Topic: miranda/avenger class

[Don Karnage]

what is the difference betwen the Miranda and the avenger class?

and what is phaser cannon compare to regular phaser?

[Lieutenant_Q]

I don't think there is a difference, between the two classes.  Avenger was the name assigned to it immediately after ST:II by a non-canon fanzine.  I'm not exactly sure when the name Miranda was assigned to it, but that was considered canon and it stuck.

As for the Mega Phaser cannons, They are listed on the Avenger, but I don't seem to remember seeing them on any schematic tagging it as a Miranda.  (on the Miranda they are listed as ordinary Phasers)

[Scottish Andy]

As per the Memory Alpha article on the Miranda class, here: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Miranda_class

Name

The name Miranda-class was not mentioned in dialog on screen, but was devised by the art department of TNG to refer to this design. The name was used on several pieces of on screen signage referring to these vessels, and is also used by official references such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia.

and

Apocrypha

After its 1982 premier in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, fan produced blueprints named this ship type the Avenger Class Heavy Frigate. Further non-canon fan publications created its mid-23rd century predecessor the Surya-class. Ships of the Starfleet suggests that the prototype vessel USS Miranda had the registry NCC-1833.

Some sources have described the class as the Reliant-class.

Fanon speculation by people wanting to keep the "original" Avenger designation say that the Avenger class is a heavy frigate, with her internal layout more geared towards tactical applications, like the hanger bays being host to 1-man fighter squadrons, sensors being more limited in terms of science packages, and other facilities of a more military bent. Thus she is more suited to border guard and neutral zone duties.

The Miranda class is a general purpose cruiser in the same hullform as the Avenger, with internal space configured with VIP quarters, cargo bays, as many labs as a Constitution, more versatile science sensors, standard shuttles with maybe a few special variants (cargo, aquatic, etc). As such she is the workhorse of the fleet, running colony resupply missions, ambassadorial transport in less strategically important regions, long range or long duration science missions, etc.

As to the mega-phasers, since we saw the Reliant in a battle the Avenger was classified as a heavy frigate (despite the fact that she was on a science mission). Fanboys and gun-bunnies seem to forget the Federation is a peacenik operation despite their armed ships and are constantly assigning hugely inappropriate amounts of firepower to Fed ships.

A quick examination of the battle itself shows the Reliant's "phaser cannons" inflicting pretty much the same level of damage as Enterprise's standard saucer phasers, so there was no real reason to call them "mega phasers", IMHO.

My take on that is, since the Klingon heavy disruptors (the green crap a D7 fired from its nacelles in 'TOS: Elaan of Troyius') can be fired while the D7 was at warp speed, and phasers are supposed to be lightspeed-only, the "mega-phasers" was Starfleet's way of pushing standard phasers into warp-speed phasers. Pure conjection on my part, but take it for what it's worth.

[Lieutenant_Q]

yeah but that doesnt make any sense in of it self, because Phasers were fired at warp speeds all the time in TOS.  I do agree that those Phasers were probably the only phaser banks on the Reliant at the time because they were the only one that Khan ever fired.  (clearly the model did show a forward saucer phaser bank T/B but they were never fired)

[Scottish Andy]

Actually Q, that's something I heartily disagree with. Since Khan only fired the rollbar-mounted phasers, the games 'Starfleet Academy' and 'Klingon Academy' only had their Mirandas firing from there as well, which made a really good ship horribly underarmed for her size.

Reliant had a full set of saucer phaser emitters. In the battle to retake DS9 and in the Battle of Cardassia, we see the Miranda-class Shirkahr (or maybe its the Majestic) fire from the forward emitter on the underside of the saucer. I have no doubt that the Miranda-class saucer phaser emitters are in place and functional.

[Commander La'ra]

I think the continued use of the term 'Avenger-class' is just an attempt to keep an old fanboy name alive, and has no bearing on the canon designation of the ship.

You see 'Mega-phaser' units on a lot of old fan-generated designs, as well as transwarp drive units and cloaking devices (on Fed ships).  There's nothing in any of the actual source material that refers or even implies the existence of a 'mega-phaser'.

The Reliant pretty clearly had more than just the rollbar phasers, though.

[Don Karnage]

I think the continued use of the term 'Avenger-class' is just an attempt to keep an old fanboy name alive, and has no bearing on the canon designation of the ship.

You see 'Mega-phaser' units on a lot of old fan-generated designs, as well as transwarp drive units and cloaking devices (on Fed ships).  There's nothing in any of the actual source material that refers or even implies the existence of a 'mega-phaser'.

The Reliant pretty clearly had more than just the rollbar phasers, though.

the call it "phaser cannon", but i still don't know what are they compare to regular one, we see khan use them instead on the one on the saucer but we don't know why, maybe someone official could clear it up for us?

[Lieutenant_Q]

Sure other Miranda Class Ships do have them, but since the Reliant was doing science missions, its possible that that Miranda class is modular (something evidenced by the Miranda appearing in various configurations through out the century) and that in its particular configuration, the Phaser Capacitor for the Saucer hardpoints was removed to fit an extra science lab or three.

I'm not saying that the Miranda doesn't have them, in fact I specifically mentioned that the Model does have the forward saucer phasers (T/B), I'm just saying that because the Reliant was in a science package configuration, they were some-how inoperative.

[Scottish Andy]

DonKarnage, according to the semi-official 'Deep Space Nine technical Manual', which includes a lot of behind the scenes data and background but which is kinda rubbish for actual ship data, the Miranda class entry says she is armed with six type-7 phaser emitters (which correspond to the six twinned turrets on the saucer, 3 top, 3 bottom) and "two pulse phaser cannons". You can take this to mean that the Mirandas were/are armed with the 23rd-century equivalent of the Defiant's pulse phasers. Indeed, the Reliant does fire in pulses, but so does the Enterprise from her saucer phaser emitters.

There is no official explanation. Which is why so many different fanon explanations exist. The DS9TM is the closest-to-official source we have, but it got so many other things wrong I'd rather not rely on it.

Since the Miranda was meant to be a less expensive, more numerous stablemate to the Constitution class, on border patrol and science surveys to free up their "bigger sisters" for actual exploration work, its fair to assume a border guard ship would have more or better weapons such as pulse phasers.

[Don Karnage]

but does paramount have or rick berman who produce voyager and other startrek show have info on it?

[Scottish Andy]

Nope. Like I said, the closest thing to canon/'official" we fans have is the DS9 Tech Manual.

[Don Karnage]

weird, its there creation they should know, then is there official spec for the constitution class and the refit from st-1 to st-6?, the weapons specs i was wondering? (beside sfb)

[Scottish Andy]

Go here: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Constitution_class

This will tell you all the "canon" stats for the Constitution class, TOS and Refit.

[Don Karnage]

where the aft torpedo are fired from on the constitution class?

[Lieutenant_Q]

The Aft Torpedo tube was added after Enterprise's "In a Mirror Darkly, Part 2"  They were fired from the dome above the Shuttle Bay.  Many are still (and rightfully so) pissed about that.  But since it was seen on screen, its now canon.

[Don Karnage]

yea, it was stupid of them to make it fire from that place, the phaser is ok but since the refit never have a torpedo tube at the back that make it not real, maybe we should ignore that and not considering it cannon since it doesn't make sense, i will.

[Commander La'ra]

It makes less sense for them to not have the option of firing the ship's most powerful weapon anywhere but into the frontal arc.

[Vipre]

I've gotta run with the "C'mon" defense. For over thirty years it's been clearly established and accepted that the Enterprise 1701 & 01-A has never had the ability to fire a rear arc torpedo. Why not just go with "The Defiant had a rear firing torpedo but it wasn't standard for the class" Woooaahh looky there solved everything. 

[Rod ONeal]

Didn't Gene say, "It's only canon if it doesn't contradict what has already been established as canon."  I believe he said it was just "sloppy script writing", not canon. That describes "Enterprise" pretty well for me. 

[Don Karnage]

also after 100 to 150 years the mirror univers never devellope news technoligy from the defiant and only copy that and build don't know how many ship with that and keep it for that long, it seem so unreal that after 150 years the still use the same technology.

[Vipre]

Didn't Gene say, "It's only canon if it doesn't contradict what has already been established as canon."  I believe he said it was just "sloppy script writing", not canon. That describes "Enterprise" pretty well for me. 

See there, who are we to contradict Gene. Shaaame on us
Besides I take everything about "Enterprise" with a bucket of salt.

[Commander La'ra]

For over thirty years it's been clearly established and accepted that the Enterprise 1701 & 01-A has never had the ability to fire a rear arc torpedo.

No, it hasn't.  We never saw them fired, true, but we also never heard a character say 'The NCC-1701 does not have a rear-firing torpedo', nor has there been any onscreen technical data that says the NCC-1701 had no rear-firing torpedo.

I am actually not a huge canon nut.  I really don't care what is or is not canon...but people saying 'oh that's not right' or 'but that contradicts A, B, and C' when in fact it doesn't...it irritates me.  Bane of Sci-Fi fanfic writers everywhere.

[Vipre]

For over thirty years it's been clearly established and accepted that the Enterprise 1701 & 01-A has never had the ability to fire a rear arc torpedo.

No, it hasn't. We never saw them fired, true, but we also never heard a character say 'The NCC-1701 does not have a rear-firing torpedo', nor has there been any onscreen technical data that says the NCC-1701 had no rear-firing torpedo.

I am actually not a huge canon nut. I really don't care what is or is not canon...but people saying 'oh that's not right' or 'but that contradicts A, B, and C' when in fact it doesn't...it irritates me. Bane of Sci-Fi fanfic writers everywhere.

But that in itself is my point. Watch every episode of and every movie of and if you like read every book about or comic book about Star Treks TOS/TMP Constitution class starship. You'll find two things, one is every weapon ever mentioned or accepted as being there has been fired at least once, and the other is nobody in command during a fight has ever ordered the rear torpedo tube fired because there wasn't one.

Critique away but I stand by my statement, before 'In a Mirror Darkly' if someone had asked 'Does the Connie have a rear firing torpedo tube?' everyone would have answered 'No' without pause. It was absolutely an accepted fact. Saying that just because it wasn't stated onscreen makes a difference is a copout.

Just pay attention to the second half of that post. Just because the Defiant had a rear firing tube in that episode doesn't mean it was standard to all Constitution class ships. The Enterprise never had a rear firing torpedo tube end of story.

[Governor Ronjar]

OMFG...

I figured the first one I'd click on would have an arguement about canon...

And what's the poster-child for a canon arguement? What guns a starship has. And people get pissed over it too. It has THIS many phasers...At THIS time period its supposed to have LASERS...There are NO aft torpedo launchers...

Whatever. The thing had whatever they wrote it to have in that particular episode, and whatever they could afford. I still remember in 'Paradise Syndrome', Spock calling out "Fire Phaser One...Two...Three" And you know what...?  They ALL came from the same damn place.

Why? Cause they had a dinky-ass little budget. You couldn't film a modern comercial with the budget they had for that show then. Therefor, they made one or two good phaser shot effects it the direction Kirk (as a manly man) would most often be firing them: Forward.

Had they today's (equivelent) budget and digital VFX, then (being the '60's) you probably would have seen guns shooting from all over that goofy looking ship. And they probably wouldn't have been in the same place every time.

I used to be a canon hound, particularly for tech manuals. Till I started seeing them get things 'wrong' on the series... THEN I realized that they really don't care about all the novel details that most Trekkies glorify. They're MAKING MONEY off those Trekkies.

So how does that influence your ideas on 'canon'?

--thu guv!
Pissin' off the world...one person at a time...

[Rod ONeal]

I just love reading all of the ranting rationalizations to cover up the fact that the guy(s) who wrote this weeks episode have no idea where the "guns" were in last weeks episode. ...and from your other post, what's wrong with a 300+ meter bird o' prey hovering over that whaler or the 50 (or so) meter bird o' prey that they climbed out of sinking in SF bay. They're both canon, right?

[Scottish Andy]

Vipre:

Watch every episode of and every movie of and if you like read every book about or comic book about Star Treks TOS/TMP Constitution class starship. You'll find two things, one is every weapon ever mentioned or accepted as being there has been fired at least once, and the other is nobody in command during a fight has ever ordered the rear torpedo tube fired because there wasn't one.

Sorry to disappoint. Diane Duane's first Rihannsu book, 'My Enemy, My Ally' has the Enterprise firing aft torpedoes while fighting beside Ael's Bloodwing against 4 Romulan ships.

My take on cannon is the same as Larry's:

If it has been seen on screen, it is 90% "The Way It Is", with 10% wiggle room to fudge for poor story-writing and lack of continuity for whatever reason (lack of budget, no time to check Memory Alpha, etc.)

If it hasn't been seen on screen, it is not canon. But if it hasn't been seen on screen, it doesn't mean it might not be later on. The E-D has two--two!--torpedo tubes; fore and aft. But the forward one can burst-fire at least 4 at once ('TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise' - torpedoes split apart after launching), and I have a clip of about 10 being fired inside of 2 seconds. It doesn't need to be armed with 10 tubes. But 2 tubes sounds wimpy. So, the E-E has 12 tubes firing more like the original refit Enterprise and Reliant.

Semi-canon schematics from backstage sources are fantastic as it conveys the original intent, but they will still be replaced if the next set of producers want something different. Fanon schematics will do when nothing else is known as they help fill in the blanks. I love my fanon Miranda-class deck plans. But when something new is shown on screen, it is automatically canon.

I personally would prefer Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens' book 'Federation' as the canon version of Zephram Cochrane's life, and Margaret Wander Bonano's 'Strangers From the Sky' as the canon version of Earth's First Contact. Both are fantastic, entertaining stories, but both have since been supplanted by 'Star Trek VIII: First Contact'. Arguably the best of the TNG movies, but I still prefer the books.

If we agree that 90% of what is seen on screen is canon for Trek, barring budget constraints and inattention to continuity issues, then that is the "Truth" for Star Trek. And the "Truth" is always unwelcome as it destroys someone else's closely cherished "in the absence of hard datas speculations.

As my wife says, "Put on your big girl panties and deal with it!" 

[Vipre]

I knew it. I knew the minute I wrote it that someone somewhere would find an example.  Oh well, I can only be perfect for so many hours of the day. On the bright side all of this "is canon/isn't canon/should be canon/shouldn't be canon" arguing is making me laugh so hard that my eyes are watering.

Now if everyone could just agree that I'm right we can put it all to rest.

[Don Karnage]

its true that if you see it on tv its cannon, well you will have a problem with that since startrek, startrek anime, tng, ds9. voyager and enterprise is not following one each other and we have see it in many episodes, in tng when scotty was in hollodeck picard says its a constitution class for the enterprise, not sure if in statrek the call it a constitution class, in st2 we see the reliant use its cannon phaser and we don't know if there more powerfull that the phaser on the saucer or not since we never see them use in tng/ds9 and the never mention what weapons the miranda have, in startrek when kirk enconter cokhrane he says he was from another planet not earth but in startrek first contact and enterprise cokhrane was from earth, its hard to know what are the fact in startrek when the fact are not consistante in startrek's, the constellation was supose to be 1710 but the show it at 1017, so if in statrek history the first ship of the constitution class to be build was the constitution 1700 the constellation should be 1710, sure the give it a number before 1700 for some reason that are a bit weird but still its not in a way logic to give it a number before 1700, some ship like the enterprise gate the "A" for a new ship and the defiant or defiant 2 keep its old number, so we just have to accept the fact that its only 90% cannon and no books manuals series and what ever else will be made will keep in mind fact from the original startrek.

or we can says that each startrek series is from parallel univers, that would explain the inconsistance in every startrek stuff made, movies, series, books manuals, and all that is or will be.

[Scottish Andy]

Geez Don, that was incredibly hard to read! You post like my dad writes emails! Try some punctuation, I find it really helps with the reading experience.

That said, I think you just agreed with me. Shows that you're smart! 

[Don Karnage]

well its fact that there not follow up in the startrek's series and episodes

so we have to take it like it is 

[Governor Ronjar]

or we can says that each startrek series is from parallel univers, that would explain the inconsistance in every startrek stuff made

Let's go one further...

EACH EPISODE is in a different parallel universe...

Then...they can do what the hell they want. Not that they won't anyway.

--thu guv!

[Commander La'ra]

Pissin' off the world...one person at a time...

 

[Don Karnage]

also in startrek the motion picture (1) the show all the previous ship call Enterprise, but you don't see the Enterprise NX-01, that would also sugjest that no startrek series follow or go before previous series, if the would stay to the fact in startrek that would be very good.

but there just no follow up.

[Panzergranate]

The only reference to it being an Avebger is in the Ships of the Star Fleet book, which is where we also find the Akula Class PA.

The book is intended for the SFB universe.

The book also double issues NCC numbers if you read carefully.

Most people stick with Miranda Class as it fits in well with other Greek gods and titans names used on Federation ships.

As for the mega phaser thing, er..... they're the big turreted things found on New Hampshire cruisers and Soyuz Class heavy frigates!!

The pylon phasers on the Miranda and lesser Knox Class frigate are the stock hull phasers mounted externally. They cover the big blind spot in the firing arc towards the rear of the ship that the saucer phasers can't cover. Try shooting at chasing ships or drones with a pylon phaserless Daran, Darter of Decisive Class frigate to appriciate these additions!!

It probally explains why the USS Kingfisher image NCC 3235, a Decisive Class frigate, has had Pylon Phasers fitted post commisioning!! They don't have them originally if you check the books!!

Pylon phasers are just externally mounted saucer phaser turret mounts.

[Panzergranate]

The NCC 1017 is an upgrade from another Class.

The Defiance NCC 1764 in Enterprise and TOS is listed as an Achenar Class F-CB and therefore has aft torpedo firing.

Tholians are only said to be crystaline spider like creatures in SFB literature. ENT played homage to SFB for keeping ST alive by showing Tholians as Crystaline spider like creatures!!

Drones in SFB and SFC came from the TOS episode "Errand of Mercy" where the Enterprise is shown under attack from Klingon missiles fired from off screen warships.

The Klingons don't have torpedoes until TMP 1!!

ENT does seem to be wriiten by folks who've been stuck in stasis for 50 years and never, ever seen or read anything about Star Trek!! I think Gene Roddenberry would be furious with the show!!

[Lieutenant_Q]

I have the NCC-1017 being a precedent for the NX-74205 being transferred to the Sao Paulo (The Second Defiant in DS9)  Seems more probable than the Constellation being an upgrade from another class of ship.  A Ship of merit lost in a valiant battle, being resurrected as the third ship in the "Pride of Starfleet": The Consitution Class. 

However the idea that they left the 1500 and 1600 Registries for later use seems, silly.  Just like the D5 being saved for the Klingon War Cruiser.

[Panzergranate]

In ENT the Defiance is a Achenar Class CB, not a CA as with the Connies. It could well have had aft torpedoes though yet I'm yet to find a book that Achenars having them.

We also don't see where the Defiance fire the torpedoes from. However in the TOS series the connies fire torpedoes from either side of the lower saucer blister. The torpedoes sort of form there, grow larger and then shoot off towards the target. It would be possible for the torpedoes to also fire rearwards past the neck in the same way. I did some measuing on a scale connie model to confirm this.

It is interesting that only Star Fleet Battles ever described Tholians as crystaline spider like creatures, TOS only described them as crystaine. In ENT they are depicted as crystaline spider like creatures. Homage perhap for al the licence revenue ADB brought in for Paramount??
 
Miranda fits in with Star Fleet's Greek god and goddess naming trends. It also sounds less warlike than Avenger does.

The Pylon phasers are necessary as they cover that huge aft blind spot in the saucer's firing arc. Try out a Daran, Darter or Decisive Class frigate as these don't run these originally. 

I see that Scottish Andy shows the USS Kingfisher (a Decisive Class frigate) after the the pylons were added.

Perhaps in ST TM 2, Khan's crew didn't know that <SHIFT> Z fired all the phasers at the same time!!

[Magnum357]

It is interesting that only Star Fleet Battles ever described Tholians as crystaline spider like creatures, TOS only described them as crystaine. In ENT they are depicted as crystaline spider like creatures. Homage perhap for al the licence revenue ADB brought in for Paramount??
 

I must say, I dont know were you guys get all these thoeries from.  In all the SFB material I have, not once did I ever read that the Tholians were "spider" like.  As a matter of Fact, in the material I have of SFB, they don't describe them much at all except what a TOS ep showed what they looked like.  Maybe you guys are getting confused with the Seletolians.

As for the Avenger/Miranda class ship, again, all my SFB material does not describe what SFB ship matches with those Class names.  In Federation Commander game (a streamlined version of SFB) it says the the RELIANT is regestered NCC-1501.  So if its labeled that in Fed Commander/SFB, and the Relaint is Regestered NCC-1824 or something like that in TWOK, how can you comepare the two?? 

This is why I can't see Star Trek and SFB as the same universe (or should I say Story), they don't corespond with one another.

[Hexx]

It's from people unwilling to accept that the whole OS didn't really follow canon.
And not much has improved since.

As has been pointed out many, many times before- modern naval ships often have differences (even numbers and types of wepons) between ships if the same class. No reason to think the future will be any different.
Defiant had rear photons. Enterpirse did not.
Reliant was outfitted for reseearchm hence it had less weapons than some others of the same class.

And yeah- don't remember Tholians being described as spiderlike anywhere. Though given the webs I'm sure it's been done in fanfic a few hundred times before we saw them in Enterprise.

[Rod ONeal]

I believe it was in a "Captain's Log" (SFB monthly magazine) that they showed 2 different Tholian beings. One was the "torso with a head" type of creature that I believe came from TOS. The other was a spider like creature very much like the Tholian shown in the "Enterprise" episode. The 2nd one was the species that was a part of Tholian boarding parties for 1st person combat. Sorry, I'm not enough of a fan to be able to point directly to my references for it. Hopefully you can just believe that I'm not making it up.

The reason the Defiant had rear firing torps is because the script called for it. Since there aren't any visible hard points in TOS they can throw weapons wherever this weeks script calls for them. My problem with rear firing photons on a Fed is it seems out of racial character. I figure Feds would stand up face to face with their enemy, not fire in retreat. It's the same type of problem I have with cloaks on Klingons. Not very honorable to sneak around like that, IMO.

..and no, SFB is not canon. Could you imagine trying to design a balanced game around all of the inconsistencies? I really find it amazing that people can still find continuity in Trek. I gave up a long time ago. More power to those who still can though. I really doubt that the writers are at all concerned with any continuity beyond what they are working on.

[Panzergranate]

If you play the aft torpedo firing scene form "In The Mirror Darkly"  over and over you'll see that they come from under the saucer and around the neck. In TOS the torpedoes always fired from either side of the lower sensor dome, so they could easiy also fire rearward from here as they would still miss the neck.

Only Franz Joseph put the torpedo launchers in the front of the command section on top of the bridge and it has stuck in Fandom ever since. A similar thing has started with the Stargazer as some dipictions have the torpedo launchers on the top and bottom of the warp nacelle pylons. If you watch the TNG episode and also happen to have a model, the torpedoes fire from under the forward hangar on the saucer. There are also two seperate undr saucer phaser mounts here as seen firing in the TNG episode "Peak performance".

In the TOS episode "The Doomeday Machine" the Constellation fires from the upper starboard side saucer phaser.

"Aft Phaser Ready!!", is heard over the tannoy on the bridge in many TOS episodes.

Also in the TOS episode "The Balance Of Terror" Kirk yells, "Forward Phaser Room Fire!!" serveral times.

Klingon ships are seen to fire missile drones in the TOS Episode "Errand of Mercy" and reference is made to "Old Mercurite Miissiles" in TNG episodes by Klingon renegades.

ENT plays hamage to SFB by depicting Tholians as spider like cyrstline creatures. Only SFB ever mentioned that Tholians were spider like creatures. Riker also is mentioned to have calculated how to evade a Tholian Dreadnaught, another SFB invention. The Tholians actually only have two dreadnaughts.

I found it odd that the Terran Empire would have only progressed to replicating the Achinar Class Defiance after 100 years but perhaps, to ensure total domination and compliance of the empire, Empress Hoshi reserved the technology solely for her own use, to ensure no challengers to her authority.

It happened in IRAQ with only Saddam's chosen and loyal had proper tanks.

Stalin also did something similar as during 1930 to 1941, the Red Army had the some of the most advanced tanks in the world. However Stalin decreed that only command tanks, and only some would have radios whilst the rest would only have receivers if they were lucky. Many tank to tank communications when the Axis forces invaded was by waving flags only. A single barrage of smoke shells used to screw up command and control in Russian tank units.

Basically if you're the boss of a dictatorship, you make sure that only your closest freinds have the best weapons.