Topic: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?  (Read 1921 times)

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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« on: October 02, 2006, 11:13:44 am »


As I ponder thoughts for new server projects, my success with in-game map editing during Econ War convinces me I could try to do something interesting with how the Cartel and Empire maps interact with each other.  If, that is, I alter my editing source code to alter things automatically based upon a hard-wired set of rules.  It would only take seconds during a nightly database clean.

(I did this for the neutral hex econ in Econ Wars, and it indeed took only seconds.  Installing and removing player-designated trade routes and Tortugas manually was what pushed my edit time up to an hour or so each night.  To do that sort of thing again, I'll either alter the edit code to mak the job easier, or I'll hire some cheap help  ;D )


But the question remains, what short of interaction SHOULD the pirate and Empire maps have?

The default Taldren behaviour was for Imperial space to have no effects upon Cartel space, but to make it impossible for Empires to boost their own DV unless an allied cartel held the same hex.  To most (including me) this was unacceptable.

The current patched behaviour is for Cartel and Empire maps to have no effect upone on each other at all, except for mission offerings.  This is better, but boring.  It means that an area of space overrun with pirates has very little effect upon the host empire, though you'd think they'd feel a bite from this.

One idea I had was for Imperial space Econ to have a base value assigned, (rather than DV) but this value would be reduced by one for every DV that the cartel has.  Cartel econ, on their map, would start at zero econ and zero DV, and their econ would increase by 1 for every DV they gain.

To protect their econ, I'd have to allow each empire to have an allied pirate race they could log into.  Or I could replace a cartel's ship list with police and small military ships from the empire.  This would represent the empire pulling units from line duty to protect infrastructure.  You missions would not affect the DV of the empire hex since your missions would not be considered to be against military resources of the Imperial enemy.

I'd have to do such a server with a limited number of races.  otherwise al the empires would eat up all the cartel slots for police duty, and there'd be no cartel slots left for piracy.

There are some technical issues, of course.  Since the shipyard engine builds ships for empires and cartels based upon the same hex econ number, I'd likely reduce the econ for the empires as the Cartels gain a foothold on their layer, and add econ to some reserved, off-limits hexs to let the Cartels gain econ for their actions.

But these are technical issues which I am confident I can solve with my editing code.  The question I want feedback on is concept.

What SHOULD the intereaction be between empire and cartel on the map?  Is this idea a good one?  Do you have other ideas?  Don't worry about what will or won't "work".  If it can be made to work, I'll do some coding to make it work if I like the idea.  Instead, worry about what you'd like.

-S'Cipio
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."  - James Madison (chief author of the Constitution)

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Offline NuclearWessels

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2006, 12:19:44 pm »

Neat idea - I like it!

Another thought w.r.t. shipping lanes was to make them highly valuable (either econ or VPs), but if the cartel DV gets above a certain level then a hex loses its shipping lane status (who's going to take their valuable cargo into that neck of the woods?!?)

dave

Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2006, 08:29:26 am »

Hmmmm.... not many bites on this one. 

Dave's idea is good, and is fairly simple to implement. 

In my usual fashion, I could give the base map fairly low econ, but add "permanent" high econ lanes between all the major planets.  Then I could alter the DB editor to autmatically check these fixed lanes each night during the DB clean.  If piracy in these hexes had reached a certain level, then they would be considered cut and would vanish.  (They'd reappear if the police drive the piracy level back down.)

-S'Cipio
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."  - James Madison (chief author of the Constitution)

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Offline Alphageek

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2006, 06:23:29 pm »
I don't know much about the programming side of things, but I'd like to see map interaction that allowed pure cops-n-robbers.  Pirates attacking, say, Federatiaon hexes and slowly gaining control. 

Offline Dfly

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2006, 07:35:31 pm »
Most likely not going to happen, but I would love to see a Pirates vs Normals, where the BPV of ships is taken into account.  By this I mean keep the BPV shiplist as very low.  Pirates have a fair amount of options in low end BPV but when it gets to heavy cruisers and bigger the Normals have it big time.  I suggest using heavy metal rules a lot, helping to keep it even.

As per Pirates vs Norms, maybe allow 2 or 3 pirate races vs 2 or 3 norm races(could be more or less if needed).  Just my opinion on a possible fun serious server.

Offline Alphageek

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 10:54:07 am »
Would there ever be the possibility of a live non-Pirate race fllying against a live Pirate?

Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2006, 10:30:36 am »

It is possible for a live pirate and a life navy captain to fight each other.  The pure cops and robbers concept, however, with empire ships and pirate ships contending over the same hexs, has a few complications.

First, They aren't (normally) on the same map layer.  Thus a pirate attacking a "Federation" hex doesn't lower the Fed DV.  He lowers the DV of whatever pirate cartel owns that same hex, or raises his own if he already owns it.  This makes it impossible for me to "fake" it by comparing DV's and using the editor to lower one side's DV as another side gains DV, since I could open the database and find that both Imperial and Cartel DVs are at max, and I can't tell who has really been there the most.

Second, the engine-doubling throws in another twist.  I could replace half the Imperial race slots with half the Cartel slots and let them fight it out on the same layer, or vice versa.  However, Cartels need to be able to double their engines, and imperial ships should not be allowed to do so.  I can turn engine doubling on or off for the cartel layer, but so far as I know I can't do this for individual races.

Of course, all any challenge really needs is hard effort to work around it.

My slightly more complicated "solution" was to split the imperial ships into military and civilian (ie. police and other smaller) ships, and put the police ships onto the cartel layer.  Hopefully it would not be too unbalancing to allow police ships to double their engines along with the pirates.

Pirate ships and frontline navy ships would be able to draft and fight each other.  However, since the navy is trying to fight a war and control space, and the pirates are just trying to control graft and not be noticed,  their combats would not affect each other's DV.  What I owuld do is use the increased pirate DV to decrease the Empire Economy.  (since the pirates are stealing all the money.)  To combat this, the police would be able to crack down on the pirates and lower the pirate DV since they'd be on the same layer.  This would re-raise the imperial economy.

The upside AND downside to this "solution" is that all players would have access to three accounts if they were willing/wanting to put in that much effort:  A navy account to fight the war, a pirate account to sabotage the enemy, and a police account to protect their own holdings.

-S'Cipio
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."  - James Madison (chief author of the Constitution)

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Offline Shtarker "The Rat"

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2006, 11:50:29 am »
It's amazing how much more beautiful space is when you're chained to a desk, staring out the viewport at the stars you used to terrorize.  It's hard to believe the views that pull at me now are the same ones I cursed time and again when we prowled the space lanes - seeking freighters to plunder and police to rail against.

The squeal of a mistuned speaker jolted me out of my reverie - back to the reality of a universe that seemed to be of the empires, by  the empires, and for the empires.  A pirate can't even get decent techs anymore...

Gods how I miss the glory days of the cartels!  Gods - pah!  Sometimes the universe seems as if it is nothing more than the crazed creation of a scotch-soaked lizard!

Never-the-less, I still dream that one day the cartels will rise again - to be the scourge of the space lanes once more!

<S'ip get yer herr butt in gear! ;D >


Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2006, 12:06:04 pm »
<S'ip get yer herr butt in gear! ;D >

I definitely want to run a second Eco War piracy campaign (with the help of the friends who so kindly offered to relieve some of the day to day editing that type of server requires).  One with more plots and fewer downloads required.  However, with the wife hitting month 7 of her pregnancy, I fear it may be a few months before I dare try to put that much time into a game again.

Your recent return to productivity gives me hope that my day will come within the forseeable future.  ;)

-S'Cipio
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."  - James Madison (chief author of the Constitution)

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Offline NuclearWessels

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2006, 12:09:51 pm »
<S'ip get yer herr butt in gear! ;D >

I definitely want to run a second Eco War piracy campaign (with the help of the friends who so kindly offered to relieve some of the day to day editing that type of server requires).  One with more plots and fewer downloads required.  However, with the wife hitting month 7 of her pregnancy, I fear it may be a few months before I dare try to put that much time into a game again.

Your recent return to productivity gives me hope that my day will come within the forseeable future.  ;)

-S'Cipio

LOL - Congrats!   Is this your first?  It's a great time - enjoy  every single minute of it!  (I can't believe how fast they change!)

Productivity is just more of an art now - you find yourself using every little 15 minute lull in your schedule to accomplish something ;D

Oh yeah, you also learn just how far you can trade off sleep for productivity!

dave


« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 12:40:11 pm by NuclearWessels »

Offline Dfly

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Re: What should the Empire/Cartel map interaction be?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2006, 05:20:34 pm »
Congrats, and if you think you dont have time BEFORE the baby arrives, wait till after.  You wont have time for the first several years.