Topic: RED ALERT! Open Source Version of SFC NEEDED for MAC and Linux Gamers!!!

[HudsonMan34]

I LOVE the Original Starfleet Command Gold Edition BUT I do not own Windows anymore NOR am I going back to it.

I LOVE my MAC mini and my Fedora Core Laptop, I refuse to go back to Windows to play one of my favorite games : SFC.

So, I want to encourage the SFC programmers to release the Source Code as GPL thus making it open source AND games
based on it can be made for both MAC OS X and RPM-based Linux OS platforms.  Windows Vista is NOT the ONLY gaming
platform out there, MAC OS X and Linux are THE better OSes to play great games on.  If this gets made, perhaps a Linux
OS DVD with the Open Source SFC can be also be played on a PS2 or PS3 and/or X-Box 360 OR even WII!  The future
of Star Trek will continue if GOOD games of it are made as well.  Live long and be happy! - Patrick Stewart

Mark McLaughlin - Trek Gamer/Trek Fan/Writer/Voter - markmc34@verizon.net

[KBF-Crim]

Dont hold your breath mark...we've been trying to get the source for years....we dont even know if ANYONE has a copy of it anymore...

 

[Lepton]

What's this guys been smoking?  Screw Linux and OS X.  How about open-sourcing it in its native environment first, lol?  Or if you like Linux so much, buy the #%%$^ game and get it working under wine.

[Commander Maxillius]

Probably something that made him forget about the rude responses that a certain poster usually responds with.


Personally, I'd like to know if it's possible to reverse enginneer the end product then rebuild it on MacOS

[Centurus]

Probably something that made him forget about the rude responses that a certain poster usually responds with.


Personally, I'd like to know if it's possible to reverse enginneer the end product then rebuild it on MacOS

You get an experienced programmer with all the best tools and programs around, and he or she can reverse engineer the game and reconfigure the code so it can only operate a toaster.

It is possible.  Question is, would anyone willingly do it for the community.

[Lepton]

A further alternative would be to amass a group of people who'd be willing to pay the Cegeda guys to get SFC working under Linux, but asking for open source to Linux/MacOS is silly as the game is coded for Windows.

[Scott_Bruno]

There are a lot of talented people in this community... getting them together to (re)create the game as a full conversion, using Source or Unreal, and in your own image, sounds like a worthwhile cause. For damn sure you'd be starting off with a better renderer and net layer, and you even get a dedicated server. Lots of possibilities there.

Unfortunately getting the SFC source code and assets released to the public seems iffy at best. There are a few parties that would have to care enough to get together and make it happen. If I had it I would have accidentally mailed the stuff to Frey by now, but I don't 

[RazalYllib]

HOLY ION Exhaust!!!

Scott...

Just give us names and addresses ...

Would have to care ... many moons ago, Mr Bethke stated very clearly the intention to release
Who else?

[Skaren]

Lepton,..

never mind

I will keep my mouth shut, but I bet you know what I am thinking.

[KBF-Crim]

There are a lot of talented people in this community... getting them together to (re)create the game as a full conversion, using Source or Unreal, and in your own image, sounds like a worthwhile cause. For damn sure you'd be starting off with a better renderer and net layer, and you even get a dedicated server. Lots of possibilities there.

Unfortunately getting the SFC source code and assets released to the public seems iffy at best. There are a few parties that would have to care enough to get together and make it happen. If I had it I would have accidentally mailed the stuff to Frey by now, but I don't 

That's ok Krumb...you STILL rock...

[Scott_Bruno]

HOLY ION Exhaust!!!

Scott...

Just give us names and addresses ...

Would have to care ... many moons ago, Mr Bethke stated very clearly the intention to release
Who else?

Hah! Yeah I'm sure he'll get right on that

Back here in Reality Land, I'm not even sure which or how many entities would be involved. Somewhere between Activision and Paramount I guess, and the odds of those two coming together to make a Trek-licensed product free are right up there with my chances of being crowned Miss Teen U.S.A.

I'm not saying it could never happen, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

[KBF-Crim]

Last we heard...Ken was going to give us the source.....then poof...he disappeared...

*shrug*

The code as far as we were told was a taldren asset...not paramount nor acti...

So ...yeah...if you happen to run into the beast....give us a shout...

Hell....we'll even take up a collection....

[KBF MalaK]

Probably something that made him forget about the rude responses that a certain poster usually responds with.


Personally, I'd like to know if it's possible to reverse enginneer the end product then rebuild it on MacOS

You get an experienced programmer with all the best tools and programs around, and he or she can reverse engineer the game and reconfigure the code so it can only operate a toaster.

It is possible.  Question is, would anyone willingly do it for the community.

I believe it's illegal- read your EULA.

As for the Mac guy- doesn't Mac OS v.10 and above run windows apps ?? I seem to remember installing MSoffice on my sisters mac not too long ago and it ran fine. Maybe there's a win emulator for mac that you can make SFC run under.

...But getting source code ??? LOL, s'cuse me while I contain my laughter.

[Pestalence_XC]

One thing you guys are forgetting is Quicksilver.. they refuse to release the code to the Sprites.q3 file which is the heart of the game engine.. without their consent and release of the original source code for the file.. reverse engineering would be futile and illegal.

Also, the Source Code is Taldren's however the Rights to release the Source is not only Taldren's decision, but Interplay's and QuickSilver's as well.. the Original SFC was done in house at Interplay remember.. SFCII:EAW was the first release of SFC outside of Interplay, but it was built on the original SFC game code, which is partially owned by Interplay..

Same goes for OP which is built on EAW

and same goes for SFC III which is built on OP, however the new mess is Taldren did SFC III as a work for hire for Activision and the source code is owned by them for that game, and Taldren only has the rights to the intellectual property of it.

As such, for SFC original to be open sourced, first we have to have Taldren's OK.. Eric game me a personal OK to release whatever I had for SFC.. which I already have done.. but my stuff was nothing more than Scripts for the game..

but we have Eric's OK..

then we have to have Ken's OK..

we have that..

next we need Interplay's OK.. and as far I am to understand, Interplay was OK with it..

so three hurtles jumped..

Now the final Hurtle is QuickSilver ..

They have attempted to make an editor for the q3 file, but it failed.. and they refuse to opensource the program that built the q3 file....

so as for open sourcing the Original SFC.. I wouldn't bet on it.. we have been trying at D.Net for the last 3 or 4 years to get something and nothing has happened.. we even have a different section of this board where the topic is in open discussion with all the steps we have taken to beg, plead, bribe for the QuickSilver code to no avail... and reverse Engineering a Copy Written product is Illegal and comes with 20 Years Federal Time.. so that isn't going to happen, especially with how closely we here at D.Net look out for this game.

now for someone who wants to cross it over to Linux.. ROFLMAO... Your best bet is to put a Windows 98 or higher emulator on to Linux like WINE and run the MS version on it.. however Linux doesn't like Direct X based games and SFC all versions is built in MS Visual C++ 6.0 SP 5 and rendered originally under Direct X 7.0...

Linux sucks for gaming on most Direct X games.. that is why people stick with Windows... I prefer XP Pro 64 with Media Center Edition 2005 on it.. flawless and smooth and works great.. never had a crash and never been infected if you just learn to set up your internal security built into XP

and this is without a firewall or active Antivirus scanners since they act like viruses...

anyhow.. it is up to you.. I have seen some Linux boxes run SFC just fine.. but only after about 2 to 3 months of configuring their system to work Direct X stabily...

so in the end, I appologize to you for SFC and Open Source... Doubtful it will happen in our lifetime... and my sincerest appologies to you and your Linux box... Gaming just won't be the same on it...

It will be great for Open GL games, but any Direct X game .. well good luck, especially 85% of games are Direct X based, which is Microsoft and Windows.

[Scott_Bruno]

I wouldn't call it the "heart of the game engine" so much as the "black heart of the evil UI".

The source tool was a version of Macromedia Director that was so old (even at the time) that it freaked out when it encountered hard drives and memory that exceeded its concept of "big". The conversion process from Director file to game asset usable by the Quicksilver UI stuff (QUIL, although we liked to call it SWILL) was dubious, itself smacking of reverse engineering and dancing on the edge of legality.

As far as any individual person's OK goes, you might as well ask the guy who sells oranges by the 110 onramp. Although if Taldren does pop back into existence as a legal entity I'm sure the ex-employees it owes thousands of dollars to for enforced salary cuts and withheld bonuses would be delighted to hear it :-)

What it comes down to is that the ownership situation is a mess. I know there are people out there who have personal copies of the stuff and your best hope is that they accidentally upload it somewhere accessible.

** edit

Oh, and if anyone does do that, don't talk about it. Don't announce it. Just do it and email someone quietly. And then you folks keep quiet about it afterwards, because while it's definitely the right thing to do it's not exactly legal.

[KBF-Crim]

 

[Centurus]

Probably something that made him forget about the rude responses that a certain poster usually responds with.


Personally, I'd like to know if it's possible to reverse enginneer the end product then rebuild it on MacOS

You get an experienced programmer with all the best tools and programs around, and he or she can reverse engineer the game and reconfigure the code so it can only operate a toaster.

It is possible.  Question is, would anyone willingly do it for the community.

I believe it's illegal- read your EULA.

As for the Mac guy- doesn't Mac OS v.10 and above run windows apps ?? I seem to remember installing MSoffice on my sisters mac not too long ago and it ran fine. Maybe there's a win emulator for mac that you can make SFC run under.

...But getting source code ??? LOL, s'cuse me while I contain my laughter.

Everyone knows it's illegal.  That's stating the obvious.  Reverse engineering the source code however, is not impossible.  In fact it's very possible.  That's why I asked the question, would anyone be willing to do it.

[RazalYllib]

Sounding pretty romulan there sb...

[Nemesis]

Everyone knows it's illegal.  That's stating the obvious.

I don't know that. 

I do know that evey time I've heard about a EULA being fought in court the EULA lost.  Microsoft for example lost on the right to veto you from publishing reviews (in New York state at least).  They still put it in as an attempt to intimidate people.

Always check out what everybody knows as often they know falsehoods.

[Nemesis]

What's this guys been smoking?  Screw Linux and OS X.  How about open-sourcing it in its native environment first, lol?  Or if you like Linux so much, buy the #%%$^ game and get it working under wine.

Do you remember the time when gamers said that about the PC and DOS?  Games just weren't made for DOS as it was a business operating system.  Things change and right now ID Software (Doom and Quake) thinks that Linux is important enough to support and as one of the most successful independent gaming companies around (even though I don't like their games) I must assume that they know what makes a good gaming system.

You like Microsoft and don't like Linux or the Mac?  Thats fine but there is no need to insult people because they disagree with your "free" choice and take another path.

There are those of us who oppose Microsoft because of their treatment of customers as criminals who must prove their innocence over and over again with Microsoft both the supposed victim and the judge.  Add in those who oppose Microsoft for their illegal behaviours in countries around the world.  More and more of us are abandoning Microsoft for Linux for these reasons.  Get used to the idea that we are here to stay and are becoming an audience big enough that we must be courted.  Big enough that games will be written that are native not just running under Wine. 

I would love to see a cross platform clone of SFC2:OP.  That of course means abandoning the proprietary DirectX in favour of OGL.  If I were a programmer I suspect I'd be working on it myself.

[Lepton]

Yeah, quicksilver is too busy making money off of ten year old code and an copyright violations of SFB materials.  Have you seen the shiplist for Tactical Assault?  Nearly exactly the same fields as our shiplist.   Nearly some of the same exact specs for those ships as SFB.  Romulan ships have some of the exact same names as SFB.

[Lepton]

What's this guys been smoking?  Screw Linux and OS X.  How about open-sourcing it in its native environment first, lol?  Or if you like Linux so much, buy the #%%$^ game and get it working under wine.

Do you remember the time when gamers said that about the PC and DOS?  Games just weren't made for DOS as it was a business operating system.  Things change and right now ID Software (Doom and Quake) thinks that Linux is important enough to support and as one of the most successful independent gaming companies around (even though I don't like their games) I must assume that they know what makes a good gaming system.

You like Microsoft and don't like Linux or the Mac?  Thats fine but there is no need to insult people because they disagree with your "free" choice and take another path.

There are those of us who oppose Microsoft because of their treatment of customers as criminals who must prove their innocence over and over again with Microsoft both the supposed victim and the judge.  Add in those who oppose Microsoft for their illegal behaviours in countries around the world.  More and more of us are abandoning Microsoft for Linux for these reasons.  Get used to the idea that we are here to stay and are becoming an audience big enough that we must be courted.  Big enough that games will be written that are native not just running under Wine. 

I would love to see a cross platform clone of SFC2:OP.  That of course means abandoning the proprietary DirectX in favour of OGL.  If I were a programmer I suspect I'd be working on it myself.

The comment was directed at the idiocy of releasing sources for an open-source Mac and Linux game when it's native to windows and directx.

I have linux installed on my desktop and wish I had the courage to put it on my laptop.  I am by no means a Microsoft supporter so please don't paint me that way.

[KBF-Crim]

Yeah, quicksilver is too busy making money off of ten year old code and an copyright violations of SFB materials.  Have you seen the shiplist for Tactical Assault?  Nearly exactly the same fields as our shiplist.   Nearly some of the same exact specs for those ships as SFB.  Romulan ships have some of the exact same names as SFB.

Hmmm...I wonder if steve knows that....maybe a little bird should tell him

*tweet*

[Lepton]

Yeah, quicksilver is too busy making money off of ten year old code and an copyright violations of SFB materials.  Have you seen the shiplist for Tactical Assault?  Nearly exactly the same fields as our shiplist.   Nearly some of the same exact specs for those ships as SFB.  Romulan ships have some of the exact same names as SFB.

Hmmm...I wonder if steve knows that....maybe a little bird should tell him

*tweet*

I can send you the shiplist if that helps.

[Nemesis]

The comment was directed at the idiocy of releasing sources for an open-source Mac and Linux game when it's native to windows and directx.

I have linux installed on my desktop and wish I had the courage to put it on my laptop.  I am by no means a Microsoft supporter so please don't paint me that way.

Then I suggest that you review the way you post. 

Consider:  HudsonMan34 only asked for the source to be released so it could be ported to other systems, he didn't say anything about ignoring Windows.  You proceeded to insult him by saying "What's this guys been smoking?  Screw Linux and OS X." and then suggested getting it to run under Wine or Cedega which only helps those with x86 based systems not all Linux/Mac users.  Then you proceeded to refer to "the idiocy of releasing sources for an open-source Mac and Linux game".  Where is the idiocy in wanting the source available so those who want SFC2 on their systems can get it and use it now that it has been abandoned by its original owners?

Now did you react to HudsonMan34s suggestion in a polite way?  I don't think so.  You were rude and insulting.  You could have made your point (which I disagree with) politely without the insults.  I suggest that you do so in the future.

Wine and Cedega are not a viable long term solution.  What happens is Microsoft changes Windows and all new programs get locked into those changes and don't work on Wine/Cedega until they can be updated in months or years (if they ever do work with a given program).  Only with native versions (especially open source) can you be sure they will continue to work into the future.  What also is happening is Microsoft is progressively blocking running their software on anything else by technical changes that detect Wine/Cedega and disable the software and adding DRM that can't legally be bypassed which won't work on systems not "blessed" by Microsoft.  They have also  been adding things to the EULA that prohibit you from running the software how you like (see the virtuallization section of the Vista EULA).

The whole "make it run on Windows and don't worry about anything else attitude" only serves to aid Microsoft in blocking out competition in the OS market.  I like competition and I want competition.  So long as the competitors are weak Microsoft will continue to remove the control of your computer into their hands as they have been doing for years. 

[Nemesis]

now for someone who wants to cross it over to Linux.. ROFLMAO... Your best bet is to put a Windows 98 or higher emulator on to Linux like WINE and run the MS version on it.. however Linux doesn't like Direct X based games and SFC all versions is built in MS Visual C++ 6.0 SP 5 and rendered originally under Direct X 7.0...

Linux sucks for gaming on most Direct X games.. that is why people stick with Windows... I prefer XP Pro 64 with Media Center Edition 2005 on it.. flawless and smooth and works great.. never had a crash and never been infected if you just learn to set up your internal security built into XP

Since DirectX is a proprietary system wholly belonging to Microsoft is it any wonder that DirectX games "suck" on non Microsoft systems?  Is it any wonder that Microsoft fearing a slow uptake of Windows Vista is pushing DirectX10 for future games and not releasing a DirectX10 update to older systems thereby attempting to force the upgrade to Vista?  That also ignores the non standard features of Microsoft C++

ID Software has shown that games can be made portable between Operating Systems with the Doom and Quake series. They don't lock you down to DirectX and subjugation to Microsoft. 

Myself I prefer a system that does not call home to big brother and randomly decide that I'm a criminal and force me to call and beg to have the system I purchased legally allowed to work again without having to buy it all over again.  I prefer a system that does not have DRM being constantly integrated into it.  I prefer a system that does not come with software integrated into it purely to destroy competition.  You of course are "free" to continue using whatever software you wish.

Remember that the free in "free software" does not refer only (or primarily) to cost it also refers to FREEDOM.  Linux and other Open Source software give me Freedom that Microsoft tries to deny me. 

[KBF-Crim]

Gentlemen....please......let us not turn this into an arguement...

[KBF-Crim]

Yeah, quicksilver is too busy making money off of ten year old code and an copyright violations of SFB materials.  Have you seen the shiplist for Tactical Assault?  Nearly exactly the same fields as our shiplist.   Nearly some of the same exact specs for those ships as SFB.  Romulan ships have some of the exact same names as SFB.

Hmmm...I wonder if steve knows that....maybe a little bird should tell him

*tweet*

I can send you the shiplist if that helps.

Yes please....

[Nemesis]

Gentlemen....please......let us not turn this into an arguement...

Sorry Crim but that started with the insult in the 3rd post.  Lepton could have pointed out that because SFC2 uses DirectX porting to Linux/Mac is more of a rewrite than just a porting and is far more difficult and that in his opinion the effort isn't worthwhile.  He could have made his point politely and even constructively but couldn't be bothered.  Now if Lepton wants to rephrase things in a polite manner I could see removing the responses to the insults. 

Politeness counts.   Save being rude, insulting and nasty for those who don't understant anything else.  I'm sure everyone in this thread is capable of a polite discussion. 

Hudsonman has made precisely 1 post.  What is the chance he'll return after reading the insulting response?  Should we really be driving away new people?

[Lepton]

The comment was directed at the idiocy of releasing sources for an open-source Mac and Linux game when it's native to windows and directx.

I have linux installed on my desktop and wish I had the courage to put it on my laptop.  I am by no means a Microsoft supporter so please don't paint me that way.

Then I suggest that you review the way you post.   

I suggest you pull the stick out of your ass but that ain't happening either.

 Clear personal attack. Stop it.

[FRA.E.Kehakoul_XC]

Please Stop this arguing  instantly.. ,its fruitless and contraproductive.

Thx

[SkyFlyer]

The comment was directed at the idiocy of releasing sources for an open-source Mac and Linux game when it's native to windows and directx.

I have linux installed on my desktop and wish I had the courage to put it on my laptop.  I am by no means a Microsoft supporter so please don't paint me that way.

Then I suggest that you review the way you post.   

I suggest you pull the stick out of your ass but that ain't happening either.

 



I think those sum up what 99.9% of the board think of your posts.

[KBF-Crim]

Hey....sky....who died and made you a moderator...

A post like that isnt going to calm anything down....so....knock it off eh...

Thanks...

Kids these days....sheesh...

[chasisaac]

I am trying to get it to run on  WIn98 or 2000 under parallels.

No luck yet

[SkyFlyer]

Hey....sky....who died and made you a moderator...

A post like that isnt going to calm anything down....so....knock it off eh...

Thanks...

Kids these days....sheesh...

I killed Bonk.

You know.. the whole macbeth thing.

[Nemesis]

Please Stop this arguing  instantly.. ,its fruitless and contraproductive.

Thx

As you wish.

[FA Frey XC]

Look people, as one of the guys who's tried for years to get the client side source, I can tell you this isn't likely happening.

If someone did quietly upload it somewhere, and send me an email about it, what could I do with it?

Really?

Without announcing it? Without causing all the other websites that cover SFC to hone in like dogs in heat?

Seriously, the only real way to get the client side source and do something with it is to get it legally. How's that possible?

Most don't know, really.

Bottom line is this : we here at D.Net don't condone, or advocate the piracy of software. Currently, the licensing and legal stuff is still held up in court mumbo-jumbo, but until we can get a clear shot at the software, or announce it after getting the "upload" and no one challenges it for a period of time... then sure that would work.

But, keeping it civil in ANY discussion here isn't just a polite request, it's a rule. Devolve this discussion into a insult throwing bruhaha, and it'll get locked. Nice, wow, way to keep the open source movement going.

Regards,

[Skaren]

Frey I agree,..

I was going to get into a long discussion with Lepton about that but decided against it.  I was going to do that cause he is the one who started dissing Josh on the D2 form over his promo talk.

That caused a cascade effect and a further rift in the community, in my opinion a big rift.  I had hoped he might have thought about that and felt maybe his comments were not that good an ideal.  Then I see him over here dissing someone else.  For gods sake,... stop it !

Folks who don't have anything nice to say, ...should just shut the F up. 

For the record I thought the same thing as Lepton but had the wisdom not to go around throwing my words at people like a A hole.

Grow up !

 Calling someone a "A-hole" makes you part of the problem. Let the mods and admins do their job.