Topic: Advice for Beginning Modeller

[Scottish Andy]

What's the best 3D modelling program for a total newbie modeller? Centaurus told me he uses Milkshape for porting models from Bridge Commander, but I'm SFC only. I've had a look at 3D Studio Max 7 and 9 and they both still cost a few grand.

Any pointers and advice on how to get started? Which program is easiest to use while still giving good-quality models and costing very little or nothing?

All advice gratefully received.

Thanks!

[ModelsPlease]

What's the best 3D modelling program for a total newbie modeller? Centaurus told me he uses Milkshape for porting models from Bridge Commander, but I'm SFC only. I've had a look at 3D Studio Max 7 and 9 and they both still cost a few grand.

Any pointers and advice on how to get started? Which program is easiest to use while still giving good-quality models and costing very little or nothing?

All advice gratefully received.

Thanks!

I use MIlkshape 3d as well 

[intermech]

I use 100% Milkshape.

Pros:

It is easy to get up on the learning curve.
There are importers and exporters for many games and formats including all SFCs and Armada.
The program is extremely stable.
It is inexpensive.
Program is constantly updated with genuine support from its creator if you run into any real issues.

Cons:

Texture mapping options are limited, good mapping with Milkshape requires lots of manual interaction, however, lithium unwrap can be used to suplement.
There is no way to do an authentic SFC break model.


I have even started using Milkshape to aid in texture design along with MS Paint and Irfanview. Many PSP functions can be simulated given time and patience.

[ModelsPlease]

I have even started using Milkshape to aid in texture design along with MS Paint and Irfanview. Many PSP functions can be simulated given time and patience.

You do that too ?  I do as well along with using PSP8 and CV when needed.

[Tus-XC]

What's the best 3D modelling program for a total newbie modeller? Centaurus told me he uses Milkshape for porting models from Bridge Commander, but I'm SFC only. I've had a look at 3D Studio Max 7 and 9 and they both still cost a few grand.

Any pointers and advice on how to get started? Which program is easiest to use while still giving good-quality models and costing very little or nothing?

All advice gratefully received.

Thanks!

If you check the consolidated sticky thread there is a link to a thread that i made that has a list of many of the common apps.   My suggestion is that if your are really serious about starting to model then go w/ blender.  It is about as powerful as max or lightwave but it is 100% free.  there are also plenty of turorials associated it.  It won't port directly to sfc, but you can port to other outputs and have someone convert it for ya.

[intermech]

I agree with Tus, although I have no experience with Blender, if you are going to have to start from scratch modelling anyway, you might as well ride the wave of the future.

[Scottish Andy]

Okay guys, thanks for the advice. I had Blender for a while but just couldn't figure it out. Maybe I'll actually try the tutorials this time...

[Rod ONeal]

Milkshape and Max versions 3 thru 5 (possibly 6 as well, not sure) are the only ones that'll import and export to .mod. As mentioned, Milkshape won't do break mods. It also won't do LODs. Although most modelers don't bother with LODs. It "mirrors" the model when importing/exporting to .mod too. Makes doing registries a bit of a hassle. If you use milkshape I'd also recommend getting lithunwrap (freeware too) to help with uv mapping. It imports and exports ms3d (native milkshape fomat).
The other things that Milkshape can't do, capabilities wise, you can learn Blender and/or Gmax to do. Both are more capable than Milkshape and free. They just can't work with .mod.  

[Centurus]

Max 6 can't import/export to .mod format.  Only Max 3, 4, and 5, and 4 and 5 use the same plugins.

[Scottish Andy]

Um. Okay, so now I should get... Milkshape? With the .mod plugin?

Only modelling SFC .mod ships, remember.

[Rod ONeal]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. You could use another program to do some functions that milkshape can't do and then import it into milkshape (milkshape can import/export a gazillion formats ) to export it to .mod.
You might want to work with a mesh that's not triangulated, because it's easier to edit. You might want to join things together (boolean). You might want to "slice" the mesh not along a spline. You might want to apply smoothing by angle. Etc...

[intermech]

Go Milkshape for now, especially if you are not sure what "booleans" and "splines" are at this point. If you find that these functions are absolutely nessasary, there are tools and work-a-rounds to simulate these effects.

Here is a good Milkshape modelling tutorial. It is geared toward Armada, but the principles all apply:
http://armada2.filefront.com/file/Milk_Shape_Tutorial;3901

It "mirrors" the model when importing/exporting to .mod too. Makes doing registries a bit of a hassle.

The flipped mesh problem is easily solved in Milkshape by going to [Vertex] menu and choosing "Mirror Left <--> Right," Or by going to the [Tools] menu and choosing "mirror all." So don't let that deter you from Milkshape.

[Scottish Andy]

Excellent! Thanks, guys, I'll look into this this weekend.

[Scottish Andy]

Hi All,

I got myself Milkshape again and put in the R4 plugin. I've already managed a small alteration to a couple of models, but now I'm ready to start swapping parts from models between each other, and I can't figure out what to do.

Specific example: Move a single Oberth-style warp nacelle from one model to another. Since I can only open one model at a time, it seems hard to do. Any advice/suggestions?

[Tus-XC]

you should be able to import models into the scene, do that to get the parts you need, and delete the unwanted parts.

[Rod ONeal]

open oberth, delete everything except for the nacelle and the corresponding texture/material, save as .ms3d and close.
open 2nd model. then select file->merge and open the oberth nacelle back up. You will now have the model and the nacelle open. Do your modifications and save it as .mod and your done.
In reality you're going to want to save your work more often than that so if you make a mistake you don't have to start over. That's just the basic procedure.

You can only merge .ms3d files. You can't select file->merge and import another format. You can import a .mod and then merge an .ms3d file with it. That's why I said to save the nacelle as .ms3d so you could then merge it with the other model.

I hope I'm not confusing you. I'm not a really good teacher, unfortunately. I do my best though .

[GotAFarmYet?]

Don't have milkshape anymore so I can't screen shot it for you

But on the right you have some tabs, use those to find the model area that list the parts select them from there, and cut them. Paste them into a new page and save them that will give you the parts to start pasting them into ships. Also get use to the moving them about part. and resizing them. With the select, cut/paste, move and resize figured out you can kitbash things.

Textures with paint works, PaintShop pro costs about 80 dollars or the cost of about 2 PS2 games. With it you can do quite abit ship textures, art work and cleaning up digital pictures. It also has plenty of growth room in it, you will not out grow this program for years. PhotoShop does more and starts at 700 dollars and up, mostly needed by professionals not us ameuturs.

What I used when I was playing with things
Milkshape PaintShop Pro
all in all it cost me about 100 dollars to start making textures and ships, still do textures from time to time.

[Scottish Andy]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the tips. I'm gonna keep plaguing you, though, as I learn my way through kitbashing!

I've already managed to make my first couple of ships, very minor modifications of the Orca-class gunboat, but I altered the registries on the bitmaps too, so I'm pleased.

However, for one of my modifications I had to insert a flat box of a hull peice and when she's dressed, that piece has all the bitmaps squashed in to that new piece. The rest of the model is fine, but how do I map "clothes" onto a hull piece? Here are screenshots of what I mean, with the afflicted area in the red box:





And here's a beauty shot of my third kitbash, the Clarke-class diplomatic clipper from the 'Starfleet Dynamics' tech manual (itself taken from Jackhill's manuals, I think), with my own registry numbers:



This is a kitbash of a mesh & textures by Rick Knox, and retextured by GotAFarmYet?. I suppose you could say it has been re-re-textured by me.

Update

I've discovered the Texture Coordinate Editor, but I'm having trouble specifing how to add my new section into the appropriate bitmap. It also doesn't help (i think) that my new piece has been absorbed into the existing pylon-mesh group and I cannot select just it in Milkshape.

Another question I have is how to split existing groups. E.G. here the two paired Oberth nacelles are completely separate but are moved as one group in Milkshape. How to I separate them?

[Smiley]

Well, now you're in texturing territory!

You'll need lithunwrap, or whatever the latest version is called nowadays. The new mesh object that you created that has the whole texture map stretched over it, detach it as a separate mesh object if it is not already. Then save the whole thing as a new file.

Open the just saved file in lithunwrap, find the new mesh object in the list of meshes on the right and select it. With the object that you want to texture selected, now right click on the root labelled 'Materials'. From the context menu that appears, select 'add'.

Double click on the new material that you created ('Untitled'), select the 'Maps' tab and then from the Map Type combobox select 'bitmap' and then click properties.
Click on the 'Change' button and browse to the existing bitmap used to texture the ship, that you also want to use for this part of the ship. 'OK' and then 'OK' again.

With you new material selected, select 'Tools' > 'UV Mapping' > 'Box'
Leave the defaults as they are and click 'OK'.
You'll see that all sides of your mesh item have been separated out. Now just move them around and scale them until they show up on the model as you want them too.
You can then move the faces that you have applied to your own texture to the model creator's texture (i.e. so there is no more duplication).

You can preview the model at any time to see what the mapping looks like.

Just play around with LithUnwrap and you'll get the hang of it.

[Scottish Andy]

Thanks for the advice, Smiley! I am having trouble finding out how to detach objects from the mesh though, like in my Nacelle example above. How do I do that? It seemed to absorb it without any input from me. Is there an inverse "regroup" that I can split objects apart?

[Smiley]

I'm afraid that I don't use Milkshape, I use Max, so my ability to assist will be nothing more than an educated guess at what the appropriate equivalent functions are called in Milkshape...

You need to select the faces or polygons that you want to detach from the main mesh, then find a (presumably) context sensitive menu that gives you the option of detaching the selected faces to a new mesh object.

One of the other guys should be able to help you better with Milkshape specifics.

[Rod ONeal]

In the menu group on the top right side click "model". That will open a new menu group in the below it.
Click "select".
That will open a new menu about halfway down. You want to have it set to "face" (as opposed to vertex) and it's easier if you tic select by vertex and turn off ignore backfaces.
Now select (hilight) one of the nacelles. By dragging a box around it. You can add or subtrct from your selection by holding down the shift key. Left click and drag adds to the selection. Right click and drag removes from the selection. (You'll have to play around to get the "feel" of how to select only the polygons that you want. It's not hard with a bit of practice.)
Go back up top and select the "groups" tab.
With your nacelle still hilighted/selected click on the "regroup" button in the menu below. It'll create a new group named "regroup01 (IIRC) in the groups window. That's your nacelle grouped all by itself.
There's a window in the menu group with the new group's name in it with the button "rename" next to it. Type the name that you want for the new group into it (L_nac for example) and hit "rename".