Topic: Are escort ships cheap?

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Is it just me, or are the escort ships in sfc2/op unfair?
I was flying a Klingon yesterday fighting feds, and it seems like half of the ships I face are those escort variaties (DE, NEC, etc). They go so fast and when I try to stay far away in a sabre dance they just kill my rear shield with all the ph1/phG's. There's no running from them dangit!
They do add variety to the game, but are there tactics against them?

[Centurus]

What were you flying at the time?  If you were flying a light cruiser or frigate, and you were going against escort AI, then there's not much I can tell you. 

I've been flying the Fed escorts personally.  When they get in close, and those phaser Gs let loose, they'll rip a hole into enemy shields and even into enemy hulls in one pass. 

I guess if you're flying against escorts, you need to be in a heavy cruiser or higher, with shields strong enough to take a little pounding if you get in close.

Remember, when flying against AI, and if you know your ship's arcs and weapons very well, just get in close, reinforce all your shields, and let loose with everything you've got.  Don't do this against actual players though.  You will get killed in 2 minutes or less.

[FPF-DieHard]

Is it just me, or are the escort ships in sfc2/op unfair?
I was flying a Klingon yesterday fighting feds, and it seems like half of the ships I face are those escort variaties (DE, NEC, etc). They go so fast and when I try to stay far away in a sabre dance they just kill my rear shield with all the ph1/phG's. There's no running from them dangit!
They do add variety to the game, but are there tactics against them?

In the SGO/Dh123 mod escorts have been nerfed a little bit to make them less silly.  As a result, few people fly them these days.  The AI seems to like them a lot thought but we really can't control WTF the mission brings into the game.

IMHO, escorts are not ubber at all in PvP.  An F-NEC, for example, is a coffin when going against a plasma boat.   A D7W/FDW/DWL will own it as well as they can have more Phaser 1s firing backwards than the Escrot has forward.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Using ECM will take the sting out a little as well.

[Don Karnage]

with shipedit you can lower the price of your ships 

[Lieutenant_Q]

Indeed Gatling phasers are not the end all beat all.  ECM and holding range will make a Phaser G seem almost worthless.  Keep yourself at range 3 or 4, with a positive shift of even one and the Phaser-G is no more dangerous than a Phaser 1.

I don't know if its supposed to happen that way, but every time I fly a ship with a Phaser G on it, they seem to be the first weapon to go once you start taking hull hits.

[FPF-DieHard]

I don't know if its supposed to happen that way, but every time I fly a ship with a Phaser G on it, they seem to be the first weapon to go once you start taking hull hits.

Yup, unless you have Phaser 2s or Phaser 3s on the ship.

[3dot14]

phaser boating is easier than most tactics... But thankfully non of the ships have too much excess power...

Like what they said, the key will be ECM. Ph3/G damage decays really fast with ECM and range. But luck will help too...


Incidentally, if you think escorts are bad, you should see this:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/sfb/sft/scary_ship_2.htm#cac

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I've been using an ECM shift of 2 at all times against escort ships, and it works better. I have to remember to stay back until the escort ship is really damaged, so I don't get fried.

3.14, I'm really glad they don't have that ship in SFC. It's absolutely ridiculous. Human players could beat it, but if it was AI vs AI, the side with the CAC would win. Actually, I try to avoid "cheap" ships, even if they are great- for example, I don't think it's a good challenge flying a R-KHK when your energy is 50 and movement is 1.00.

[Kruk]

I find that fighters and PF's are more cheap then a drone ship. Fighting a drone ship is pretty easy.

[FPF-DieHard]

I find that fighters and PF's are more cheap then a drone ship. Fighting a drone ship is pretty easy.

Fast cruisers are the modern D2 cheese.  I myslef abuse the hell out of them

[Panzergranate]

We've tried out all the SFB variants of the F-FF including the F-FFR, F-FFE, etc.

Basically escorts seem to work well in formations attacking and moving as a group.

The F-FFR usually works for a 1st ititial strike on an unsuspecting attacker. (I managed to take a huge chunk out of a O-CA+ in a LAN game!!), but once the F-FFR has been scanned, the twin Plasma F launchers detected, etc. a cunning oponent just keeps the speed up and the F-FFR quite never has the power to charge the Plasmas again.

The F-FFE was intended for the Romlulan front and creams Snipes and Warbirds no problem. Well out of its depth elsewhere.

Another Fed escort, the Defiant Class Corvette from DS9 isn't too bad as I managed to take out a Galor in a game. Carrdies make crap ships!! I was not able to repeat the same sucess against Klingons ships of the TNG period. However it was certain death to PFs and fighters.

Point Defence (FlaK) ships are also pretty useless against anything more than fighters and PFs especially if converted from freighters, auxilaries or seriously obstelete warpships.

What is a Klingon warrior doing running from a battle anyway?? That's why Klingon ships have such crap aft firepower, it's the one direction that shouldn't be facing the enemy!!

You need to work out strategies for various escort types.

Running at high speed usually limits them severly on power as they're always strapped for this. I lure them out, drop a well timed cluster pack and then back it up with a suicide shuttle or two. I then turn and finish it off or leave it for later. It depends on whether the oposing team is computer or human and that the humans are acting as a team or as individuals in a team.

In campaign games try to select any ships in your squadron wisely to suit your tactics. Don't expect bigger to be better. F-BCJ and F-BCF are both slower than normal as they don't make more than 25 max speed!! And the F-BCF will want power for Plasma recharging.



The only decent escort is the Klingon E5 but there was only ever 3 made aparently and they operate together.

[Rod ONeal]

Where are you getting this from? The FFR isn't an escort and doesn't have plasmas. The FFL does. The FFE is just a small carrier escort. It's not designated for any front in particular. The FFL was used on the Romulan front, but that was to keep it deployed near the Gorns where the plasma technology came from.
The original question was refering to carrier escorts, like the FFE. They generally can beat other non-escorts in their bpv range PvP, and that's why they were being called cheap. As in underpriced for their capabilities. The E5 doesn't fall into this category. The Defiant is from a totally different universe, but wouldn't be considered a carrier escort either.

[Panzergranate]

The Defiant is a TNG period Fleet escort and fits its role well defending battle fleets against PFs and fighetrs, firgates, skiffs, etc.

The FFV is the escort carrier.

You're quite right abot the Plasma frigate not being an escort. Its a border patrol suport frigate. We just experient to see sometimes if certain ships could be used in otehr roles, if pushed.

Our usual TOS or TMP escorts for Feds is the FRE 1230 Coventry Class or CL 1353 Hunt Class light cruisers (which resembles a Ptolomey Class transport tug which was desrived from it.) I prefer the Hunt Class it has equal forward and aft firepower both in its Mk.II. TOS incarnation (dorasal deflector pylon tail removed for aft torpedo launcher.) and the LN64 powered TMP rebuilt version.

The Coventry is also intended to simulate a Ptolomey Class whne scanned by long range scanners. The TMP rebuilt Coventry is the FRE 1231 Soccor Class.
 
Most nasty Klingon escort is the K23 "Little Killer" escort cruiser. The attacking players must act as a team and try to avoid enaging it in battle if possible. So far no one has managed to kill one in a game with Fed ships.

The E5K is another good Klingon escort destroyer. Lasts out most games even under computer control usually, unlike the E4 or E3.

Our Lyran players prefer to have the Cougar or Puma Battle Tugs with suitable pallets. Anyone whos attacked one of these with an FF in SFB or SFC will know the odds of survival are limited. The rotters gather their cowardly freighters around it so we have to come in to attack them. Even worst if there's two of the things!!

None of these are cheap escorts either with the K23 coming out the most expensive. A D5 is cheaper.

Escorts tend to be as poor or good as who is operating them, tactics and choice.

[Panzergranate]

I  think the question should have been, "Are escorts value for money??"

I would answer, "It depend what you buy."

An attacker doesn't have to engage an escort(s), he can just elude the escort(s) and end up between the escort(s) and the prey. For the defending player to have this happen is negligence.

I've been in SFB games in the past and have been pretty good at luring the ecsorts away to allow someone else could attack the prey. It's all about psycholgy and a millitary term called "going impetuous".

For example a Federation convoy of 3 x  FTL and 1 x AuxCV is escorted by lone Hunt Class light cruiser. All the Fed players are inexperienced but keen.

The Klingon attackers have 2 x K-F4B and 1 x K-F5S which is providing search and aquire for the squadron. (An K-F4 is the frigate version of the K-E4 for those who don't have SFB!! THe E4/F4 is smaller than the F5, which has a roof shaped, triangular secondary hull.)

The Klingon players are veterans.

OK the pair of K-E4s move in towards the convoy whilst the F5S keeps its distance, shadowing the convoy.

The Fed CL player, realising that he more than outclasses the K-F4s moves out to engage the "easy kills" whilst the AuxCV player decides to stay with the 3 x FTLs for now.

The K-F4s exchange shots with the CL and turn tail and head away. The CL chases them, not wanting to let the frigates to escape. He is more interested in chalking up two kills now than the convoy. This is called, "Going Impetus" in millitary parlance and has lost battles throughout history (and sometimes won them rarely.)

The AuxCV player decides that he wants a piece of this action and moves away from the convoy to backup the CL.

Remember the F5S scout??

He waits until the the Fed ships are a good distance from the 3 x F-FTS and then moves in for the kill of the helpless prey.

The CL and Aux CV players break off the pursuit of the K-F4s and attempt to rescue the convoy.  At this point the K-F4s can either now turn and harrass the escorts or escape. The escorts do out match them. They need to buy the F5s enough time to waste the 3 x FTS and possibly assist an escape for it as well.

If everything goes wll for the Klingons, all 3 x FTS are mullahed and the Klingons leave the map with a few scratches.

The Klingons would win this hypothetical game as they played as a team with a team plan that they stuck to. The naval tactic is a very, very old tactic and was the main tactic used by the English Navy against the Spanish Armarda. Also a standard MTB tactic in WW2 in both the Mediteranean and te Pacific campaigns. It's even older that "Crossing the T"!!

An experienced Fed team would not have fallen for it and kept it tight. And if you've understood this, neither will you.

The AI will fall for this every time in the convoy attack.

[Rod ONeal]

Is it just me, or are the escort ships in sfc2/op unfair?
I was flying a Klingon yesterday fighting feds, and it seems like half of the ships I face are those escort variaties (DE, NEC, etc). They go so fast and when I try to stay far away in a sabre dance they just kill my rear shield with all the ph1/phG's. There's no running from them dangit!
They do add variety to the game, but are there tactics against them?

  Please reread the original post. I play SFB as well. Note that he's asking about the DE, NEC, etc... These are carrier escorts. Not a line ship escorting a convoy. Rule (S8.31) defines their use and availability in SFB if that'll help clarify it for you. They are pure muenster cheese, IMO,  when removed from their specified role of escorting carriers. Unfortunately they aren't similarly restricted in SFC.

[Panzergranate]

I figured that he was refering to the whole spectrum of escort ships, ranging from good (K-AD5) to nearly pointless.

As a Klingon player I prefer to use the excellent K-AD5, though era/year of the scenario may force me to consider an K-D5E, which is more limited. Both are standard carrier group escort ships, not convoy sheperds. I've taken out Lyran L-CAs before with a K-AD5 in games without much bother. They also do well against Kzinti warships, which is what they were intened to do anyhow.

The K-AD5 is value for money especially if fighting those other feline P'Taks, the Kzinti. The K-D5E being value for money?? Borderline.

An escort version of the K-F6 would be nice. We've pushed them into service in this role before now and their unsuitability does prove a tactical weakness, unually in intercepting drone salvoes.  Someone needs to come up with a proper dedicated version, probally called an K-ADF6 (or K-ADF5) as a carrier groups escort on the Kzinti front and elsewhere where drone salvoes are a threat. The K-AD5 is a good all tounder.

The K-E5 is worth the money and the K-E5K is better value.

The K-E3.... NO.

The K-E4.... with a K refit its borderline.

The K-G2.... aw come on!!

We did try out the cheapskate option in one Klingon versus Kzinti LAN game of trying out the concept of K-AuxPD ships. These were basically Klingon K-FS (small freighter) modified to carry LS and RS arc quad Ph3 mounts. We placed a pair of them in various close proximity positions next to a K-D5V carrier. The idea was for them to take out Kzinti drone salvoes aimed at the K-D5V.

This idea failed on many counts as the K-FS is slow.

THe D5V therefore had to move at the speed of its two point defence ships.

The B*****d Kzinti players used frigates to take out both K-AuxPDs with a fly by shoot up early in the game.

My criteria as a Klingon player for a carrier escort is as follows.:-

As fast as the carrier it is escorting.

Able to deal with drone salvoes aimed at carrier.

Able to punch equal or above its weigh.

Able to deal with PFs and fighters.

Good ECM if possible.

Good power generating systems.

Good turning circle.

Good shields.

Adaptable to more than one battlefront and hostile race.

Can take a lot of punishment and still remain combst viable.

An antii-drone escort frigae is what's missing from the Klingon escorts at the moment.