Topic: AOTK3: Legendary Crews

[Riskyllama]

Here's my thinking.  Do you think a player would gain more respect by flying and winning matches with a legendary crew line ship or a command/fast cruiser/carrier variant?  And isn't respect from fellow players what the "ace" status would be about anyway?

I think Ii barely got 5 in a row in my CC and i was shooting for the legendary ship. If you can pull it off in a line ship, you're a better pilot than me, although i never see gorn out of their BF anyways.
As fo chuut's suggestions, I've looked at the ship list, legendary command ships for all races are in there already done and take up a bit of space, what happens when you add every single line ship progression path.

[KBFLordKrueg]

How about 10 Kills in a non-capitol, non-carrier, non-X ship?
Without dying, of course. 
Then they get a Leg CC...

[Dizzy]

10

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Do "aces" really need special ships anyhow?  Isn't it the newer and less skilled pvp players that would best be served by these ships anyway?  Giving a guy who has already proven himself an ace doesn't seem to make for the best matchups IMHO.


Here is an alternate proposal.  

2 legendary ships on a side at one time (3 if the overall commander is flying one as it doesn't count toward the total).  These ships cannot be flown by a veteran which could be defined as a player who has either more than 5 dyna servers experience, or 5 poits worth of kills on this server.  Once you start making an impact on the kill list your "newbie" status is revoked.

This gives the newer players a better chance of helping their side and presenting an even better fight to experienced veterans.  Giving the aces the ships only makes them less likely to be able to do so.  Some aces might find fun in killing the players in Legendary ships, but not exactly what I'd call sporting, even though I can't blame them for using the best tools at their dispossal.  Lets give the "newbies" the tools to make it a better fight.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Do "aces" really need special ships anyhow?  Isn't it the newer and less skilled pvp players that would best be served by these ships anyway?  Giving a guy who has already proven himself an ace doesn't seem to make for the best matchups IMHO.


Here is an alternate proposal.  

2 legendary ships on a side at one time (3 if the overall commander is flying one as it doesn't count toward the total).  These ships cannot be flown by a veteran which could be defined as a player who has either more than 5 dyna servers experience, or 5 poits worth of kills on this server.  Once you start making an impact on the kill list your "newbie" status is revoked.

This gives the newer players a better chance of helping their side and presenting an even better fight to experienced veterans.  Giving the aces the ships only makes them less likely to be able to do so.  Some aces might find fun in killing the players in Legendary ships, but not exactly what I'd call sporting, even though I can't blame them for using the best tools at their dispossal.  Lets give the "newbies" the tools to make it a better fight.

I understand where you're coming from on this Chutt, but, I do feel this ships need to be earned in some way as opposed to handed out.
And limiting the legendary crewed ships to CC gives anyone with an equal or bigger chance just as good of a chance to kill it.
And, after having flown these ships for 2 servers now, I can tell you this.
They ain't all that and a bag of chips...OK?
They turn better, have a little more power and some other stuff.
But, it doesn't make you take less damage.
You don't get better shields.
It doesn't make your weapons hit more.
It does make some of the more familiar ships a little more fun to fly. But they become quickly outclassed as the Heavy Iron ships come out as the years progress.
If it's handling CnC responsibilities or getting successive Kills, they should still be used as a "Reward" instead of "Who wants one?"
IMOHPO

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I understand where you're coming from on this Chutt, but, I do feel this ships need to be earned in some way as opposed to handed out.

I think my point has merit as does yours, I just think mine better for bringing in new players, something we need more than rewards for aces at this juncture.

And limiting the legendary crewed ships to CC gives anyone with an equal or bigger chance just as good of a chance to kill it.

Not true, having the extra benefits makes it harder to kill, if even marginally so.

And, after having flown these ships for 2 servers now, I can tell you this.
They ain't all that and a bag of chips...OK?
They turn better, have a little more power and some other stuff.

I agree, but they are marginally better.

But, it doesn't make you take less damage.
You don't get better shields.

They get more labs which mean better shield regeneration and potentially less damage gets through.

It doesn't make your weapons hit more.

Not necessarily, more power allows you to arm easier/faster, and to close range more effectively. a better turn mode also allows for better shot and more hits and/or more effective hits.

It does make some of the more familiar ships a little more fun to fly. But they become quickly outclassed as the Heavy Iron ships come out as the years progress.

Agreed.

If it's handling CnC responsibilities or getting successive Kills, they should still be used as a "Reward" instead of "Who wants one?"
IMOHPO

Agree in regard to the CnC duties but disagree as to the sucessive kills.  The VCs or PvP point totals are enough reward for kills, and far more important than a legendary ship.

I think efforts to allow newer player to be more competitive in PvP or have a bit more fun in their fights with ai is of greater benefit than an extra perk even if hard earned.  I see where your coming from but I disagree as to the priorities.

[FPF-DieHard]

Do "aces" really need special ships anyhow?  Isn't it the newer and less skilled pvp players that would best be served by these ships anyway?  Giving a guy who has already proven himself an ace doesn't seem to make for the best matchups IMHO.


Here is an alternate proposal. 

2 legendary ships on a side at one time (3 if the overall commander is flying one as it doesn't count toward the total).  These ships cannot be flown by a veteran which could be defined as a player who has either more than 5 dyna servers experience, or 5 poits worth of kills on this server.  Once you start making an impact on the kill list your "newbie" status is revoked.

This gives the newer players a better chance of helping their side and presenting an even better fight to experienced veterans.  Giving the aces the ships only makes them less likely to be able to do so.  Some aces might find fun in killing the players in Legendary ships, but not exactly what I'd call sporting, even though I can't blame them for using the best tools at their dispossal.  Lets give the "newbies" the tools to make it a better fight.

No

[FPF-DieHard]

It's looking like the same rule from SGO7 but with the kill threshold lowered to 10 from 15.   Every other alternatiive proposal has been retarted and over complicated.  Honestly, making it for sale for makes more sense.

The SCC and the HKIC will get one at server startup, MAYBE one more per side to be given out to a "Champion" or whatever.

Also, anyone willing to pay me $50 will get one

[Lepton]

I know this will probably be unpopular but I don't think we should have any legendary officers and especially not for PvP victory counts.  Why do we need to reward people who have sufficient skills in PvPs to meet this ace criteria with a ship that will make it easier for them to win more PvP battles?  Makes very little sense to me.  Frankly, if I were one of these aces, I wouldn't want this help.

I have consistently advocated that we put in place things that will level the playing field among PvPs.  I can't think of anything that would upset that balance more than giving people who are proficient in PvP some kind of further advantage over the rest of us.  If you'd like to reward these folks, give them some sort of public recognition and for every pilot that meets this ace status, give that side some VC points or an additional amount of PvP points for his or her side that could count toward VC points.

I really think it is bassackwards to reward those skilled with something that is going to give them more of an advantage.  Recognize them publicly and give them some more points for it.  That would be my suggestion.

[FPF-DieHard]

I know this will probably be unpopular but I don't think we should have any legendary officers and especially not for PvP victory counts.  Why do we need to reward people who have sufficient skills in PvPs to meet this ace criteria with a ship that will make it easier for them to win more PvP battles?  Makes very little sense to me.  Frankly, if I were one of these aces, I wouldn't want this help.

I have consistently advocated that we put in place things that will level the playing field among PvPs.  I can't think of anything that would upset that balance more than giving people who are proficient in PvP some kind of further advantage over the rest of us.  If you'd like to reward these folks, give them some sort of public recognition and for every pilot that meets this ace status, give that side some VC points or an additional amount of PvP points for his or her side that could count toward VC points.

I really think it is bassackwards to reward those skilled with something that is going to give them more of an advantage.  Recognize them publicly and give them some more points for it.  That would be my suggestion.

It's the "carrot" to get people to fly line ships and a little bit of Candy for the Leaders of each side.   That's pretty much about it.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

It's looking like the same rule from SGO7 but with the kill threshold lowered to 10 from 15.   Every other alternatiive proposal has been retarted and over complicated. 

Hey you admined the GW series and its CnC and you call someone else's idea retarded and overcomplicated.   

I think you won gold at the Special Olympics for some of those  

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

It's the "carrot" to get people to fly line ships and a little bit of Candy for the Leaders of each side.   That's pretty much about it.

Not much of a carrot unless you discount Command Cruiser kills, people who fly those would be flying them anyway for the most part.

Can't say that I've seen a server where certain Command Cruisers weren't a ship of choice for much of the player base during early and mid eras. 

Now if you make it line ship kills only that count, that is another matter entirely and it would be a carrot.

[FPF-DieHard]

It's looking like the same rule from SGO7 but with the kill threshold lowered to 10 from 15.   Every other alternatiive proposal has been retarted and over complicated.

Hey you admined the GW series and its CnC and you call someone else's idea retarded and overcomplicated.   

I think you won gold at the Special Olympics for some of those  

And we've stopped that, you're trying to add a  level of complication with everything your propose on every issue.  And people wonder why the DIP failed.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

And we've stopped that, you're trying to add a  level of complication with everything your propose on every issue.  And people wonder why the DIP failed.

I throw ideas out, some apropriate, some not, some totally hairbrained.  You have to take the good with the bad and hopefully choose the good.  Better than not posting anything I think.   

If you used an idea that didn't work well on a server and I suggested it, I'll take the blame then.   

In some areas,  my ideas are more complicated, and I can certainly understand not being willing to go with them for that reason,  but in others I'm sure they are more simple, you just have to pick and choose as you see fit.   

Of course the simplier idea in regard to the legendary ships is to simply limit them to the overall commander on each side.  No need to make additional edits, no need to keep track of kills, etc.  You could even dispense with them altogether but I think the top guy deserves some reward. 

As for the DIP failure, the main reason was that noone did any work or playtesting in most of the departments, however my section of it did, and was the only one that ever got any ideas that made it into the D2 Campaigns we fly today.  But the main kudos go to Evil Dave and Corbomite regarding those.


Oh and here are some remarks about some of my recent ideas:


"a reasonable suggestion for another thread"

"Very good point, a CVA and 2 CVD is illegal as hell but can be used very effectively to crack any starbase in half.   Your above sugesstion is makes sense."
 
"I can agree to this.  I prefer the DNL anyway"

and verbally

"not a bad idea, just don't know exactly what the Gorn need, just something......"


Come on DH, admit it, you know you love me, in a love/hate sort of way.   

just sift through the bad for what you can use. Don't make me bring S'Trupaul out of retirement White Boy!

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Now here is a BRILLIANT idea:

How about we institute a "subpar" crew for Hexx due to him missing the last server if he returns for this one.   

Oh wait....  thats kinda redundant isn't it.   

[KBFLordKrueg]

Now here is a BRILLIANT idea:

How about we institute a "subpar" crew for Hexx due to him missing the last server if he returns for this one.   

Oh wait....  thats kinda redundant isn't it.   

 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'm not sure what the excitement about Legendary crews is.  Ditto for the command cruisers.  As far as I can see, there's no difference between a command cruiser and the regular ship.  Same power, same weapons, same transporters....am I missing something?

Um no usually if not always, more power, more weapons, better shields, exra ships systems, sometimes better drone control ability.

Compare any race's CC to its CA nd you will see a considerable difference.

[Lieutenant_Q]

D7C to D7 biggest difference 3 Phaser 1s replace 3 Phaser 2s, also have a better Drone Rack with ADD.

F-CAR to F-CC.  Not only does the F-CC have 2 360 Phaser 1s compared to just the 2 RH Phaser 1s.  The F-CC also has 36 power compared to the CARs 34.

Not much difference in the Gorn Ship, and I am not too familiar with the Lyran and Kzinti ships.  There's too many Rommie ships to even begin a quick analysis.

[Dizzy]

I know this will probably be unpopular but I don't think we should have any legendary officers and especially not for PvP victory counts.  Why do we need to reward people who have sufficient skills in PvPs to meet this ace criteria with a ship that will make it easier for them to win more PvP battles? 

I saw Risky in line ships more than anyone. Unfortunately for him, he had me to deal with more often than I think he wanted... I think he was really trying for a Leg ship. I do. I dont usually see Risky flying what he did. Mb we should ask him?

Ywo other players I say flying line ships were Aviator and Dreadpirategeek. Imagine winging with a vet captain and eventually getting to ace status simply by participation in PvP fleet battles w/o dying.

I even tried getting one. I had I think 5-6 kills total in my Gorn CCH ship... But getting 15, maybe otward the end of the server I woulda got 15.

[Julin Eurthyr]

D7C to D7 biggest difference 3 Phaser 1s replace 3 Phaser 2s, also have a better Drone Rack with ADD.

F-CAR to F-CC.  Not only does the F-CC have 2 360 Phaser 1s compared to just the 2 RH Phaser 1s.  The F-CC also has 36 power compared to the CARs 34.

Not much difference in the Gorn Ship, and I am not too familiar with the Lyran and Kzinti ships.  There's too many Rommie ships to even begin a quick analysis.

All from memory:

Gorn are shafted.  All they get in their CA - CC conversion is a flag bridge, maybe.

ISC gets a PPD and 4 power.

Rommie is tough:
WB - KE gets Pl-F & power.
KCR - KCRS gets wing phasers and Pl-D
FHx - SUx gets NHx firepower and fighters

Mirak/Kzinti gets the B/C drone rack config, maybe power / shields

Hydran command boats are the "mixed armament" fusion & hellbore ships

Lyran is the only race I don't remember what their CC gets over the CA...

also, doesn't the F-CC and K-D7C lines get extra shields over their CA counterparts???