Topic: AOTK3: Fleeting rules

[FPF-DieHard]

This is what I'm thinking.   This is open to debate and all input is welcome.  I've marked what was changed from SGO7 in Yellow so it is more obvious.

Fleeting Rules:


- No Capital Ships, (BC's, DN's, CVAs, BBs, and CCX/CAX's), are allowed to fly together.
- CVD's (Interdiction Carriers, those usually with 16 or so fighters) are treated as capital ships, but CVP Carriers (those with 12 ftrs) are not.
- CA and CL X ships are not allowed to fly together.  DDX ships can fly with one other X-ship in a 2 or 3-ship fleet.
- In a Three player fleet, one of the three must be in a line or command cruiser class ship.  A line ship is defined as any ship that is not a command or special class type ship, vanilla in other words.
- Only one MAULER, CARRIER, or FAST ship per fleet.  BCV/BCS's are treated as Carrier class and BC class types, CVAs count as Carrier and DN, Mauler DNs count as Mauler and DN, DNLs count as FAST ship and DN.  And yes, the F-DVL counts as a FAST ship, CARRIER, and a DN.
- Only 3 PPDs per fleet unless all PPDs are on the same ship.  (This was Jahkle’s rule from PBR, the 1 PPD-ship rule is too restrictive).
- If illegal ship combos are in a fleet by accident, their opponent may choose which offending ship must immediately disengage, and the disengagement penalty is voided for the disengaging ship, but they must stay in spectator mode till the battle concludes.   
EXCEPTION:  If you draft on a Planet or base where people are re-suppying, you fight whatever is drafted.  If you draft 3 BBs while they are re-supplying, you gotta fight them.

[KBF MalaK]

Man, I love that exception.

[Julin Eurthyr]

I like...

Allows legal X-squadrons, keeps specialty cheese cut down, actually lets the ISC be more ISC, and increases base defenses...

Concern:
How do you tell which DNs of a 3xDN fleet are resupplying and which DNs are just sitting rock on a base/planet?

and a potential re-wording of a couple of rules for you, hopefully simplifying the work:
Capital ships are: all BCH, DN, & BB hulls, CVDs (16 or so fighter CA carriers), and CA-hulled X-ships.
Only one Mauler, Carrier, Capital and Fast ship per fleet.  "Multi-Classed" ships, ie, those that fit 2 or more of the restrictred roles, count as the one allowed version of any/all roles it fills (so a BCV / BCS / CVA fills the Capital & carrier slots, Mauler DNs are capital & mauler, DNLs are capital & fast, DVLs are capital, fast, and carrier, etc.)
CA and CL X ships are not allowed to fly together.  DDX ships can fly with one other X ship in a fleet.

Think about it for a moment.  Currently, you define most capital ships, and state in a rule that they cannot fly together (so effectively one capital ship per fleet)
You have a second rule adding one more ship-type to the capital ship definition.
And the actual rule that defines an allowable fleet does not directly mention the capital ship restriction, but constantly infers it's existance.
All I do is combine all the capital ship definitions into one rule, and explicitly add capital ships to the one-of-each-type per fleet rule.

[FPF-DieHard]

Concern:
How do you tell which DNs of a 3xDN fleet are resupplying and which DNs are just sitting rock on a base/planet?

I haven't figured that out yet.      I've always been a a believer that it should be easier to attack than defend, perhaps they SHOULD be allowed to sit rock on a Planet or Base to defend it?

and a potential re-wording of a couple of rules for you, hopefully simplifying the work:
Capital ships are: all BCH, DN, & BB hulls, CVDs (16 or so fighter CA carriers), and CA-hulled X-ships.
Only one Mauler, Carrier, Capital and Fast ship per fleet.  "Multi-Classed" ships, ie, those that fit 2 or more of the restrictred roles, count as the one allowed version of any/all roles it fills (so a BCV / BCS / CVA fills the Capital & carrier slots, Mauler DNs are capital & mauler, DNLs are capital & fast, DVLs are capital, fast, and carrier, etc.)
CA and CL X ships are not allowed to fly together.  DDX ships can fly with one other X ship in a fleet.

Think about it for a moment.  Currently, you define most capital ships, and state in a rule that they cannot fly together (so effectively one capital ship per fleet)
You have a second rule adding one more ship-type to the capital ship definition.
And the actual rule that defines an allowable fleet does not directly mention the capital ship restriction, but constantly infers it's existance.
All I do is combine all the capital ship definitions into one rule, and explicitly add capital ships to the one-of-each-type per fleet rule.

I copied the verbage from SGO7.   Yours is easier to follw so I'll copy that after i get some more iputer from people.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Suggestion #1 I think that CVAs point value should be brought down to 6 with other dreadnaughts given the fleeting restrictions and the fair chance they will be engaged without a full complement of fighters.  6 points is still alot, but I think 8 is too heavy.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

DNLs count as FAST ship and Mauler. 

Shouldn't DNLs count as a DN and as a Fast ship instead?  why should they count as a mauler?

[FPF-DieHard]

DNLs count as FAST ship and Mauler. 

Shouldn't DNLs count as a DN and as a Fast ship instead?  why should they count as a mauler?

It's a Typo, FAST ship and DN.

[FPF-DieHard]

Suggestion #1 I think that CVAs point value should be brought down to 6 with other dreadnaughts given the fleeting restrictions and the fair chance they will be engaged without a full complement of fighters.  6 points is still alot, but I think 8 is too heavy.

a reasonable suggestion for another thread

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

EXCEPTION:  If you draft on a Planet or base where people are re-suppying, you fight whatever is drafted.  If you draft 3 BBs while they are re-supplying, you gotta fight them.

I like this, planets are not only log jams but cruicial areas, this rule addresses both aspects.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Is the Federation CS considered a "FAST" ship?

[FPF-DieHard]

Is the Federation CS considered a "FAST" ship?

No, the F-CS+ has a small YA window in which it's available to keep it's existance more resonable.   It's LYAd as soon as the NCL is out.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Concern:
How do you tell which DNs of a 3xDN fleet are resupplying and which DNs are just sitting rock on a base/planet?

I haven't figured that out yet.      I've always been a a believer that it should be easier to attack than defend, perhaps they SHOULD be allowed to sit rock on a Planet or Base to defend it?

I think you had another typo and reversed atttack and defend, if so I agree totally.

I see nothing wrong with them sitting rock on a planet or base. 

That being said, perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to disengage from such areas, especially planets.  I mean could you see Captain Kirk being allowed to disengage if the Klingons were bombarding Rigel, even if outgunned with civilians dying planetside under the onslaught?

Maybe you reduce the PvP points in such a situation but don't allow for anyone to run away, but make them stand tough and do their best no matter the odds.  That might help offset any advantage they got from being allowed what would otherwise be illegal fleeting.

[FPF-DieHard]

Concern:
How do you tell which DNs of a 3xDN fleet are resupplying and which DNs are just sitting rock on a base/planet?

I haven't figured that out yet.      I've always been a a believer that it should be easier to attack than defend, perhaps they SHOULD be allowed to sit rock on a Planet or Base to defend it?

I think you had another typo and reversed atttack and defend, if so I agree totally.

I see nothing wrong with them sitting rock on a planet or base. 

That being said, perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to disengage from such areas, especially planets.  I mean could you see Captain Kirk being allowed to disengage if the Klingons were bombarding Rigel, even if outgunned with civilians dying planetside under the onslaught?

Maybe you reduce the PvP points in such a situation but don't allow for anyone to run away, but make them stand tough and do their best no matter the odds.  That might help offset any advantage they got from being allowed what would otherwise be illegal fleeting.

I can't type today, meant to say easier to defend than attack.   I do disagree with your proposed idea, not happening.

There will be no "PvP" points on AOTK3.   Kills are going back to being worth direct VCs (more details to come later).

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I do disagree with your proposed idea, not happening.

Fair enough, just throwing the idea out for consideration.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

One thing I'd like to has out.

If a team assaulting a planet (or in any other mission for that matter) has an illegal fleet combination and it is by accident of drafting the wrong players or some other reason, and no enemy players are involved, what is the proper response.

Do they "send away" ships until a legal combo is reached, Play it out then take precautions not to repeat the faulty draft, immediately have everyone disengage, or some other action?

Normally I think it would not be a big deal as its just one mission and I'd think playing it out would be acceptable, especially when the intent was to draft a different player who gets left out of the mission.  However, in cases where a destructable base is at issue I think one of the other 2 options might be better.

Just think we need to set a standard policy for this.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

One other idea,

If a lone player is online for his side, and more than 1 player is online for the opposing side, should we allow them to fly multiple ships to defend a planets and bases?

I would think that as long as his fleet did not violate the normal fleeting rules for 3 players, (ie one line/command cruiser, only one capital ship, etc with all the restrictions), he should be allowed to do so in order to defend VC objectives and bases, but only be allowed to do on those hexes only, and if caught on another hex he must disengage ships from his fleet until only 1 remained before the battle started.

Just another idea for consideration.  Might be more trouble than its worth I know, but think its worth a few minutes of consideration.

[FPF-DieHard]

One thing I'd like to has out.

If a team assaulting a planet (or in any other mission for that matter) has an illegal fleet combination and it is by accident of drafting the wrong players or some other reason, and no enemy players are involved, what is the proper response.

Do they "send away" ships until a legal combo is reached, Play it out then take precautions not to repeat the faulty draft, immediately have everyone disengage, or some other action?

Normally I think it would not be a big deal as its just one mission and I'd think playing it out would be acceptable, especially when the intent was to draft a different player who gets left out of the mission.  However, in cases where a destructable base is at issue I think one of the other 2 options might be better.

Just think we need to set a standard policy for this.

Very good point, a CVA and 2 CVD is illegal as hell but can be used very effectively to crack any starbase in half.   Your above sugesstion is makes sense.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Concern:
How do you tell which DNs of a 3xDN fleet are resupplying and which DNs are just sitting rock on a base/planet?

I haven't figured that out yet.      I've always been a a believer that it should be easier to attack than defend, perhaps they SHOULD be allowed to sit rock on a Planet or Base to defend it?

I can live with the rule "when attacking a planet/base, you face whatever defense may be sitting there, whether or not it's a legal fleet"...   What fleet isn't gonna concentrate the full power of it's fleet to the protection of a key asset?  Luckily, this is a double-edged sword, I go in, draft 3xDN with a FF, die spectacularly for little cost and a short disengagement, while my comrades all hit underneath me knowing full well there's no DNs waiting... :evil:

[KBFLordKrueg]

This is what I'm thinking.   This is open to debate and all input is welcome.  I've marked what was changed from SGO7 in Yellow so it is more obvious.

Fleeting Rules:


- No Capital Ships, (BC's, DN's, CVAs, BBs, and CCX/CAX's), are allowed to fly together.
- CVD's (Interdiction Carriers, those usually with 16 or so fighters) are treated as capital ships, but CVP Carriers (those with 12 ftrs) are not.
- CA and CL X ships are not allowed to fly together.  DDX ships can fly with one other X-ship in a 2 or 3-ship fleet.
- In a Three player fleet, one of the three must be in a line or command cruiser class ship.  A line ship is defined as any ship that is not a command or special class type ship, vanilla in other words.
- Only one MAULER, CARRIER, or FAST ship per fleet.  BCV/BCS's are treated as Carrier class and BC class types, CVAs count as Carrier and DN, Mauler DNs count as Mauler and DN, DNLs count as FAST ship and DN.  And yes, the F-DVL counts as a FAST ship, CARRIER, and a DN.
- Only 3 PPDs per fleet unless all PPDs are on the same ship.  (This was Jahkle’s rule from PBR, the 1 PPD-ship rule is too restrictive).
- If illegal ship combos are in a fleet by accident, their opponent may choose which offending ship must immediately disengage, and the disengagement penalty is voided for the disengaging ship, but they must stay in spectator mode till the battle concludes.   
EXCEPTION:  If you draft on a Planet or base where people are re-suppying, you fight whatever is drafted.  If you draft 3 BBs while they are re-supplying, you gotta fight them.

Acceptable...

[Lieutenant_Q]

Concern:
How do you tell which DNs of a 3xDN fleet are resupplying and which DNs are just sitting rock on a base/planet?

I haven't figured that out yet.      I've always been a a believer that it should be easier to attack than defend, perhaps they SHOULD be allowed to sit rock on a Planet or Base to defend it?

I can live with the rule "when attacking a planet/base, you face whatever defense may be sitting there, whether or not it's a legal fleet"...   What fleet isn't gonna concentrate the full power of it's fleet to the protection of a key asset?  Luckily, this is a double-edged sword, I go in, draft 3xDN with a FF, die spectacularly for little cost and a short disengagement, while my comrades all hit underneath me knowing full well there's no DNs waiting... :evil:

Quite honestly, if that was done intentionally constantly, I would Ban the offender and tell him to never come back.  We're supposed to be playing a game Civilly, and that type of thing only ruins the game for everyone involved.