Topic: Things I can do in Linux that I can't do on Windows.

[Nemesis]

Things I can do in Linux that I can't do on Windows.

1. Update every single piece of software on my system with a single action. 

2. Update nearly everything on my computer without a reboot.

3. Keep my system secure without software that consumes my system resources, requires my time, and frequently nags me.

4. Run an entire operating system for free without pirating software, and without breaking the law. 

5. Take my settings with me where ever I go.

6. Run Internet Explorer 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, and 7.0 on the same desktop.

7. Understand everything that is going on in my computer.

8. Customize every aspect of my desktop.

9. Benefit from competition between projects for each system on my computer.

10. Run thousands of great pieces of software that only run on Linux.

11. Learn about, support, and appreciate the value of free software.

[GE-Raven]

Heh...  then a meany comes along and says...

Things you can't do on Linux...

1.  Play 99% of the games made in the past 10 years.
2.  Put it on the "average" end users workstation and expect them to function.
3.  Expect support from a trained professional because you payed for such support.


Now I am sure you will have exceptions to all three (as I indeed can see obvious exceptions to your 10)  However I have often said that Linux is a great open source operating system.  However I find comparing it to Windows kind of like looking at a Go Cart and comparing it to a Lexus.  Sure the Go cart may be faster, you know what ever part does, and it may even be far more versatile than a Lexus... but people who buy a Lexus will never much care to hop in the worlds best Go Cart.

All a  matter of taste a suppose.  I could change the oil in my car... but why?  My time is worth more than the $15 I spend to have it done by a professional.

GE-Raven

[Lepton]

Things I can do in Linux that I can't do on Windows.

1. Update every single piece of software on my system with a single action.

Or break your entire operating system if the multitudinous updates goes awry

2. Update nearly everything on my computer without a reboot.

Unless the particular distro requires you to.  Ubuntu for instance.

3. Keep my system secure without software that consumes my system resources, requires my time, and frequently nags me.

There are frequent updates to linux distros and they certainly can be annoying

4. Run an entire operating system for free without pirating software, and without breaking the law.

Does that include playing DVDs?  I don't think so.

6. Run Internet Explorer 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, and 7.0 on the same desktop.

Why would you want to??

7. Understand everything that is going on in my computer.

Maybe you do, but I don't and I'd prefer to not know.  The problem with linux is that there is too much I have to know to run it effectively or troubleshoot problems that arise

8. Customize every aspect of my desktop.

If you are willing to put in the effort and potentially hose your OS.  Beryl/Compix are not ready for prime time and not user-friendly to install and use.

9. Benefit from competition between projects for each system on my computer.

Or suffer from fragmented and at times conflicting developments in operating systems and applications.  I wish linux just worked.  Often it does, but often it doesn't.  Try to do something simple like listen to streaming radio over the web.  Windows; it's very easy.  Linux; nearly impossible.

10. Run thousands of great pieces of software that only run on Linux.

That does not include the real stuff I do the most on my computer which is play games.

I like linux.  I like Ubuntu, but I wish more time was spent making linux just work for what you need it to do rather than small upgrades and changes in desktop managers and whiz-bang effects.  I could care less what things look like.  I just want it to work.  For a number of things it just doesn't for me.

[Dash Jones]

Heh... then a meany comes along and says...

Things you can't do on Linux...

1. Play 99% of the games made in the past 10 years.
2. Put it on the "average" end users workstation and expect them to function.
3. Expect support from a trained professional because you payed for such support.


Now I am sure you will have exceptions to all three (as I indeed can see obvious exceptions to your 10) However I have often said that Linux is a great open source operating system. However I find comparing it to Windows kind of like looking at a Go Cart and comparing it to a Lexus. Sure the Go cart may be faster, you know what ever part does, and it may even be far more versatile than a Lexus... but people who buy a Lexus will never much care to hop in the worlds best Go Cart.

All a matter of taste a suppose. I could change the oil in my car... but why? My time is worth more than the $15 I spend to have it done by a professional.

GE-Raven

Funny...

I can play more games on Linux than ON WINDOWS VISTA, the newest Microsoft OS.  And with Wine, they have many of the major game releases playable on Linux.  Ironically Vista is really bad for games.  Does that mean you can't play 99.9% of the games EVER released on Vista...whereas probably 60% of all games EVER released are playable on Linux?

You might be right on the average workstation...or not.  Mepis seems to be able to install anywhere in just about any fashion, even straight from the CD, with mouse and video support.  Has a tetris like game that comes with it too.
Much easier to use and boot than windows even.  What do you qualify as Average.  There is MORE than just one version of Linux by the way, some are easier and some harder than others to use.  I think you're forgetting the easier ones, or simply just didn't know they existed.

On trained support...

Hmm...NEVER had that with MS either.  I've called them before in trying to install XP, recently even, when they wanted the XP version to be "authorized" from an official copy.  Had to download a hardcopy of SP2 and install for the official version to finally update...NO THANKS to the supposedly Professionals at MS who had NO IDEA what was wrong except trying to accuse people of theft (idiots).

So...exactly what professional support are you talking about?

I've actually had less need of support from the Linux than from Windows too...if that's what you are referring too.  There's no need for pro support if the OS doesn't have problems.

However, there IS MORE user support from those who actually KNOW what is happening for Linux than for Windows in my experience thus far.  Windows has a website which if you know how to use the search function, and are technically skilled you normally can figure it out by the seat of your pants...

Luckily Linux has more forums where you don't have to spend days trying to figure out what's wrong with the OS...someone usually has already encountered the bug and can answer it for you.

Just in defense of Linux, not to put down Windows any (well except for Vista...that one currently stinks major you know what).

[Nemesis]

Guys that link was not totally serious. 

Since I often hear from friends and people on the Internet about things they can't do in Linux that they could on Windows, I thought I'd write up a list of things I can do in Linux that I can't do in Windows.

That said I will address some points that were raised.

Or break your entire operating system if the multitudinous updates goes awry

Happens to Windows to.  Why do you think I stopped using IE?  It was back on Windows 98SE and an IE update broke my ability to access the Internet with all other programs.  I reverted to a backup and installed Mozilla and was guite happy with it until I switched to Firefox.

There are frequent updates to linux distros and they certainly can be annoying

Then don't update at every chance maybe?  Update when you see issues that affect you.  Most updates will involve programs that you don't use and may not have installed.

Does that include playing DVDs?  I don't think so.

See Hollywood about that or ... use a commercial Linux rather than a free one that comes with that ability.  It can be done but the big media companies threaten to sue anyone into the ground who distributes a free player.

Or suffer from fragmented and at times conflicting developments in operating systems and applications.  I wish linux just worked.  Often it does, but often it doesn't.  Try to do something simple like listen to streaming radio over the web.  Windows; it's very easy.  Linux; nearly impossible.

Like with the DVD player - use a commercial version.  Linspire for example and play Windows Media (part of the settlement with Microsoft where Microsoft paid them to let the lawsuit Microsoft started be dropped) and other media with commercial programs.  Ubuntu which you mentioned earlier is being given or has been given the ability to purchase and use these programs from Linspire.

Linux supports standards - Microsoft breaks them.

1.  Play 99% of the games made in the past 10 years.

What percentage of those games will be working on Vista now?  For myself I've been pushed increasingly away from games as I won't submit to Microsofts control fetish and upgrade to a Windows newer than my 2000Pro.  If I must sacrifice computer games for my freedom and privacy so be it.

2.  Put it on the "average" end users workstation and expect them to function.

Depends on what you call average.  Most people know how to log on and use a handful of programs.  Web browser, E-mail (maybe through the web) and an office suite.  If they are not total idiots they can learn to do that on Linux or Mac with relative ease.

The ones that have real problems converting often have upgrade issues within Windows/Office as the macros and Visual basic programs that their IT stuff or contractors have created for them get broken.

3.  Expect support from a trained professional because you payed for such support.

As Dash mentioned there are companies that support Linux.

Also as Dash mentioned Microsoft doesn't always succeed either.  For example what was the official Microsoft "fix" for Win98 failing to shut down cleanly and leaving you at the "You may now turn off your computer screen" left over from Win95?  "Reformat and reinstall" and then do it again each time the issue recurrs.  It seems that is all too often their fix.  It took me 10 minutes to deduce a fix and test it the first time (uninstall power management and reboot - it gets detected and reinstalled).  Why couldn't Microsoft come up with a fix?

Why am *I* moving to Linux - Freedom.  Not free from cost but free from MY COMPUTER being controlled by a convicted illegal monoplist with a control fetish.  If the shackles are comfortable for you feel free to wear them but do not object to those of us on whom the shackles have become too onerous breaking free and having our own rebellions and tea parties.

+1  to you all

[KBF MalaK]

I tried Linux once- redhat 9 and 9.1, took me 3 days to figure out how to get a second hard drive into the file system..

Never again.

I hate windows too but nobody's going back to DOS soon, so I'll just wait until windows get replaced by something that actually works- without the need for a programming degree to use it.


...on in the case of vista, laugh.

[Lepton]

I'm sorry but I have never broken my windows installation and the example that is cited is for an ancient operating system, whereas I have broken my various linux installs any number of times just trying to get things to work.  At this stage in linux, I shouldn't have to manually enter a screen resolution into my xorg.conf file to get it to work especially when gnome is giving me the option to switch to that resolution in the screen resolution manager, yet I do indeed have to enter 1280x800 manually.  It's preposterous.  This is the simple crap that should have been sorted out ages ago, yet here we are.

And yes, we all know Vista is a pile of crap, and yes, we'd all prefer to be on linux, but why oh why can't I do something so simple such as watch and listen to streaming content without a hassle or change my bloody screen resolution?  It's ridiculous.

[Dash Jones]

That's odd, you must be using a different version of Linux than Me...

I've NEVER had to manually enter a change in resolution on Linux.  I HAVE had windows screw up so badly in XP that it gets a higher resolution than a monitor can show and suddenly, I have NOTHING to see.  Sure the computer is running, but I can't see anything. MS's answer...reinstall...delete the old install of the OS...and reinstall a new one...

Riiiiiight.  Great solution.  In otherwords...they have NO fix for it.  That's broken. (Even I had a better solution than that which I used ultimately, but that applies for almost all of the problems I've had with MS OS's that are listed below).

OH THAT's RIGHT...there are DIFFERENT OS's out there, most of which fall under Linux, and only a few that fall under Windows, inclusive of Vista.

XP?  Oh that one, that one locked me out after a month if I didn't "register" it.  Than I can't access ANYTHING.  Oh, that's a real useful OS.  ONe that doesn't even work after a month.  So I have to register myself with MS and authorize it so I fall on their database...so much for privacy.  Even than, with an original XP copy now, I STILL will get locked out if I try to go online with it since it refuses to "authorize" now, unless I manually update it to SP2, and then, and ONLY then will it work..and even qualify under WGA.

MS's answer original...it must be pirated...or...no answer at all...

I have the packaging and the codes for it...Oh, and of course once SP2 was installed...it had no problems being "authorized"

MS's answer...oh...that didn't happen...(my arse it didn't...).

Lucky for you MS had a lawsuit...or you wouldn't be able to watch the streaming video on your Windows anyways today seeing they pirated that stuff and got the stuffings sued out of them.

Vista is worse however...

I actually would be much more pro MS if they weren't so hostile towards the users after XP came out.  I prefer Western Companies to Asian ones and would much prefer them to be successful.  However MS's hostility in regards to many of the customer ideals under the shadow of stopping piracy is BS in the West.  There IS piracy, but a majority of the world's piracy is in Asia (where interestingly enough you have been able to get legit copies of WinXP without authorization due to deals MS made...).

I have broken a Windows XP version just recently.  I actually got a light blue screen (lighter than the win9X screens of yesteryear) which told me that I had a critical failure in Windows and it was unable to initialize.

Much of this is because I do video editing and programing amongst other items on the computers which probably far exceed what most would do...

But XP IS much easier for me to break and get a blue screen of critical failure than the versions of Linux I use.

XP has a LOT of crud that should have been sorted out ages ago.

What's worse is that people are so blindly supporting things in MS that they feel that they can come out with a system that compounds MANY of these same faults in the form of Vista.

I would like it if MS would get off their high horse, and come back to their roots of catering to the consumer.  I too am a gamer, massively overall.  Currently Vista offers NOTHING for me...and I must admit due to second party programs and iniatives (which MS has been trying to kill, that's what they did with Vista and WHY it's so broken, they disabled all second party programs that enabled games to work) XP has become the best system for gaming, and beats linux by far.

For gamers...XP is the king right now.

For moviemakers however, XP is one of the worst OS's, if not the worst out there.  It is MUCH worse than Linux.  Mac is actually king over Movie making right now (and the ultimate Movie Machine I use for is now a Mac, costing 17,999 USD, which isn't even the best one out there).

I would be one of the biggest MS fanatics however if they would stop some of the stupid BS they've been doing and still pursuing in Vista (and is the entire reason why Vista blows currently for gamers, because MS is trying to enforce what they've been wanting to do which is make non-compatibility with other's programs so one is forced to use theirs...sounds good for business, but actually is bad because it makes for a bad OS).  You would think they would learn that the reason gamers are using XP now (and it was 9X before XP eventually became compatible) was because it offered something Linux didn't, compatibility with programs that came out.

The do away with the dumb Authorization stupidity (which has caused me problems WITH LEGIT copies of XP sold to me directly BY MS years ago), and stop trying to put an end to compatibility with programs on purpose (note XP was also unpopular at first for the same reasons of non-compatibility, they eventually got off their high horse probably because they saw sales would be better if they allowed compatibility, and came out with SPs and other patches that made games run better) and I'd be a rabid fan.

Probably also make Windows better for video editing too if they'd start allowing compatibility with some formats which run and compress better under other OS's currently.  That's something that you might not realize, it's easier to compress and stream from another OS (not necessarily a free Linux however) than Windows.

In fact the forerunner of good Movie watching and making in the industry is over at Apple instead of at MS currently, which is why trailers many times come out on QT much earlier than on a Windows authorized program.

Anyways, I've said enough.  I AM ultimately an MS fan, even if it doesn't sound like it.  I actually respect Mr. Gates a LOT.  I don't like what many of his VPs and other business runners do however.

The current run of Vista has me running Linux on all new computers until They start getting Vista more compatible, either that or no amount of respect will get me to invest in Vista heavily.  At that point I might as well move to Macs completely, or Linux machines.  That's probably my main gripe.  Got hosed by Vista and hence was driven to Linux.

[Nemesis]

I'm sorry but I have never broken my windows installation and the example that is cited is for an ancient operating system, whereas I have broken my various linux installs any number of times just trying to get things to work. 

Ancient version of Windows?  Perhaps.  But since I refuse to "upgrade" to WinXP or later from my Win2000Pro any such experience from me will be "ancient".  Just yesterday I had to reboot that Win2000Pro machine as for no apparent reason the (Microsoft) trackball suddenly was not working.

My brother-in-law however sells computers and like Dash he has had his XP fail to validate and Microsoft insisted he had to buy a new copy until he said "%&** you - I have a Redhat Linux here and I'm going to put it on all 6 computers", then they gave him validation codes for all 6 machines even though only one had failed to validate.

Unlike you I have found my Linux installations "unbreakable" and my Windows systems very breakable.  When I came home after a power failure lasted longer than my UPS capacity the Windows machine wouldn't load the 2000Pro as it had corrupted a file.  The Linux machine with a journalling file system found and repaired equivalent defects and though it took longer than usual to boot it did in fact boot.  I then used it to search online for a fix for the Windows machine.  Windows apparently does back up that file in case of corruption - its up to you to find it and replace the orignal to fix it though.  (File name forgotten it has been awhile).

For the original SETI the Windows client ran faster (~10%) on Linux using Wine than on Windows.  For some purposes Linux/Wine is a better Windows than Windows itself.

At this stage in linux, I shouldn't have to manually enter a screen resolution into my xorg.conf file to get it to work especially when gnome is giving me the option to switch to that resolution in the screen resolution manager, yet I do indeed have to enter 1280x800 manually.  It's preposterous.  This is the simple crap that should have been sorted out ages ago, yet here we are.

Very strange as I change screen resolution on my OpenSuse Linux 10.1 (KDE) in a very similar way to how I do it on my Windows machine.  Right click on the desktop, choose configure desktop, click display and there front and center is a scrollable list of screen resolutions.  I find the scrollable list much better than the Windows slider bar where you can bypass the desired resolution repeatedly while trying to get the one you choose.

And yes, we all know Vista is a pile of crap, and yes, we'd all prefer to be on linux, but why oh why can't I do something so simple such as watch and listen to streaming content without a hassle or change my bloody screen resolution?  It's ridiculous.

As stated earlier see Hollywood (the MPAA) and the music industry (RIAA) and Microsofts non support of standards.  Due to the MPAA and RIAA penchant for sueing over such things as freely available DVD player software and the requirement to support Microsoft proprietary "standards" by those who do streaming it is difficult to legally do so in a free distribution.  Linspire however as I stated does so support them as a paid distribution with a Microsoft license for the MS-WMA "standard".

Look up the saga of "DVD Jon" for a good example of why DVD support is lacking in free software.  In Norway he was tried in court not once, not twice but 3 times for cracking the DVD encryption.  Why?  Because U.S. big media companies used every bit of pressure they could bring to bear and kept having his innocence set aside and new trials called for.  After 3 failed attempts they were no longer able to continue charging him.

Under the U.S. DMCA (digital millenium copyright act) it is illegal to own any device that can be used for bypassing copy protection.  Due to the weak (if not outright stupid) "copy protection" systems used that effectively makes Sharpie pens and shift keys on WIndows computers illegal.  So far no once has pushed it though so you are unlikely to go to jail for owning either but strictly by the law you could. 

So is it any wonder that any company that wants to distribute into the U.S. does not support a free DVD player on Linux or proprietary streaming media formats?  They want to stay out of court.

[Lepton]

I am sorry, but you guys are whistling in the dark.  Go on any support site for a popular linux distribution and you will see that people often, often post about broken installations due to updates, distribution upgrades, and having to mess with manual edits to X configuration files.  Don't deny the facts.  It's a common occurrence.

And FYI, in the past I have used Debian and Ubuntu.  With the latest Ubuntu distro Feisty Faun 7.04, I had to manually enter my screen resolution into the xorg.conf file.  It's a very popular distribution and it can't do this simple thing on its own with me having to go into sudo to do it.  That is not user-friendly.

Some time ago, I was trying to get a GIS program to work under Ubuntu that I believe required a newer library for some graphics format, png or gif, which one I can't remember.  After attempting to upgrade the libraries and failing to under apt, I tried to do it all manually and was never able to fix the libraries.  This broke my desktop as gnome depended on the graphics file format that had broken. So I had no sensible icons of any sort.  Somewhere along the line in attempting to restore the installation, I broke the whole installation, and tried after many attempts to recover basic X windows functionality and gnome, I gave up and just reinstalled the whole OS.  Frankly, it should not be possible to break something as simple as a graphics library to meet some other software dependency.  This is the problem with Linux, no consistent development environment.  Everyone's got the freedom to do as they please and this places the entire onus on the user to just make it work.  Further, it shouldn't be possible to break crucial systems like this to meet dependencies or for any other reason.

And this is only one personal example that I can cite for you.  There are many others.  I realize that Linux is often more efficient and has many beneficial social and economic benefits tied to its use, however until the OS can do something as simple as probe my hardware to detect screen resolutions and allow me to change those resolutions simply and do something as simple as manage multiple streaming file formats and allow for easy access under any web browser, it will never be what we would like it to be, the OS of choice for most, rather than the technological fringe.

[Nemesis]

I am sorry, but you guys are whistling in the dark.  Go on any support site for a popular linux distribution and you will see that people often, often post about broken installations due to updates, distribution upgrades, and having to mess with manual edits to X configuration files.  Don't deny the facts.  It's a common occurrence.

Go to support sites for Windows and 2 common methods of fixing problems are editing the registry and "reformat and reinstall".   Considering that Microsoft limits the number of reinstalls under XP and later having to reinstall eventually forces you to pay Microsoft even though the reinstall is their fault not yours. 

How is editing the registry any better than editing X config files?  At least the X config is a standard text file and can be edited by whatever text processor you like.  Can you edit the registry with anything other than regedit and perhaps a hex editor?

And this is only one personal example that I can cite for you.  There are many others.  I realize that Linux is often more efficient and has many beneficial social and economic benefits tied to its use, however until the OS can do something as simple as probe my hardware to detect screen resolutions and allow me to change those resolutions simply

Linux does probe mine successfully on both my NEC monitor and the older Sony.  It just works.  What is your hardware that Linux doesn't handle it?

On the same basis why can't Windows probe my monitor and set it up?  Why do I have manually show it where a *.inf file is for it?  Why even in spite of that being setup does Windows run my monitor out of range in safe mode?  Linux just works with it.

Why does the Windows install insist that my HD Controller device driver be on a floppy rather than on any type of media if it isn't supported by Microsofts install CD?  Microsoft has been calling the floppy obsolete for nearly 10 years but at least as far as XP this is still true, unless you know enough to remaster the install CD with the right controller.   Linux just works with it and I have been informed that if it didn't then you can point the installer to whatever source you like from floppy to network location.

and do something as simple as manage multiple streaming file formats and allow for easy access under any web browser, it will never be what we would like it to be, the OS of choice for most, rather than the technological fringe.

Which as I have twice already pointed out you can do using paid versions of Linux that can distribute those programs without being sued to death.

How often do you need to defragment your Windows HD?  With Linux defraging is not an issue.  When is Microsoft going to get an up to date file system that does not fragment significantly and does have journalling?

When I log on as root KDE warns me of the dangers of running as root.  XP and earlier don't, how about Vista?  A great deal of Windows software makes running as Administrator a requirement.

How often does your Linux "call home" to the distributor compared to Windows?  When you install a patch does it call home like patches to XP do?  When has Linux ever failed to operate because the distributor says it is a "pirated version" due to some unverified software check? 

Does your Linux EULA forbid you to run the software in a virtual machine unless you buy the "Premium" versions?  Does the EULA take away rights that copyright LAW gives you or does the Linux EULA in fact extend more rights to you than the law requires?  Recent Microsoft patch/update EULAs have forbidden downgrading to the older version. (specifically has been done with Mediaplayer.)  All Microsoft EULAs add restrictions beyond what the law does.

So you see that Windows too has its issues.  Issues concerning my freedom and my control of MY computer and my privacy.  Not to mention feeding money to a convicted, unrepentant abusive monopolist that has so far avoided documenting interoperation protocols as ordered by both the U.S. courts and the EU courts.

[Lepton]

I think you are missing my primary point.  No doubt people can and do experience problems with their Windows installation, but I personally have never broken my Windows install, while you and I know for a fact that this is easily done under Linux, if not common.  I have never needed to do a reg edit.  I have had to enter the terminal to fix things that apt or other things have broken or failed to update completely.  To the degree that this experience is common and I believe it is, Linux will never be the OS of choice.  Also to the degree, that simple things like configuring screen resolutions requires altering system files manually, Linux will never be the OS of choice.

None of the Windows problems that you cite have been my experience, nor do I believe they are most people's experience of Windows.  If you can't acknowledge the shortcomings of Linux honestly, then I cannot really take your comments seriously.  I realize Windows has any number of technical and ethical issue attached to it, but to the degree that rather simple operations cannot be accomplished under Linux, it will not be the OS choice for the masses.

[Nemesis]

I think you are missing my primary point.  No doubt people can and do experience problems with their Windows installation, but I personally have never broken my Windows install, while you and I know for a fact that this is easily done under Linux, if not common. 

I do not know from my own experience that you can break Linux easily.  You may have done so but that does not mean I have either done so or seen it.

I have been called on many times by friends and co-workers to help them fix their Windows machines that they or software they have used have "hosed".  I've never had to do so on Linux. 

Your being lucky enough never to destroy your Windows system does not invalidate the experiences of others such as myself who have seen them so destroyed.

I have never needed to do a reg edit.  I have had to enter the terminal to fix things that apt or other things have broken or failed to update completely.  To the degree that this experience is common and I believe it is, Linux will never be the OS of choice.  Also to the degree, that simple things like configuring screen resolutions requires altering system files manually, Linux will never be the OS of choice.

You are lucky never to have needed regedit.  I have many times as I suspect many here have. 

I have never had to edit the X-conf manually on Linux.  I have edited the Samba configuration files to make it work with my Windows though but that it partially because Microsoft doesn't document their networking settings and changes them between versions. 

None of the Windows problems that you cite have been my experience, nor do I believe they are most people's experience of Windows. 

I have seen them on Windows but have not seen the things you cite on Linux.  I don't deny that they happened to you but that only means that you were unlucky not that everyone is.

If you can't acknowledge the shortcomings of Linux honestly, then I cannot really take your comments seriously.  I realize Windows has any number of technical and ethical issue attached to it, but to the degree that rather simple operations cannot be accomplished under Linux, it will not be the OS choice for the masses.

Now you have crossed the line by calling me a liar.  I have IN EVERY WAY BEEN HONEST in my responses to you.  I may at times make mistakes but I am very honest. 

You may not be aware of it but as Moderator for Engineering I have warned people for stating things as fact about Microsoft that were only their opinion because I refuse to tolerate a false attack on Microsoft or anyone else.  I do my best to treat everyone fairly and honestly even to the point of defending Microsoft when people were critizing them unfairly, I have as you can see from that link at times even praised them.

[Nemesis]

Here is an example for you Lepton of one of the reasons Linux has trouble with some things.  It might open your eyes a bit.

Link to source

ACPI (Advanced Configuration and Power Interface) is an open industry specification co-developed by Hewlett-Packard, Intel, Microsoft, Phoenix, and Toshiba.

ACPI establishes industry-standard interfaces enabling OS-directed configuration, power management, and thermal management of mobile, desktop, and server platforms.

When first published in 1999, ACPI evolved an existing collection of power management BIOS code, Advanced Power Management (APM) application programming interfaces (APIs), PNPBIOS APIs, and Multiprocessor Specification (MPS) tables into a well-defined power management and configuration interface specification.

Notice that this is an industry standard one that Linux should be easily able to work with but hasn't.  Why not?  The answer is linked to below.

Link to source

Text of an E-mail by Bill Gates.  January 24, 1999.

One thing I find myself wondering about is whether we shouldn't try and make the "ACPI" extensions somehow Windows specific.  If seems unfortunate if we do this work and get our partners to do the work and the result is that Linux works great without having to do the work.  Maybe there is no way Io avoid this problem but it does bother me.  Maybe we couid define the APIs so that they work well with NT and not the others even if they are open.  Or maybe we could patent something relaled to this.

Anti-trust violation and perverting of a supposedly open standard by an abusive monopolist specifically to block Linux.  Even 8 years ago Gates saw Linux as a threat and was willing to break the law to stop it.

[Lepton]

Need I say more:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=423158

[Dash Jones]

I don't use ubuntu.  I don't use the ubuntu OS.  I use other linux versions.

Sorry you had a bad experience with Linux.

[GE-Raven]

I don't use ubuntu.  I don't use the ubuntu OS.  I use other linux versions.

Sorry you had a bad experience with Linux.

And this statement (in a nutshell) is why open source is never going to be a viable alternative to the general populous.

"Hey Bob, you are good with computers, can you come over and help me with mine tonight?" 
"What OS you got, Jake?"
"Unbuntu release 6.66"
"Oh... you see I am a redhat man, that or mandrake"
"So you can't help me?"
Well you might want to check their forums, they are pretty good"
"Yeah, well, already did that, and frankly I didn't understand a thing they were talking about."
"well you could always reinstall Redhat..."

 

Open source normally = huge amount of customization.  Which = lack of standardization.  This why I have always said that monopolies are bad, but they sure make life easier.

GE-Raven

[Nemesis]

I don't use ubuntu.  I don't use the ubuntu OS.  I use other linux versions.

Sorry you had a bad experience with Linux.

And this statement (in a nutshell) is why open source is never going to be a viable alternative to the general populous.

"Hey Bob, you are good with computers, can you come over and help me with mine tonight?" 
"What OS you got, Jake?"
"Unbuntu release 6.66"
"Oh... you see I am a redhat man, that or mandrake"
"So you can't help me?"
Well you might want to check their forums, they are pretty good"
"Yeah, well, already did that, and frankly I didn't understand a thing they were talking about."
"well you could always reinstall Redhat..."

 

Open source normally = huge amount of customization.  Which = lack of standardization.  This why I have always said that monopolies are bad, but they sure make life easier.

GE-Raven

Be fair Raven.  Lepton is making a complaint about Linux to two relative novices not experts and when asked what hardware he has didn't respond.  He also is complaining that editing a text file to fix a problem is too difficult.  Would you expect a novice Windows 2000 user to be able to diagnose and fix a Windows XP problem with as little info as Lepton is providing?  Do you really think that editing a text file is any more difficult than editing the registry on Windows?  Not to mention his repeated complaints that a free version of Linux that cannot legally in the U.S. distribute the programs to play streaming media can't do it.  For that he either must learn to acquire the programs and install them himself or BUY a version that can legally contain those programs without being sued to death (as previously mentioned).  I even mentioned a distribution that he could buy to do those things but was ignored.

Linux isn't perfect of course but neither is Windows. 

Linux can do things Windows can't.  Bootable CD/USB Drive versions for example.  So it seems understandable if Windows can do some things Linux can't.  Especially when you take into account Microsoft acting behind the scenes to sabotage Linux as that E-Mail from Bill Gates I linked to makes it clear they do.

[Just plain old Punisher]

Bootable CD/USB Drive versions for example.

I can boot XP from a CD or a USB drive in windows.

[Nemesis]

Bootable CD/USB Drive versions for example.

I can boot XP from a CD or a USB drive in windows.

Are you talking a fully installed and setup with your applications which can be moved from system to system version of XP or something else?  Any links to where there are instructions on how to setup such a thing?  I know some people who would find it useful.

[Sirgod]

THe closest I ever heard was a Ram drive. I messed around with it back in the days of EAW. Basicly the program was always loaded into on board Memory ie. those memory slots where full. and when the os loaded, EAW would already be in memory vs. having to be read from the HD.

It gave me a headache actually.

Stephen

[Nemesis]

I used RAM drives back in the DOS days.  I could run a program from the RAM dirve far faster than from the floppy and then save the data when done.  It was a couple of orders of magnitude faster on disk intensive things.

The DVD playing and streaming media on Linux may just have become a little easier (my interpretation of this) thanks to Microsoft.  Much though they may regret it.

[Just plain old Punisher]

Bootable CD/USB Drive versions for example.

I can boot XP from a CD or a USB drive in windows.

Are you talking a fully installed and setup with your applications which can be moved from system to system version of XP or something else?  Any links to where there are instructions on how to setup such a thing?  I know some people who would find it useful.

http://www.informationweek.com/windows/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177102101&pgno=1

Your computer has to support booting to a USB device.

For windows XP, step by step instructions for installing XP on a thumb drive.

As far as installing it on an external USB hard drive, just pop in the XP CD and install the OS on the USB hard drive. Of course, porting it from system to system with different hardware would pose some small problems. You would have to have the computers motherboard, video, sound, network, etc drivers ready to go.

As far as activation is concerned, well, you'd have to work that out on your own. I just use a site license key.

[Lepton]

I don't use ubuntu.  I don't use the ubuntu OS.  I use other linux versions.

Sorry you had a bad experience with Linux.

And this statement (in a nutshell) is why open source is never going to be a viable alternative to the general populous.

"Hey Bob, you are good with computers, can you come over and help me with mine tonight?" 
"What OS you got, Jake?"
"Unbuntu release 6.66"
"Oh... you see I am a redhat man, that or mandrake"
"So you can't help me?"
Well you might want to check their forums, they are pretty good"
"Yeah, well, already did that, and frankly I didn't understand a thing they were talking about."
"well you could always reinstall Redhat..."

 

Open source normally = huge amount of customization.  Which = lack of standardization.  This why I have always said that monopolies are bad, but they sure make life easier.

GE-Raven

Be fair Raven.  Lepton is making a complaint about Linux to two relative novices not experts and when asked what hardware he has didn't respond.  He also is complaining that editing a text file to fix a problem is too difficult.  Would you expect a novice Windows 2000 user to be able to diagnose and fix a Windows XP problem with as little info as Lepton is providing?  Do you really think that editing a text file is any more difficult than editing the registry on Windows?  Not to mention his repeated complaints that a free version of Linux that cannot legally in the U.S. distribute the programs to play streaming media can't do it.  For that he either must learn to acquire the programs and install them himself or BUY a version that can legally contain those programs without being sued to death (as previously mentioned).  I even mentioned a distribution that he could buy to do those things but was ignored.

Linux isn't perfect of course but neither is Windows. 

Linux can do things Windows can't.  Bootable CD/USB Drive versions for example.  So it seems understandable if Windows can do some things Linux can't.  Especially when you take into account Microsoft acting behind the scenes to sabotage Linux as that E-Mail from Bill Gates I linked to makes it clear they do.

Ah. excuse me.  I was not asking you to troubleshoot anything for me, nor is my hardware an issue, so I can't see how I am obligated to respond to any particular question you pose.

I am not sure why you think that a free OS should somehow be held to a different standard than a purchased OS.  I thought we were all in agreement that all computers should come with a free OS, but I guess what you really want is for people to buy linux and I can 100% guarantee you that this is not going to happen from what I have seen of free linux distribution.  Please outline for me the significant differences between OpenSuse and some paid version of that particular distro.  Is it merely support and if so, what quality of support?

As I said, my point is simple.  As long as you can break your OS, have to manually edit config file, and futz about to get simple multimedia functionality, linux is going nowhere.  Now, if your contention is that paid versions of a linux OS has solved these problems, then I'd say whoever is producing those distros needs a slap in the head for not porting such solutions over to the free versions of the distro.  Or, if your contention is that different distros of linux handle some things better than others, then let me say that MPlayer is MPlayer, VLC is VLC, gstreamer is gstreamer, and their crappy plugin functionality with Mozilla-based browsers I would guess would be universal to any distro.

I have no doubt that Linux does any number of things better than Windows.  I'd prefer to run Linux, however as I said to the degree that things are difficult to do in Linux, people will choose Windows.  Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

[Lepton]

Here's what you have to do to run ATI drives under OpenSUSE:

http://www.suse.de/~sndirsch/ati-installer-HOWTO.html

ATI Installer HOWTO for SUSE/Novell users
openSUSE 10.2
If you want or need to use the latest and greatest ATI driver, continue here .

Use

  YaST -> Software -> Change installation Source -> Add

  Protocol: http
  Server Name: : www2.ati.com
  Directory on Server: suse/10.2

to add the ATI http server as additional installation source.
Now use

  YaST -> Software -> Install and Delete Software

to install the ATI/fglrx driver. Select the following packages:

  x11-video-fglrxG01
  ati-fglrxG01-kmp-<kernel-flavor>

<kernel-flavor> depends on your installed kernel. Check with
"uname -r" for installed default/smp/bigsmp kernel. Use "sax2 -r"
for X.Org configuration.

SUSE LINUX 10.1 / SLES10 / SLED10
If you want or need to use the latest and greatest ATI driver, continue here .

Update your Kernel via YOU (YaST Online Update). Use

  YaST -> Software -> Change installation Source -> Add

  Protocol: http
  Server Name: : www2.ati.com
  Directory on Server: suse/sle10

to add the ATI http server as additional installation source.
Now use

  YaST -> Software -> Install and Delete Software

to install the ATI/fglrx driver. Select the following packages:

  x11-video-fglrx
  ati-fglrx-kmp-<kernel-flavor>

<kernel-flavor> depends on your installed kernel. Check with
"uname -r" for installed default/smp/bigsmp kernel. Use "sax2 -r"
for X.Org configuration.

Manual driver installation for SUSE LINUX 10.0, SLES9, NLD9 and earlier

Since ATI driver release 8.16.20 the ATI installer needs to be used
to create SUSE/Novell RPMs. Download the ATI installer from the ATI
website.

  http://www.ati.com --> Drivers & Software --> Linux

It is possible to create RPMs for the following SUSE/Novell distros.
This information has been retrieved by using the installer itself:

  ati-driver-installer-8.36.5-x86.x86_64.run --listpkg

[...]
SuSE Packages:
        SuSE/NLD9-IA32      NLD9
        SuSE/SLES9-IA32      SLES9
        SuSE/SUSE91-IA32   SUSE 9.1
        SuSE/NLD9-AMD64      NLD9 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SLES9-AMD64   SLES9 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SUSE91-AMD64   SUSE 9.1 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SUSE100-IA32   SUSE 10.0
        SuSE/SUSE92-IA32   SUSE 9.2
        SuSE/SUSE93-IA32   SUSE 9.3
        SuSE/SUSE100-AMD64   SUSE 10.0 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SUSE92-AMD64   SUSE 9.2 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SUSE93-AMD64   SUSE 9.3 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SLED10-IA32   SLED10
        SuSE/SLES10-IA32   SLES10
        SuSE/SUSE101-IA32   SUSE 10.1
        SuSE/SLED10-AMD64   SLED10 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SLES10-AMD64   SLES10 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SUSE101-AMD64   SUSE 10.1 (x86_64)
        SuSE/SUSE102-IA32   openSUSE 10.2
        SuSE/SUSE102-AMD64   openSUSE 10.2 (x86_64)

Example:
--------
Create a RPM for SUSE 10.0 (i386) by using the installer.

  ./ati-driver-installer-8.36.5-x86.x86_64.run --buildpkg SuSE/SUSE100-IA32

Afterwards install the created RPM by using the rpm command. In the
mentioned example above this would be:

  rpm -Uhv fglrx_6_8_0_SUSE100-8.36.5-1.i386.rpm

The postinstall script of this RPM will try to compile the required
kernel module. If this fails, you'll get a message how to proceed.

You still need to configure the driver with SaX2. Details can be found
in /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/README.SuSE.

Unfortunately you need to recompile the "fglrx" kernel module right
after any kernel (security) update. Use "fglrx-kernel-build.sh" for
this.

That's just so user-friendly especially if there are kernel changes.  To get latest Windows ATI drivers, I just go to the ATI site and get an little program that tests and probes my hardware and selects the proper one.  That's user-friendly.

[Lepton]

And surprise, surprise, I check here (http://www.novell.com/products/linuxpackages/desktop10/i386/index_group.html) as to what comes with SLED and guess what, it's all the same stuff that comes with any other free linux distribution including Ubuntu.  Yes, let me pay $150 bucks for a 3-year, one device license just so that beryl may or may not work on my hardware, or that I break my OS trying to configure it to work with beryl.  That's cost-effective.

[Sirgod]

Man I don't know, Lepton and Nemesis both have good points here.

the only thing caught me off guard here was this.

Ah. excuse me.  I was not asking you to troubleshoot anything for me, nor is my hardware an issue, so I can't see how I am obligated to respond to any particular question you pose.

Man Nem as I took it was offering too help, and you kinda snapped at him, because you both had a differant opinion. Dude, a thanks but no thanks would have worked alright there. Guys an OS is not something to argue over , or let it get to you.

Like I said, good points all over the place though, That post with the ATI drivers actually made me laugh, as I have an ATI card that gives me nothing but Trouble (signal loss, It shuts my monitor down at wierd times)

Stephen

[Dash Jones]

To get latest Windows ATI drivers, I just go to the ATI site and get an little program that tests and probes my hardware and selects the proper one.  That's user-friendly.

I'm glad it's so easy for you...cause Ati is a [edit: pain] for me.  I only use Ati cards on ones which others already have them on because their cards are great, but their drivers are more pain in the arse than even some of the Integrated ones as far as drivers go and getting games to work (half the time with new releases they DON'T work, because Ati decides they have to update drivers for that game TOO work).

Yes, I'm an Nvidia user if one couldn't guess.

 

Only reason is the drivers for Ati and ease of use for Nvidia.

I did find this statement funny

As long as you can break your OS, have to manually edit config file, and futz about to get simple multimedia functionality, linux is going nowhere.

I could come over and break Windows in about 10 seconds if you wanted to...from a non-adminstrative account even.  It happens all the time, keeps a lot of businesses IN business even.  The ease of windows is available in Linux, the DIFFERENCE is that most computers now are issued with Windows already configured for that particular computer.  Most people don't have to install windows and then hunt down the drivers for that computer themselves, then configure and make sure the hardware is correct for windows.  It's preinstalled at the store for them already, and if they were smart and got restore CDs, then the restore CDs are all configured as well. 

The instant they have to install themselves is when I start getting calls from friends to help them configure their computers, and then if I don't have time I tell to take it to some business that can help them instead.

You had a bad experience with Linux and I'm sorry you feel that way, Linux IS growing in popularity slowly, and Vista probably will help it grow even more.

However, Windows is only big because most people getting a computer get it with their computer.  If they didn't, then you'd probably see Window's popularity start dying off a wee bit.

I can acquisce that you have some opinions on Linux and that's fine, but some of your opinions don't jive with some of the things I've seen either so we can all be happy knowing we have different opinions.

[Sirgod]

Damn Dash you have me convinced, I'm buying an Abacus next monday.

Stephen

[Dash Jones]

Abacus's work great actually.

Very simple, and I unless one deliberately tries to break it (or if one is under the age of 5 in which case it's a given it will break it seems) it's one of the most durable items you can utilize for calculations.

For the more advanced can I suggest a slide ruler?

[KBF MalaK]

Bootable CD/USB Drive versions for example.

I can boot XP from a CD or a USB drive in windows.

Are you talking a fully installed and setup with your applications which can be moved from system to system version of XP or something else?  Any links to where there are instructions on how to setup such a thing?  I know some people who would find it useful.

http://www.informationweek.com/windows/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177102101&pgno=1

Your computer has to support booting to a USB device.

For windows XP, step by step instructions for installing XP on a thumb drive.

As far as installing it on an external USB hard drive, just pop in the XP CD and install the OS on the USB hard drive. Of course, porting it from system to system with different hardware would pose some small problems. You would have to have the computers motherboard, video, sound, network, etc drivers ready to go.

As far as activation is concerned, well, you'd have to work that out on your own. I just use a site license key.

Just curious but can XP be installed in a 'dual boot' configuration to a thumb drive ??

I've never tried it and honestly avoid XP like a plague as it's lacking in true DOS compatability I require for some of my projects, but may consider it if I can put it on a thumb drive. Currently I'm running 98se over a full DOS 6.22 install but have it on a removable HD enclosure that I swap with an XP installed drive. The 2 drives are never connected together in the same system, but a 98 HD with an XP thumbdrive (dual boot) opens up a few possibilities but I don't have time to see if it works.

[Nemesis]

Ah. excuse me.  I was not asking you to troubleshoot anything for me, nor is my hardware an issue, so I can't see how I am obligated to respond to any particular question you pose.

Well Lepton I am about to let you into an open secret about the Dynaverse Forums.  They are full of people who when you say you have a problem will try to help you.  Of course you are not obligated to take such help.

It would be nice however if early on you were to indicate that you aren't actually stating a problem that help would be appreciated on but just ranting. 

I am not sure why you think that a free OS should somehow be held to a different standard than a purchased OS. 

Do you hold a free concert in the part to the same standards you hold a concert that you paid to see?  If you were given a free car would you complain that it didn't have the options you would have chosen?

I thought we were all in agreement that all computers should come with a free OS, but I guess what you really want is for people to buy linux and I can 100% guarantee you that this is not going to happen from what I have seen of free linux distribution. 

Whatever makes you think that anyone wants only free Operating systems or free software in general?  I personally like competition.  I'm using OpenSuSe as stated.  I have bought Linux versions in the past and would buy them in the future if they were being sold locally.

As I said, my point is simple.  As long as you can break your OS, have to manually edit config file, and futz about to get simple multimedia functionality, linux is going nowhere.

Link 1

Here is a link from Microsoft telling you how to handle it when Vista stops responding during bootup.  So it is an example of Windows "breaking" without referring to "ancient versions" as you objected to earlier.

Link 2

Here is another example of Window breaking.  This time when creating a partition with XP when the system is set to dual boot with Vista.  Microsofts solution "don't do that".  How about fixing XP so it actually works or fix Vista so it works with XP?

Link 3

Here is another XP one.  How to fix (by editing the registry) your DVD/CD which has just "stopped working".

Link 4

This is a good one.  How to fix a corrupt registry in XP.  It involves dropping to the command line from the install CD and doing extensive copying and deleting files by hand.

All this show is that Windows too breaks and it is acknowledged by Microsoft and that you can have to jump through a lot of hoops to fix things - Just like Linux.

Now, if your contention is that paid versions of a linux OS has solved these problems, then I'd say whoever is producing those distros needs a slap in the head for not porting such solutions over to the free versions of the distro.  Or, if your contention is that different distros of linux handle some things better than others, then let me say that MPlayer is MPlayer, VLC is VLC, gstreamer is gstreamer, and their crappy plugin functionality with Mozilla-based browsers I would guess would be universal to any distro.

I have stated repeatedly already that certain functions CANNOT BY LAW be included in the free distributions without the distributors being sued to death over patents.  I think that is pretty plain and easy to understand.

If you had a patent that you licensed to software companies what would you do to those who don't pay your fees but violate your license?  Would you perhaps sue them?  That is exactly why such software is not distributed in the free versions - they don't have the legal right to do so.   Commercial versions because they are paid for can use some of that income to pay the licensing fees.

And surprise, surprise, I check here (http://www.novell.com/products/linuxpackages/desktop10/i386/index_group.html) as to what comes with SLED and guess what, it's all the same stuff that comes with any other free linux distribution including Ubuntu.  Yes, let me pay $150 bucks for a 3-year, one device license just so that beryl may or may not work on my hardware, or that I break my OS trying to configure it to work with beryl.  That's cost-effective.

I repeatedly suggested LINSPIRE for some very good reasons.

1/ It is intended for the home user
2/ It has licenses to allow it to include media playing abilities.
3/ It sells more media playing ability as well

Just out of curiosity what type of software do you think that "Novell SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop" will include?  That word "Enterprise" is very important.  You see it tells what SLED is configured for - (big) business desktop use.  Would you really need DVD playing and streaming media on the average business desktop OS?  I don't think so my self.

[Nemesis]

For the more advanced can I suggest a slide rule?

Haven't used one in ages.  However I did win a few bets by being faster with the slide rule than people were with their calculators (until people learned not to try me ).  The calculator had more digits but was definitely slower and most of the time the extra digits are not relevant anyhow.

[Sirgod]

Linespire s only 13 bucks also... http://www.pcclub.com/product_details.cfm?itemno=A7202008

It's going on a PC as soon as  I finish building another one.

Linspire is a full-featured computer operating system based on Linux and designed for desktop and laptop computers. Based on Linux, Linspire provides a stable, virus-free computing experience, yet is incredibly easy-to-use. Bundled software includes a Microsoft Office file-compatible office suite, a powerful Internet and email suite, complete song and photo programs, media players for viewing animation and videos, and much more.

Use Linspire to do things on the Web, create and share documents, work with graphics, play music, organize digital photos, view rich multimedia files and easily connect to networks and peripherals.

· Comparable to Microsoft XP at much lower price.
· Comes with a complete Microsoft Office file-compatible office suite for editing and sharing word processing, spreadsheet, presentation and drawing files.
· Exclusive CNR Technology (“click and run”) makes installing, updating and managing Linux software literally as easy as one mouse click.
· Familiar look that will feel comfortable for Microsoft Windows users on the surface, although powerful Linux runs“under the hood.”
· Tabbed Internet Browsing with Popup Blocking reduces screen clutter and speeds Internet activities
· E-Mail with Smart Junk Mail Filter
· Optional built-in virus protection and web filtering services available
· Instant messaging, which allows for signing on with multiple messaging services, (AOL’s AIM, ICQ, Yahoo Messenger)
· Free Internet phone calling
· Download and listen to MP3’s and other audio files
· Burn your own custom CD’s
· Watch video files with the built-in players
· Interactive multimedia tutorials walk users through using Linspire for the first time
· Specialized laptop features for advanced power management and wifi
· Installs in under 10 minutes

Stephen

[Nemesis]

Linespire s only 13 bucks also... http://www.pcclub.com/product_details.cfm?itemno=A7202008

It's going on a PC as soon as  I finish building another one.
Stephen

Did you notice this part? 

*Must be purchased with any hardware*

Depending what they mean it could be anything from a full system to buying a token piece of hardware for $1.

This part:

· Exclusive CNR Technology (“click and run”) makes installing, updating and managing Linux software literally as easy as one mouse click.

Is no longer valid.  They have begun to make deals to put it on other versions of Linux starting with Ubuntu.  They are also basing future versions of Linspire on Ubuntu.  So it is no longer "exclusive" to Linspire.

[Lepton]

Nemesis,

Can you cite anything that doesn't have to do with Vista?  To the degree that you are going to rely on Vista horror stories to make your point is to the degree that I won't be taking you seriously.

[Lepton]

PSH!!!  Even the Linspire CEO says that Dell should not sell Linspire on their hardware due to the Linux market:

http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter.php

He recommends Ubuntu, OpenSuse, or Fedora.

Also Linspire is Debian/Ubuntu-derivative distro.  Why would anyone pay for Linspire when they can get Kubuntu, as Linspire uses KDE.  What am I paying for?  Nothing that I can see.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis,

Can you cite anything that doesn't have to do with Vista?  To the degree that you are going to rely on Vista horror stories to make your point is to the degree that I won't be taking you seriously.

I gave you 4 links to Microsoft provided solutions only one was for Vista the other 3 for XP.  You complained about Win2k and Win98 issues being ancient so I gave you current XP and Vista issues what more can be done if you refuse to accept that Windows does have issues for some people?  Microsoft accepts that why can't you? 

[Nemesis]

PSH!!!  Even the Linspire CEO says that Dell should not sell Linspire on their hardware due to the Linux market:

http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter.php

He recommends Ubuntu, OpenSuse, or Fedora.

As stated earlier:

They are also basing future versions of Linspire on Ubuntu.  So it is no longer "exclusive" to Linspire.

For him there is profit by Dell shipping based on Ubuntu as he provides the “click and run” service which is where he makes his money to Ubuntu.  Canonical (makers of Ubuntu) provide Dell with support, Linspire provides the add on software where Linspire makes its money.

We have explained to Dell that we see Linux in two different markets. The first we call the "Linux Enthusiasts Market." This is where Linux is today. The second is the "Linux Mainstream Market." This market is likely one to three years away. Because Dell is going to put their toe into the desktop Linux PC waters now, they should offer a product that is geared towards where that market is today...the Linux Enthusiasts.

Advice to Dell from Linspire - sell to the market that is now and prepare for the market that is maturing.  Good advice.  It also matches what Dell customers asked Dell for - Ubuntu - Fedora or SuSE on Dell.  Customers didn't ask for Linspire.

[Lepton]

And wow, here's a list of the packages available at install under Linspire:

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=linspire

It's the same crap as every other distro.  I see MPlayer in there and I can guarantee you that unless they built their own plugin (which I doubt, wouldn't they advertise that fact?), MPlayer is not a good platform for streaming multimedia as accessed via Firefox.  This is mere dumbed-down Kubuntu.  Why would I pay 50 bucks for this?  And that 50 bucks doesn't even include OS updates.  How anyone gets away with packaging open-source/free software and tries to sell it to you is beyond me.

[Lepton]

2/ It has licenses to allow it to include media playing abilities.
3/ It sells more media playing ability as well

All that brought to you by xine which is free.  Why am I gonna pay for xine??!!

[Sirgod]

Linespire s only 13 bucks also... http://www.pcclub.com/product_details.cfm?itemno=A7202008

It's going on a PC as soon as  I finish building another one.
Stephen

Did you notice this part? 

*Must be purchased with any hardware*

Depending what they mean it could be anything from a full system to buying a token piece of hardware for $1.

This part:

· Exclusive CNR Technology (“click and run”) makes installing, updating and managing Linux software literally as easy as one mouse click.

Is no longer valid.  They have begun to make deals to put it on other versions of Linux starting with Ubuntu.  They are also basing future versions of Linspire on Ubuntu.  So it is no longer "exclusive" to Linspire.

I completely missed that BRo, good eye. still I buy so much from the North May store there, adn the manager is a friend of mine so...

Lepton, I had completly forgot the link to distro Watch. Thanks man.

Stephen

[Nemesis]

2/ It has licenses to allow it to include media playing abilities.
3/ It sells more media playing ability as well

All that brought to you by xine which is free.  Why am I gonna pay for xine??!!

Xine can't be bundled with WMA (Windows Media Audio) or deCSS  (DVD decoding) ability without a LICENSE ON THE PATENTS which as I keep repeating the free versions CANNOT LEGALLY do.  What part of that is unclear?

Why doesn't Microsoft just copy the iPod software functions and the iPod encryption?  Simply because the CAN'T legally do so just as the free software cannot do the same to either the iPod, WMA or DVD playing. 

[Nemesis]

I completely missed that BRo, good eye. still I buy so much from the North May store there, adn the manager is a friend of mine so...

Stephen

I have enough experience with these "special" prices that I know the usual hooks so I looked for them.

[Lepton]

2/ It has licenses to allow it to include media playing abilities.
3/ It sells more media playing ability as well

All that brought to you by xine which is free.  Why am I gonna pay for xine??!!

Xine can't be bundled with WMA (Windows Media Audio) or deCSS  (DVD decoding) ability without a LICENSE ON THE PATENTS which as I keep repeating the free versions CANNOT LEGALLY do.  What part of that is unclear?

Why doesn't Microsoft just copy the iPod software functions and the iPod encryption?  Simply because the CAN'T legally do so just as the free software cannot do the same to either the iPod, WMA or DVD playing. 

PSH, I think you missed the point where xine recommends that you download the proprietary codecs from the Mplayer site, where CNR was designed by the Linspire guys to allow linux users to download proprietary software and codecs with one click and then passed this tech onto all the other linux distros, and where I can play DVDs without a problem with MPlayer.  I could care less about the legalities.

My point is simple and you keep missing it.  To the degree that one can rather easily break a Linux OS, break X windows, have to edit files manually to get screen resolutions, etc, etc i.e. to the degree that Linux is not user friendly, it will not be the OS of choice.  It's going to have to work better than Windows for people to switch.  I am well aware of the limitations of Windows.  I am well aware of the limitations of Linux.  However, until I can see Linux as being more stable and easier to use I cannot make it my regular OS and I think many feel that way.

By the by, Linspire is 60 bucks on their site which includes absolutely no OS updates and you are basically buying chopped-down Kubuntu, whereas SLED is 50 bucks for basically the same deal.  However SLED is from Novell and we all know Novell and Novell is making significant investments in Linux.  So why would I buy chopped-down Kubuntu from some company I have never heard of when I could get SLED for less from a well-known company that isn't going to evaporate overnight?

Recommending Linspire is about the dumbest thing I can think of to recommend.

[Sirgod]

I understand where your coming from and as weak as this arguement that I'll make is, It's still there.

One thing about using Linux, is I am able to learn more way way way more on how the pc works. Now for the PC novice, Take my sis in law who calles that big Case on her desk a Hard Drive, It wouldn't be right for her.

I've never been scared of a learning curve, But any build seems to me a challenge. That being said, remember, Guys like me and Scott Bruno where Micromon, amiga, C128/64 types of guys, and we wrote miles of code in Hex no less.

This new stuff, with Windows 3.11 and even Linux, blows my mind. Hell I have Basic 6.0 and it falls far behind what i was used to doing.

Bleh, You both have good points, I might still do a dual boot, just to learn more about alternative OS's. Hey I tell ya though, I still use open office ahead of Microsofts office to this day.

Stephen

[Nemesis]

To the degree that one can rather easily break a Linux OS, break X windows, have to edit files manually to get screen resolutions, etc, etc i.e. to the degree that Linux is not user friendly, it will not be the OS of choice.

Refer back to the links to Microsoft and their fixes they show that Windows breaks every bit as much as Linux (which you ignore).  So how is it any more user friendly even ignoring the DRM in Windows?

I could care less about the legalities.

The distributors however have to care about legalities as they have no reason to risk economic ruin for your benefit.

By the by, Linspire is 60 bucks on their site which includes absolutely no OS updates

False.

Look at this line from Stephens post:

· Exclusive CNR Technology (“click and run”) makes installing, updating and managing Linux software literally as easy as one mouse click.

There are two levels the free and the paid for.  Linspire can use the FREE version of Click and Run which gives security updates.

You complain that the free Ubuntu has TOO MANY updates now you complain that the commercial Linspire has too few?  The Linux community are not the 3 Bears and you can't expect them to customize everything for you personally and that seems to be all that would satisfy you. 

I hope you are happy when Microsoft blocks your further use of XP and forces your "upgrade" to Vista.  Others such as myself will be happily on Linux, BSD or Mac.

I'm tired of your ignoring the flaws in Windows while nitpicking about things that are only an issue for you personally and I see no reason to continue this discussion.

[Lepton]

Really.  I have no doubt of the flaws of Windows.  What I tire of is your unabashed optimism about Linux.  That is mainly why I came into this thread.  To offer a reality check.  Can you acknowledge the problems with Linux in an objective fashion?  I don't think so.  If I pick up a Linux-based magazine I can see a more thorough and critical assessment of Linux and those gents have some stake in seeing Linux succeed as they are publishing a magazine on that very subject.

As to the legalities, Ubuntu made a conscious choice not to include proprietary programs, etc in their distro, yet those proprietary things are easily obtained and in fact the functionality to install those packages are now wrapped directly into Synaptic as far as I know.  Ubuntu is not seriously concerned with the legalities and neither is anyone else.

My point regarding Linspire and OS updates is that you are paying for a distro that is not going to give you a full OS update.  Yes, security updates.  That's it.  If Linspire is based on Ubuntu, uses the same damn packages, why am I going to pay 60 bucks for some pseudo-legal distro, when I can get full distribution upgrades from Ubuntu for free, like moving from 6.10 (Edgy) to 7.04 (Feisty)????

[Sarek]

In the end, it doesn't matter if Linux is superior to Windows, it's lacking in the thing that counts the most: inertia.  Windows has 90% of the market and without a compelling reason to move to Linux the average user won't.  All Windows has to be is good enough.  People want a machine which, right out of the box, will play their games, allow them to use e-mail, surf the web, and run Microsoft Office.

I can understand why people are so enamored with Linux and disdainful of Windows, Microsoft is working hard to push me to Linux.  Currently my primary PC runs XP and my secondary runs Linux and I see a time coming when the roles will be reversed.  But I don't think I'll be totally abandoning Windows any time soon.

[Nemesis]

In the end, it doesn't matter if Linux is superior to Windows, it's lacking in the thing that counts the most: inertia. 

Is it inertia or active (and illegal) abuse of its existing dominant position by Microsoft?  There are very good reasons why Microsoft keeps being convicted of wrong doing.  The E-Mail i linked to earlier by Bill Gates is one example.

Here is another:

Link to pdf

We reccomend that we *informally* plant the bug of FUD in theirears.  "Have you heard about the problems with DR DOS?"  "

Active planting of FUD by Microsoft has been documented in the past against other competitors.  Why should we believe it has stopped?  (look up the "Get the Facts" campaing by Microsoft).

[Sarek]

It would be interesting to know the percentage of people who choose Windows or Linux when given a choice of operating systems for a PC they are buying or building.

[Dash Jones]

In the end, it doesn't matter if Linux is superior to Windows, it's lacking in the thing that counts the most: inertia.  Windows has 90% of the market and without a compelling reason to move to Linux the average user won't.  All Windows has to be is good enough.  People want a machine which, right out of the box, will play their games, allow them to use e-mail, surf the web, and run Microsoft Office.

I can understand why people are so enamored with Linux and disdainful of Windows, Microsoft is working hard to push me to Linux.  Currently my primary PC runs XP and my secondary runs Linux and I see a time coming when the roles will be reversed.  But I don't think I'll be totally abandoning Windows any time soon.

Well with XP it did.  I found out very quickly Vista does NOT do that, which is what made me finally start up a Linux machine.  Vista was that item that pushed me over the wall.  I can get more of my games to play on a Linux machine than on Vista, now THAT's sad.  In addition, for the new Office, unless you SPECIFY that you want a document that is backwards compatible with the older versions...it isn't compatible...which nerfs some of the universality of Office, especially for school.

Vista sucks...at least until they get a patch.  If I'm lucky enough people will be so disgusted with Vista MS will be forced to come out with an SP that will at least make games playable, if nothing else...otherwise it's probably going to be solely Mac and Linux for me from now on after they stop selling XP completely in the next few months.

[Nemesis]

In addition, for the new Office, unless you SPECIFY that you want a document that is backwards compatible with the older versions...it isn't compatible...which nerfs some of the universality of Office, especially for school.

The same for burning CD and DVDs it burns by default in a Vista only format.

[Nemesis]

Video drivers on Linux should improve now.  Recently Intel announced that they would open their video drivers but they don't have top line cards.  Now AMD has committed to making open source drivers for ATi video cards.

Link to full article

AMD will soon deliver open graphics drivers, said Henri Richard just a few minutes ago, and the audience at the opening keynote of the Red Hat Summit broke into applause and cheers. Richard, AMD’s executive vice president of sales and marketing, promised: “I’m here to commit to you that it’s going to get done.” He also promised that AMD is “going to be very proactive in changing way we interface with the Linux community.”

How long before nVidea has no choice but to do the same or cede the Linux market to AMD and Intel?

[Nemesis]

http://www.informationweek.com/windows/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177102101&pgno=1

Your computer has to support booting to a USB device.

For windows XP, step by step instructions for installing XP on a thumb drive.

As far as installing it on an external USB hard drive, just pop in the XP CD and install the OS on the USB hard drive. Of course, porting it from system to system with different hardware would pose some small problems. You would have to have the computers motherboard, video, sound, network, etc drivers ready to go.

As far as activation is concerned, well, you'd have to work that out on your own. I just use a site license key.

I finally had a chance to read through this.  It wasn't specific on whether the boot USB device could be used generically.  I suspect that this system would not be portable between non identical systems but there is a way around that.

To make a portable Windows you could create a Linux bootable DVD/USB Drive setup to run Windows in a Virtual Machine.  The simulated hardware seen by Windows wouldn't change as Linux would handle the actual hardware and the simulation.

[Dash Jones]

That's an interesting idea.  I already run Mepis off CD, but how would I run a Virtual Machine to simulate a Windows enviroment for XP?

[Nemesis]

I just came up with the idea last night and haven't much idea of how to implement it.  I've never tried a virtual machine yet though that could change.  If you try it let us know how it works out.

[KBF MalaK]

Question for the Linux guru's:

Can Linux be setup on a G4 Mac ?? (I'll spare ya's the long explanation as to why I'm asking )

[Nemesis]

I'm far from being a Linux Guru and know even less about Mac.  The G4 is I believe a PowerPC chip?  Debian still has PowerPC versions.  Yellowdog Linux and I think MKLinux are the big Mac Linux versions though whether they still support the PowerPC I don't know.

[KBF-Kurok]

Ubuntu does also you have to have at least 256 megs of ram to install from the Live Cd tho

[Bonk]

Try to do something simple like listen to streaming radio over the web.  Windows; it's very easy.  Linux; nearly impossible.

I just did a fresh Kubuntu install last night. To get mp3 streams playing I followed a few simple steps:

1) Google "play mp3s on kubuntu".
2) Read answer: http://www.kubuntu.org/faq.php#mp3s
3) Launch Adept packagage manager, enable the internet repositories (main, universe, restricted and multiverse) and select libxine1-ffmpeg for installation and apply the changes.
4) Go to http://www.radioparadise.com and click on the 16k mp3 stream (I'm on dial-up), launch in Amarok.
5) Listen to internet radio.

So I had to do a google search and install some codecs. A bit of a bother, but certainly not nearly impossible. Perhaps things have progressed since April.

(I am slightly ashamed to be using Kubuntu, instead of a classic like Slackware, FreeBSD or QNX... though I figured I'd see what all this Ubuntu fuss was all about, but I prefer KDE - thus Kubuntu)

EDIT: it's funny, come to think of it, one of the first things I do evaluating a new desktop OS is launch the default browser go to radio paradise and launch an mp3 stream in the default media player. QNX is still the winner for efficiency in such a usability test. The native web browser and media player in QNX are very tight and minimalist, and work incredibly well. You can run over 20 instances of the media player with ease, all playing simultaneously... the result is pretty freaky.

[Nemesis]

You dug pretty deep to resurrect this old thread. 

I've been using LinuxMint - KDE Community edition, it is a derivative of Ubuntu.  It is not legal in the U.S. and some other countries because it comes with codecs installed for MP3 and DVD players.  I'm quite pleased with it.  It pushed me over to primarily using my Linux machine instead of the Windows 2000 one. 

What do you think of the up coming KDE 4.0 release?  Current reports claim a 40% decrease in memory usage.

[Panzergranate]

A friend of mine runs Unix and has been "preaching" to me to "see the light" and convert.

What I find facinating is how fast Unix starts up compared Windows XP and that he can run for hours without a single crash!!

The thing is Windows is like an unhappy marriage, where the sexy girl at the altar ballooned out the moment the ink hit the papr on the marriage licence.

You know that she's now fat, slow and gives you hastle, but you stick with her because you're frightened to change and so just put up with all the failings.

At least with Windows you can guarantee that it will suck everytime you use it!!

So far my Windows Vista HP has only locked up 5 times since we had the laptop in June, needing the battery to be removed to break out of it.

Compared to the few dozen crashes one of my friend's has had with XP, this is an improvement.

[Bonk]

You dug pretty deep to resurrect this old thread. 

I've been using LinuxMint - KDE Community edition, it is a derivative of Ubuntu.  It is not legal in the U.S. and some other countries because it comes with codecs installed for MP3 and DVD players.  I'm quite pleased with it.  It pushed me over to primarily using my Linux machine instead of the Windows 2000 one. 

What do you think of the up coming KDE 4.0 release?  Current reports claim a 40% decrease in memory usage.

I was searching for something else, came across this and thought I'd comment.

I saw that story about 40% decrease in memory usage, but that story was a weak analysis of memory usage and should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, I am very much looking forward to KDE 4.

To be honest, what I want to see of KDE 4 is its suite of apps ported to windows (enabled by latest Qt4), ultimately I would like to be able to run KDE on windows and choose my desktop manager as on linux.

[Panzergranate]

One of the things in a hard drive's on board E2PROM is that it has two settings...... configured for Windows and not configured for Windows.

I've not tried it but if the hard drive is stuck on a HD E2PROM progaramming rig (1 own 4 of the things) and is re-configured to non-Windows use, will Linux work better on it??

I know that Unix does apparently, hence why the option is there.

This would make for an interesting experiment with a before and after time trial test.

[Nemesis]

Necro bump

1/ Boot from a live install on a thumb drive
 
then

2/ Run the install onto my netbook

while doing so

3/ Post online from the netbook

while

4/ Playing a  you tube video

All on the same net book.