Topic: miranda/avenger class

[Don Karnage]

what is the difference betwen the Miranda and the avenger class?

and what is phaser cannon compare to regular phaser?

[Lieutenant_Q]

I don't think there is a difference, between the two classes.  Avenger was the name assigned to it immediately after ST:II by a non-canon fanzine.  I'm not exactly sure when the name Miranda was assigned to it, but that was considered canon and it stuck.

As for the Mega Phaser cannons, They are listed on the Avenger, but I don't seem to remember seeing them on any schematic tagging it as a Miranda.  (on the Miranda they are listed as ordinary Phasers)

[Scottish Andy]

As per the Memory Alpha article on the Miranda class, here: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Miranda_class

Name

The name Miranda-class was not mentioned in dialog on screen, but was devised by the art department of TNG to refer to this design. The name was used on several pieces of on screen signage referring to these vessels, and is also used by official references such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia.

and

Apocrypha

After its 1982 premier in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, fan produced blueprints named this ship type the Avenger Class Heavy Frigate. Further non-canon fan publications created its mid-23rd century predecessor the Surya-class. Ships of the Starfleet suggests that the prototype vessel USS Miranda had the registry NCC-1833.

Some sources have described the class as the Reliant-class.

Fanon speculation by people wanting to keep the "original" Avenger designation say that the Avenger class is a heavy frigate, with her internal layout more geared towards tactical applications, like the hanger bays being host to 1-man fighter squadrons, sensors being more limited in terms of science packages, and other facilities of a more military bent. Thus she is more suited to border guard and neutral zone duties.

The Miranda class is a general purpose cruiser in the same hullform as the Avenger, with internal space configured with VIP quarters, cargo bays, as many labs as a Constitution, more versatile science sensors, standard shuttles with maybe a few special variants (cargo, aquatic, etc). As such she is the workhorse of the fleet, running colony resupply missions, ambassadorial transport in less strategically important regions, long range or long duration science missions, etc.

As to the mega-phasers, since we saw the Reliant in a battle the Avenger was classified as a heavy frigate (despite the fact that she was on a science mission). Fanboys and gun-bunnies seem to forget the Federation is a peacenik operation despite their armed ships and are constantly assigning hugely inappropriate amounts of firepower to Fed ships.

A quick examination of the battle itself shows the Reliant's "phaser cannons" inflicting pretty much the same level of damage as Enterprise's standard saucer phasers, so there was no real reason to call them "mega phasers", IMHO.

My take on that is, since the Klingon heavy disruptors (the green crap a D7 fired from its nacelles in 'TOS: Elaan of Troyius') can be fired while the D7 was at warp speed, and phasers are supposed to be lightspeed-only, the "mega-phasers" was Starfleet's way of pushing standard phasers into warp-speed phasers. Pure conjection on my part, but take it for what it's worth.

[Lieutenant_Q]

yeah but that doesnt make any sense in of it self, because Phasers were fired at warp speeds all the time in TOS.  I do agree that those Phasers were probably the only phaser banks on the Reliant at the time because they were the only one that Khan ever fired.  (clearly the model did show a forward saucer phaser bank T/B but they were never fired)

[Scottish Andy]

Actually Q, that's something I heartily disagree with. Since Khan only fired the rollbar-mounted phasers, the games 'Starfleet Academy' and 'Klingon Academy' only had their Mirandas firing from there as well, which made a really good ship horribly underarmed for her size.

Reliant had a full set of saucer phaser emitters. In the battle to retake DS9 and in the Battle of Cardassia, we see the Miranda-class Shirkahr (or maybe its the Majestic) fire from the forward emitter on the underside of the saucer. I have no doubt that the Miranda-class saucer phaser emitters are in place and functional.

[Commander La'ra]

I think the continued use of the term 'Avenger-class' is just an attempt to keep an old fanboy name alive, and has no bearing on the canon designation of the ship.

You see 'Mega-phaser' units on a lot of old fan-generated designs, as well as transwarp drive units and cloaking devices (on Fed ships).  There's nothing in any of the actual source material that refers or even implies the existence of a 'mega-phaser'.

The Reliant pretty clearly had more than just the rollbar phasers, though.

[Don Karnage]

I think the continued use of the term 'Avenger-class' is just an attempt to keep an old fanboy name alive, and has no bearing on the canon designation of the ship.

You see 'Mega-phaser' units on a lot of old fan-generated designs, as well as transwarp drive units and cloaking devices (on Fed ships).  There's nothing in any of the actual source material that refers or even implies the existence of a 'mega-phaser'.

The Reliant pretty clearly had more than just the rollbar phasers, though.

the call it "phaser cannon", but i still don't know what are they compare to regular one, we see khan use them instead on the one on the saucer but we don't know why, maybe someone official could clear it up for us?

[Lieutenant_Q]

Sure other Miranda Class Ships do have them, but since the Reliant was doing science missions, its possible that that Miranda class is modular (something evidenced by the Miranda appearing in various configurations through out the century) and that in its particular configuration, the Phaser Capacitor for the Saucer hardpoints was removed to fit an extra science lab or three.

I'm not saying that the Miranda doesn't have them, in fact I specifically mentioned that the Model does have the forward saucer phasers (T/B), I'm just saying that because the Reliant was in a science package configuration, they were some-how inoperative.

[Scottish Andy]

DonKarnage, according to the semi-official 'Deep Space Nine technical Manual', which includes a lot of behind the scenes data and background but which is kinda rubbish for actual ship data, the Miranda class entry says she is armed with six type-7 phaser emitters (which correspond to the six twinned turrets on the saucer, 3 top, 3 bottom) and "two pulse phaser cannons". You can take this to mean that the Mirandas were/are armed with the 23rd-century equivalent of the Defiant's pulse phasers. Indeed, the Reliant does fire in pulses, but so does the Enterprise from her saucer phaser emitters.

There is no official explanation. Which is why so many different fanon explanations exist. The DS9TM is the closest-to-official source we have, but it got so many other things wrong I'd rather not rely on it.

Since the Miranda was meant to be a less expensive, more numerous stablemate to the Constitution class, on border patrol and science surveys to free up their "bigger sisters" for actual exploration work, its fair to assume a border guard ship would have more or better weapons such as pulse phasers.

[Don Karnage]

but does paramount have or rick berman who produce voyager and other startrek show have info on it?

[Scottish Andy]

Nope. Like I said, the closest thing to canon/'official" we fans have is the DS9 Tech Manual.

[Don Karnage]

weird, its there creation they should know, then is there official spec for the constitution class and the refit from st-1 to st-6?, the weapons specs i was wondering? (beside sfb)

[Scottish Andy]

Go here: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Constitution_class

This will tell you all the "canon" stats for the Constitution class, TOS and Refit.

[Don Karnage]

where the aft torpedo are fired from on the constitution class?

[Lieutenant_Q]

The Aft Torpedo tube was added after Enterprise's "In a Mirror Darkly, Part 2"  They were fired from the dome above the Shuttle Bay.  Many are still (and rightfully so) pissed about that.  But since it was seen on screen, its now canon.

[Don Karnage]

yea, it was stupid of them to make it fire from that place, the phaser is ok but since the refit never have a torpedo tube at the back that make it not real, maybe we should ignore that and not considering it cannon since it doesn't make sense, i will.

[Commander La'ra]

It makes less sense for them to not have the option of firing the ship's most powerful weapon anywhere but into the frontal arc.

[Vipre]

I've gotta run with the "C'mon" defense. For over thirty years it's been clearly established and accepted that the Enterprise 1701 & 01-A has never had the ability to fire a rear arc torpedo. Why not just go with "The Defiant had a rear firing torpedo but it wasn't standard for the class" Woooaahh looky there solved everything. 

[Rod ONeal]

Didn't Gene say, "It's only canon if it doesn't contradict what has already been established as canon."  I believe he said it was just "sloppy script writing", not canon. That describes "Enterprise" pretty well for me. 

[Don Karnage]

also after 100 to 150 years the mirror univers never devellope news technoligy from the defiant and only copy that and build don't know how many ship with that and keep it for that long, it seem so unreal that after 150 years the still use the same technology.