Topic: Klingon D-7/Ktinga Class

[Don Karnage]

what is difference betwen the Klingon D-7 and the Ktinga class?

[Khalee1]

Size for one Ktinga is a little bit bigger than the D7

two kitinga has foward and aft torpedos D7 don't have any

three stronger sheilding

Four it's faster

in sfb turms the Ktinga is a first generation  x ship or the d7w if you don't buy into the Xships.

[Don Karnage]

ok thanks 

is there any info on the weapons on both ship?

[Atolm-Rising]

Uh...the TOS D7 is larger than the K'tinga...it has more mass
but yead the the TOS D7 has only a visible foward torp launcher, and it can fire disruptors fom its nacelle caps
the K'tinga has a more drawn-out and thought-out systems and details...

[Don Karnage]

the D-7 is tos and K'tinga is tmp?, i know the K'tinga is tmp only but is the D7 also tmp or did tehy replace it with the K'tinga class?

[Atolm-Rising]

the D-7 is tos and K'tinga is tmp?, i know the K'tinga is tmp only but is the D7 also tmp or did tehy replace it with the K'tinga class?

the D7 was refitted into the K'tinga according to backstage info(hence D7 K'tinga-class), but show-wise they are seperate entities...kinda

[ModelsPlease]

the D-7 is tos and K'tinga is tmp?, i know the K'tinga is tmp only but is the D7 also tmp or did tehy replace it with the K'tinga class?

the D7 was refitted into the K'tinga according to backstage info(hence D7 K'tinga-class), but show-wise they are seperate entities...kinda

FASA has them as seperate entities as well ...........

Star Trek Starship Tactical Combat Simulator On-Line Database & Archive
http://home.comcast.net/~ststcsolda/

[Fedman NCC-3758]

Interesting.

That site doesn't list the K'Vort.

[ModelsPlease]

Interesting.

That site doesn't list the K'Vort.

Maybe the L-42 is the K'vort for FASA ?

[Commander La'ra]

Depends on what source you're using.  FASA has the early D-7's with no torps, but a lot of FASA is just messed up.   ST Canon wise, the hole in the command hull is a torpedo launcher, so the D-7 clearly had one...I think we even saw them fired in one episode of Voyager. 

On the old blueprints done up in the '70's, the 'mouth' is the navigational deflector or a sensor array or something.

Basic idea is that the D-7 is to the Constitution what the K'tinga is to the Refitted Constitution (or Enterprise-class if you prefer).

[CC22]

The D7 is sveral metres longer than the later K'T'inga but I wouldn't say it had a greater mass. The later ship had more armour, uprated systems etc which would all add to its mass.

[Scottish Andy]

Speaking of mass, did you know that the entire Babylon 5 station is supposed to be 2.5 million tons? If so, how can the Galaxy class be almost 4 million tons if they are still just using the same duranium hullmetal as the 210,000 ton refitted Constitution class?

And yes, I know Scotty said she was "almost a million gross tons" and the 210K is from non-canon 'Ships of the Star Fleet'. 

[Lieutenant_Q]

Depends on what source you're using.  FASA has the early D-7's with no torps, but a lot of FASA is just messed up.   ST Canon wise, the hole in the command hull is a torpedo launcher, so the D-7 clearly had one...I think we even saw them fired in one episode of Voyager. 

On the old blueprints done up in the '70's, the 'mouth' is the navigational deflector or a sensor array or something.

Basic idea is that the D-7 is to the Constitution what the K'tinga is to the Refitted Constitution (or Enterprise-class if you prefer).

I only remember that D7 firing Disrupters in the VOY episode.

[Don Karnage]

in the tos episode the D7 does fire its disrupter at the enterprise, in the first movie the D7 was firing its aft torpedo, in st2 no Klingon ship are view, in st3 only a bop and its fire its forward torpedo, in st4 no weapons are use in st5 another bop and against its the torpedo and the disrupter, in st6 the D7 have not fire but only the bop and it fire torpedo  only, in st7 bot torpedo and disrupter from a bop, a bit weird that Klingon use only bop to attack the fed?

[Scottish Andy]

In TMP, the Klingon ship Amar fires three forward photorps at V'Ger and two aft photorps at V'ger's plasma torpedo before being "patterned for data storage". 

In STII, we see the three simulated K'tinga-classs ships (which were a simple reuse of the TMP footage) fire forward torpedoes at Saavik's Enterprise.

In STVI, the Kronos One warms up his forward torp launcher after they think Enterprise fired at them. Kronos One doesn't actually fire, but you see his forward photon tube glow red.

In DS9, there are multiple scenes from 'Way of the Warrior' showing the K't'ingas firing both ion cannons and photorps from that forward tube (though not both on the same ship).

As to why they use BoPs instead of K't'ingas to attack the Feds, maybe the Klingons were tired of losing resource-intensive cruisers and assigned all their stupidly aggressive ship captains to easily-replaceable B'rel-class PFs instead.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Praxis happened between TOS and DS9.  The Klingons started shifting more away from larger ships (although they still built their fair share of them.  One has to wonder if the destruction of Praxis forced the Klingons to go the way of the Hydrans and start building more and more attrition units.  Consider Bird of Preys (PFs or FFs) weren't all that common, although you saw a couple of them in the movies, until TNG.  They only debuted two new cruisers since the Ktinga in TMP.  The Vor'cha and the K'vort.  The K'vort is probably a light Cruiser, while the Vor'cha is definitely a Battle Cruiser.  Yet the Klingons field an ungodly number of B'rels.

B'rels can be built just about anywhere, in a short amount of time, leaving the larger shipyards to produce Vor'chas and Negh'vars.  Until Praxis the Klingons easily paced the Federation in Cruiser production, but when they lost Praxis, they realized that they couldn't keep up with them one on one.  So they concentrated on overwhelming them, while the Federation just kept building them bigger and bigger.  I don't think the Federation even considered a smaller design until the J-25 incident with the Borg.  Is it any wonder that, in Yesterday's Enterprise, the Federation was going to lose the war with the Klingons?  If they lost a half dozen B'rels for every Galaxy or Ambassador Class ships lost by the Federation, they'd be coming out even.

With a dozen B'rels escorting Vor'chas and the fact that a B'rel could suicide itself to take out a much larger ship, the Klingons had the right idea.

[Scottish Andy]

I agree up to a point, Q. Where I stop is your description of B'rels suiciding. Those are Jem'Hadar tactics, and I'm pretty sure the Klingons would find such tactics dishonourable.

Much is made of the Klingons' loss of Praxis. Losing one moon that was "their main energy production facility" does not stop a stellar empire every bit as big (or even bigger) than the UFP from having the resources to build battlecruisers. All you need for that is asteroids or planets to mine for resources and standard electronics-equivalent manufacturing capability.

If Praxis is their only or main dilithium mining project, then that would affect the number of ships they could power. A B'rel will use pretty much the same amount of dilithium as a K't'inga (based on the size of an Enterprise crystal as seen in 'The Alternative Factor' and the size of a B'rel crystal as seen in STIV), so I'd say if it is the number of ships that is limited, the Empire would build ships with far more capabilities than a B'rel. Battleships, instead of cruisers or fast patrol ships (PFs).

I'd just say that the cruisers of the Empire were off doing more important things. Putting down rebellions, conquering new planets, defending against active incursions by the Mirak, Hydrans, Sha'kurians, even Romulans (who thinks that Kang, Kor, or Koloth defeated the Roms at Klach D'kel Bracht from B'rels instead of K't'ingas?)

For patrolling the Fed border, where the Klinks know that the UFP is too spineless to attack them, they would assign squadrons of B'rels for patrol, supported by the occasional k't'inga if the situation got too heavy.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Especially when you've still got penal asteroids like Rura Penthe.

It is about the time of the Ent-B when Dilithium Crystals stop being such an important part of a Starship's Warp Drive.  By the time of the Galaxy Class, Dilithium Crystals are reduced to mere "Sparkplugs".  If Klingons acquired that technology from the Federation, it makes the loss of Praxis much less powerful.  Also one would figure that the smaller the warp drive the fewer "Sparkplugs" are needed to run them.

No, Klingons wouldn't as a rule kamikaze themselves into an enemy ship, but if they are desperate they will do what it takes to win.   "In battle nothing is more honorable than victory."

[Don Karnage]

what is the J-25 incident with the Borg?

wolf 359 was the reason the build the defiant, but i don't remember the J-25 incident?, is it the first time the Enterprise D encounter with the Borg because of Q?

[Lieutenant_Q]

The Defiant was on the drawing board before the Wolf 359 battle.  J-25 is the Q episode.  The Defiant was being designed because of that encounter.

[Scottish Andy]

Don, I think you will find this site of immense help.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Portal:Main

It is a fan-compiled Wiki database of canon Star Trek. I use it constantly. Type in your search item (like "J-25 system") and you'll get all the data on it, as well as back-stage data and speculation.

[Don Karnage]

it seem the defiant was build after wolf 359, but noting about the J-25 system, beside Ben the first time the federation encounter the Borg, since the fed did loose a lot of ship after wolf 359 it seem that was the reason the defiant was build, the first time the did not have reason to build the defiant, the only try to change the polarity of the phaser to compensate but was not enough to stop the Borg, after that seem a god reason for building the defiant, a more powerfull ship and fast, the Galaxy class was not build for war but exploration, and no other fed ship was build for war, a BoP was not powerfull enough for it and no other Klingon or romulan would be small, fast and have the firepower.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Remember what Shelby said, we have been working on new technologies (eg new weapons, new ships) but they won't be ready for another 18 months.

[Don Karnage]

i check some pics of ds9's battles and was wondering beside the Galaxy  class, Excelsior and Miranda class, what other class where in battle at Wolf 359 and the other battles the fed have, like the one agains the klingon and the dominion war?

[CC22]

In DS9 the K'T'Inga fired a disruptor from the torpedo recess, not an ion cannon. That is the remit of games, not canon Star Trek.
The D7 is thought to have torpedos since its now being established all major Klingon warships from before Enterprise (the series) to TNG have photon torpedoes. It is never seen on TOS being fired, though, and indeed the same recess on the D7 was designed as a deflector ala NCC-1701 style, but again that is not confirmed on screen. TMP saw the first on screen use of Klingon photons. The torpedoes fired by the BofP in ST3 to me appear in keeping with the original Romulan origins of the class in that it appears to be a plasma weapon. But again it is supposed to be photonic in nature I guess.
As for the mass of B5 - I have always considered this incorrect, despite what is said on the begining titles! It is 5 miles long and is a spinning metal monster with no anti grav technology constructed of materials that would be familier to todays scientists (what with B5 tech being decidedly lower than that of Trek) It must weigh more surely! Also I thought the mass of the Enterprise A to be rather small considering its size and what is meant to be contained within it!

[Don Karnage]

in the fsb the D7 have phaser 2 and not much weapons, the constitution have phaser 1 and make it a bether ship, so i was wondering since the D7 is as much powerfull as the constitution how come it got phaser 2 instead of phaser 1?

[Lieutenant_Q]

Count the Weapons...

K-D7- 9 Phaser 2s, 4 Disrupter 3s, 2 Drone - F Racks

F-CA - 6 Phaser 1s, 4 Photon Torpedoes

As you can see, the K-D7 has an edge over the F-CA in firepower

K-D7C - 6 Phaser 2s, 3 Phaser 1s, 4 Disrupter 3s, 2 Drone - B? racks, 1 ADD12

F-CC - 8 Phaser 1s, 2 Phaser 3s, 4 Photon Torpedoes, 1 Drone - G Rack, 1 ADD6

A little more balanced.

[Scottish Andy]

In DS9 the K'T'Inga fired a disruptor from the torpedo recess, not an ion cannon. That is the remit of games, not canon Star Trek.

In the DS9 episode itself, CC22, the beam coming from the photon tube is red. Bright, deep, red. Klingon (and Romulan) disruptors are green. in DS9, Federation phasers and photons are yellow-orange (though that may just have been your crappy quality NTSC TV instead of the superior PAL  ). In STII, Federation phasers are orange-red.

Ergo, the K't'ingas are not firing disruptors or standard phasers. I'll grant that maybe the finally developed those Klingon Heavy phasers, though. My saying it is an ion cannon is indeed fanon speculation, but disrupters they ain't.

Don, the SFB K-D7 is a superb attack ship. Massive and varied weaponry suite, of phasers, heavy disruptors, and drones. That these ships only have Ph2s is a range limit only. Klingons like to get in close, and up close the Ph2s have only slightly less power. Plus, the Ph2s are listed as offensive/defensive phasers. They can take out drones at greater ranges, or be used to come up close and shatter your shield because the Klink has so many of them. The Federation's Ph1s (in early, at least) only gives them a range advantage. Besides, I'd rather have the D7.

7x Ph2s (covering ALL arcs and allowing at a broadside of 5 from almost any angle), 4x Disr 3s, 2xDrn As.

Put that against the SFB F-CA.

6x Ph1 (allowing a broadside of 2, but the rear arcs are blocked at critical angles giving NO coverage), 2x Phot.

Add into that the far better manoeuverabiliy of the D7 and the F-CA's shield and hull advantage is neatly countered, and quite often superseded. In the Early era (no refits) the Federation has a range and endurance advantage. The Klingons have a "weight of firepower" and manoeuvreability advantage. Each side tries to play to their own strengths and get the enemy to the disadvantage.

This, my friends, is the main reason SFC1/2/OP is far better than SFC3. In SFC3, everyone is armed the same, with a the Feds at a cloaking disadvantage. In the Pre-3 games, different strengths and weaknesses meant it was about skill, strategy & tactics. Different strengths and weaknesses meant you had to fly differently for each race. I got rid of SFC3 after completing the single-player campaign and a few frustrating online games.

Pre-3 Rules!

[Rod ONeal]

From what I've read when Steve Cole (SFB owner) looked at the FJ schematics for the Connie and the D-7 he said the D-7 was "bristling" with phasers. The phaser 2 was invented to balance the D-7 with the Connie. Obviously, if the D-7 had the same power phasers the Connie would be terribly outgunned

As mentioned, the D-7 was balanced using the Constitution. The Disruptor, in it's basic form, does 1/2 the damage of the photon, but fires twice as often. This gives the disadvantage to the disruptor though, who needs to hit the same shield twice to have the same effect as a single photon blast. Giving the D-7 better maneuverability and an extra point of power allows the D-7 captain to choose when and where to fight. Flown correctly with NO MISTAKES, the D-7 should always beat the Connie. One mistake though and the Connie can cripple a D-7 in a single volley.
Because of the single volley damage potential of the Connie you can keep the D-7 at bay and try to force a mistake to take advantage of. Beware though, if the Connie captain makes a mistake the D-7 can be down your throat instantly, because of the fast arming nature of it's weapons, and "hack & slash" you to death. Although, generally, you have an oppertunity to recover from one mistake because the D-7 can't cripple you in a single volley. The Connie is also, unlike the D-7 which is a bit fragile, a very durable ship with superior repair capabilities.
In SFB you also have the probability of a bad roll of the dice. This, all else being equal (no mstakes by either player), will generally give the advantage to the Connie and is also why a lot of people hate it so much. More than any other vessel you're playing craps when flying a photon armed ship.
The D-7's phasers fire mainly through the #s 2, 4, & 6 shields. This allows the D-7 to close with an opponent on it's #s 1, 3, or 5 shields and with only a 30 degree turn, bring a fresh shield and the bulk of it's weapons to bare. This is where the D-7's maneuverability and power curve comes into play. The Connie wants to centerline you. It builds up a head of steam and tries to steamroll you. Another of the design attributes of the Connie is it's designed to take an alpha strike from a D-7 and still have the weapons and power to chase it down and kill it.
Drones and shuttles (you need to combine the 2 to see where the balance is between the Connie and the D-7) add another layer to the tactics, but we won't go there now. We'll save that for a D-7 vs. Kzinti BC discussion.

 

[CC22]

(though that may just have been your crappy quality NTSC TV instead of the superior PAL  )

What makes you think I'm a yank/Canadian/anyone else who has NTSC? lol.

Also why isn't it a disruptor? Have they not changed the colour of phasers and torpedoes dozens of times? Plus we see red disruptors in TOS; why not believe that it is nothing more than an uprated disruptor? Something to jazz up an old design and make it more useful in combat instead of calling it some fanciful weapon that has never been seen before on Klingon ships in a Trek series or movie? FASA FSB et al is not canon eh.

By they by, hasn't the weather been so nice in good ol' Blighty anyways... sure been fine seeing the weather reports on my PAL TV lol.

[Scottish Andy]

Excellent analysis, Rod, and thank you for it. Seems bang on to me.

CC22, my humblest apologies! *grin* I had no idea (and didn't think to check) that you might be back 'ome in Blighty. But yes, NTSC is really pants. I have to admit, though, I never saw red Klingon disruptors in TOS. Are you referring to the 'area' special effect hand weapons used in 'Errand of Mercy'? I remember that the Enterprise under fire at Organia in that ep used the 'artillery shell' special effect, but we never saw a Klingon ship at all there. The D7 disruptors in 'Elaan of Troyius' were definitely green.

I suppose we could say that these 'red beam from the torpedo tube' in DS9 K't'ingas are actually Maulers...