Topic: AOTK3: PvP and Map VC points

[FPF-DieHard]

In the previous 2 AOTK servers, the primary focus of the conflist was over planets in the cent of the map.   There were other objectives, but this was the meat and potatoes of the Victory conditions points.   AOTK3 will stick with this.

I've outlined the PvP VCs in a previous thread, here are the most recent incarnation of those:

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 3 points
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

Here is what I'm thinking for the map VCs . . .   

Any of the 7 Center Dilithium/Nip Planets:  20 VC points  (With Line of Supply)
Any opposed captured planet:                     5 VC points (With Line of Supply)

With these ratios, I think more map VCs will be scored than PvP during the course of the campaign.

Please post questions and comments.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Acceptable.

[KBF MalaK]

Acceptable.

I take it you've seen the spec ship list then ?? Thats the part thats scary seeing a spec ship is 3 (regardless of size) and a CA is 2.

Hmm

[KBFLordKrueg]

Acceptable.

I take it you've seen the spec ship list then ?? Thats the part thats scary seeing a spec ship is 3 (regardless of size) and a CA is 2.

Hmm

Spec ship means Carriers, escorts, droners, maulers, Commando...anything that's not a Capitol ship, Command cruiser or line ship.

[FPF-DieHard]

Acceptable.

I take it you've seen the spec ship list then ?? Thats the part thats scary seeing a spec ship is 3 (regardless of size) and a CA is 2.

Hmm

Spec ship means Carriers, escorts, droners, maulers...anything that's not a Command cruiser or line ship.

Kreug, this isn't a huge sticking point with me.   If you and Dlfy want to set the Scorecard level for Spec ships to be the same as CAs that's fine with me.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

With these ratios, I think more map VCs will be scored than PvP during the course of the campaign.

Please post questions and comments.

I wouldn't be so sure about that if two DN kills are worth a planet, or will there be VC rounds in which planet points are counted.

Also with opposed planets being worth so much less you pretty much elininate most of the map from most of the play.  I think you should make all the planets equal and let the proximity of the Nip planets be the main draw to that part of the map.  It might be just as easy to take an opposing world to a nip planet but a nip planet is closer to more targets.

If anything the opposing plaets should be worth more, as they will be more difficult to take.

[FPF-DieHard]

I wouldn't be so sure about that if two DN kills are worth a planet, or will there be VC rounds in which planet points are counted.

Doh!   yes, there will be rounds, 3 or 4 VC periods so holding the territroy adds up.   Forgot to mention that.

If anything the opposing plaets should be worth more, as they will be more difficult to take.

No, I want people focussing at the center of the map.  the best way to do that is to make the Centers worth the most.

Taking the center planets  won't be the hard part.   HOLDING the center planets is where the fun begins

[FPF-DieHard]

PS.   The map has been updated with the planets and bases.  Embasy basses will be added basck and I still have to add terrain.   

The Center planets have been Set as Klingon for now so they are easy to spot.

[FPF-Paladin]

Looks really cool, can't wait for the start. 

[Kruk]

In the previous 2 AOTK servers, the primary focus of the conflist was over planets in the cent of the map.   There were other objectives, but this was the meat and potatoes of the Victory conditions points.   AOTK3 will stick with this.

I've outlined the PvP VCs in a previous thread, here are the most recent incarnation of those:

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 3 points
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

Here is what I'm thinking for the map VCs . . .   

Any of the 7 Center Dilithium/Nip Planets:  20 VC points  (With Line of Supply)
Any opposed captured planet:                     5 VC points (With Line of Supply)

With these ratios, I think more map VCs will be scored than PvP during the course of the campaign.

Please post questions and comments.

Looks good,

I know it's only a beta but shouldn't planet be worth some economy points? right now they have 0

Also I saw the F-DVL at 15000 and the DNL and DN+ over the 40000.

Having a few planets on the way to the center would help replenishing. These could be worth nothing in terms of economic points. Just have them for resupply.

Just my toughts

[FPF-DieHard]

Looks good,

I know it's only a beta but shouldn't planet be worth some economy points? right now they have 0

Also I saw the F-DVL at 15000 and the DNL and DN+ over the 40000.

Having a few planets on the way to the center would help replenishing. These could be worth nothing in terms of economic points. Just have them for resupply.

Just my toughts

OP+ 4 has the DVL listed as CARRIER, it's flagged as DN in the mod.

I'm thinking about adding some small resupply planets

[Dizzy]

OP+4.0 cannot ever be used as a dyna server shiplist. It's not dyna friendly.

Hey DH, do you have deepstrike rules? The way u have it, if you dont have to fight to the death if caught is that .67 ships can move around in an enemy's rear and two p[eeps can take seperate missions solo, and wait till they get where they are going then draft each other in a base assault. I'd add to the rule that says line ships under 1 move cost are worth zero unless deepstriking.

[FPF-DieHard]

OP+4.0 cannot ever be used as a dyna server shiplist. It's not dyna friendly.

Hey DH, do you have deepstrike rules? The way u have it, if you dont have to fight to the death if caught is that .67 ships can move around in an enemy's rear and two p[eeps can take seperate missions solo, and wait till they get where they are going then draft each other in a base assault. I'd add to the rule that says line ships under 1 move cost are worth zero unless deepstriking.

Yup, the DS rules are the same as we've used for the past 10 servers so I didn't bother to post them for review.

[Dizzy]

Can u post the complete rules now?

[FPF-DieHard]

Can u post the complete rules now?

By this weekend yes.   That will still give everyone a week to review before we go live. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

No, I want people focussing at the center of the map.  the best way to do that is to make the Centers worth the most.

Taking the center planets  won't be the hard part.   HOLDING the center planets is where the fun begins

They would focus on the center anyways, but with that point scheme there is no reason to be anywhere else, you might as well trim off the other areas entirely, or "zoom in" the center where 1 hex = 7 hexes.  Whats the point of having the other areas at all if they are effectively removed from play anyhow.  Having the other space included under the current system seems awfully to borrow a friends favorite word.....RETARDED.

[FPF-DieHard]

No, I want people focussing at the center of the map.  the best way to do that is to make the Centers worth the most.

Taking the center planets  won't be the hard part.   HOLDING the center planets is where the fun begins

They would focus on the center anyways, but with that point scheme there is no reason to be anywhere else, you might as well trim off the other areas entirely, or "zoom in" the center where 1 hex = 7 hexes.  Whats the point of having the other areas at all if they are effectively removed from play anyhow.  Having the other space included under the current system seems awfully retarded.

Maybe 10 points instead of 5 would work to kind of balance this.   If Kreug and Dlfy are cool with this, we can change thisl.

On thing I do want to point out is the Center plants are HOMEWORLDs and the assults are going to be brutal.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Maybe 10 points instead of 5 would work to kind of balance this.   If Kreug and Dlfy are cool with this, we can change thisl.

On thing I do want to point out is the Center plants are HOMEWORLDs and the assults are going to be brutal.

I think 10 points wouldn't change a thing, although it is some better, especially with homeworld assaults figured in.  I still think 20 would be fine and still make the center planets the main target, not just because of the points for one, but becuse they serve as resupply for the others, something not so much the case in enemy space.  In enemy space the foe starts out with control of all the surrounding hexes so the work is doubled right off the bat, if not tripled.  Puptting the total at 20 would not change the main emphasis, it would just add possible side actions.

I mean come on would you make a main emphasis on taking a planet that was just 3-5 hexes away from the next target through neutral space, or go after a planet thats next closest target was 7-15 hexes away in enemy territory?  Even at the same point value, the main action is already determined.

I think 20 is the answer, 15 might work however, though I'm still skeptical.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Just run the idea through the RMs, whatever is decided is fine, just take my points under consideration.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

One other factor that I want to know more about, what DVs are you thinking for the center planets, the empire planets, empire territory, and neutral space?

Those factors and how they interact may make all of the above items mute or even more important depending.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

One additional thing to contemplate,

What id the very center planet is not a Homeworld like the others.  If that one wasn't it may increase fighting around it even more, and it might make it difficult for a side to secure the "tie-breaker" and make fighting at the end of each VC period center around that one in heavy action.

[Dfly]

Just back from the long weekend up here.  Will post comments about this once I have a chance to read all things over.

[Dfly]

Acceptable.

I take it you've seen the spec ship list then ?? Thats the part thats scary seeing a spec ship is 3 (regardless of size) and a CA is 2.

Hmm

Spec ship means Carriers, escorts, droners, maulers...anything that's not a Command cruiser or line ship.

Kreug, this isn't a huge sticking point with me.   If you and Dlfy want to set the Scorecard level for Spec ships to be the same as CAs that's fine with me.

I dont know for sure with Krueg, but I like the idea that spec ships are worth more than a line ship.  Afterall spec ships are rarer and costlier to build.

[Dfly]

No, I want people focussing at the center of the map.  the best way to do that is to make the Centers worth the most.

Taking the center planets  won't be the hard part.   HOLDING the center planets is where the fun begins

They would focus on the center anyways, but with that point scheme there is no reason to be anywhere else, you might as well trim off the other areas entirely, or "zoom in" the center where 1 hex = 7 hexes.  Whats the point of having the other areas at all if they are effectively removed from play anyhow.  Having the other space included under the current system seems awfully retarded.

Maybe 10 points instead of 5 would work to kind of balance this.   If Kreug and Dlfy are cool with this, we can change thisl.

On thing I do want to point out is the Center plants are HOMEWORLDs and the assults are going to be brutal.

I would like to see the other planets worth something more.  I suggest 15 for the other planets.  The center will of course get the main brunt of the fight, but this way at least all the work to take ANY other planet would be worth at least something.

[FPF-DieHard]

No, I want people focussing at the center of the map.  the best way to do that is to make the Centers worth the most.

Taking the center planets  won't be the hard part.   HOLDING the center planets is where the fun begins

They would focus on the center anyways, but with that point scheme there is no reason to be anywhere else, you might as well trim off the other areas entirely, or "zoom in" the center where 1 hex = 7 hexes.  Whats the point of having the other areas at all if they are effectively removed from play anyhow.  Having the other space included under the current system seems awfully retarded.

Maybe 10 points instead of 5 would work to kind of balance this.   If Kreug and Dlfy are cool with this, we can change thisl.

On thing I do want to point out is the Center plants are HOMEWORLDs and the assults are going to be brutal.

I would like to see the other planets worth something more.  I suggest 15 for the other planets.  The center will of course get the main brunt of the fight, but this way at least all the work to take ANY other planet would be worth at least something.

If Kreug agrees, I'll bump it up to 15

[Dizzy]

Curious, why are they all homeworlds? Usually this only benefits the more numerous team. Besides, always homeworlds will get monotonous. will it not?

[FPF-DieHard]

Curious, why are they all homeworlds? Usually this only benefits the more numerous team. Besides, always homeworlds will get monotonous. will it not?

I want the initial assults to be challenging, they are staying as homeworlds.

EDIT:   Let me think about this.    i'm going to run some of the homeworld assaults tonight to see how evl it realy is and I may toned the planets down a bit, maybe just leave the center as an HW.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I dont know for sure with Krueg, but I like the idea that spec ships are worth more than a line ship.  Afterall spec ships are rarer and costlier to build.

in the same hull class yes, overall not necessarily.  It is hard to imagine that a frigate would cost more than a heavy cruiser in all cases.  Commando ship might be even cheaper in the same hull class since extra bunks are a lot cheaper than extra heavy weapons.

[FPF-DieHard]

I dont know for sure with Krueg, but I like the idea that spec ships are worth more than a line ship.  Afterall spec ships are rarer and costlier to build.

in the same hull class yes, overall not necessarily.  It is hard to imagine that a frigate would cost more than a heavy cruiser in all cases.  Commando ship might be even cheaper in the same hull class since extra bunks are a lot cheaper than extra heavy weapons.

I like broad generalization, and generalizations about broads.  The Spec Ships designation is REGARDLESS of hull class for PvP points.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Well I guess a Command Cruiser should be worth more than a CA so I guess it balances out overall,  even if there are specific areas where one might shake one's head.

You should edit this line however

"Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 3 points"

to "Specialty ships are worth 3 point regardless of move cost except for Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost"

otherwise your rules contradict each other.

[FPF-DieHard]

Well I guess a Command Cruiser should be worth more than a CA so I guess it balances out overall,  even if there are specific areas where one might shake one's head.

You should edit this line however

"Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 3 points"

to "Specialty ships are worth 3 point regardless of move cost except for Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost"

otherwise your rules contradict each other.

I don't think this is needed because for as long as I can remember, Command cruisers have not been considered specialty ships.

[Dfly]

I also dont know of any command ships that are categorized as spec ships, unless I am missing your reasoning behind this Chutt.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

For as long as I can remember Command Crusiers have been considered specialty ships.

Specialty ships are made for specific purposes, Command Cruisers are made to command groups of ships.  They would be more expensive to build, are built on standard hulls, were fewer in number than their line counterparts due to such expense.  They would be worth more if destroyed by an enemy, not just because of their superior construction, but also becuse of the seniority of the officers commanding them who would be regional commanders and damage to an enemies command structure would always carry a higher value.  I can't think of this as not being considered a specialty ship by any stretch of the immagination.

As for being categorized, have any commando or scout ships been so categorized before?  Does this make them not specialty?

Simply put a Command Cruiser has always been a specialty ship, so if you want to treat them differently than other specialty ships thats fine, but it does not change the fact they they are specialty. 

As a side note, if you ever want people to consider flying more line ships far greater distinctions need to be made between the common line ship and the specialty command ship.  Not likely to happen over one point difference however even should the command ship be placed with its fellow specialty ships.  Line ships would only get wide consideration if they were either free from disengagement penalties, did not count for pvp points, or both.

[FPF-DieHard]

For as long as I can remember Command Crusiers have been considered specialty ships.

Specialty ships are made for specific purposes, Command Cruisers are made to command groups of ships.  They would be more expensive to build, are built on standard hulls, were fewer in number than their line counterparts due to such expense.  They would be worth more if destroyed by an enemy, not just because of their superior construction, but also becuse of the seniority of the officers commanding them who would be regional commanders and damage to an enemies command structure would always carry a higher value.  I can't think of this as not being considered a specialty ship by any stretch of the immagination.

As for being categorized, have any commando or scout ships been so categorized before?  Does this make them not specialty?

Simply put a Command Cruiser has always been a specialty ship, so if you want to treat them differently than other specialty ships thats fine, but it does not change the fact they they are specialty. 

As a side note, if you ever want people to consider flying more line ships far greater distinctions need to be made between the common line ship and the specialty command ship.  Not likely to happen over one point difference however even should the command ship be placed with its fellow specialty ships.  Line ships would only get wide consideration if they were either free from disengagement penalties, did not count for pvp points, or both.

For AOTk3, Command ships are NOT considered Spec ships.   End of discussion.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I also dont know of any command ships that are categorized as spec ships, unless I am missing your reasoning behind this Chutt.

Oh here is another aspect, in several cases Command class ships wer given special rules that allowed them to head multiship fleets that were not enjoyed by other line ships.  The most recent example of this was SGO7

"A command variant no larger than CCH class may lead a second regular line ship (vanilla) of the same race as long as the second ship's move cost is less than that of the command ship."

A clear example of a special ability being assigned to the command category.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

For AOTk3, Command ships are NOT considered Spec ships.   End of discussion.

Fair enough you Command cruiser cheeser 

P.S.  Not saying I don't like my drone boat cheese. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

For AOTk3, Command ships are NOT considered Spec ships.   End of discussion.

Fair enough. 

If they weren't needed to fill gaps for replacement ships for destroyed vessels I'd say just take the line ships out of the list.  Noone will be flying them, well except for maybe Alpha Geek and those who like the Hydran Ranger.  It sure would help the shipyards in producing the specific ships that people wanted to fly.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

BTW DieHard, have you decided on the hex DV values yet?

[FPF-DieHard]

BTW DieHard, have you decided on the hex DV values yet?

You could always sign on the test server and look 

Planet DVs are 20

[Dizzy]

Command cruisers were more rare than regular cruisers. I agree with chuut. But for simplcity's sake, I can deal with DH's ruling because I dont like the idea of having to fly plain cut line ships... CC's are so much more fun. Besides I think you might have an iddue with the ISC. They don't have any move cost 1 ships that arnt CC capable, right?

[Kruk]

Not That I do that, I never did. But are we gone be allowed to have numerous accounts on this server?

[Dizzy]

Not That I do that, I never did. But are we gone be allowed to have numerous accounts on this server?

I dont see why not, Kruk. Some players like multiple accounts so they can keep certain ships w/o habving to sell and rebuy them all the time. I've always allowed multiple accounts on my servers, unless DH says otherwise I'm sure you can make as many as you want, within reason of course. Only create the accounts you will actually play.