Topic: Home Base: Story #5  (Read 6319 times)

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Offline CaptJosh

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Re: Home Base: Story #5
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2007, 06:38:27 pm »
Ok, how the hell is Honor a Mary Sue? The author is a MAN. Genetic manipulation? Whoop-de-do. That's almost a given in the honorverse with colonists.

As for your contention that Piper is a Mary Sue, I just don't see it. She makes mistakes. She even is often so close to a problem that she can't see the solution for quite some time. A very human foible. So she McGuyvered her way past a computer sentry on her door in Dreadnought. And Kirk wouldn't have? Why does her emuation of her idol, Captain James T. Kirk, make her a Mary Sue character? Is it just because she's the unique creation of Diane Carey, who happens to also be a woman? The overarching theme for both books as I saw it, was that we were seeing a woman just as driven and resourceful as Captain Kirk, and also seeing what happens when Kirk has to deal with that woman regularly. Furthermore, we're not seeing that intelligence and resourcfuness without backstory. She doesn't suddenly become this die-hard character all at once.

In Dreadnought we watch her practically blow up the Kobayashi Maru simulator, not an uncommon feat for a cadet, but she was more creative than the average cadet in her method, using a trick taught to her by one of her friends using a communicator to tie in to the computer, forcing the simulator to fight itself. In Dreadnought, we get to see just how tricky shes always been courtesy of the flashback to the Outlast. This same flashback also shows her early raw potential as a commanding officer when she motivates Sarda to finally come up with a method of communication after he had been thinking, perfectly logically, in the wrong direction, wanting a sophisticated communications method when she just wanted any method that couldn't be read by the other teams, unlike the Jacob's Elementary Light Code one of those teams was using.

I find Piper to be a well thought out character with a good backstory, and flaws the same as anyone. A shame that she only appears in two books, save for offhand references in others (assorted comments about her being Fleet Admiral at some point, if I recall correctly).

I think Honor Harrington was also well thought out. She has her blind spots, like being unable to see that she is no longer the gangling youth she once was. I like her style, and that she never says die. That said, it would be nice if for once, Honor went up against someone better than she and she ended up winning by dumb luck instead of skill and trickery. It would make for a nice change of pace.

In closing, we REALLY don't have enough strong female leads in sci-fi on the whole. There is a bias, probably not consciously, toward male leading characters in the genre. This seems at least in part due to most sci-fi authors being male and not being comfortable writing a strong female lead or female characters in general. The female leads that do get written often seem to be just someone for the male to rescue and sail off among the stars with. I personally hope that I don't write that way. I try not to. The fairer sex is not at all the weaker and I don't ever want to write any of my female characters as simpering weaklings unless I have a damn good reason to write a female character specifically as such.
CaptJosh

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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Home Base: Story #5
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2007, 07:08:46 pm »
Quote
In closing, we REALLY don't have enough strong female leads in sci-fi on the whole.

I agree.

But I still think Honor Harrington is a munchkin.  She's a classic Mary-Sue (note the category does not require the author to be female), wish-fulfillment, character...exotic-looking, super-intelligent, practically undefeated, friendly, good-at-most-things-she does, woman who just happens to have a character flaw that doesn't give her an ego to match all these sterling qualities, but is also honored over and over again by those who can 'better judge' her.  And to top it off, she has super powers, thanks to Nimitz and the aforementioned genetic engineering.  And she gets worse with every word Weber writes (On Basillisk Station is the best book in the series, and I happily recommend it).

Of course, Weber is known for such things:  The Star Kingdom of Manticore would be pretty much a Utopia if some people who didn't share his political views didn't occasionally come to power and muss things up.

Quote
The female leads that do get written often seem to be just someone for the male to rescue and sail off among the stars with. I personally hope that I don't write that way. I try not to. The fairer sex is not at all the weaker and I don't ever want to write any of my female characters as simpering weaklings unless I have a damn good reason to write a female character specifically as such.

I know what you mean, but I think you're preaching to the choir on this message board:  Name one simpering weakling among our selection of characters (male or female).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 07:27:49 pm by Commander La'ra »
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
                                                                 ---------Rod Serling, The Last Flight

Offline Governor Ronjar

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Re: Home Base: Story #5
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2007, 09:04:30 pm »
My response to the apove explosion by Captain Josh: :rofl:

I'm sooo happy!

Now that I've rattled your cage and caused an artery to burst, I stand by my claims on both counts. As to the backgroud of Diane Carey's character, all thought out characters have a back ground. The very essense of a Mary Sue is that they are invented by the author to show up and perform as well or even better than the main characters at what they do every day. While Piper is a TAME version of said stereotype, she remains a good example of it. My main dislike of the stories themselves is that they were simply boring. I could almost never get into a Diane Carey novel. I know this is sacreligeous to many of you, but them's my thoughts on the matter.

I never, to my knowledge, stated that Honor was a Mary Sue. One cannot be a Mary Sue in one's own story. I likened her to any main character of any Louis L'amour novel and stated that one knew exactly what one was going to read upon opening the cover to a Honor Harrington book. Only the most specific instances and trivial details were different.

But, Capt... I still love ya! Don't let my rubbing of your fur the wrong way get ya too angry. Go strangle some kittens to take the edge off. Make sure to turn them away from you so they don't tear you to pieces. (Kiddin'! Kiddin'! Don't strangle any kittens!)

Ever y'all's

--thu guv!
'It's a lot of hard work being a mean bastard...' --Captain Eric Finlander, CO USS Bedford (The Bedford Incident)

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Offline CaptJosh

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Re: Home Base: Story #5
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2007, 01:23:04 am »
Strangle kittens?! I'm a K'zin, not a Lyran!
CaptJosh

There are only 10 kinds of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.

Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Home Base: Story #5
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2007, 10:12:16 am »
I like the Honour Harrington series, but the main thing that annoys me about it now is that all other characters either love her sycophantically or hate her with a burning passionate fury, and the ones who hate her are for petty, empire building, blind to anything but their own narrowminded concerns reasons that make you want to hate them for their stupidity.

Weber just shovels it on kinda thick, is all. I don't mind all the above in a story. In this modern world of uncertainties and PC-trumps-common sense, it's good to have a character you can get a good hate-on for and enjoy seeing them get their comeuppance and just deserts. Weber just bludgeons you with the "you must hate this person" stick instead of having normal people like or dislike Harrington to varying degrees.
Harrington's own "why me" and "i'm not worthy/just doing my job" mentality wears a bit thin after six or eight books, too.

As for Piper, she is definitely a Mary Sue. Punted up to Lieutenant Commander inside two missions right out of the Academy, brought into Kirk's inner circle of "closest trustees" after the first, put in charge of missions by Kirk over Spock in the second... her actual characterisation I have no problem with. She screws up, says dumb things, stuff like that. I really enjoyed the stories. But the add-on stuff can be annoying to someone like me who believes the Stars of the Show are Gods and everyone else should try to emulate them but not actually manage to equal them, and especially not right after graduating the Academy.

It would be like me graduating from West Point in 1942 and joining Patton's staff, and Patton putting me in charge of the invasion of Sicily with orders to show up Monty--and doing so. Which then gets me into his social circles, and I get to marry my choice of his daughters.  Or something.  ;D

Okay, maybe the analogy breaks down a little at the end there, but I trust I made my point.

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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Home Base: Story #5
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2007, 10:17:17 am »
It would be like me graduating from West Point in 1942 and joining Patton's staff, and Patton putting me in charge of the invasion of Sicily with orders to show up Monty--and doing so.

I'm actually willing to bet you'd be a better general than Montgomery. ;D
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
                                                                 ---------Rod Serling, The Last Flight

Offline Governor Ronjar

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Re: Home Base: Story #5
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2007, 10:29:19 pm »
What! Better than Monty! Hero of the free world!

Hogwash!

--thu guv!
'It's a lot of hard work being a mean bastard...' --Captain Eric Finlander, CO USS Bedford (The Bedford Incident)

'Jaken...are you pretending to be dead?' --Lord Sesshomaru, Inuyasha.