Topic: AOTK3: Capital Ships: **EDITED**

[FPF-DieHard]

Post questions, comments, etc . . .

Capital Ships: Battlecruisers, Dreadnoughts, and Battleships:

We will be using the “points at a time system” that was used on AOTK2.   Each side will have 10 Capital ship points that can be fielded at a time (I reserve the right to increase this at any time if the player population suddenly explodes).  Below is the breakdown as to what each ship costs to field:

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

Battleship activation:  All BBs by default will be restricted.  BBs can be unrestricted at the cost of 10 VC points.  Upgrades to a BB (B11K) can be unlocked for an additional 5 VC points.   Each side will start with 10 VC points in the bank to they will be able to unlock at least 1 BB or they can choose to not spend the points to add to their score.

Maximum X Ships on at the same time:


- Each side gets 3 X points in 2281. This is increased to 6 in 2282.  X points are in addition to capital ship points.
- If you fly an X ship, you must rename your ship adding an 'X' at the end of your ship name.

I-CCX/K-C7X = 6
CCX/CAX's/I-CLX = 3
CLX = 2
FFX and DDX =  Free


PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points with flying solo.

[Julin Eurthyr]

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

BCVs (BCHs with full fighter compliments and BPVs approaching BB levels) count the same pointwise as a BCH?

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

Or, charge as many points for a BCV as a ship of comprable BPV - which would honestly (per SFB-math) put most / all of them into BB-territory (without paying for the hull upgrade... )

[FPF-DieHard]

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

BCVs (BCHs with full fighter compliments and BPVs approaching BB levels) count the same pointwise as a BCH?

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

Or, charge as many points for a BCV as a ship of comprable BPV - which would honestly (per SFB-math) put most / all of them into BB-territory (without paying for the hull upgrade... )

BCH/BCV/BCS will be the same.   Remember, the I-CCZ gets some Mech-links in this mod and with the 2 PFs it should be more than a match for a BCV.

[Julin Eurthyr]

BCH/BCV/BCS will be the same.   Remember, the I-CCZ gets some Mech-links in this mod and with the 2 PFs it should be more than a match for a BCV.

On the off chance you haven't noticed, I'm a card-carrying member of the Anti-Fighter League.  Barring a fall back to SFC I days where Hydrans were the only fighter-race, I'm at least part of the "make the carrier pay for what he's getting" movement...

Thing is, no sane pilot with the PP available would choose to buy a stock BCH once the BCVs come out.  Think about it:

• Identical loadouts, except for ISC identical powercurves
• Nearly-identical BPVs in the shiplist / mission matching math
• Easily DNH, more like BB level BPVs / power when done up according to SFB rules
• Costs the team the same either way

Remember, per SFB-math, a 12 pack of SFC-F-18Bs w/fast drones should add 180 BPV to the carrier.  That, alone, is the SFB-BPV cutoff to "qualify" as a BCH.  Nevermind the fully loaded BCH following them in...

I'll take your experience that 2 "unrepairable" (per our rules) I-PFs are a match for the squadron of recallable F-18s...

[FPF-DieHard]

Are you proposing that BCV/BCS ships should cost 3 points?  If we were using SFB fighter loadouts I can see this but I don't think I agree at all that an BCV with 8 fighter can play ball with the DNHs.

You do realizes this is a 30 day server with BCVs only showing in the last 3 days at the most?

[Kruk]

I guess I've been away for too long but a, for a guy like me who likes the BCG/F and now the CX, how does this affects me. Will it cost the moon to get a BCF and later a CX.

I know the CX would be worth some points if I get killed in it, what about the BCF?

[Dizzy]

I dont like the free suicidal .67 move cost idea at all. When you put a couple .67 move cost or three ships together they can easily take down a DNH. That's why on SGO servers I made them (any size ship, but in this case .67 and I'd recommend going down to .5) worth a point if they were winging together... This will create a nasty imbalance as .67 ships would do things they normally wouldnt do. Totally unrealistic. CL/NCL's dont fly like Kamikazes. I dont like this at all. 

[Dizzy]

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

BCVs (BCHs with full fighter compliments and BPVs approaching BB levels) count the same pointwise as a BCH?

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

Or, charge as many points for a BCV as a ship of comprable BPV - which would honestly (per SFB-math) put most / all of them into BB-territory (without paying for the hull upgrade... )

I dont like it that BCV's are the same cost as BCH's. Were all BCH's converted to BCV/T's when they were available or were BCH's still being built? If they were still being built then they should be worth less. If they wernt then they should be phased out if you're gonna class them like that.

[FPF-DieHard]

I guess I've been away for too long but a, for a guy like me who likes the BCG/F and now the CX, how does this affects me. Will it cost the moon to get a BCF and later a CX.

I know the CX would be worth some points if I get killed in it, what about the BCF?

BCF is a BCH, see tha above chart

PP costs will be about 20K for a BCH, 40K for a DN, 100K for a BB.

[FPF-DieHard]

I dont like the free suicidal .67 move cost idea at all. When you put a couple .67 move cost or three ships together they can easily take down a DNH. That's why on SGO servers I made them (any size ship, but in this case .67 and I'd recommend going down to .5) worth a point if they were winging together... This will create a nasty imbalance as .67 ships would do things they normally wouldnt do. Totally unrealistic. CL/NCL's dont fly like Kamikazes. I dont like this at all. 

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?     Ever since OP+ intruduced us the the wonderful world of fast cruisers war cruisers have lost their sex appeal.  This gives it back.  Are you seriously afraid people will run amock in a fleets of CWLs?   Yes 3 of them can beat a DN if the DN pilot pulls a "Leroy Jenkins" and flies like an idiot.  They deserve the points if they get the kill.

Think of it this way too, what better way to train newer/returning players in PvP than this?

Look at the old F&E production charts.   The Federation could build 4 CA hulls a years and 24 NCL.  24!!!!  These ships are common, litterally a dime a dozen and they ARE expendable.   An NCL/CW getting whacked really is not that big of a deal to an empire's combat effectiveness.  The specialty ships were more rare and costly hence they are still worth a point when killed.

Whoa!!!  I have to make an exception to this rule.   The F-CS COUNTS as CA and is worht a point when killed.

[FPF-DieHard]

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

BCVs (BCHs with full fighter compliments and BPVs approaching BB levels) count the same pointwise as a BCH?

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

Or, charge as many points for a BCV as a ship of comprable BPV - which would honestly (per SFB-math) put most / all of them into BB-territory (without paying for the hull upgrade... )

I dont like it that BCV's are the same cost as BCH's. Were all BCH's converted to BCV/T's when they were available or were BCH's still being built? If they were still being built then they should be worth less. If they wernt then they should be phased out if you're gonna class them like that.

It's all relative.   These costs are loosely based on the Federation and Empire costs.  A K-C7 cost 10 economic points to build, a DN was abouty 15, and a CVA with the fighter factors was about 20 (hence the 2, 3, 4) scheme.   Some ships cost more than others, the I-CC serious cost 12 EP (the same as an F-CX) for example, but I'm rounding and averaging for easy math.

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

[FPF-DieHard]

Um, so nobody feels like flaming me for the BB rules?

[Dizzy]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

[Dizzy]

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?   

I applaud your eforts to want to turn the server into a war cruiser server with your ruleset to get players to fly warcruisers again. But I'm sorry to be the one that points out your VC point rules are hugely unfair and unbalanced. It's not right to let 3x D5L's or whatever and I can think of really good hard to beat combos allowed to wing together while the whole fleet of them isnt worth any PvP points. I'm really on the edge of deciding whether or not I'm gonna have fun playing this server if what I fight isnt worth anything. What youy will have are fleets of winging war cruisers running around. So 3x D5D's or 3x MDC's can wing? There isnt a line ship rule for the third ship? And then this whole fleet if entirely destroyed isnt worth any points??? Compound that with big pp costs for larger ships like BC and DN and why bother flying them at all if fleets of drone boats can run amok with impunity? Sheesh.

Again, if you had stated AOTK3 was going to be a war cruiser server, I wouldnt have been as excited about the server as I have been. I'm certainly not very enthused about it anymore.

[Kruk]

I guess I've been away for too long but a, for a guy like me who likes the BCG/F and now the CX, how does this affects me. Will it cost the moon to get a BCF and later a CX.

I know the CX would be worth some points if I get killed in it, what about the BCF?

BCF is a BCH, see tha above chart

PP costs will be about 20K for a BCH, 40K for a DN, 100K for a BB.

Thats a good deal. Reminds me of Rook's tavern prices.

But I have to agree with Dizzy on the BCV being more expansive. Maybe in the 40000 to 50000 with very expansive fighters or pf's. Make people pay in order to fly cheddar.

[FPF-DieHard]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

Um, did you diferentiate between BCH and BCV on SGO?   Ever?      This is practily copied from the last SGO servers.

That's right, nobody actually read those rules!   

I think "worth more points if killed" is worth discussing.  What do you propose?  Should a BCV/BCS be worth as many points killed as a CA X-ship?

Again, you guys do understand that BCVs will MAYBE see 3 days on the server at the most.   if this is the nit that people are picking, I guess the rest of the proposal is okay?

[Dizzy]

I guess I've been away for too long but a, for a guy like me who likes the BCG/F and now the CX, how does this affects me. Will it cost the moon to get a BCF and later a CX.

I know the CX would be worth some points if I get killed in it, what about the BCF?

BCF is a BCH, see tha above chart

PP costs will be about 20K for a BCH, 40K for a DN, 100K for a BB.

Thats a good deal. Reminds me of Rook's tavern prices.

But I have to agree with Dizzy on the BCV being more expansive. Maybe in the 40000 to 50000 with very expansive fighters or pf's. Make people pay in order to fly cheddar.

BCV class structure cant be reset easily. Entire classes would need to be redone in the shiplist to reprice BCH and BCV prices using CARRIER and BATTLE_CRUISER class types. Besides, big pp ship costs just favor nutters. Screws casual players out of having fun flying big ships, but the way the rules are written it looks like that wont be a problem.

[FPF-DieHard]

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?   

I applaud your eforts to want to turn the server into a war cruiser server with your ruleset to get players to fly warcruisers again. But I'm sorry to be the one that points out your VC point rules are hugely unfair and unbalanced. It's not right to let 3x D5L's or whatever and I can think of really good hard to beat combos allowed to wing together while the whole fleet of them isnt worth any PvP points. I'm really on the edge of deciding whether or not I'm gonna have fun playing this server if what I fight isnt worth anything. What youy will have are fleets of winging war cruisers running around. So 3x D5D's or 3x MDC's can wing? There isnt a line ship rule for the third ship? And then this whole fleet if entirely destroyed isnt worth any points??? Compound that with big pp costs for larger ships like BC and DN and why bother flying them at all if fleets of drone boats can run amok with impunity? Sheesh.

Again, if you had stated AOTK3 was going to be a war cruiser server, I wouldnt have been as excited about the server as I have been. I'm certainly not very enthused about it anymore.

Stop smoking crak 

Where the hell do you gets that a D5D is not worth points?   I know you don't actually read your own rules but please read mine before you make ridiculous statements.

SPECIALTY SHIPS ARE ALWAYS WORTH VC POINTS WHEN KILLED

The Fleeting rules posted the other day stated that the thrid ship in a Fleet has to be line/command.  I'm posting the rules is stages for community review so people actually read them.

[Dizzy]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

Um, did you diferentiate between BCH and BCV on SGO?   Ever?      This is practily copied from the last SGO servers.

That's right, nobody actually read those rules!   

Yeah they did cuz the VC points were seperate like this:

BCV/T - Carrier, Casual (2 PF's) or Full Tender (3+ PF's):  4  (1 and 1.25 move cost)
BC/H:  3  (1 and 1.25 move cost) (Includes all Lyran BC's with 2 PF's)[/list]

[FPF-DieHard]

I edited the rule so it is more clearly understood.  I see how it could be confusing from how it was worded.

Please ask for a clarification before typing a long winded rant that turns out to be BS.