Would increasing the time to a full game year help to replicate this (36 real hours).  This increases the stakes of the capital ship battles and might make things more interesting.



But . . .



Does this make the stakes too high?  Ship loss needs to mean something but it shouldn't be too punitive that people feel really bad if they pull a "Shin."  Not having the capital ships on the board also robs the opponent of the chance to score VCs for killing them again.



Whatchu all think?  I'm kind of thinking no penalty box at all.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Make it 24 hours so it's easier to remember.

[Dizzy]

Got to make killing metal worth something otherwise the bad guys hop right bnack in one and you've done nothing strategic at all by killing one. 12 to 24 hr penaly.

[KBFLordKrueg]

How about the pilot that lost the Cap ship is the only one to suffer?
They can't fly another for 12-24 hrs, but the points are not subtracted from the side as a whole....?

[Dizzy]

How about the pilot that lost the Cap ship is the only one to suffer?
They can't fly another for 12-24 hrs, but the points are not subtracted from the side as a whole....?

Same thing... You do nothing to rid the enemy of flying heavy metal. Why have a cap system at all if you cant keep them out of somthing for a short time... Makes killing a cap ship worthless. Makes checking out the kill page to see when your team lost one useless. Makes bothering at all to risk a killing a DN worthless. Who cares if it accomplishes nothing? The only thing not having a penalty benefits are nutters. They just get to piss away as many big ships as they want.

[Julin Eurthyr]

How about the pilot that lost the Cap ship is the only one to suffer?
They can't fly another for 12-24 hrs, but the points are not subtracted from the side as a whole....?

Same thing... You do nothing to rid the enemy of flying heavy metal. Why have a cap system at all if you cant keep them out of somthing for a short time... Makes killing a cap ship worthless. Makes checking out the kill page to see when your team lost one useless. Makes bothering at all to risk a killing a DN worthless. Who cares if it accomplishes nothing? The only thing not having a penalty benefits are nutters. They just get to piss away as many big ships as they want.

How do you balance "making the kill worth something" against a "shin" situation?

The "per player" penalty, we can make as light / harsh as we want.  Only balance is how long to lock them out before they decide they missed too much server after being evicted from their favorite ship...
The "per side" penalty, is where I draw the line.  Why should I (casual player) be penalized from flying a I-CCZ or L-BCHT on a Thursday night because (insert nutter / day shift noob player name) got lucky, bought the I-BBZ (with all our build points), and lost it in battle against 2 human-piloted starbases  being guarded by the K-B10K that morning?

If this was a "Free BCH" server like SGO7, I have no problem locking up a whole side's cap ship points, because everyone has access to certain "capital ships", ie, the BCHs.

But in a "pay for any capital" ship environment like AOTK, we need to ensure that there's always a fair amount of capital ship points available at all times so that everyone gets a chance and feels competitive.

How about instead of locking points down, throw an extended fleet-wide "disengagement penalty" on the cap ship points, ie, if I lose an 8 point BBZ in 24,7, for the next 12 hours, the kitties can only have 2 cap ship points total in 24,7 or any of the 6 hexes adjacent to it.  (this allows the different shifts the opportunity to defend the area in the same day while still putting some hurt on the team for the loss...)

[FPF-DieHard]

The "per player" penalty, we can make as light / harsh as we want.  Only balance is how long to lock them out before they decide they missed too much server after being evicted from their favorite ship...
The "per side" penalty, is where I draw the line.  Why should I (casual player) be penalized from flying a I-CCZ or L-BCHT on a Thursday night because (insert nutter / day shift noob player name) got lucky, bought the I-BBZ (with all our build points), and lost it in battle against 2 human-piloted starbases  being guarded by the K-B10K that morning?

That's my thoughts.

[FPF-DieHard]

How about the pilot that lost the Cap ship is the only one to suffer?
They can't fly another for 12-24 hrs, but the points are not subtracted from the side as a whole....?

Same thing... You do nothing to rid the enemy of flying heavy metal. Why have a cap system at all if you cant keep them out of somthing for a short time... Makes killing a cap ship worthless. Makes checking out the kill page to see when your team lost one useless. Makes bothering at all to risk a killing a DN worthless. Who cares if it accomplishes nothing? The only thing not having a penalty benefits are nutters. They just get to piss away as many big ships as they want.

Remember, PvP kills are going back to direct VCs this server. Allowing the points on the board allows for a more target-rich enviroment and a greater chance to run up the score.

Julin give a great reason how casual player can be hurt by this.

[Dizzy]

The "per player" penalty, we can make as light / harsh as we want.  Only balance is how long to lock them out before they decide they missed too much server after being evicted from their favorite ship...
The "per side" penalty, is where I draw the line.  Why should I (casual player) be penalized from flying a I-CCZ or L-BCHT on a Thursday night because (insert nutter / day shift noob player name) got lucky, bought the I-BBZ (with all our build points), and lost it in battle against 2 human-piloted starbases  being guarded by the K-B10K that morning?

That's my thoughts.

I agree. I like the per player. Nice argument Julin, changed my mind about it.

[Electric Eye]

I agree with Julin, nobody else should suffer because of someone else's mistakes, the player should pay. A lock-out seems pretty cool, 24 hours.

[FPF-DieHard]

I agree with Julin, nobody else should suffer because of someone else's mistakes, the player should pay. A lock-out seems pretty cool, 24 hours.

I think the PP hit might be enough with BCs costing 20K, DNs about 40K, and BBs about 100K. 

[Dizzy]

not with a one month server. All the nutters will have all the cash. The casual players are the ones that are screwed. If you use inflation on the capital ship pricing toward the end of the server then u just screw the casual player in order to balance the nutter prestige accumulation... unless starting prestige is also subject to inflation...

[Electric Eye]

Dizzy is right, nutters will just go back to base and buy another one.  I should know, I used to be a nutter, hehehehehe.

[Hexx]

What about just removing the specific ship for a period of 24hrs?
ie the I-BBZ gets toasted, another ISC-BB can't be used for 24 hours, but a B11K or whatver is fine.

Fed CVA+ goes boom, You'll have to use the Lyran one for Fighters for 24 Hours.

[GDA-Agave]

I think the PP hit might be enough with BCs costing 20K, DNs about 40K, and BBs about 100K. 

I would prefer to see no "penalty box" rule where it concerned a reduction of capital ship points ever, either for the side or the player.   If a side gets to field 10 pts of capital ships, that should remain constant.  BUT, if you make the penalty for the area where the ship was lost.   Kinda like a beefed up destruction disengagement penalty area for capital ships DN class and above only.   BCHs class ships should be able to be flung into battle as quickly as bought.(after the standard disengagement time penalty)  Say, a one hex radius including the combat hex penalty area.  This would allow the same ships to be bought, even by the same player, but they could not be used in the same spot.   This would provide a steady target rich environment of capital ships, but allow the side who killed the capital ships to only face BCH and smaller ships for awhile in that location.

I think that if this addition to our standard disengagement rules was only applied to all DN and BB class ships it would work.   I realize that the disengagement rule is not a particularly popular rule (I'm against certain elements of it myself) and adding to it might just be the start of a slippery slope.   But here I think the slight addiction might just be the compromise needed so that pilots flying at different times can all use these big ships.   They would just have to be aware of where they can use them.  Isn't that the true basis for penalizing the loss of a capital ship anyway? Stopping its usuage in a certain area?

The record keeping should be kept by both sides and communicated back to their forums on a timely basis, as well as a specific thread for it here.

That's it.   Give it a good spanking now.  (bad Newt; bad, bad Newt)   

[Hexx]

It's decent.
But my idea is brilliant so..

[GDA-Agave]

It's decent.
But my idea is brilliant so..

Ah, it must be hard being you.


(I know I certainly don't want to try it.  )

[FPF-DieHard]

There will be no penalty boc on this server, the loss of PP and VC points will be enough.