Topic: AOTK3: Capital Ships: **EDITED**

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Another lame tactic will develop, the "Send in the .67 boat anchor!"   -Dizzy-


Being lame minded, this is the first tactic that popped into mind when this debate started.

I seem to recall in the not too distant past the art of 3 guys jumping a solo player that brought much frustration and cries about hunting packs, thus always grab a wing became the mantra which isn't always possible.

At any rate, what Mrogue said should be the minimum. 3 - 0.67 ships show up, they are worth at least a point.

[GDA-Agave]

I have to somewhat agree with Dizzy on this.  I think that removing any PvP kill points for most ships (not speciality) CL class or smaller is bad. (m'kay)  It will encourage kamikaze style flying in those pilots.   This same thing happened on one of the General War servers.  I don't remember what class of ship, but the majority of pilots flying those just kamikazed when caught by an opponent so that they could take advantage of the smaller disengagement penalty for being killed instead of disengaging.   This one trend really ruined my enthusiasm for that server.

All ships should have some point value for being killed in PvP.  Even if it's just a 1/2 point.  It might discourage kamikazing type tactics for most pilots if they know they are hurting their team's PvP VC count, even if it by just a little.

How about this?  Make a rule that makes the disengagement rule penalty for non-speciality ships of CL class or smaller the same for both being killed or disengaging.  Pilots would realize that if they are outgunned there would not be any advantage gained by them for kamikazing their ship at the larger opponent.  This makes great sense to me.

[GDA-Agave]

Another lame tactic will develop, the "Send in the .67 boat anchor!"

This tactic will always be used when the smaller ship anchor, if lost, will give up less PvP points than the ship it is attacking.  Point is, if the "anchor" escort gets killed which it usually does, their opponents should get whatever PvP points to help offset the PvP points they just lost.  And/or this might just make those pilots attempting this tactic to be a little more wise about when and where they attempt it so that they are not just giving up points and not getting the big kill.   

[Dizzy]

I have to somewhat agree with Dizzy on this.  I think that removing any PvP kill points for most ships (not speciality) CL class or smaller is bad. (m'kay)  It will encourage kamikaze style flying in those pilots.   This same thing happened on one of the General War servers.  I don't remember what class of ship, but the majority of pilots flying those just kamikazed when caught by an opponent so that they could take advantage of the smaller disengagement penalty for being killed instead of disengaging.   This one trend really ruined my enthusiasm for that server.

Ahh, well said and best spoken from experience.

[FPF-DieHard]

My 2 cents worth.  If flown in a fleet, a 0.67 should be worth a point!!

What about CW/CWLs are worth 1 point each when flying in a fleet of 3?  Solo or in a fleet of 2 they are still worth nothing.

[FPF-DieHard]

Also, does anyone have anything to say about stuff besides the War Cruiser rule?

[The_Joker]

Personally, I kind of think this.  Any pilot killed in enemy territory should count as a point.  They chose to fly in there and it shouldn't matter what ship they are flying when they do it.

I don't know how complicated it would be, but I'd make any ship flown by a living person at least one point and double it if they are killed in enemy territory since they are there of their own volition.

[Dizzy]

My 2 cents worth.  If flown in a fleet, a 0.67 should be worth a point!!

What about CW/CWLs are worth 1 point each when flying in a fleet of 3?  Solo or in a fleet of 2 they are still worth nothing.

Why are you trying to give CWL's a blank check to cash on this server? What's really wrong with them being worth 1 point each. CA's worth 2 and BC's worth 6 and so on? Keep a little balance, would ya?


Edit: btw, Z-DW's are your generic brand cheap liquor and 3 of them running in packs with impunity will be a scary sight to see... I'll do it too!

Ummm, question, are HDW's considered special?

[Dizzy]

Here's another problem with your ruleset. We are gonna be flying in battle and having a discussion of whether to even fire at someone flying a .67 ship if there is another one that's worth points. And then you gotta worry about the kamikaze boat anchor. Ridiculous. It's gonna add dynamics to a PvP fight that are just dumb. I don't have fun in those sorta fights. Why even add this dilema to the battle? It's stupid. Just slap a one point sticker price to CWL's and we can all move on to flame you about something else. Other than this...

I still think you need to setup a different VC tier for BCH vs BCV/T. They shouldnt be worth the same. And what of casual PF's? I dont think this got addressed formally.

And I see no issue with your weird idea of how to field BB's. I'm all for trying that.

[FPF-DieHard]

Ummm, question, are HDW's considered special?

Absolutely yes!

[FPF-DieHard]

What about this . . .

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

[Dfly]

What about this . . .

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

I love it.  I was actulally going to propose this sort of idea.  Not sure on the points being right, but so far I think it is great.  You even added the BCH/BCV differential, nice.   I would totally agree on this.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Battleship activation:  All BBs by default will be restricted.  BBs can be unrestricted at the cost of 10 VC points.  Upgrades to a BB (B11K) can be unlocked for an additional 5 VC points.   Each side will start with 10 VC points in the bank to they will be able to unlock at least 1 BB or they can choose to not spend the points to add to their score.

By "restricted" you mean unavailable in the yards?
And do you really think the B11K is such a bad ass that it needs 5 additional points to even activate?
Having it use up 100% of the capitol ships points is one thing, but, IMOP it isn't a "Super" BB as it's name implies.
It's more like competitive with the other races BBs that "Historically" were developed after the B-10, pretty much making the B-10 obsolete.
The B-10 is supreme when it comes out in 2273, far ahead of the other BBs (as the "Historical" timelines go), but, as other races come out with their own BBs, it's quickly outclassed.
And that includes the B-10K, too.
Match the B11K vs the Fed BB (which, by "Historical" timelines came out very late), you'll see what I mean.

[Dfly]

I have to agree with Krueg there.

[FPF-DieHard]

I have to agree with Krueg there.

If the Opposing RM has no issue, then neither do I.  I'll reword it sometime tonight.

you guys wanna add the BBVs?   

[FPF-DieHard]

Match the B11K vs the Fed BB (which, by "Historical" timelines came out very late), you'll see what I mean.

Though I'm yeilding the point because the Ktty RM does not object, I still don't know how you can say the Fed BB and the B11K are in the same weight class.   The I-BBVZ on the other hand is a monster.


Designation: F-BB
BPV: 337
Crew: 82
Marines: 26
Shield 1: 68
Shield 2 & 6: 45
Shield 3 & 5: 45
Shield 4: 45
Total Shields: 293

Movement Cost: 2
Turn Mode: F
Total Warp Power: 60
Impulse Power: 6
Aux Power: 12
Total Engine Power: 66
Battery: 12

Transporters: 8
Tractors: 5
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 6
Fighters: 6

10x Photon
6x Missle Rack B
3x Missle Rack G
15x Phaser 1
3x Phaser G
3x ADD 6


Designation: K-B11K
BPV: 403
Crew: 81
Marines: 32
Shield 1: 74
Shield 2 & 6: 51
Shield 3 & 5: 51
Shield 4: 51
Total Shields: 329

Movement Cost: 2
Turn Mode: E
Total Warp Power: 60
Impulse Power: 17
Aux Power: 6
Total Engine Power: 77
Battery: 12

Transporters: 12
Tractors: 5
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 6
Fighters: 8

10x Disruptor 4
8x Missle Rack B
19x Phaser 1
6x Phaser 3
4x ADD 12

[KBFLordKrueg]

I have to agree with Krueg there.

If the Opposing RM has no issue, then neither do I.  I'll reword it sometime tonight.

you guys wanna add the BBVs?   

IMO...I don't see the need.
If used, they should cost more capitol ship points than BBs however, not to even mention the obvious greater PP cost.
But, If Dfly wants them included, I have no real objections.

[Dfly]

DH you have an error in the list for the Fed BB.  Here is what you have listed (copied here from post above)

Movement Cost: 2
Turn Mode: F
Total Warp Power: 60
Impulse Power: 6
Aux Power: 12
Total Engine Power: 66
Battery: 12

The total engine power is not 66 as you did not add the Aux Power.  It should read 78.  That would put it 1 power over the Klingon one, though not a big difference.

[Dfly]

I dont really care to have the BBVs involved myself.

[Dfly]

I have a comment then.   (examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5L
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships but loses the 2 D5L,  0 points per team
Team A kills 3 ships but loses only the C7,  Team B gets 3 points

other scenario(examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5W
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships, but lose a single ship,   Team B scores at least 1 point.
Team A loses any other ship,  Team B scores more points.
Team B loses all ships,  no loss of points

Being on Team A, I get to control the area for a while and give up a point or 4, or till the next fleet moves in and attacks.  Then our team gets to lose 1 or more points again to try to control that area for a limited time again.  We win, we control a bit longer till someone else moves in and attacks, or the first group has served their 1/2 hour and are back.  This time say they win the battle, we lose another 5 points and now they control the area.  OR, we see we are losing the battle and dont want to lose even more points and run off.  Team B gets control of that area.

If I was on team A, I would seriously be getting my team to use only .67 cost movement ships not worth any points to control a hex.  You lose, well you are banned from that hex for a bit, but your team does not lose points.  You win, team B is banned from that hex and you dont lose or gain points, just control for a bit, or next battle.

Perhaps it is only me, but that is what I would see happening.  Either that or Team A will have to fly maybe a DNH or better and 2 good CA ships for wings in order to try to control the area.  Even then team B could go kamikaze and try to get one of the ships for points before dying.

Just trying to see if that is what people think will happen is all.

Team A would use a Big Plasma DN, Iron Duke, or a Battleship with 2 CCHs forcing the CWL fleet off the map until they come back in a fleet capable of winning the battle.   

When you want to control a hex, your bring a gun to a Gunfight.

C7 and 2 D5w?  Come on, it would be C7 with 2 NHK or G-CCH which the CWL fleet would have snowball's chance in hell of beating.

I used those ships as an example.  As if those would be the actual ships, come on.  I left the ships up to the imagination but thought if I went Ship X ship Y  and ship Z, many would not catch on to what I was trying to say.