Topic: AOTK3: Capital Ships: **EDITED**

[FPF-DieHard]

Post questions, comments, etc . . .

Capital Ships: Battlecruisers, Dreadnoughts, and Battleships:

We will be using the “points at a time system” that was used on AOTK2.   Each side will have 10 Capital ship points that can be fielded at a time (I reserve the right to increase this at any time if the player population suddenly explodes).  Below is the breakdown as to what each ship costs to field:

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

Battleship activation:  All BBs by default will be restricted.  BBs can be unrestricted at the cost of 10 VC points.  Upgrades to a BB (B11K) can be unlocked for an additional 5 VC points.   Each side will start with 10 VC points in the bank to they will be able to unlock at least 1 BB or they can choose to not spend the points to add to their score.

Maximum X Ships on at the same time:


- Each side gets 3 X points in 2281. This is increased to 6 in 2282.  X points are in addition to capital ship points.
- If you fly an X ship, you must rename your ship adding an 'X' at the end of your ship name.

I-CCX/K-C7X = 6
CCX/CAX's/I-CLX = 3
CLX = 2
FFX and DDX =  Free


PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points with flying solo.

[Julin Eurthyr]

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

BCVs (BCHs with full fighter compliments and BPVs approaching BB levels) count the same pointwise as a BCH?

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

Or, charge as many points for a BCV as a ship of comprable BPV - which would honestly (per SFB-math) put most / all of them into BB-territory (without paying for the hull upgrade... )

[FPF-DieHard]

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

BCVs (BCHs with full fighter compliments and BPVs approaching BB levels) count the same pointwise as a BCH?

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

Or, charge as many points for a BCV as a ship of comprable BPV - which would honestly (per SFB-math) put most / all of them into BB-territory (without paying for the hull upgrade... )

BCH/BCV/BCS will be the same.   Remember, the I-CCZ gets some Mech-links in this mod and with the 2 PFs it should be more than a match for a BCV.

[Julin Eurthyr]

BCH/BCV/BCS will be the same.   Remember, the I-CCZ gets some Mech-links in this mod and with the 2 PFs it should be more than a match for a BCV.

On the off chance you haven't noticed, I'm a card-carrying member of the Anti-Fighter League.  Barring a fall back to SFC I days where Hydrans were the only fighter-race, I'm at least part of the "make the carrier pay for what he's getting" movement...

Thing is, no sane pilot with the PP available would choose to buy a stock BCH once the BCVs come out.  Think about it:

• Identical loadouts, except for ISC identical powercurves
• Nearly-identical BPVs in the shiplist / mission matching math
• Easily DNH, more like BB level BPVs / power when done up according to SFB rules
• Costs the team the same either way

Remember, per SFB-math, a 12 pack of SFC-F-18Bs w/fast drones should add 180 BPV to the carrier.  That, alone, is the SFB-BPV cutoff to "qualify" as a BCH.  Nevermind the fully loaded BCH following them in...

I'll take your experience that 2 "unrepairable" (per our rules) I-PFs are a match for the squadron of recallable F-18s...

[FPF-DieHard]

Are you proposing that BCV/BCS ships should cost 3 points?  If we were using SFB fighter loadouts I can see this but I don't think I agree at all that an BCV with 8 fighter can play ball with the DNHs.

You do realizes this is a 30 day server with BCVs only showing in the last 3 days at the most?

[Kruk]

I guess I've been away for too long but a, for a guy like me who likes the BCG/F and now the CX, how does this affects me. Will it cost the moon to get a BCF and later a CX.

I know the CX would be worth some points if I get killed in it, what about the BCF?

[Dizzy]

I dont like the free suicidal .67 move cost idea at all. When you put a couple .67 move cost or three ships together they can easily take down a DNH. That's why on SGO servers I made them (any size ship, but in this case .67 and I'd recommend going down to .5) worth a point if they were winging together... This will create a nasty imbalance as .67 ships would do things they normally wouldnt do. Totally unrealistic. CL/NCL's dont fly like Kamikazes. I dont like this at all. 

[Dizzy]

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

BCVs (BCHs with full fighter compliments and BPVs approaching BB levels) count the same pointwise as a BCH?

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

Or, charge as many points for a BCV as a ship of comprable BPV - which would honestly (per SFB-math) put most / all of them into BB-territory (without paying for the hull upgrade... )

I dont like it that BCV's are the same cost as BCH's. Were all BCH's converted to BCV/T's when they were available or were BCH's still being built? If they were still being built then they should be worth less. If they wernt then they should be phased out if you're gonna class them like that.

[FPF-DieHard]

I guess I've been away for too long but a, for a guy like me who likes the BCG/F and now the CX, how does this affects me. Will it cost the moon to get a BCF and later a CX.

I know the CX would be worth some points if I get killed in it, what about the BCF?

BCF is a BCH, see tha above chart

PP costs will be about 20K for a BCH, 40K for a DN, 100K for a BB.

[FPF-DieHard]

I dont like the free suicidal .67 move cost idea at all. When you put a couple .67 move cost or three ships together they can easily take down a DNH. That's why on SGO servers I made them (any size ship, but in this case .67 and I'd recommend going down to .5) worth a point if they were winging together... This will create a nasty imbalance as .67 ships would do things they normally wouldnt do. Totally unrealistic. CL/NCL's dont fly like Kamikazes. I dont like this at all. 

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?     Ever since OP+ intruduced us the the wonderful world of fast cruisers war cruisers have lost their sex appeal.  This gives it back.  Are you seriously afraid people will run amock in a fleets of CWLs?   Yes 3 of them can beat a DN if the DN pilot pulls a "Leroy Jenkins" and flies like an idiot.  They deserve the points if they get the kill.

Think of it this way too, what better way to train newer/returning players in PvP than this?

Look at the old F&E production charts.   The Federation could build 4 CA hulls a years and 24 NCL.  24!!!!  These ships are common, litterally a dime a dozen and they ARE expendable.   An NCL/CW getting whacked really is not that big of a deal to an empire's combat effectiveness.  The specialty ships were more rare and costly hence they are still worth a point when killed.

Whoa!!!  I have to make an exception to this rule.   The F-CS COUNTS as CA and is worht a point when killed.

[FPF-DieHard]

BCH/BCV:     2 Points
DN:      3 Points
CVA:      4 Points  (includes the F-DVL)
BB:      8 Points
Super BB:   10 Points (B11K)

BCVs (BCHs with full fighter compliments and BPVs approaching BB levels) count the same pointwise as a BCH?

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

Or, charge as many points for a BCV as a ship of comprable BPV - which would honestly (per SFB-math) put most / all of them into BB-territory (without paying for the hull upgrade... )

I dont like it that BCV's are the same cost as BCH's. Were all BCH's converted to BCV/T's when they were available or were BCH's still being built? If they were still being built then they should be worth less. If they wernt then they should be phased out if you're gonna class them like that.

It's all relative.   These costs are loosely based on the Federation and Empire costs.  A K-C7 cost 10 economic points to build, a DN was abouty 15, and a CVA with the fighter factors was about 20 (hence the 2, 3, 4) scheme.   Some ships cost more than others, the I-CC serious cost 12 EP (the same as an F-CX) for example, but I'm rounding and averaging for easy math.

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

[FPF-DieHard]

Um, so nobody feels like flaming me for the BB rules?

[Dizzy]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

[Dizzy]

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?   

I applaud your eforts to want to turn the server into a war cruiser server with your ruleset to get players to fly warcruisers again. But I'm sorry to be the one that points out your VC point rules are hugely unfair and unbalanced. It's not right to let 3x D5L's or whatever and I can think of really good hard to beat combos allowed to wing together while the whole fleet of them isnt worth any PvP points. I'm really on the edge of deciding whether or not I'm gonna have fun playing this server if what I fight isnt worth anything. What youy will have are fleets of winging war cruisers running around. So 3x D5D's or 3x MDC's can wing? There isnt a line ship rule for the third ship? And then this whole fleet if entirely destroyed isnt worth any points??? Compound that with big pp costs for larger ships like BC and DN and why bother flying them at all if fleets of drone boats can run amok with impunity? Sheesh.

Again, if you had stated AOTK3 was going to be a war cruiser server, I wouldnt have been as excited about the server as I have been. I'm certainly not very enthused about it anymore.

[Kruk]

I guess I've been away for too long but a, for a guy like me who likes the BCG/F and now the CX, how does this affects me. Will it cost the moon to get a BCF and later a CX.

I know the CX would be worth some points if I get killed in it, what about the BCF?

BCF is a BCH, see tha above chart

PP costs will be about 20K for a BCH, 40K for a DN, 100K for a BB.

Thats a good deal. Reminds me of Rook's tavern prices.

But I have to agree with Dizzy on the BCV being more expansive. Maybe in the 40000 to 50000 with very expansive fighters or pf's. Make people pay in order to fly cheddar.

[FPF-DieHard]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

Um, did you diferentiate between BCH and BCV on SGO?   Ever?      This is practily copied from the last SGO servers.

That's right, nobody actually read those rules!   

I think "worth more points if killed" is worth discussing.  What do you propose?  Should a BCV/BCS be worth as many points killed as a CA X-ship?

Again, you guys do understand that BCVs will MAYBE see 3 days on the server at the most.   if this is the nit that people are picking, I guess the rest of the proposal is okay?

[Dizzy]

I guess I've been away for too long but a, for a guy like me who likes the BCG/F and now the CX, how does this affects me. Will it cost the moon to get a BCF and later a CX.

I know the CX would be worth some points if I get killed in it, what about the BCF?

BCF is a BCH, see tha above chart

PP costs will be about 20K for a BCH, 40K for a DN, 100K for a BB.

Thats a good deal. Reminds me of Rook's tavern prices.

But I have to agree with Dizzy on the BCV being more expansive. Maybe in the 40000 to 50000 with very expansive fighters or pf's. Make people pay in order to fly cheddar.

BCV class structure cant be reset easily. Entire classes would need to be redone in the shiplist to reprice BCH and BCV prices using CARRIER and BATTLE_CRUISER class types. Besides, big pp ship costs just favor nutters. Screws casual players out of having fun flying big ships, but the way the rules are written it looks like that wont be a problem.

[FPF-DieHard]

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?   

I applaud your eforts to want to turn the server into a war cruiser server with your ruleset to get players to fly warcruisers again. But I'm sorry to be the one that points out your VC point rules are hugely unfair and unbalanced. It's not right to let 3x D5L's or whatever and I can think of really good hard to beat combos allowed to wing together while the whole fleet of them isnt worth any PvP points. I'm really on the edge of deciding whether or not I'm gonna have fun playing this server if what I fight isnt worth anything. What youy will have are fleets of winging war cruisers running around. So 3x D5D's or 3x MDC's can wing? There isnt a line ship rule for the third ship? And then this whole fleet if entirely destroyed isnt worth any points??? Compound that with big pp costs for larger ships like BC and DN and why bother flying them at all if fleets of drone boats can run amok with impunity? Sheesh.

Again, if you had stated AOTK3 was going to be a war cruiser server, I wouldnt have been as excited about the server as I have been. I'm certainly not very enthused about it anymore.

Stop smoking crak 

Where the hell do you gets that a D5D is not worth points?   I know you don't actually read your own rules but please read mine before you make ridiculous statements.

SPECIALTY SHIPS ARE ALWAYS WORTH VC POINTS WHEN KILLED

The Fleeting rules posted the other day stated that the thrid ship in a Fleet has to be line/command.  I'm posting the rules is stages for community review so people actually read them.

[Dizzy]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

Um, did you diferentiate between BCH and BCV on SGO?   Ever?      This is practily copied from the last SGO servers.

That's right, nobody actually read those rules!   

Yeah they did cuz the VC points were seperate like this:

BCV/T - Carrier, Casual (2 PF's) or Full Tender (3+ PF's):  4  (1 and 1.25 move cost)
BC/H:  3  (1 and 1.25 move cost) (Includes all Lyran BC's with 2 PF's)[/list]

[FPF-DieHard]

I edited the rule so it is more clearly understood.  I see how it could be confusing from how it was worded.

Please ask for a clarification before typing a long winded rant that turns out to be BS.

[FPF-DieHard]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

Um, did you diferentiate between BCH and BCV on SGO?   Ever?      This is practily copied from the last SGO servers.

That's right, nobody actually read those rules!   

Yeah they did cuz the VC points were seperate like this:

BCV/T - Carrier, Casual (2 PF's) or Full Tender (3+ PF's):  4  (1 and 1.25 move cost)
BC/H:  3  (1 and 1.25 move cost) (Includes all Lyran BC's with 2 PF's)[/list]

I think a BCH/BCS (not the 2 PF Mech link variant) should be worht as many points as a CX.   This is a reasonable suggestion, I will make the change.

[Dizzy]

I edited the rule so it is more clearly understood.  I see how it could be confusing from how it was worded.

Please ask for a clarification before typing a long winded rant that turns out to be BS.

What did you reword? BCH is still worth 5 points while two CLC's or D5L's which can kill a BCH are worth NOTHING. That is BS. And I dont see that being long winded. Are BCH's less expensive pp wise than war cruisers which operate with impunity? If that's the case I'll get reinterested in this war-cruiser server of yours.

[FPF-DieHard]

I edited the rule so it is more clearly understood.  I see how it could be confusing from how it was worded.

Please ask for a clarification before typing a long winded rant that turns out to be BS.

What did you reword? BCH is still worth 5 points while two CLC's or D5L's which can kill a BCH are worth NOTHING. That is BS. And I dont see that being long winded. Are BCH's less expensive pp wise than war cruisers which operate with impunity? If that's the case I'll get reinterested in this war-cruiser server of yours.

You are honestly afraid people will run amock in CWLs? 

There is still a disengagment rule, people will still throw together ships centered areound cruisers and larger ships to control the important hexes.  War cruisers will still be out-gunned in most situations and people will spend most of their time in bigger ships.  Hex-munchers will still be ain D5Ds and DWDs which are worth points when killed. 

[Dizzy]

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?   

I applaud your eforts to want to turn the server into a war cruiser server with your ruleset to get players to fly warcruisers again. But I'm sorry to be the one that points out your VC point rules are hugely unfair and unbalanced. It's not right to let 3x D5L's or whatever and I can think of really good hard to beat combos allowed to wing together while the whole fleet of them isnt worth any PvP points. I'm really on the edge of deciding whether or not I'm gonna have fun playing this server if what I fight isnt worth anything. What youy will have are fleets of winging war cruisers running around. So 3x D5D's or 3x MDC's can wing? There isnt a line ship rule for the third ship? And then this whole fleet if entirely destroyed isnt worth any points??? Compound that with big pp costs for larger ships like BC and DN and why bother flying them at all if fleets of drone boats can run amok with impunity? Sheesh.

Again, if you had stated AOTK3 was going to be a war cruiser server, I wouldnt have been as excited about the server as I have been. I'm certainly not very enthused about it anymore.

Stop smoking crak 

Where the hell do you gets that a D5D is not worth points?   I know you don't actually read your own rules but please read mine before you make ridiculous statements.

SPECIALTY SHIPS ARE ALWAYS WORTH VC POINTS WHEN KILLED

The Fleeting rules posted the other day stated that the thrid ship in a Fleet has to be line/command.  I'm posting the rules is stages for community review so people actually read them.

Ok sorry bout that, so one of the ships has to be a line, okies. But still, a D5L and 2x D5D's should be worth more than NOTHING. Look, I dont want to be an ass here and argue with you about your server, but I'll probably not be playing it in its current form, (But I will completely 100% assist you with the map or anything not related to playing, you have my complete support and help). I know you couldnt care less, but I see such a PvP disparity the way the VC points are worked. Please consider closing the gap. Lower the BCH VC or consider war cruisers worth points.

Here's my idea. Since you want so badly to have a war cruiser server then what about lowering BCH VC points to 3 and saying that if 2 of the three war cruisers are killed then u get a point? That way they wont be completely expendable.The rule would need more clarification when a war cruise wings with something else. My idea is to counter your completely suicidal tactics ruleset, in which you know as well as I that I fly completely differently as a player when I know my ship is expendable and wont hurt my team if I die and I think others will too. I dont like those kinda PvP games, to be honest, qlthough I do find it easier to kill people playing that style. But you have to close the gap between war cruisers and everything else.

EDIT: My besat idea: Maybe inflate all the VC points upward a bit and give the war cruisrs a 1 cost. So the ratio was 24 to 4? That's 6 to 1. So war cruisrs are worth 1 and BCH 6?

[FPF-DieHard]

EDIT: My besat idea: Maybe inflate all the VC points upward a bit and give the war cruisrs a 1 cost. So the ratio was 24 to 4? That's 6 to 1. So war cruisrs are worth 1 and BCH 6?

4 CAs per year.   They could only build 1 BCH so that ratio does not work.

I really think you a grossly over-reacting on this.  It is mind-boggling that anyone thinks people will run amock in CWLs, simply ridiculous.

PS.  get on Yahoo you monkey

[Dfly]

I have a comment then.   (examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5L
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships but loses the 2 D5L,  0 points per team
Team A kills 3 ships but loses only the C7,  Team B gets 3 points

other scenario(examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5W
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships, but lose a single ship,   Team B scores at least 1 point.
Team A loses any other ship,  Team B scores more points.
Team B loses all ships,  no loss of points

Being on Team A, I get to control the area for a while and give up a point or 4, or till the next fleet moves in and attacks.  Then our team gets to lose 1 or more points again to try to control that area for a limited time again.  We win, we control a bit longer till someone else moves in and attacks, or the first group has served their 1/2 hour and are back.  This time say they win the battle, we lose another 5 points and now they control the area.  OR, we see we are losing the battle and dont want to lose even more points and run off.  Team B gets control of that area.

If I was on team A, I would seriously be getting my team to use only .67 cost movement ships not worth any points to control a hex.  You lose, well you are banned from that hex for a bit, but your team does not lose points.  You win, team B is banned from that hex and you dont lose or gain points, just control for a bit, or next battle.

Perhaps it is only me, but that is what I would see happening.  Either that or Team A will have to fly maybe a DNH or better and 2 good CA ships for wings in order to try to control the area.  Even then team B could go kamikaze and try to get one of the ships for points before dying.

Just trying to see if that is what people think will happen is all.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

You do realize your Line CA has as much power as the Kzin BCH, wanna trade BCHs/BCVs?   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Yes the BCVs cost more than the BCHs, but their is no whole number between 2 and 3 and I don't like fractions.   

Then the VC points should reflect this. Some like flying BCH's and dont prefer the cheddar cheese flavor of BCHV/T. It's like your rules are forcing people to fly cheddar and I dont like that. Give them the option. Also u made no mention of PF's casual or otherwise. I dont like this rule at all the way u have it. I really find it utterly distasteful.

It does have the advantage of simplicity.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I dont like the free suicidal .67 move cost idea at all. When you put a couple .67 move cost or three ships together they can easily take down a DNH. That's why on SGO servers I made them (any size ship, but in this case .67 and I'd recommend going down to .5) worth a point if they were winging together... This will create a nasty imbalance as .67 ships would do things they normally wouldnt do. Totally unrealistic. CL/NCL's dont fly like Kamikazes. I dont like this at all. 

You mean people might ACTUALLY fly war cruisers again?     Ever since OP+ intruduced us the the wonderful world of fast cruisers war cruisers have lost their sex appeal.  This gives it back.  Are you seriously afraid people will run amock in a fleets of CWLs?   Yes 3 of them can beat a DN if the DN pilot pulls a "Leroy Jenkins" and flies like an idiot.  They deserve the points if they get the kill.

Think of it this way too, what better way to train newer/returning players in PvP than this?

Look at the old F&E production charts.   The Federation could build 4 CA hulls a years and 24 NCL.  24!!!!  These ships are common, litterally a dime a dozen and they ARE expendable.   An NCL/CW getting whacked really is not that big of a deal to an empire's combat effectiveness.  The specialty ships were more rare and costly hence they are still worth a point when killed.

Whoa!!!  I have to make an exception to this rule.   The F-CS COUNTS as CA and is worht a point when killed.

A middle ground might be possible here, suppose a .67 move cost is not worth anything if killed unless another enemy ship is also killed in the same mission then it becomes worth 1 pt.  So a DN vs 2 CLCs might have a chance at scoring 2 points if it kills them both, but killing just one would net it nothing.

Then again that might just be overly complicated.

[FPF-DieHard]

I have a comment then.   (examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5L
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships but loses the 2 D5L,  0 points per team
Team A kills 3 ships but loses only the C7,  Team B gets 3 points

other scenario(examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5W
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships, but lose a single ship,   Team B scores at least 1 point.
Team A loses any other ship,  Team B scores more points.
Team B loses all ships,  no loss of points

Being on Team A, I get to control the area for a while and give up a point or 4, or till the next fleet moves in and attacks.  Then our team gets to lose 1 or more points again to try to control that area for a limited time again.  We win, we control a bit longer till someone else moves in and attacks, or the first group has served their 1/2 hour and are back.  This time say they win the battle, we lose another 5 points and now they control the area.  OR, we see we are losing the battle and dont want to lose even more points and run off.  Team B gets control of that area.

If I was on team A, I would seriously be getting my team to use only .67 cost movement ships not worth any points to control a hex.  You lose, well you are banned from that hex for a bit, but your team does not lose points.  You win, team B is banned from that hex and you dont lose or gain points, just control for a bit, or next battle.

Perhaps it is only me, but that is what I would see happening.  Either that or Team A will have to fly maybe a DNH or better and 2 good CA ships for wings in order to try to control the area.  Even then team B could go kamikaze and try to get one of the ships for points before dying.

Just trying to see if that is what people think will happen is all.

Team A would use a Big Plasma DN, Iron Duke, or a Battleship with 2 CCHs forcing the CWL fleet off the map until they come back in a fleet capable of winning the battle.   

When you want to control a hex, your bring a gun to a Gunfight.

C7 and 2 D5w?  Come on, it would be C7 with 2 NHK or G-CCH which the CWL fleet would have snowball's chance in hell of beating.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

One other note: 

I didn't notice this written above, but admit I was skimming, I think the ,67 Command/Line ships should be specified not to include any casual tenders/cariers for purposes of VC points.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

C7 and 2 D5w?  Come on, it would be C7 with 2 NHK or G-CCH which the CWL fleet would have snowball's chance in hell of beating.

Or it would be a C7 and 1 D7W with an NHK waiting in the next hex because he didn't move in before the 3 CWLs jumped and drafted them.   

[FPF-DieHard]

One other note: 

I didn't notice this written above, but admit I was skimming, I think the ,67 Command/Line ships should be specified not to include any casual tenders/cariers for purposes of VC points.

Carriers and full tenders are specialty ships and are worth a point when killed.  Casual tenders do not count.   Have you seen how fragile the current PFs are (same as SGO7)?

[FPF-DieHard]

C7 and 2 D5w?  Come on, it would be C7 with 2 NHK or G-CCH which the CWL fleet would have snowball's chance in hell of beating.

Or it would be a C7 and 1 D7W with an NHK waiting in the next hex because he didn't move in before the 3 CWLs jumped and drafted them.   

this is 1000% irrelevant.  Jumped 3v1 it doesn't matter if the ships are worth points are not.   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

this is 1000% irrelevant.  Jumped 3v1 it doesn't matter if the ships are worth points are not.   

That matchup was a 2v3 with 1 side having 4 points at risk with 2 ships and the other having none at risk with 3 ships despite being a matchup that would be interesting.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

One other note: 

I didn't notice this written above, but admit I was skimming, I think the ,67 Command/Line ships should be specified not to include any casual tenders/cariers for purposes of VC points.

Carriers and full tenders are specialty ships and are worth a point when killed.  Casual tenders do not count.   Have you seen how fragile the current PFs are (same as SGO7)?

All PFs are fragile when hit by drones, hard to tell a difference, but I'll take your word for it.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

 

[Dizzy]

I have a comment then.   (examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5L
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Even then team B could go kamikaze and try to get one of the ships for points before dying.

Just trying to see if that is what people think will happen is all.

That will be the nature of PvP with the ruleset for AOTK3. 3x CWL's will go kamikaze and kill at least one CCH. It's not that hard to kill a single enemy ship with 3 CWL's that are totally expendable. The playing field just isnt level here.

I can just hear Dfly saying, well, if we can't control this area, or if we already have enough area under control, hop in 3x CWL's and go kamikaze and try and just get a single kill. He'll tell us CWL's are cheap enough, and your ban time is halved, so if you die no biggie. Hop in anpother CWL and go hunting again Kamikaze style. That's how the server will work. I know that's how Krueg will play it. And for me, I'm not going to bother flying big ships. It's not worth losing the pp when facing chesse fleets of immune CWL's that mean nothing if you kill them. And that cuts the fun out of it for me. I like flying a big ship and engaging multiple players. There often times wont be wingmates available and this ruleset makes this a wing or die server. But when facing more than one smaller opponent that isnt worth a VC point, while I could probably kill them, I'd rather be inclined to just withdraw because there isnt any payoff in staying around. For a server that's claiming to be more PvP oriented, this ruleset is working in the opposite direction.

Another lame tactic will develop, the "Send in the .67 boat anchor!"

[FPF-DieHard]

Did somebody just say CWL cheese fleets?   

Can I get some other people's input on this? 

[KHH_Mrogue]

Just when I thought being hunted in a CL by a BCH/DN was fun!!!!   

My 2 cents worth.  If flown in a fleet, a 0.67 should be worth a point!!

      Fire away DH  lol 

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Another lame tactic will develop, the "Send in the .67 boat anchor!"   -Dizzy-


Being lame minded, this is the first tactic that popped into mind when this debate started.

I seem to recall in the not too distant past the art of 3 guys jumping a solo player that brought much frustration and cries about hunting packs, thus always grab a wing became the mantra which isn't always possible.

At any rate, what Mrogue said should be the minimum. 3 - 0.67 ships show up, they are worth at least a point.

[GDA-Agave]

I have to somewhat agree with Dizzy on this.  I think that removing any PvP kill points for most ships (not speciality) CL class or smaller is bad. (m'kay)  It will encourage kamikaze style flying in those pilots.   This same thing happened on one of the General War servers.  I don't remember what class of ship, but the majority of pilots flying those just kamikazed when caught by an opponent so that they could take advantage of the smaller disengagement penalty for being killed instead of disengaging.   This one trend really ruined my enthusiasm for that server.

All ships should have some point value for being killed in PvP.  Even if it's just a 1/2 point.  It might discourage kamikazing type tactics for most pilots if they know they are hurting their team's PvP VC count, even if it by just a little.

How about this?  Make a rule that makes the disengagement rule penalty for non-speciality ships of CL class or smaller the same for both being killed or disengaging.  Pilots would realize that if they are outgunned there would not be any advantage gained by them for kamikazing their ship at the larger opponent.  This makes great sense to me.

[GDA-Agave]

Another lame tactic will develop, the "Send in the .67 boat anchor!"

This tactic will always be used when the smaller ship anchor, if lost, will give up less PvP points than the ship it is attacking.  Point is, if the "anchor" escort gets killed which it usually does, their opponents should get whatever PvP points to help offset the PvP points they just lost.  And/or this might just make those pilots attempting this tactic to be a little more wise about when and where they attempt it so that they are not just giving up points and not getting the big kill.   

[Dizzy]

I have to somewhat agree with Dizzy on this.  I think that removing any PvP kill points for most ships (not speciality) CL class or smaller is bad. (m'kay)  It will encourage kamikaze style flying in those pilots.   This same thing happened on one of the General War servers.  I don't remember what class of ship, but the majority of pilots flying those just kamikazed when caught by an opponent so that they could take advantage of the smaller disengagement penalty for being killed instead of disengaging.   This one trend really ruined my enthusiasm for that server.

Ahh, well said and best spoken from experience.

[FPF-DieHard]

My 2 cents worth.  If flown in a fleet, a 0.67 should be worth a point!!

What about CW/CWLs are worth 1 point each when flying in a fleet of 3?  Solo or in a fleet of 2 they are still worth nothing.

[FPF-DieHard]

Also, does anyone have anything to say about stuff besides the War Cruiser rule?

[The_Joker]

Personally, I kind of think this.  Any pilot killed in enemy territory should count as a point.  They chose to fly in there and it shouldn't matter what ship they are flying when they do it.

I don't know how complicated it would be, but I'd make any ship flown by a living person at least one point and double it if they are killed in enemy territory since they are there of their own volition.

[Dizzy]

My 2 cents worth.  If flown in a fleet, a 0.67 should be worth a point!!

What about CW/CWLs are worth 1 point each when flying in a fleet of 3?  Solo or in a fleet of 2 they are still worth nothing.

Why are you trying to give CWL's a blank check to cash on this server? What's really wrong with them being worth 1 point each. CA's worth 2 and BC's worth 6 and so on? Keep a little balance, would ya?


Edit: btw, Z-DW's are your generic brand cheap liquor and 3 of them running in packs with impunity will be a scary sight to see... I'll do it too!

Ummm, question, are HDW's considered special?

[Dizzy]

Here's another problem with your ruleset. We are gonna be flying in battle and having a discussion of whether to even fire at someone flying a .67 ship if there is another one that's worth points. And then you gotta worry about the kamikaze boat anchor. Ridiculous. It's gonna add dynamics to a PvP fight that are just dumb. I don't have fun in those sorta fights. Why even add this dilema to the battle? It's stupid. Just slap a one point sticker price to CWL's and we can all move on to flame you about something else. Other than this...

I still think you need to setup a different VC tier for BCH vs BCV/T. They shouldnt be worth the same. And what of casual PF's? I dont think this got addressed formally.

And I see no issue with your weird idea of how to field BB's. I'm all for trying that.

[FPF-DieHard]

Ummm, question, are HDW's considered special?

Absolutely yes!

[FPF-DieHard]

What about this . . .

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

[Dfly]

What about this . . .

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

I love it.  I was actulally going to propose this sort of idea.  Not sure on the points being right, but so far I think it is great.  You even added the BCH/BCV differential, nice.   I would totally agree on this.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Battleship activation:  All BBs by default will be restricted.  BBs can be unrestricted at the cost of 10 VC points.  Upgrades to a BB (B11K) can be unlocked for an additional 5 VC points.   Each side will start with 10 VC points in the bank to they will be able to unlock at least 1 BB or they can choose to not spend the points to add to their score.

By "restricted" you mean unavailable in the yards?
And do you really think the B11K is such a bad ass that it needs 5 additional points to even activate?
Having it use up 100% of the capitol ships points is one thing, but, IMOP it isn't a "Super" BB as it's name implies.
It's more like competitive with the other races BBs that "Historically" were developed after the B-10, pretty much making the B-10 obsolete.
The B-10 is supreme when it comes out in 2273, far ahead of the other BBs (as the "Historical" timelines go), but, as other races come out with their own BBs, it's quickly outclassed.
And that includes the B-10K, too.
Match the B11K vs the Fed BB (which, by "Historical" timelines came out very late), you'll see what I mean.

[Dfly]

I have to agree with Krueg there.

[FPF-DieHard]

I have to agree with Krueg there.

If the Opposing RM has no issue, then neither do I.  I'll reword it sometime tonight.

you guys wanna add the BBVs?   

[FPF-DieHard]

Match the B11K vs the Fed BB (which, by "Historical" timelines came out very late), you'll see what I mean.

Though I'm yeilding the point because the Ktty RM does not object, I still don't know how you can say the Fed BB and the B11K are in the same weight class.   The I-BBVZ on the other hand is a monster.


Designation: F-BB
BPV: 337
Crew: 82
Marines: 26
Shield 1: 68
Shield 2 & 6: 45
Shield 3 & 5: 45
Shield 4: 45
Total Shields: 293

Movement Cost: 2
Turn Mode: F
Total Warp Power: 60
Impulse Power: 6
Aux Power: 12
Total Engine Power: 66
Battery: 12

Transporters: 8
Tractors: 5
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 6
Fighters: 6

10x Photon
6x Missle Rack B
3x Missle Rack G
15x Phaser 1
3x Phaser G
3x ADD 6


Designation: K-B11K
BPV: 403
Crew: 81
Marines: 32
Shield 1: 74
Shield 2 & 6: 51
Shield 3 & 5: 51
Shield 4: 51
Total Shields: 329

Movement Cost: 2
Turn Mode: E
Total Warp Power: 60
Impulse Power: 17
Aux Power: 6
Total Engine Power: 77
Battery: 12

Transporters: 12
Tractors: 5
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 6
Fighters: 8

10x Disruptor 4
8x Missle Rack B
19x Phaser 1
6x Phaser 3
4x ADD 12

[KBFLordKrueg]

I have to agree with Krueg there.

If the Opposing RM has no issue, then neither do I.  I'll reword it sometime tonight.

you guys wanna add the BBVs?   

IMO...I don't see the need.
If used, they should cost more capitol ship points than BBs however, not to even mention the obvious greater PP cost.
But, If Dfly wants them included, I have no real objections.

[Dfly]

DH you have an error in the list for the Fed BB.  Here is what you have listed (copied here from post above)

Movement Cost: 2
Turn Mode: F
Total Warp Power: 60
Impulse Power: 6
Aux Power: 12
Total Engine Power: 66
Battery: 12

The total engine power is not 66 as you did not add the Aux Power.  It should read 78.  That would put it 1 power over the Klingon one, though not a big difference.

[Dfly]

I dont really care to have the BBVs involved myself.

[Dfly]

I have a comment then.   (examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5L
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships but loses the 2 D5L,  0 points per team
Team A kills 3 ships but loses only the C7,  Team B gets 3 points

other scenario(examples only)

Team A is flying 1 C7 and 2 D5W
Team B is flying 3 CWLPp

Team A kills 3 ships,  0 points
Team A kills 3 ships, but lose a single ship,   Team B scores at least 1 point.
Team A loses any other ship,  Team B scores more points.
Team B loses all ships,  no loss of points

Being on Team A, I get to control the area for a while and give up a point or 4, or till the next fleet moves in and attacks.  Then our team gets to lose 1 or more points again to try to control that area for a limited time again.  We win, we control a bit longer till someone else moves in and attacks, or the first group has served their 1/2 hour and are back.  This time say they win the battle, we lose another 5 points and now they control the area.  OR, we see we are losing the battle and dont want to lose even more points and run off.  Team B gets control of that area.

If I was on team A, I would seriously be getting my team to use only .67 cost movement ships not worth any points to control a hex.  You lose, well you are banned from that hex for a bit, but your team does not lose points.  You win, team B is banned from that hex and you dont lose or gain points, just control for a bit, or next battle.

Perhaps it is only me, but that is what I would see happening.  Either that or Team A will have to fly maybe a DNH or better and 2 good CA ships for wings in order to try to control the area.  Even then team B could go kamikaze and try to get one of the ships for points before dying.

Just trying to see if that is what people think will happen is all.

Team A would use a Big Plasma DN, Iron Duke, or a Battleship with 2 CCHs forcing the CWL fleet off the map until they come back in a fleet capable of winning the battle.   

When you want to control a hex, your bring a gun to a Gunfight.

C7 and 2 D5w?  Come on, it would be C7 with 2 NHK or G-CCH which the CWL fleet would have snowball's chance in hell of beating.

I used those ships as an example.  As if those would be the actual ships, come on.  I left the ships up to the imagination but thought if I went Ship X ship Y  and ship Z, many would not catch on to what I was trying to say.

[FPF-DieHard]

DH you have an error in the list for the Fed BB.  Here is what you have listed (copied here from post above)

Movement Cost: 2
Turn Mode: F
Total Warp Power: 60
Impulse Power: 6
Aux Power: 12
Total Engine Power: 66
Battery: 12

The total engine power is not 66 as you did not add the Aux Power.  It should read 78.  That would put it 1 power over the Klingon one, though not a big difference.

This is copied out of ship edit, it doesn't add the AUX power into total for EITHER ship. 

[Dfly]

DH you have an error in the list for the Fed BB.  Here is what you have listed (copied here from post above)

Movement Cost: 2
Turn Mode: F
Total Warp Power: 60
Impulse Power: 6
Aux Power: 12
Total Engine Power: 66
Battery: 12

The total engine power is not 66 as you did not add the Aux Power.  It should read 78.  That would put it 1 power over the Klingon one, though not a big difference.

This is copied out of ship edit, it doesn't add the AUX power into total for EITHER ship. 

My apologies.  I had not noticed that.

[Dizzy]

What about this . . .

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

yEAH, THAT SOUNDS GOOD. oops caps

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

What about this . . .

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:     20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:    10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:      7 points
BCH:      5 Points
CL X-ship:   4 Points
CA:                2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

Works for me.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Cought up on my reading...

I can live with the new scores.  8-ftr BCVs (was thinking SFB-loadouts with 12), "properly" inflated pricing (as 8 ftrs are about the strength of a CA), and the short time window all add up to a much better sounding deal...

Is this fair???  It would be if the ISC gets the "CCVx" (BCVx with 44 power / CCx with 12 fighters).  I know I'd want a full, stock BCH with the extra fighters anyday, (especially at the same price as the stock BCH) and in the interest of "fair play" it would be necessary to make sure the ISC got one too... (crying foul that the ISC has to pick between 4 power or fighters while nobody else has to... )

You do realize your Line CA has as much power as the Kzin BCH, wanna trade BCHs/BCVs?   

Let me check the numbers...

Per shiplist:
Z-BCH - 187
I-CAZ - 194
I-CCZ - 229

Applying all SFB BPV rules to the SFC numbers:
Z-BCH - 211 (draws 187 BPV opposition)
I-CAZ - 194
I-CCZ - 229

Factor in the difficulty of drones hitting competent (or well-AMDed) opposition...

And I'll stick with the CCZ, thank you...

[FPF-Paladin]

This all sounds good, but if the main point (seems most the thread) was the cost issues and the fact there is no decimal values, I'm thinking increasing the numbers ratios up some might help.. that way you can still have the .67 ships cost a point, but not so close to a CA 2 points.

___________________________________________________________________
Currently:

PvP Kill VC Points

AOTK3 will be going back to the direct Points for kills system.   Below is the scorecard:

Battleship:                20 Points
CVA/DN/I-CCX:          10 Points
CA X-ship/BCV/BCS:    7 points
BCH:                         5 Points
CL X-ship:                  4 Points
CA:                          2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point
Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

___________________________________________________________________

You could increase the numbers, of course it makes things a little more complex math wise.. but gives the ability to assign ships values that would show as decimals in the current listing.  For the example I'd just double them, but maybe a 1.5 times ratio might work.  Some rounding up or down would be needed for say X-ship/BCV/BCS odd numbers though.  But the end result would be a .67 could be worth slightly less, still worth something but not quite half a CA, perhaps enough difference to get the flavour DH seemed to be trying to accomplish.

My take on this would be to round up for carriers, round down for non carriers.  It's only one point difference, but still an increase.  Kind of a nod to the carrier issue.  Adjusted numbers in brackets.
___________________________________________________________________

Battleship:                20 Points  (30)
CVA/DN/I-CCX:         10 Points   (15)
BCV/BCS:                  7 points   (11)
CA X-ship                   7 points  (10)
BCH:                         5 Points   (8 or 7, maybe give the obviously powerful BCH races the rounded up, the weaker rounded down)
CL X-ship:                  4 Points   (6)
CA:                          2 point (This includes the F-CS/F-CS+)   (3, consider 4 for something like fast cruisers/CS etc)
Specialty ships (regardless of move cost): 2 point    (3)

(keep this part intact if you wish, I think I understand the intent)

Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost:  1 point *

* Line/Command ships with a lower than 1 move cost are worth 0 points when flying solo.

________________________________________________________________________________________________


Again I realize this complicates the math, and I only used a 1.5x general increase.  The higher the ratio, the more fine tweaking you could do with whole numbers.

Just an idea.

[FPF-DieHard]

Paladin, it's a little too complicated but I'm liking the idea at leaving cruisers as 2 Point ships and raising specialty ships (regardless of move cost) to 3.   This gives slightly move incentive to fly the line/command cruisers over carriers, Fast Cruisers, droners, etc . . .

[Dizzy]

Paladin, it's a little too complicated but I'm liking the idea at leaving cruisers as 2 Point ships and raising specialty ships (regardless of move cost) to 3.   This gives slightly move incentive to fly the line/command cruisers over carriers, Fast Cruisers, droners, etc . . .

Well that's one way to simulate the rarity of specialty ships...

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Applying all SFB BPV rules to the SFC numbers:

 

[FPF-Paladin]

Paladin, it's a little too complicated but I'm liking the idea at leaving cruisers as 2 Point ships and raising specialty ships (regardless of move cost) to 3.   This gives slightly move incentive to fly the line/command cruisers over carriers, Fast Cruisers, droners, etc . . .

Agreed, yeah I kind of thought it was too complicated too.  I just think sometimes my lack of posting (which is actually because I  1) will fly a campaign pretty much no matter what and  2) generally agree with the ideas/rulesets ) is knd of lazy, I don't want to seem as if I'm not interested nor paying attention.

[Age]

 I would just like to know are you still useing OOB in servers like these as iirc you were going to go the line ship route?Thanks

[FPF-DieHard]

I would just like to know are you still useing OOB in servers like these as iirc you were going to go the line ship route?Thanks

Nah, OOB is a big pain in the butt and I don't think will ever see the light of day again.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I would just like to know are you still useing OOB in servers like these as iirc you were going to go the line ship route?Thanks

Nah, OOB is a big pain in the butt and I don't think will ever see the light of day again.

Agreed rule #1

A game should be fun.