Topic: This is SPARTA!!! (My 300 Review)

[Alidar Jarok]

OK, there will probably be some spoilers in my review.  I just got back from seeing a free, early viewing of 300 (the movie about the Battle of Thermopylae).

I'd have to say that, ignoring all issues about plot, dialogue and historical accuracy for a second, this movie is just fun to watch. I mean that as simply as possible. It looks really, really cool.

Its an entirely stylized version of the Battle of Thermopylae. Spartans fight against the thousand nations of the Persian army and cut them down with spear, shield, and sword. I'm not sure what nations the Persians get their soldiers, but they managed to get weird deformed people, giant 10 feet tall rabid people, guys with swords for arms among others. But it still looks cool when Spartans use their spears to take down a rhinosarus.

Don't look for this movie to be historically accurate (I'd be happy to point out good examples of something that was accurate and examples of stuff that wasn't if people are curious, though). Like I said before, its heavily stylized. Its a movie that just looks cool and, to put it simply, it kicks ass.

[Vipre]

No doubts the movie will be awesome, but it's sad that most of the viewers will have no grasp of just how incredible the true story is.

[Lepton]

The movie is crap.  It's Iraq war propaganda.  A small Spartan group killing thousands of Persians?  At least Kingdom of Heaven had some moderate Muslims in it.  This movie is sheer fantasy-killing of brown people from an area of the world we fear.  Let me guess all the Spartans are really white-looking despite the fact that they are Greek.

[jualdeaux]

That is some opinion for never having seen the movie.

Molon Labe!

In 480BC, the Persian Empire with the most fearsome army ever seen to date, began its conquest of Greece. With 600,000 men, battle-hardened and cruel, King Xerxes began his advance towards Athens expecting little resistance. From the north coast they began, and slaughtered all in their path.

King Leonidas of Sparta took up arms in defense of his Neighbors. With 300 hand picked body guards, 700 Thespians, and 5,000 Greeks; King Leonidas took up position at the Pass of Thermoplyae, the only direct route through the mountains to Athens.

At the approach of King Xerxes army, an emissary was sent to King Leonidas seeking his surrender. "Why die here? We are a host without equal... Our archers are so numerous that the flight of their arrows darkens the sun..."

King Leonidas replied: "So much the better, for we shall fight them in the shade!"

King Xerxes began his assault and the Greeks ran. At the bottom of the pass, Xerxes offered surrender to Leonidas, that if they would lay down their arms, their lives would be spared.

"Molon Labe!" Cried Leonidas! "Come and get them!"

For three days the Spartans fought, and when the battle was ended the Spartans were killed to the man. But the time afforded to the Greeks to raise an Army allowed them to fight and eventually turn Xerxes from Greece.

King Leonidas and his 1,000 had won!

Today a stone memorial can still be found in the pass of Thermoplyae that reads : "Go tell the Spartans, travelers passing by, that here, obedient to their laws we lie."

As me me seeing the movie, I doubt that I will. I usually wait until it hits DVD to consider seeing it as then I can use the subtitles to understand what everyone is saying.

[Soreyes]

The movie is crap.  It's Iraq war propaganda.  A small Spartan group killing thousands of Persians?  At least Kingdom of Heaven had some moderate Muslims in it.  This movie is sheer fantasy-killing of brown people from an area of the world we fear.  Let me guess all the Spartans are really white-looking despite the fact that they are Greek.

[Lepton]

The movie is crap.  It's Iraq war propaganda.  A small Spartan group killing thousands of Persians?  At least Kingdom of Heaven had some moderate Muslims in it.  This movie is sheer fantasy-killing of brown people from an area of the world we fear.  Let me guess all the Spartans are really white-looking despite the fact that they are Greek.

Is that you and your husband?

[Alidar Jarok]

The movie is crap.  It's Iraq war propaganda.  A small Spartan group killing thousands of Persians?  At least Kingdom of Heaven had some moderate Muslims in it.  This movie is sheer fantasy-killing of brown people from an area of the world we fear.  Let me guess all the Spartans are really white-looking despite the fact that they are Greek.

Holy crap, read too much into it?  Sure they made Persians often look like weird, freakish people, but that's not supposed to say anything about real life (are Iranians really "brown people"?  They're far closer to us ethnically than anyone else in the middle east).

They took a real historical event and used the themes argued by Herodotus (freedom vs. slavery) as the theme of the movie.  Then they tried to make it look cool.  That's all.  Its not intended to be political commentary.

Interestingly, they've been accused by both sides of making it political commentary.  Some have thought it was a pro-Iraq war stance (using the reasons you said), others have accused them of making an anti-Bush movie (the little guys stand up to the largest superpower in the world).  I think when both sides come to opposite conclusions, its safe to say they are both wrong.

Don't read too much into the movie.

[Dash Jones]

That is some opinion for never having seen the movie.

Molon Labe!

In 480BC, the Persian Empire with the most fearsome army ever seen to date, began its conquest of Greece. With 600,000 men, battle-hardened and cruel, King Xerxes began his advance towards Athens expecting little resistance. From the north coast they began, and slaughtered all in their path.

King Leonidas of Sparta took up arms in defense of his Neighbors. With 300 hand picked body guards, 700 Thespians, and 5,000 Greeks; King Leonidas took up position at the Pass of Thermoplyae, the only direct route through the mountains to Athens.

At the approach of King Xerxes army, an emissary was sent to King Leonidas seeking his surrender. "Why die here? We are a host without equal... Our archers are so numerous that the flight of their arrows darkens the sun..."

King Leonidas replied: "So much the better, for we shall fight them in the shade!"

King Xerxes began his assault and the Greeks ran. At the bottom of the pass, Xerxes offered surrender to Leonidas, that if they would lay down their arms, their lives would be spared.

"Molon Labe!" Cried Leonidas! "Come and get them!"

For three days the Spartans fought, and when the battle was ended the Spartans were killed to the man. But the time afforded to the Greeks to raise an Army allowed them to fight and eventually turn Xerxes from Greece.

King Leonidas and his 1,000 had won!

Today a stone memorial can still be found in the pass of Thermoplyae that reads : "Go tell the Spartans, travelers passing by, that here, obedient to their laws we lie."

As me me seeing the movie, I doubt that I will. I usually wait until it hits DVD to consider seeing it as then I can use the subtitles to understand what everyone is saying.

They just had a history channel documentary on it, and it seems your tale is a little off.  In actuality, the Persians would have waltzed right over Greece, but one Athenian, Who was in charge of their fleet, formed an alliance between the different city states and organized a Land army along with the Athenian Navy.  It was his military strategy (as opposed to Leonidas's tactics) that won the war.  Though most Greeks did not agree with him at the time, he believed that the Persians were NOTHING without their armada of ships to back them up, support them, and aid them. 

On the first day, Leonidas led the ground troops at Thermopyle composed of some odd 7000 Greeks and Slaves.  Anotides(not certain that's the spelling or how you say the Athenian name) blocked the strait to prevent the Persians from bringing in reinforcements OR from having their massive navy support the Persian Army.  Anotides held the Fleet off for 2 days.  This prevented the Persian army from flanking Leonidas's army, by bringing in an army on both sides of the canyon.

However, on the third day the Persians figured out how to get troops to the other side, and the Greeks knowing tactics knew that once the Persians did this, it was only a matter of time till they lost this battle.  If they were all killed here, they WOULD lose the war.  Knowing this, Leonidas sent the Greeks away to gather even more strength and to continue to do battle in locations where they might win.  The Greek Navy also retreated.  Leonidas was left with 300 men.  He fought a delaying action so that the Greek army could actually get away instead of getting slaughtered.  The biggest miracle of the 300 then wasn't the battle previously (which still was a pretty great miracle, in that 7000 greeks held off an army numbering anywhere from 200,000 to a million men) but that 300 actually delayed that army long enough for the rest of them to get away.

However, the Persians ONLY lost ~20,000 men.  A great deal more than 300, BUT a small dent in the Persian army, and something they could easily afford.  The Persians then proceeded to Athens.  The Athenian Admiral tried to convince them that they needed to flee Athens, and that their best hope at this point was by sea (where his ships were only outnumbered by a factor of 5 to 1 instead of the land armies which were outnumbered by a factor of 20 or 100 to 1.  Those who relied on the land army, were slaughtered when Athens was razed to the ground.

The Athenian Admiral then took on the Persians at Salomina (sp?)where one of the greatest military victories ever was accomplished.  He took on the Persians at sea, and won...springing them into a trap...and pushing them back.  At that point, they had a choice of either being deserted without supplies in Greece, or taking what scraps of a fleet they had left, and limping back home.  The Persians left and the Greeks won...leading to Athenian dominance in many ways of the Mediteranean, and the seeds of Democracy being sown around the known world.

[Alidar Jarok]

Going from memory here.  You are close, but not quite.

The Greek army at Thermopylae was approx 5200, compared to a Persian army of anywhere between 250,000-500,000 men.  The Athenian navy was present to prevent any flanking attempts by Persian troops.  From what I remember, they were commanded by a Spartan general who didn't know much about naval maneuvers but knew how to keep the fleet staying still and blocking the Persian advance (which was what they needed to do).

They held the Persians for three days, which helped the Athenians prepare better (although they still had to abandon the city).  In the end, when they were surrounded, all but 300 Spartans and 700 Thespians (the forgotten Greeks at the battle) withdrew.  Although a hopeless cause, they fought to the death.  At the final point in the battle, the Persians were afraid to charge the Spartans another time, so they ordered archers to rain arrows down on them until they were all dead.  Greek casualties were 1,200, Persian casualties were 20,000.

Salomis was clearly the turning point, that's true.  Here the Athenian navy destroyed the Persian fleet and forced Xerxes to withdraw, since he couldn't support that many troops.  Finally, at Platea (where the Greeks were still outnumbered), they managed to win.  Unlike Thermopylae, Sparta sent more Hoplites than any other city (Athens was second).  This final battle was decisive and Persia was defeated.

Still, even though Salamis and Platea were the key battles, it doesn't mean we can't admre the people who fought and died at Thermopylae.

[Dash Jones]

I was just repeating the professors (or whoever wrote the documentary) from the History Channel Documentary...

I figured thier research would have them be able to give a biased but fairly accurate veiw for the novice.  (though the 7000 included the slaves I believe as well, so the 5200 number might have been the army without the slaves?)

[AcePylut]

From what I remember, they were commanded by a Spartan general who didn't know much about naval maneuvers but knew how to keep the fleet staying still and blocking the Persian advance.

The main reason the fleet was commanded by a ground-pounder from Sparta, is that a Spartan would not retreat, and would not surrender.  From what I've read, the Spartan general-turned-admiral deferred to the Athenian in everything in regards to the battle, after the "no retreat no surrender" precedent was firmly established.

The reason the Persians surrounded the Greeks as Thermopaylae is that a greek citizen turned traitor, and showed the Persians a pass around the Hot Gates in return for some cash.  Ever since, the name of that greek is a synonym for "traitor" and "nightmare". 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yep, all true.

In the movie, as soon as I saw Ephialtes I knew he'd be the traitor, since it fit the style of the movie (he was following them like frickin' Gollum for crying out loud).

[AcePylut]

Its a movie that just looks cool and, to put it simply, it kicks ass.

 

[AcePylut]

I think my favorite part was the first clash.

When Leonidas goes "This is where we fight.  This is where they die".  Then the Persian guy goes "Spartans, lay down your weapons", and Leonidas replies, "Persians, come and get them".  The way he said that brought chills down my spine.  He & his spartan warriors looked like such badasses ready to butcher anything.  Gaaa.  I wouldn't want to be facing that.

Check it out...

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/movies/clips/1809262865/1809823918/?http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/mf/frame?theme=minfo&lid=wmv-100-p.1557862-184608,wmv-300-p.1557863-184608,wmv-700-p.1557864-184608,wmv-1000-p.1557865-184608&id=1809262865&f=1809262865&mspid=1809823918&type=c&a=0,15

[Anthony Scott]

Went to see it opening night with some of m US Marine buddies and we had a blast! I could barely restrain my buddies as they yelled "OORAH!" "GET SOME!" and other things that are not forum friendly. Being the resident historian I too found the liberties taken with the historical account distracting but this is a movie so some liberties are by the nature of the medium to be expected. Kingdom of Heaven was far worse historically, overlooking the fact that those who could not ransom themselves were sold into slavery.

In short, LOVED it, will go see it again and will add it to my DVD collection.

Semper Fi, Carry On

[Alidar Jarok]

I loved most of the dialogue (some of it was cheesy).  I loved the "I brought more soldiers than you" dialogue (it really showed something about Greek citizen warfare and Spartan citizen warfare, which was still very different than the levy armies of the Persian empire).

[Villa64]

Just saw it.  Neat to view, not much in the way of story.  "Stylized" is a good adjective.

I didnt see much in the way of politics.

Of course I didnt see much in the way of politics in 1982, when Pravda said that Star Wars was an obvious attempt to bash the Soviet Union, obviously casting them as the evil empire.  And now in 2007, Iran says the same thing.

If the shoe fits, I guess...

[Sirgod]

I caught this article today and thought you might all like it.

Fact or Fiction?
300 gets the big ideas right.

By Victor Davis Hanson

Crowds are flocking to see the film 300 about the ancient Spartans’ last stand at the pass at Thermopylae against an invading Persian army. Yet many critics, in panning 300, have alleged that the film is essentially historically inaccurate. Are they right?

Here are some answers. But first two qualifiers. I wrote an introduction to a book about the making of 300 after being shown a rough cut of the movie in October. And, second, remember that 300 does not claim to follow exactly ancient accounts of the battle of Thermopylae in 480 B.C. Instead, it is an impressionistic take on a graphic novel by Frank Miller, intended to entertain and shock first, and instruct second.

Indeed, at the real battle, there weren’t rhinoceroses or elephants in the Persian army. Their king, Xerxes, was bearded and sat on a throne high above the battle; he wasn’t, as in the movie, bald and sexually ambiguous, and he didn’t prance around the killing field. And neither the traitor Ephialtes nor the Spartan overseers, the Ephors, were grotesquely deformed.

When the Greeks were surrounded on the battle’s last day, there were 700 Thespians and another 400 Thebans who fought alongside the 300 Spartans under King Leonidas. But these non-Spartans are scarcely prominent in the movie.

Still, the main storyline mostly conveys the message of Thermopylae.

A small contingent of Greeks at Thermopylae (which translates to “The Hot Gates”) really did block the enormous Persian army for three days before being betrayed. The defenders claimed their fight was for the survival of a free people against subjugation by the Persian Empire.

Many of the film’s corniest lines — such as the Spartan dare, “Come and take them,” when ordered by the Persians to hand over their weapons, or the Spartans’ flippant reply, “Then we will fight in the shade,” when warned that Persian arrows will blot out the sun — actually come from ancient accounts by Herodotus and Plutarch.

The warriors of 300 look like comic-book heroes because they are based on Frank Miller’s drawings that emphasized bare torsos, futuristic swords and staged fight scenes. In other words, director Zack Snyder tells the story not in a realistic fashion — like the mostly failed attempts to recapture the ancient world in recent films such as Troy or Alexander — but in the surreal manner of a comic book or video game.

The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used “heroic nudity” to show the contours of the human body.

Similarly, Athenian tragedies that depicted stories of war employed contrivances every bit as imaginative as those in 300. Actors wore masks. Men played women’s roles. They chanted in set meters, broken up by choral hymns. The audience understood that dramatists reworked common myths to meet current tastes and offer commentary on the human experience.

Some reviewers think the film is gratuitously violent. But Thermopylae was no picnic. Almost all the Spartans and Thespians were killed, along with hundreds from other Greek contingents. Some of the film’s most graphic killing — such as Persians being pushed over the cliff into the sea — derives from the text of Herodotus. And the filmmakers omitted the mutilation of King Leonidas, whose head Xerxes ordered impaled on a stake.

Finally, some have suggested that 300 is juvenile in its black-and-white depiction — and glorification — of free Greeks versus imperious Persians. The film has actually been banned in Iran as hurtful American propaganda, as the theocracy suddenly is reclaiming its “infidel” ancient past.

But that good/bad contrast comes not from the director or Frank Miller, but is based on accounts from the Greeks themselves, who saw their own society as antithetical to the monarchy of imperial Persia.

True, 2,500 years ago, almost every society in the ancient Mediterranean world had slaves. And all relegated women to a relatively inferior position. Sparta turned the entire region of Messenia into a dependent serf state.

But in the Greek polis alone, there were elected governments, ranging from the constitutional oligarchy at Sparta to much broader-based voting in states like Athens and Thespiae.

Most importantly, only in Greece was there a constant tradition of unfettered expression and self-criticism. Aristophanes, Sophocles and Plato questioned the subordinate position of women. Alcidamas lamented the notion of slavery.

Such openness was found nowhere else in the ancient Mediterranean world. That freedom of expression explains why we rightly consider the ancient Greeks as the founders of our present Western civilization — and, as millions of moviegoers seem to sense, far more like us than the enemy who ultimately failed to conquer them.

Stephen

[Greenbullet]

I agree the movie was unbeilvable the fights seens the quick one liners and the added story to it was amazin it was unflawed it was a bit inaccurate but the moral of the story was that few stood up against many and any one who thinks this is a "propaganda war" movie need slapped for one the spartans lost the dam battle in propaganda movies the ones doing the propaganda win hands down. It just goes to show how stupid people can be when they see everything as a "propaganda" piece when war is going on.

[J. Carney]

The movie is crap.  It's Iraq war propaganda.  A small Spartan group killing thousands of Persians?  At least Kingdom of Heaven had some moderate Muslims in it.  This movie is sheer fantasy-killing of brown people from an area of the world we fear.  Let me guess all the Spartans are really white-looking despite the fact that they are Greek.

Actually, they did a good job of making everyone in that movie look as little like the race they were supposed to be representing as possible...

ESPECIALLY the Persians.


If anything, it's more 'reason over mysticism' anti-religious propaganda, portraying all religions as enslaving man, and turning some of the most pious of all the Greeks into heathens.