Topic: Gorn ship from Area (remastered)

[Alidar Jarok]

They actually designed a ship for the remastered version of Arena, but they put it at such an extreme distance that you couldn't really see it.

Here's what it looks like if anyone is interested.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

It looks exotic, yet uninspiring. I can't picture gorn flying anything that looks like that.

[Fedman NCC-3758]

The Gorn are not interested in inspiring anyone.

The just bash ones brains in and hiss.   


I hope we see more TOS ships remastered.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Doesn't strike me as a Gorn design in the least, It does strike me as something that might be flown by the Hydrans for some reason.

[Rat Boy]

Looks like the Romulan Dreadnaught from Tactical Assault.

[Chris Johnson]

Nothing like the blocky-yet-actually-alienish-looking stock ships in the Starfleet Command Series (and Klingon Academy), but at least it doesn't look like a bunch of dinner-plates (or proto-Starfleet saucers) stringed-up together along with two Flash Gordon-esque warp engines.

I think they should've kept it barely in visual range (as a little star or blink of light or something) and leave it to our imagination and keep Enterprise's capabilities a bit more extraordinary than the usual contemporary close-up fights (that still looks nice though).  But still, the ship doesn't look bad.

Edit: Upon further inspection, it looks like the D7 reversed and more curvy without the bridge module and some extra features slapped on its rear/stern (which, again, is the new bow) along with two more engines (which aren't Klingon-esque).

[EmeraldEdge]

Yeah, I can't say I'm wowed by it.  I think uninspired is actually a good way to describe it.The thing is that now that it's in an episode are we going to be forced into accepting this as a Gorn ship?  Is it canon now?  Will ships with this design start showing up in video games?

[Alidar Jarok]

No idea.  If what is seen on screen is canon, you can barely see anything.  It could have been a picture of a clown and we wouldn't have known the difference.

[Lepton]

Pretty odd ship.  What I liked about the original model is that it looked a bit crocodilian or reptilian; low, bulky, extended.  This ship has nothing reptilian in it.

[Villa64]

Regarding "canon"...

Has anyone on the film/ tv production end ever mentioned SFB or SFC?

Is there *any* acknowledgement of us from them?

Just wonderin'.  We always comment that *their* ships dont look SFB'ish enough.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Yes there is acknowlegement as I believe in DS-9 trials and tribulations, Koloths' ship is referred to as a "d-7".  That's an acknowledgement, however small it may be considered.

[Alidar Jarok]

That's not from SFB.  It was from some tech manual (Franz Joseph's tech manual, maybe?).  While SFB might borrow from that, its possible to reference the tech manual without referencing Starfleet Battles.  BTW, I wonder if they are legally allowed to reference SFB (since there was some shady way that they got a license to do Star Trek stuff in the first place).

[EmeraldEdge]

I didn't think that SFB got the license in a shady way did they?  I thought they got it at the time, because Paramount didn't realize what they had and thought Trek was done with, so they figured "Yeah, what the heck."   Then when Trek started up again, they had second thoughts. right?

[Alidar Jarok]

I remember a rant not awhile ago (by one of the people who worked for Taldren.  I feel bad for not remembering his name, Dave something, I think).  Basically, he said getting the license from a tech manual is equivalent from being able to make Star Wars games based on a license of a Jar Jar Binks children's book.  Paramount didn't oppose them, but its not like they had the right to do what they did.  At the very least, its likely that significantly went beyond what rights (if any) they had (did Franz Joseph's tech manual have the Kzinti, Gorn, or Tholians in it anyway?).  It definitely was not the proper way to do things.

[Villa64]

...(did Franz Joseph's tech manual have the Kzinti, Gorn, or Tholians in it anyway?).  It definitely was not the proper way to do things.

Gorn:  Yes
Tholian:  Yes
Kzinti:  No.  But to point out, the Kzinti made their debut on the cartoon, not TOS.  Not sure how much connection that the cartoon had with paramount, probably a bunch.  Ultimately, werent the Kzinti an entirely separate ripoff from Larry Niven?

[Alidar Jarok]

The Kzinti were in the TAS episode Time Trap, which was written by Larry Niven.  The cartoon was owned by Paramount and produced by Gene Rodenberry.

ADB bypassed licensing that they should have gotten.  I can't find Dave Ferrell's post on the subject (I'm almost postive it was his, although I can't be sure).  He explained it better than I could.

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163175235.0.html

Saying SFB is based upon Franz Joseph's Techinical Manual is like
making a game with X-Wings and Tie Fighters and saying you licensed
the rights from the Little Golden book "Jar Jar's Tongue Adventures".
The Technical Manual is based upon Star Trek (a license) and so is
SFB.  Franz Joseph did not create the Federation, Klingons, Romulans,
Gorn et all, they are part of Star Trek plain and simple.  If you insist
otherwise you are only fooling yourself, and maybe a small group
of cohorts, you would never convince a judge or jury of such.

Thanks,

Dave

I'm pretty sure there were additional posts on that topic, but the thread is messed up so it repeats itself.

[Villa64]

Were the Kzinti created prior to the cartoon?  that was my understanding.

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah.  Larry Niven's Known Space novels were written before the animated series.  Then either Niven approached Roddenberry or Roddenberry approached Niven and they decided that they could fit them into Star Trek.  One novel, the Soft Weapon, was turned into the animated series episode the Slavery Weapon.

Still, even if ADB had the right to use Star Trek stuff based on a tech manual, they shouldn't be able to use anything in Star Trek canon that wasn't in that tech manual and could only rely on their original stuff (The Hydrans, the Lyrans, the Intersteller Concordium, etc).

[Villa64]

But, except for the kzinti, all those races were in the tech manual...

My recollection is of a map, that showed how the federation was layed out, and who the neighbors were....tholians, gorn, klingons, romulans.  Also the basic specs for some of the fed ships, and the d7 blueprints (mentioned in the designers notes, and I assume also had permission from).

Just a map, weak I know, but the races were there.

But someone must still be in a tizzy, because the website that used to show full size reprints of all those blueprints, has now reduced them all to thumbnails... with a legal disclaimer.

[Julin Eurthyr]

One thing on the whole issue:

Somehow, Franz Joseph (the writer of the Tech Manual) was able to copyright the Tech Manual and his blueprints, as an independant work not tied in any way, shape, or form, to Paramount / Roddenberry / The Trek Franchise.  It may have been because Roddenberry did ask / allow Franz the ability to draw upon the ST source material, but no mention of that is in the legal copyright paperwork.  As such, there are two legal, independantly copyrighted versions of the TOS "Enterprise" hull design, Paramount's "Enterprise" from the show, and Franz Joseph's "Constitution" from the TM / Blueprints.  D7 and Warbird are also so doubly-copyrighted, both in TV and Blueprint forms.

Hence SVC's (ADB's) ability to have made SFB in the first place.  They are licensed to use a source copyrighted as an independent work.

This doesn't happen anymore.  When a "Jar Jar's Children's book" is written, the license / copyright usually spells out that plot, independant characters, etc. are the writers, but everything else is Lucas's (using the SW allegory).  Even then, Lucas retains all right to use / adapt / steal / reference the writer's work without future compensation to the writer.  Anyone tries to do a massive fan-undertaking like Franz did to make the Tech Manual, and they'll get slapped down on / forced to license with the creator of the source materials faster than a Klingon draws his sword / Bat'leh...

The problems arose when Paramount attempted to cash in / stop all activities from Franz Joseph (continued tech manual and blueprint reprints) and it's "derivative", SFB.  Since the Tech Manual / blueprints (and every word contained within it, including Tholan, Tholia, Phaser, Disruptor, Plasma Torpedo, Gorn etc.) are dually copyrighted (both Paramount's and Franz Joseph's copyright), SVC was legal and allowed to use them based on their license with Franz Joseph.  However, none of those works / terms would reasonably exist without Paramount / Trek's existance.  And it's impossible to revoke the copyright since it was "legally granted", as Paramount didn't complain when Franz Joseph went to copyright his works (Trek was, after all, dead to them at the time.)  The compromise is that any futher use of those independantly copyrighted works must be approved by Paramount, and SVC negotiated another license with Paramount allowing him (and ADB) further, fairly unrestricted, use of the terms / concepts contained / derived from Joseph's work, but nothing else from Trek (hence no movie ships, TNG, Enterprise era, etc. etc.)

Meanwhile, SVC did aquire the rights to the Kzinti name / history, based on their inclusion in that one animated series episode and SVC's desire to include all races that shown up in Trek.  He actually scored those rights from Niven.  However, Interplay / 14 deg. East / Taldren coudn't get the name for SFC, so while the ships / "SSDs" - loadouts / etc. that are SVC's creations can be used, the Kzinti Name / History can't be used in SFC.  Hence their renaming / reimaging as the dog-like Mirak...