Topic: More Planets Found  (Read 4060 times)

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el-Karnak

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More Planets Found
« on: October 09, 2006, 11:05:36 pm »
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=32BBBAF7-569F-4852-B7F5-5622718C0743&f=00&fg=copy

Hubble Telescope has found new evidence of planets. Basically, NASA is saying there are a lot of planets everywhere including some found 26,000 light-years away and that "with high confidence there are literally billions of planets in our galaxy".


Offline Dizzy

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2006, 11:17:39 pm »
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=32BBBAF7-569F-4852-B7F5-5622718C0743&f=00&fg=copy

Hubble Telescope has found new evidence of planets. Basically, NASA is saying there are a lot of planets everywhere including some found 26,000 light-years away and that "with high confidence there are literally billions of planets in our galaxy".




But only 1 has intelligent life...

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2006, 11:57:05 pm »
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=32BBBAF7-569F-4852-B7F5-5622718C0743&f=00&fg=copy

Hubble Telescope has found new evidence of planets. Basically, NASA is saying there are a lot of planets everywhere including some found 26,000 light-years away and that "with high confidence there are literally billions of planets in our galaxy".




But only 1 has intelligent life...


Which one of those new planets is it? ;)

Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2006, 11:59:32 pm »
Crim beat me to it lol
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2006, 12:29:03 am »
This is the only planet in the universe with life on it. No other planet has life. Period. This is it, we are it.

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2006, 01:27:32 am »
This is the only planet in the universe with life on it. No other planet has life. Period. This is it, we are it.

Ok you made your statement, now PROVE IT!   ;D

Offline Hexx

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 01:43:26 am »
Remember the words of the prophet..

"The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us."
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 01:55:12 am »
Remember the words of the prophet..

"The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us."

Damn you Hexx!  You just made me feel stupid after realizing how many times I've sent Dizzy a PM!   :P

Offline Dizzy

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2006, 04:26:36 am »
Remember the words of the prophet..

"The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us."

Damn you Hexx!  You just made me feel stupid after realizing how many times I've sent Dizzy a PM!   :P

Now Chuut is wondering why I have never replied...

Offline Dracho

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2006, 12:39:46 pm »
Strictly from an odds perspective, the odds against you winning the Powerball are far less than the odds in favor of other life in the universe.  The question is far more likely:  "Can they come here, or can we go there", than it is "Are we alone".

There are hundreds of billions of solar systems with the potential for life as we know it (not counting the potential for life as we don't know it), and thus far, life exists in every solar system we have explored.   ;)
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el-Karnak

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2006, 02:15:12 pm »
The Drake equation states that:

N = R* X fp X fe X fl X fi X fc X L
 
where:

N is the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to communicate at any given time
and

R* is the rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp is the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne is average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fl is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life
fi is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc is the fraction of the above that are willing and able to communicate
L is the expected lifetime of such a civilization

This section attempts to list best current estimates for the parameters of the Drake equation.

R* = the rate of star creation in our galaxy
Estimated by Drake as 10/year. Latest calculations from NASA and the European Space Agency indicates that the current rate of star formation in our galaxy is about 6 per year. The Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Germany notes, however, that our galaxy is not the biggest producer of stars and supernovae in the universe. [1]

fp = the fraction of those stars which have planets
Estimated by Drake as 0.5.

ne = the average number of planets (or rather satellites; moons may perhaps sometimes be just as good candidates) which can potentially support life per star that has planets
Estimated by Drake as 2.

fl = the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop life
Estimated by Drake as 1.
In 2002, Charles H. Lineweaver and Tamara M. Davis (at the University of New South Wales and the Australian Centre for Astrobiology) estimated fl as > 0.13 on planets that have existed for at least one billion years using a statistical argument based on the length of time life took to evolve on Earth. Lineweaver has also determined that about 10% of star systems in the Galaxy are hospitable to life, by having heavy elements, being far from supernovae and being stable themselves for sufficient time. [2]

fi = the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop intelligent life
Estimated by Drake as 0.01.
Some estimate that solar systems in galactic orbits with radiation exposure as low as Earth's solar system may be more than 100,000 times rarer, however, giving a value of fi = 1×10-7.

fc = the fraction of the above which are willing and able to communicate
Estimated by Drake as 0.01.

L = the expected lifetime of such a civilization
Estimated by Drake as 10,000 years.
The value of L can be estimated from the lifetime of our current civilization from the advent of radio astronomy in 1938 (dated from Grote Reber's parabolic dish radio telescope) to the current date. In 2006, this gives an L of 68 years.
In an article in Scientific American, Michael Shermer estimated L as 420 years, based on compiling the durations of sixty historical civilizations. Using twenty-eight civilizations more recent than the Roman Empire he calculates a figure of 304 years for "modern" civilizations. Note, however, that the fall of most of these civilizations did not destroy their technology, and they were succeeded by later civilizations which carried on those technologies, so Shermer's estimates should be regarded as pessimistic.

The equation based on current lower estimates, therefore, is thus:

R* = 6/year, fp = 0.5, ne = 2, fl = 0.33, fi = 1×10-7, fc = 0.01, and L = 420 years
N = 6 × 0.5 × 2 × 0.33 × 1×10-7 × 0.01 × 420 = 8.316×10-7 = 0.0000008
It is worth noting that the order of magnitude in the revised equation is determined primarily by the new estimate for fi. Going back to the number estimated by Drake (1×10-2) the result also changes to 0.08.


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 03:12:13 pm by el-Karnak »

Offline Dracho

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2006, 02:37:31 pm »
And when it becomes a Universal discussion, the final answer in Drake's formula must be multiplied by the number of galaxies in the universe.

Even though it's just a little bit of a large number.  The final numbers are still huge.
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Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2006, 07:20:17 pm »
Was wondering when someone would mention Drake  :)

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Offline Dizzy

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2006, 07:45:46 pm »
Drake equation is flawed.

<snip from by Glenn T. McDavid>
    "As Tipler, and Barrow have pointed out, the advocates of SETI are primarily astronomers and physicists. Many biologists, including Ernst Mayr (both on-line and in print) and G.G. Simpson have been very skeptical of the arguments for extraterrestial civilizations, and are similarly inclined toward the view that N = 1. Leonard Ornstein presented this view in Physics Today during the controversy that followed Frank Tipler's 1981 paper as well as in other papers.

    Rood and Trefil also presented a completely independent argument for a small value of N. This is an extended reductio ad absurdum that begins with the work on space colonization by Gerard K. O'Neill and others.

    Like O'Neill, they argued that space colonies offer an alternative to the Malthusian catastrophe that an expanding population on a single planet must inevitably face. Access to the moon and asteroids would vastly increase the mineral resources of the race. Solar energy is far easier to obtain and exploit in space, and so could be the primary form of energy for a civilization of space colonies. O'Neill has show that space colonies are feasible at the present level of human technology. Therefore, if there are many advanced technological civilizations in the galaxy, then a large percentage of them should have colonized space to get around the limitations of a single planet.

    Given a well developed system of space colonies, a civilization could easily proceed to interstellar travel. A starship can be considered as a space colony provided with a supply of raw materials, an energy source for when it is far from any star, and a propulsion system. It may not be a very fast starship, but it would still be able to make the voyage.

    Therefore a civilization with space colonies has the means for interstellar travel. If there are really many such civilizations, at least some of them eventually will travel over interstellar distances. Some may do so to find new resources, or to avoid overcrowding or persecution in the home system. Others may be interested in pure exploration. Whatever the motives, if there are many technological civilizations in the galaxy, it seems reasonable to expect that some of them will be interstellar travellers.

    Because of the energy requirements, as well as the relativistic speed limit of c, an interstellar journey will take many decades, perhaps centuries. Allowing FTL travel would only make the argument stronger, in that it would reduce the time needed to colonize the galaxy. However, even subluminal interstellar transit times could be very short compared to the lifetime of the galaxy. Suppose there is just one civilization that is seriously interested in interstellar colonization. One it has established itself in several solar systems no single catastrophe, such as nuclear war, ecological disaster, or asteroid impact could destroy it. From that time on this civilization, or civilizations descended from it would continue to expand throughout the galaxy. In about 30,000,000 years, quite a short time in astronomical terms, it could colonize the entire galaxy. Finney and Jones have suggested such a possibility for the future of the human race.

    If there are many technological civilizations in the galaxy, it is unreasonable to suppose that none of them have taken the path outlined above. Such an expansion would eventually include our own solar system. If so, we should be able to see the travellers, or some trace of their works. We have seen no indication of their existence. The conclusion is that in fact there are very few technological civilizations in the galaxy.
Quite possibly we are in fact alone."
[/list]

In 15 billion years and it only takes 30 mil to conquer the galaxy... I'd say the dinosaurs had a better shot at it. How long were they around for compared to ourselves? A few had opposing digits too.  There isn't anyone else out there. But possibly, according to you wankers, right now, on a distant planet, someone is typing the same thing...

Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2006, 08:23:12 am »
In 15 billion years and it only takes 30 mil to conquer the galaxy... I'd say the dinosaurs had a better shot at it. How long were they around for compared to ourselves? A few had opposing digits too.  There isn't anyone else out there. But possibly, according to you wankers, right now, on a distant planet, someone is typing the same thing...

And it took us most of these 15 billion years just to get to the point of early spaceflight, nevermind starting that 30 million year quest to conquer the galaxy.

And that estimate, I believe, supposes unopposed exploration.  How about the classic SFB / ST issue where the Federation is surrounded on all sides by hostile races, or BSG where the spaceflight race accidentally screwed themselves?  Get a few of them together, along with lethargy (there's bound to be points where the expansionists decide they've got enough "for now"), and that 30 million years finds itself taking 100+ million...

<snip from by Glenn T. McDavid>
If there are many technological civilizations in the galaxy, it is unreasonable to suppose that none of them have taken the path outlined above. Such an expansion would eventually include our own solar system. If so, we should be able to see the travellers, or some trace of their works. We have seen no indication of their existence. The conclusion is that in fact there are very few technological civilizations in the galaxy. Quite possibly we are in fact alone."

This argument is also flawed.  Looking at light reflected off an object 500,000 light years away shows us that area 500,000 years ago.  That same race, looking at us, at this moment in time, would see us in caveman days...  Operating under the belief that they are not a million + years ahead of us on the technological ladder, and that hubble cannot identify some of the "larger" craft of "modern" space fiction (SDF-1 of Robotech is 1 terrestrial mile, Galactica is, what, 1-10 km, and those are a couple of "larger" ships), the race in question needs to be fielding Death Stars (small moons) half a million years ago to have even a remote chance of being spotted on Hubble, they need even larger, clearly technological, works to stand a chance of being seen by our current technology.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 08:34:44 am by Julin Eurthyr »

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Offline Dizzy

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2006, 08:32:02 am »
oR BETTER YET WE DON'T GET TO JOIN THE UNIVERSE SCENE TILL WE, oops caps, join the 'warp club'.

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2006, 09:35:26 am »
The guy who mentioned that there are a hundred billion stars most of which that will have planetary systems for life to be on,...

That is just in our own Milky Way galaxy,...

That hundreds of billions needs to be multiplied by the hundreds of billions of Galaxies that there are.

That is in our Universe

Then there is the question of, is our universe the only universe there is,... 

It is my guess that if alien life contacted Earth it would dramatically disrupt our way of life.  Can you imagine what the religious fundamentalists would do,...  Oh my god !

Any intelligent life would probably not contact us for fear that it could bring our civilization into some serious trouble.

I think the Prime Directive is pretty much on the mark.  Even now we worry about introducing Microbes to alien planets for fear of disrupting the natural environment there.  If in a couple hundred years we explore a star that has intelligent but primitive life on it.  I bet we will not introduce ourselves for fear of what that may do to that civilization, we will watch and learn what we need to from afar. 

What advantage is there for contact?  For the most part I suspect only possible trouble.

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el-Karnak

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2006, 02:00:24 pm »
I took an astronomy class in my freshman year at college while George Bush Sr. was in power and  Dan Quayle was Vice-President. As VP, he was also reponsible in some way for NASA matters. So, of course, our astronomy prof could not resist taking a few jabs at the VP that could not spell potato correctly and was involved in space matters. He mentioned some NASA project  regarding sending out greetings from Earth to ET aliens in the form of radio transmissions.

Prof goes: is that really a good idea trying to bring attention upon ourselves when we can hardly even get to the moon without the trip breaking the budgets of half the countries on the planet?

This Prof was also always going to Maui to do observation work. Both at the top of the mountain and at the beach?  ;D

Moving forward to present day:  I am thinking if some ET alien civilization has the ability to come visit us and they actually make an appearance then I think about the only thing POTUS and UN could say is: "On behalf of the people of Earth blah, blah, blah . . . . .we surrender."

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2006, 02:21:23 pm »
Well life on other solar systems is obviously going to be much more spread out then Star Trek has it, but the possibility exists
If life exists here.. what is to prevent it from developing elsewhere?
For all we know they are further behind in technological development or they could be just not exploring in ourarea.. for all we know a technological life form exists 1000 light years away.. in which case it still will take thousands of years to even make contact with them.. We really shouldnt assume that they dont exist since they havent contacted us.. for space is BIG lol... Who knows they might have a law stating to remain out of contact with pre-warp / pre- deep space civilizations..
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Offline Toast

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Re: More Planets Found
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2006, 11:19:53 pm »
"We Surrender" ........... Rofl dont forget the "We will work well under your new administration" LOL