Topic: AOTK3: Capital Ships: **EDITED**

[FPF-DieHard]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

Um, did you diferentiate between BCH and BCV on SGO?   Ever?      This is practily copied from the last SGO servers.

That's right, nobody actually read those rules!   

Yeah they did cuz the VC points were seperate like this:

BCV/T - Carrier, Casual (2 PF's) or Full Tender (3+ PF's):  4  (1 and 1.25 move cost)
BC/H:  3  (1 and 1.25 move cost) (Includes all Lyran BC's with 2 PF's)[/list]

I think a BCH/BCS (not the 2 PF Mech link variant) should be worht as many points as a CX.   This is a reasonable suggestion, I will make the change.

[Dizzy]

I edited the rule so it is more clearly understood.  I see how it could be confusing from how it was worded.

Please ask for a clarification before typing a long winded rant that turns out to be BS.

What did you reword? BCH is still worth 5 points while two CLC's or D5L's which can kill a BCH are worth NOTHING. That is BS. And I dont see that being long winded. Are BCH's less expensive pp wise than war cruisers which operate with impunity? If that's the case I'll get reinterested in this war-cruiser server of yours.

[FPF-DieHard]

I edited the rule so it is more clearly understood.  I see how it could be confusing from how it was worded.

Please ask for a clarification before typing a long winded rant that turns out to be BS.

What did you reword? BCH is still worth 5 points while two CLC's or D5L's which can kill a BCH are worth NOTHING. That is BS. And I dont see that being long winded. Are BCH's less expensive pp wise than war cruisers which operate with impunity? If that's the case I'll get reinterested in this war-cruiser server of yours.

You are honestly afraid people will run amock in CWLs? 

There is still a disengagment rule, people will still throw together ships centered areound cruisers and larger ships to control the important hexes.  War cruisers will still be out-gunned in most situations and people will spend most of their time in bigger ships.  Hex-munchers will still be ain D5Ds and DWDs which are worth points when killed. 

[Dizzy]

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?   

I applaud your eforts to want to turn the server into a war cruiser server with your ruleset to get players to fly warcruisers again. But I'm sorry to be the one that points out your VC point rules are hugely unfair and unbalanced. It's not right to let 3x D5L's or whatever and I can think of really good hard to beat combos allowed to wing together while the whole fleet of them isnt worth any PvP points. I'm really on the edge of deciding whether or not I'm gonna have fun playing this server if what I fight isnt worth anything. What youy will have are fleets of winging war cruisers running around. So 3x D5D's or 3x MDC's can wing? There isnt a line ship rule for the third ship? And then this whole fleet if entirely destroyed isnt worth any points??? Compound that with big pp costs for larger ships like BC and DN and why bother flying them at all if fleets of drone boats can run amok with impunity? Sheesh.

Again, if you had stated AOTK3 was going to be a war cruiser server, I wouldnt have been as excited about the server as I have been. I'm certainly not very enthused about it anymore.

Stop smoking crak 

Where the hell do you gets that a D5D is not worth points?   I know you don't actually read your own rules but please read mine before you make ridiculous statements.

SPECIALTY SHIPS ARE ALWAYS WORTH VC POINTS WHEN KILLED

The Fleeting rules posted the other day stated that the thrid ship in a Fleet has to be line/command.  I'm posting the rules is stages for community review so people actually read them.

Ok sorry bout that, so one of the ships has to be a line, okies. But still, a D5L and 2x D5D's should be worth more than NOTHING. Look, I dont want to be an ass here and argue with you about your server, but I'll probably not be playing it in its current form, (But I will completely 100% assist you with the map or anything not related to playing, you have my complete support and help). I know you couldnt care less, but I see such a PvP disparity the way the VC points are worked. Please consider closing the gap. Lower the BCH VC or consider war cruisers worth points.

Here's my idea. Since you want so badly to have a war cruiser server then what about lowering BCH VC points to 3 and saying that if 2 of the three war cruisers are killed then u get a point? That way they wont be completely expendable.The rule would need more clarification when a war cruise wings with something else. My idea is to counter your completely suicidal tactics ruleset, in which you know as well as I that I fly completely differently as a player when I know my ship is expendable and wont hurt my team if I die and I think others will too. I dont like those kinda PvP games, to be honest, qlthough I do find it easier to kill people playing that style. But you have to close the gap between war cruisers and everything else.

EDIT: My besat idea: Maybe inflate all the VC points upward a bit and give the war cruisrs a 1 cost. So the ratio was 24 to 4? That's 6 to 1. So war cruisrs are worth 1 and BCH 6?

[FPF-DieHard]

EDIT: My besat idea: Maybe inflate all the VC points upward a bit and give the war cruisrs a 1 cost. So the ratio was 24 to 4? That's 6 to 1. So war cruisrs are worth 1 and BCH 6?

4 CAs per year.   They could only build 1 BCH so that ratio does not work.

I really think you a grossly over-reacting on this.  It is mind-boggling that anyone thinks people will run amock in CWLs, simply ridiculous.

PS.  get on Yahoo you monkey

[Dfly]

I have a comment then.   (examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5L
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships but loses the 2 D5L,  0 points per team
Team A kills 3 ships but loses only the C7,  Team B gets 3 points

other scenario(examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5W
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships, but lose a single ship,   Team B scores at least 1 point.
Team A loses any other ship,  Team B scores more points.
Team B loses all ships,  no loss of points

Being on Team A, I get to control the area for a while and give up a point or 4, or till the next fleet moves in and attacks.  Then our team gets to lose 1 or more points again to try to control that area for a limited time again.  We win, we control a bit longer till someone else moves in and attacks, or the first group has served their 1/2 hour and are back.  This time say they win the battle, we lose another 5 points and now they control the area.  OR, we see we are losing the battle and dont want to lose even more points and run off.  Team B gets control of that area.

If I was on team A, I would seriously be getting my team to use only .67 cost movement ships not worth any points to control a hex.  You lose, well you are banned from that hex for a bit, but your team does not lose points.  You win, team B is banned from that hex and you dont lose or gain points, just control for a bit, or next battle.

Perhaps it is only me, but that is what I would see happening.  Either that or Team A will have to fly maybe a DNH or better and 2 good CA ships for wings in order to try to control the area.  Even then team B could go kamikaze and try to get one of the ships for points before dying.

Just trying to see if that is what people think will happen is all.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

You do realize your Line CA has as much power as the Kzin BCH, wanna trade BCHs/BCVs?   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

It does have the advantage of simplicity.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I dont like the free suicidal .67 move cost idea at all. When you put a couple .67 move cost or three ships together they can easily take down a DNH. That's why on SGO servers I made them (any size ship, but in this case .67 and I'd recommend going down to .5) worth a point if they were winging together... This will create a nasty imbalance as .67 ships would do things they normally wouldnt do. Totally unrealistic. CL/NCL's dont fly like Kamikazes. I dont like this at all. 

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?     Ever since OP+ intruduced us the the wonderful world of fast cruisers war cruisers have lost their sex appeal.  This gives it back.  Are you seriously afraid people will run amock in a fleets of CWLs?   Yes 3 of them can beat a DN if the DN pilot pulls a "Leroy Jenkins" and flies like an idiot.  They deserve the points if they get the kill.

Think of it this way too, what better way to train newer/returning players in PvP than this?

Look at the old F&E production charts.   The Federation could build 4 CA hulls a years and 24 NCL.  24!!!!  These ships are common, litterally a dime a dozen and they ARE expendable.   An NCL/CW getting whacked really is not that big of a deal to an empire's combat effectiveness.  The specialty ships were more rare and costly hence they are still worth a point when killed.

Whoa!!!  I have to make an exception to this rule.   The F-CS COUNTS as CA and is worht a point when killed.

A middle ground might be possible here, suppose a .67 move cost is not worth anything if killed unless another enemy ship is also killed in the same mission then it becomes worth 1 pt.  So a DN vs 2 CLCs might have a chance at scoring 2 points if it kills them both, but killing just one would net it nothing.

Then again that might just be overly complicated.

[FPF-DieHard]

I have a comment then.   (examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5L
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships but loses the 2 D5L,  0 points per team
Team A kills 3 ships but loses only the C7,  Team B gets 3 points

other scenario(examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5W
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships, but lose a single ship,   Team B scores at least 1 point.
Team A loses any other ship,  Team B scores more points.
Team B loses all ships,  no loss of points

Being on Team A, I get to control the area for a while and give up a point or 4, or till the next fleet moves in and attacks.  Then our team gets to lose 1 or more points again to try to control that area for a limited time again.  We win, we control a bit longer till someone else moves in and attacks, or the first group has served their 1/2 hour and are back.  This time say they win the battle, we lose another 5 points and now they control the area.  OR, we see we are losing the battle and dont want to lose even more points and run off.  Team B gets control of that area.

If I was on team A, I would seriously be getting my team to use only .67 cost movement ships not worth any points to control a hex.  You lose, well you are banned from that hex for a bit, but your team does not lose points.  You win, team B is banned from that hex and you dont lose or gain points, just control for a bit, or next battle.

Perhaps it is only me, but that is what I would see happening.  Either that or Team A will have to fly maybe a DNH or better and 2 good CA ships for wings in order to try to control the area.  Even then team B could go kamikaze and try to get one of the ships for points before dying.

Just trying to see if that is what people think will happen is all.

Team A would use a Big Plasma DN, Iron Duke, or a Battleship with 2 CCHs forcing the CWL fleet off the map until they come back in a fleet capable of winning the battle.   

When you want to control a hex, your bring a gun to a Gunfight.

C7 and 2 D5w?  Come on, it would be C7 with 2 NHK or G-CCH which the CWL fleet would have snowball's chance in hell of beating.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

One other note: 

I didn't notice this written above, but admit I was skimming, I think the ,67 Command/Line ships should be specified not to include any casual tenders/cariers for purposes of VC points.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

C7 and 2 D5w?  Come on, it would be C7 with 2 NHK or G-CCH which the CWL fleet would have snowball's chance in hell of beating.

Or it would be a C7 and 1 D7W with an NHK waiting in the next hex because he didn't move in before the 3 CWLs jumped and drafted them.   

[FPF-DieHard]

One other note: 

I didn't notice this written above, but admit I was skimming, I think the ,67 Command/Line ships should be specified not to include any casual tenders/cariers for purposes of VC points.

Carriers and full tenders are specialty ships and are worth a point when killed.  Casual tenders do not count.   Have you seen how fragile the current PFs are (same as SGO7)?

[FPF-DieHard]

C7 and 2 D5w?  Come on, it would be C7 with 2 NHK or G-CCH which the CWL fleet would have snowball's chance in hell of beating.

Or it would be a C7 and 1 D7W with an NHK waiting in the next hex because he didn't move in before the 3 CWLs jumped and drafted them.   

this is 1000% irrelevant.  Jumped 3v1 it doesn't matter if the ships are worth points are not.   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

this is 1000% irrelevant.  Jumped 3v1 it doesn't matter if the ships are worth points are not.   

That matchup was a 2v3 with 1 side having 4 points at risk with 2 ships and the other having none at risk with 3 ships despite being a matchup that would be interesting.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

One other note: 

I didn't notice this written above, but admit I was skimming, I think the ,67 Command/Line ships should be specified not to include any casual tenders/cariers for purposes of VC points.

Carriers and full tenders are specialty ships and are worth a point when killed.  Casual tenders do not count.   Have you seen how fragile the current PFs are (same as SGO7)?

All PFs are fragile when hit by drones, hard to tell a difference, but I'll take your word for it.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

 

[Dizzy]

I have a comment then.   (examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5L
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Even then team B could go kamikaze and try to get one of the ships for points before dying.

Just trying to see if that is what people think will happen is all.

That will be the nature of PvP with the ruleset for AOTK3. 3x CWL's will go kamikaze and kill at least one CCH. It's not that hard to kill a single enemy ship with 3 CWL's that are totally expendable. The playing field just isnt level here.

I can just hear Dfly saying, well, if we can't control this area, or if we already have enough area under control, hop in 3x CWL's and go kamikaze and try and just get a single kill. He'll tell us CWL's are cheap enough, and your ban time is halved, so if you die no biggie. Hop in anpother CWL and go hunting again Kamikaze style. That's how the server will work. I know that's how Krueg will play it. And for me, I'm not going to bother flying big ships. It's not worth losing the pp when facing chesse fleets of immune CWL's that mean nothing if you kill them. And that cuts the fun out of it for me. I like flying a big ship and engaging multiple players. There often times wont be wingmates available and this ruleset makes this a wing or die server. But when facing more than one smaller opponent that isnt worth a VC point, while I could probably kill them, I'd rather be inclined to just withdraw because there isnt any payoff in staying around. For a server that's claiming to be more PvP oriented, this ruleset is working in the opposite direction.

Another lame tactic will develop, the "Send in the .67 boat anchor!"

[FPF-DieHard]

Did somebody just say CWL cheese fleets?   

Can I get some other people's input on this? 

[KHH_Mrogue]

Just when I thought being hunted in a CL by a BCH/DN was fun!!!!   

My 2 cents worth.  If flown in a fleet, a 0.67 should be worth a point!!

      Fire away DH  lol