Topic: SG7 Rule Vote

[Dizzy]

*NOTE* A lone line ship with no wings, player or AI, is worth 0 points vs a BC or larger enemy ship(s), in other words it is a free kill if it's the only ship on that side. Disengagement/destruction rules still apply.


Keep in mind that this is an OPEN battlecruiser server where anyone can fly one as long as they obey the fleeting restrictions when they fly with a wing. This rule concerns me because a line ship can tie up a BC with impunity... and in some cases, line ships can kill BC's and you'll lose points when your BC dies. Do we want line ships to be worth a point? Perhaps bump the rule up to DN level instead of BC level?

[KBFLordKrueg]

When you say BC, you mean BCH?

[Dizzy]

is there a difference?

[KBFLordKrueg]

Several ships are listed as "BattleCruiser"
Heavy Battle Cruisers are listed as "Heavy"

[Dfly]

If BC only, not so sure, but if BCH and up then if you die vs a line ship, you should be worth a point at the minimum.  I will wait to find out if BC or BCH before I vote.

[FPF-DieHard]

Several ships are listed as "BattleCruiser"
Heavy Battle Cruisers are listed as "Heavy"

I think for Dizzy at times, he means BCH 

This only counts for solo fights in 1v1, it's kinda retarted to award a VC for an auto-win fight.

[Dfly]

then if BCH, I have voted.

[Dizzy]

Several ships are listed as "BattleCruiser"
Heavy Battle Cruisers are listed as "Heavy"

Please make a note that whenever I mention BC I am talking about CLASS TYPE. Not their Full Name. Here are some examples in the shiplist of ships that have the full name of 'Battlecruiser' but are in fact not classed as battlecruisers.

Race   Hull Type   Class   Class Type
Klingon   CA   K-D6   LIGHT_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-D6B   LIGHT_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-D6K   LIGHT_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-D6KR   LIGHT_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-D7   HEAVY_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-D7B   HEAVY_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-D7K   HEAVY_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-D7KR   HEAVY_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-FD7   HEAVY_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-FD7K   HEAVY_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-FD7R   HEAVY_CRUISER
Klingon   CA   K-FD7Rf   HEAVY_CRUISER
Mirak   CA   Z-BC   HEAVY_CRUISER
Mirak   CA   Z-BCR   HEAVY_CRUISER
Romulan   CA   R-K7R   HEAVY_CRUISER
Romulan   CA   R-K7RB   HEAVY_CRUISER

ALL the above are not battlecruisers. They are whatever the Class Type says they are which range from CL to CA. In fact, there is not a Battlecruiser classtype at all. So why would you think I would refer to the above? You know what, nm. I dont have time for this. You know now.

[IAF Lyrkiller]

I voted.

[Lepton]

I'm more curious as to what we think that a line ship is with regard to this rule.  In general I am inclined to vote yes, but I'd like to know what is a line ship for this server before I vote.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Agree with Lepton, we need a line ship definition.

[Dizzy]

From the fleeting rules section:

- A line ship is defined as any ship that is not a command or special class type ship, vanilla in other words.

[Dizzy]

Ok, here's what I think.... Some line ships can kill BC's. So why wouldl a BC risk taking that risk for nothing? The BC captain is risking his 3 vc points for nothing. I say bump it to DN level. That way a line cruiser could challenge a DN and not worry much except the pp loss. The DN on the other hand shouldnt have to worry much about the line ship so both would engage.

With the BC tho... I'm feeling we are handing too much advantage to the line ship... But that's my opinion. I havent voted yet...

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Ok, here's what I think.... Some line ships can kill BC's. So why wouldl a BC risk taking that risk for nothing? The BC captain is risking his 3 vc points for nothing. I say bump it to DN level. That way a line cruiser could challenge a DN and not worry much except the pp loss. The DN on the other hand shouldnt have to worry much about the line ship so both would engage.

With the BC tho... I'm feeling we are handing too much advantage to the line ship... But that's my opinion. I havent voted yet...

As a fried of mine once said "If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen, get out."

The BCH can always disengage if he is afraid of losing the ship.  Not only that but a line ship that is lost still faces a disengagement penalty which is plenty of punishment.

I like the rule as it encourages line ship usage, givng line ships matchups they have a chance of winning at low risk is a Great way to promote them.

[Dizzy]

I like the rule as it encourages line ship usage, givng line ships matchups they have a chance of winning at low risk is a Great way to promote them.

Hrmmm. Well said. I agree. Voted to keep the rule as is.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Now, if I only knew the number of planets and bases you want me to place so we could finish the map and get started on time for Fri.
I have to work tomorrow, so I'll check to see if it's there when i get home about 5-6 EDT.
Couple of hours after that, I should have it back to ya.

[Dfly]

LK< They are posted, I put them in the forums.

[Lepton]

Ok, here's what I think.... Some line ships can kill BC's. So why wouldl a BC risk taking that risk for nothing? The BC captain is risking his 3 vc points for nothing. I say bump it to DN level. That way a line cruiser could challenge a DN and not worry much except the pp loss. The DN on the other hand shouldnt have to worry much about the line ship so both would engage.

With the BC tho... I'm feeling we are handing too much advantage to the line ship... But that's my opinion. I havent voted yet...

From my perspective, you're looking at this thing all sideways.  You know my position on line ships.  So what exactly is it that you are attempting to accomplish with this rule?  I frankly don't get it.  I don't see this as encouraging anyone to fly a line ship rather it is more a punishment against those who'd like to fly a line ship as he or she would only get this special dispensation when he or she is totally alone, no human or AI wing.  When is that latter condition going to be met??  Only in the rare occasion of a 1v1 drafting  mission or of a BC or DN flying solo on the opposing side.

If you'd like to encourage line ship use, give them a real benefit.  This is like saying I'll give you a penny if a bird craps on your head while standing on one foot on Tuesday.

[Dizzy]

This is like saying I'll give you a penny if a bird craps on your head while standing on one foot on Tuesday.

Yeah but in all the last servers it was only one day a year, not once every week.

[FPF-Paladin]

Voted...

[KBF MalaK]

Ok, here's what I think.... Some line ships can kill BC's. So why wouldl a BC risk taking that risk for nothing? The BC captain is risking his 3 vc points for nothing. I say bump it to DN level. That way a line cruiser could challenge a DN and not worry much except the pp loss. The DN on the other hand shouldnt have to worry much about the line ship so both would engage.

With the BC tho... I'm feeling we are handing too much advantage to the line ship... But that's my opinion. I havent voted yet...

From my perspective, you're looking at this thing all sideways.  You know my position on line ships.  So what exactly is it that you are attempting to accomplish with this rule?  I frankly don't get it.  I don't see this as encouraging anyone to fly a line ship rather it is more a punishment against those who'd like to fly a line ship as he or she would only get this special dispensation when he or she is totally alone, no human or AI wing.  When is that latter condition going to be met??  Only in the rare occasion of a 1v1 drafting  mission or of a BC or DN flying solo on the opposing side.

EXACTLY what I was thinking!!! (the bottom part)

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Ok, here's what I think.... Some line ships can kill BC's. So why wouldl a BC risk taking that risk for nothing? The BC captain is risking his 3 vc points for nothing. I say bump it to DN level. That way a line cruiser could challenge a DN and not worry much except the pp loss. The DN on the other hand shouldnt have to worry much about the line ship so both would engage.

With the BC tho... I'm feeling we are handing too much advantage to the line ship... But that's my opinion. I havent voted yet...

From my perspective, you're looking at this thing all sideways.  You know my position on line ships.  So what exactly is it that you are attempting to accomplish with this rule?  I frankly don't get it.  I don't see this as encouraging anyone to fly a line ship rather it is more a punishment against those who'd like to fly a line ship as he or she would only get this special dispensation when he or she is totally alone, no human or AI wing.  When is that latter condition going to be met??  Only in the rare occasion of a 1v1 drafting  mission or of a BC or DN flying solo on the opposing side.

If you'd like to encourage line ship use, give them a real benefit.  This is like saying I'll give you a penny if a bird craps on your head while standing on one foot on Tuesday.

I see potential usage, but I'm not telling how, Muhahahahahaha

[Hexx]

I'm working on wel, like 0 hours of sleep here.
(GF's sister is having a baby...how exactly am *I* getting scammed out of sleep?)

Anyway- forgive me if I've missed something, but doesn't this mean that (for example)

I can send DH in a Fed CA by himself into a Klngon VP hex, draft up to 3 defenders of said hex, then run missions on top of it.
All the while knowing that I'm giving up 0vp even if he does lose the ship?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'm working on wel, like 0 hours of sleep here.
(GF's sister is having a baby...how exactly am *I* getting scammed out of sleep?)

Anyway- forgive me if I've missed something, but doesn't this mean that (for example)

I can send DH in a Fed CA by himself into a Klngon VP hex, draft up to 3 defenders of said hex, then run missions on top of it.
All the while knowing that I'm giving up 0vp even if he does lose the ship?

You can do it once, it wont likely last long, and he will be forced to disengage from that hex and the surrounding ones.

Additionally you assuming that you would beat the ai.  I'm not convinced that is likely.   


Oh and one other factor, he might draw a 1v1 instead.

[Riskyllama]

I'm working on wel, like 0 hours of sleep here.
(GF's sister is having a baby...how exactly am *I* getting scammed out of sleep?)

Anyway- forgive me if I've missed something, but doesn't this mean that (for example)

I can send DH in a Fed CA by himself into a Klngon VP hex, draft up to 3 defenders of said hex, then run missions on top of it.
All the while knowing that I'm giving up 0vp even if he does lose the ship?

you could already do that before by having DH disengage at the last minute.. its just this way he looses less time out of the hex in return for the cost of his ship

[Dizzy]

And only in a 1v1. If you tie up more than one player you're worth a point.

[Lepton]

Simple but effective and revolutionary line ship/disengagement rules:

1.  A line ship not subjected to disengagement rule when faced by any player-controlled non-line ship
2.  All non-line ships subjected to disengagement rule
3.  Line ships subjected to disengagement rule when faced by all player-controlled line ships


This means that players will have to jump into line ships to kick other line ships out of hexes.  It creates a whole new level of play and offers a mechanism for leveling the playing field for PvP battles and gives line ships an unique and valuable role.  It makes them a tactical and strategic asset and frankly allows non-nutters to possess a valuable ship and contribute significantly to the server without having to fly a battlecruiser or above in class size.

[Lepton]

And only in a 1v1. If you tie up more than one player you're worth a point.

Totally, totally useless rule.  Essentially this is going to apply to a line ship pilot who wants to run solo or just happens to get drafted into a 1v1 mission.  What's the point?

[Dizzy]

If you see your enemies are running BC's, it'd be easy to catch one and split them up.... There is also a rule... I'm not saying which one, but I think I know which one Chuut is talking about... Where it may be useful a bit.

You have a good idea, Lepton, but I'm not willing to take such an extreme slant toward line ships. Maybe next server unless your lobbyists can ratchet up the pressure significantly on your behalf before we launch in the next few hours...

[FPF-Jem]

Simple but effective and revolutionary line ship/disengagement rules:

1.  A line ship not subjected to disengagement rule when faced by any player-controlled non-line ship
2.  All non-line ships subjected to disengagement rule
3.  Line ships subjected to disengagement rule when faced by all player-controlled line ships


This means that players will have to jump into line ships to kick other line ships out of hexes.  It creates a whole new level of play and offers a mechanism for leveling the playing field for PvP battles and gives line ships an unique and valuable role.  It makes them a tactical and strategic asset and frankly allows non-nutters to possess a valuable ship and contribute significantly to the server without having to fly a battlecruiser or above in class size.

You know that sounds like an interesting idea. The only thing I think I would add would be a size factor, e.g. a line DD would not suffer the disengagement penalty if forced out by a line CA or something to that effect.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Simple but effective and revolutionary line ship/disengagement rules:

1.  A line ship not subjected to disengagement rule when faced by any player-controlled non-line ship
2.  All non-line ships subjected to disengagement rule
3.  Line ships subjected to disengagement rule when faced by all player-controlled line ships


This means that players will have to jump into line ships to kick other line ships out of hexes.  It creates a whole new level of play and offers a mechanism for leveling the playing field for PvP battles and gives line ships an unique and valuable role.  It makes them a tactical and strategic asset and frankly allows non-nutters to possess a valuable ship and contribute significantly to the server without having to fly a battlecruiser or above in class size.

Why stop there Lepton, to make them more useful and even more widely used with fewer rules?

1.  A line ship not subjected to disengagement rule when faced by any player-controlled non-line ship
2.  All non-line ships subjected to disengagement rule
3.  Line ships subjected to disengagement rule when faced by all player-controlled line ships

There thats much better.

[Dizzy]

Are they worth a point, Chuut or not?

[FPF-DieHard]

Simple but effective and revolutionary line ship/disengagement rules:

1.  A line ship not subjected to disengagement rule when faced by any player-controlled non-line ship
2.  All non-line ships subjected to disengagement rule
3.  Line ships subjected to disengagement rule when faced by all player-controlled line ships


This means that players will have to jump into line ships to kick other line ships out of hexes.  It creates a whole new level of play and offers a mechanism for leveling the playing field for PvP battles and gives line ships an unique and valuable role.  It makes them a tactical and strategic asset and frankly allows non-nutters to possess a valuable ship and contribute significantly to the server without having to fly a battlecruiser or above in class size.

Why stop there Lepton, to make them more useful and even more widely used with fewer rules?

1.  A line ship not subjected to disengagement rule when faced by any player-controlled non-line ship
2.  All non-line ships subjected to disengagement rule
3.  Line ships subjected to disengagement rule when faced by all player-controlled line ships

There thats much better.

I could sign off on that but I'm TOTALLY biased in favor of "line ships."

[FPF-Jem]

Are they worth a point, Chuut or not?

If another lineship kills them, sure. More incentive to fly line ships.

[FPF-DieHard]

Has anyone defined a "line" ship yet?   Do command varients count?   I think the chance of obtaining a legendary crew might be incentive enough.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Now if you really want to see serious line ship usage, then allow players forced off a hexto return to that area in lineships.

Rationale, disengagement rulw would be due to the empire not wanting to lose rare fleet assets, line ships aren't rare so they are thrown at the enemy instead to fight a war of attrition.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Has anyone defined a "line" ship yet?   Do command varients count?   I think the chance of obtaining a legendary crew might be incentive enough.

yes it has been.

From the fleeting rules section:

- A line ship is defined as any ship that is not a command or special class type ship, vanilla in other words.

But what you say isn't a bad idea Die Hard, you could replace the legendary crew rule by making it a CA instead of a CC to encourage more line ship usage.  If you did that you could even drop the requirement to 10 kills instead of 15 I think.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Also if it was line ships you could not even worry about limiting the number of legendary crews pwer side.

And there would be nothing that said it had to be a CA either, it could be any line ship, as long as all the kills were made in the same hull.

So If a player made 10 kills in a light cruiser they could get a legendary crew for that ship instead.  Might come into play in the mosh pit.  Some players like smaller ships after all.  And certain races might have totally crrappy CAs compared to their counterparts but have better CLs or DDs.

I would draw a line at no legendary heavy war destroyers or X-variants of any class however.  Those ships need no boost.

[Lepton]

Simple but effective and revolutionary line ship/disengagement rules:

1.  A line ship not subjected to disengagement rule when faced by any player-controlled non-line ship
2.  All non-line ships subjected to disengagement rule
3.  Line ships subjected to disengagement rule when faced by all player-controlled line ships


This means that players will have to jump into line ships to kick other line ships out of hexes.  It creates a whole new level of play and offers a mechanism for leveling the playing field for PvP battles and gives line ships an unique and valuable role.  It makes them a tactical and strategic asset and frankly allows non-nutters to possess a valuable ship and contribute significantly to the server without having to fly a battlecruiser or above in class size.

Why stop there Lepton, to make them more useful and even more widely used with fewer rules?

1.  A line ship not subjected to disengagement rule when faced by any player-controlled non-line ship
2.  All non-line ships subjected to disengagement rule
3.  Line ships subjected to disengagement rule when faced by all player-controlled line ships

There thats much better.

I'm not entirely opposed to that revision.  The reason why my rule 3 is there is to further reinforce use of line ships.  If you can only bump a line ship from a hex with another line ship, it means that both sides will need to maintain a portion of their players in line ships to combat their strategic use.  Further, rule 3 is there as a kind of leveling of the playing field for PvP in these instances.  With regard to PvP points, I'd make line ships of an appropriate size worth a point under this rule scheme as now they (line ships) have a significant tactical and strategic role to play.

[Dizzy]

Good posting Lepton and Chutt. Now u2 get together and write up a rule. I'll check it out and put it up to a vote, but DH and I are liking where you guys are coming from.

[Lepton]

Good posting Lepton and Chutt. Now u2 get together and write up a rule. I'll check it out and put it up to a vote, but DH and I are liking where you guys are coming from.

If you are willing to entertain the idea of exempting line ships from disengagement rule, then I'd be willing to go with Chuut's language and idea.  Any line ship is not subject to the disengagement rule no matter the circumstance.  Period.  Stop.  End of sentence.  All other ships subject to disengagement rule.  For any potential last minute change like this, it would be best to keep it simple.  However, I can see that this might seem to go too far, but if put up to a vote, then at least people will have a chance to register their feelings on it and discuss.

[Dizzy]

Now if you really want to see serious line ship usage, then allow players forced off a hexto return to that area in lineships.

Rationale, disengagement rulw would be due to the empire not wanting to lose rare fleet assets, line ships aren't rare so they are thrown at the enemy instead to fight a war of attrition.

Perfect.

[Dizzy]

This thread is as good as closed. Go here to discuss it further plz.

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163374037.0.html

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

This thread is as good as closed. Go here to discuss it further plz.

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163374037.0.html

You say perfect to the ideas Lepton and I seem to accept, but instead of posting them in your new poll for discussion as Lepton wisely advised, you post something entirely different?  WTF?

he is my poll.

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163374040.0.html

Now why dont you delete the one you put up, and place the one we had seemed to come to a preliminary agreement about?