Topic: Follow up ? on Hull Damage

[Skaren]

Someone earlier stated that hull damage is actually representing weapons damage not hull integrity.

I have seen battle damage results in our games of 99.8% health.

So how is it if they are using the old SFB damage allocation table that you can have a weapon partially damaged.

For example if a ship has 10 weapon systems,..  I heard earlier that items have two hits each, first stuns second hit kills it.

So 10 weapons x 2 hits each, the 20 hits, you would think that a ship could then only have increments of 5% damage levels??

Like I say I have seen repeatedly small ships having just a fraction of a % of damage on them.

That seems inconsistent and wondered where the info on hull integrity/weapon hits came from.  I am not saying it is wrong, I was just hoping to be directed to where that info is actually posted to study it more and see it first hand.

S

[Skaren]

Also that would imply the following.

In the old SFB I often saw ships stripped of weapons still limping around, usually due to successfull Miza attacks.  So if the health bar represents weapon damage, then shouldn't we occasionally see a ship with zero health bars still flying?

I have never seen that but maybe missed it, has anyone else seen a ship still alive with no hull/weapon integrity bars left ?

Bueller

Bueller

Anyone ??

[Riskyllama]

Bueller

Bueller

Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with a girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.

In the old SFB I often saw ships stripped of weapons still limping around, usually due to successfull Miza attacks.  So if the health bar represents weapon damage, then shouldn't we occasionally see a ship with zero health bars still flying?

I dont recall seeing one, but since most ships usually are killed with weapons and systems still left, I guess its possible. Some of the ship systems boxes like sensors always seem almost impossible to kill entirely.

[762_XC]

Because not all weapons are weighed equallly. A WE which loses a Ph-1 is going to look a lot more healthy than a WE which loses its R-torp.

[Skaren]

Maybe there is some program code that will also not allow the last health bar to dissappear until ship explodes.

No ideal where that info came from ?

How sure are you that is true ?  100%  ?

[Strafer]

Not every system need be destroyed for a ship to blow. If the DAC has run out of Excess Damage boxes, game over. That's where a sufficiently large initial hit (eg:heavy/phaser/suicide shuttle/probe/kitchen sink) can blow an intact ship up with weapons still standing/blinking.

[Skaren]

Yes I agree but it should also work the other way if it is correct that the hull integrity bars actually represent weapons integrity. 

We should occasionally see a ship with no weapons, no hull integrity and still in the game.

I have flown ships that have no weapons left but I swear it still had hull bars left.

I am challenging the statement that the hull integrity line is weapons integrity.  After this post I will download the booklet and see what the bar is described as in the game manual.

[Skaren]

"Target Hull Integrity

This bar displays the hull integrity of your current target.  Like the bar for your ship, it is a rough gauge of how much damage the target can take before being destroyed."

Well that statement from the rules is a bit vague.  Something tells me that if it was weapons integrity they would have stated so.

My last thought is I have seen ships with damage to hull integrity and no lose or stunning of weapons. 

Like I say I would love to know where that info came from so as to better be able to judge the veracity of it.

[Dfly]

Perhaps hull integrety also included, but not limited to, transporters, tractors, shuttle bays, fighter bays, and weapons.  If a ship has 10 weapons, and each can be hit twice, making 20 as you say, then you add in those other factors just mentioned, of which one of them was hit once, but now there are 34 total targets(X trans, X trac, etc), the number could easily be 99.8%

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Perhaps hull integrety also included, but not limited to, transporters, tractors, shuttle bays, fighter bays, and weapons.  If a ship has 10 weapons, and each can be hit twice, making 20 as you say, then you add in those other factors just mentioned, of which one of them was hit once, but now there are 34 total targets(X trans, X trac, etc), the number could easily be 99.8%

That has always been my guess, with weapons weighted more than other systems.  Also I would bet that excess damage would also be in the equation explaining to a large degree why ships had never been seen still on the map with a zero health bar even though all systems seemed to have been destroyed.

[Skaren]

Seems like the equation is leaning more to just a fraction of the ships remaining systems.

Well thanks for all the feed back. 

I was just wondering if someone had read that in a patch read me or something.  I sorta disagreed with it just being weapons integrity the more I thought about it and was curious if I could see the actual source for the statement.

For the most part I have learned to listen to the Pros on this site as the advice/knowledge has been pretty solid.

[Julin Eurthyr]

From ancient memory:

The Health / Hull bar is based on BPV.  Every box on the ship is theoretically factored into this equation.

To make this work, each box was assigned an arbritrary BPV value.  Probably working off of the Orion Pirate option mount costs.

However, as SVC is so fond of pointing out, there is no way to make each box / system the same BPV value.  For example, the Photons on an F-DD are, individually, more BPV per launcher than the photons on the F-CA, because having 4 Photons on a DD-hull is much more powerful / devastating to an opponent DD than the 4 CA's photons hitting an opponent CA.  Same with the R-torp on the R-WE and the R-CON (examples)...

Logic tells me that the value picked for each weapon is less than the "actual" cost of the weapon in most/all cases.  So that, even if the ship is down to 0 boxes (impossible since every ship keeps at least 4 power when the last excess box is dealt with), and all the BPV deductions are made from the "original" value, there's still gonna be unaccounted BPV points left and displayed in the meter.

[Mace]

I'm betting that this is a whole lot simpler than this.
I'd say it's just all based on how many hit's it would take to destry the ship.  Look at an SSD and count up the boxes.
To the DAC a Plasma-R is no better than a tractor beam.  Maybe the Hull integrity is just based on this arbitrary number and doesn't have anything to do with BPV.  For some reason I doubt Taldren spent that much time coming up with such a complex method to model one simple line on the display. 

As for ships running around with apparently no damage but a low hull integrity line, not everything on the ship is represented on the display or maybe repairs were not factored into the hull integrity display and it doesn't increase when repairs are made.

Just some random thoughts.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Mace, I think the BPV of every item on board is part of the list.

So an R torp, being worth more BPV than a tractor beam would cut more into the 'status' bar would lower it more than if a tractor beam was taken out.

[Julin Eurthyr]

I'm betting that this is a whole lot simpler than this.
I'd say it's just all based on how many hit's it would take to destry the ship.  Look at an SSD and count up the boxes.
To the DAC a Plasma-R is no better than a tractor beam.  Maybe the Hull integrity is just based on this arbitrary number and doesn't have anything to do with BPV.  For some reason I doubt Taldren spent that much time coming up with such a complex method to model one simple line on the display. 

As for ships running around with apparently no damage but a low hull integrity line, not everything on the ship is represented on the display or maybe repairs were not factored into the hull integrity display and it doesn't increase when repairs are made.

Just some random thoughts.

How Taldren worked it:

Hull bar = ship BPV
R-Torp = X bpv
Ph-1 = X bpv
Hull box = X bpv
etc.  All X's taken from arbritrary (Orion option mount) BPV per box list

So, when a box is marked destroyed (say, R torp on a WE) it's Ship BPV - R torp BPV, display percentage remaining (damaged value / full strength).

With the fact that every ship keeps 4 power no matter what may happen, and that BPVs aren't an exact science (the value of the R-torp on the WE is higher than the value of the R-torp in an option mount), even when all boxes are "theoretically" destroyed, there's still some "ship" BPV left over, which is why the bar will never be 100% empty.

[Mace]

So what you're saying is that if the R-torp on a Warbird+ is destroyed then the Hull Integrity line will go down much more than if the R was destroyed on a KB10R..........that makes sense.

[Julin Eurthyr]

So what you're saying is that if the R-torp on a Warbird+ is destroyed then the Hull Integrity line will go down much more than if the R was destroyed on a KB10R..........that makes sense.

Exactly.

IIRC, the R-torp on a WB+ is like 50% of the health bar (close to 1/2 bar returns after repair completed), while I've never did a successful H&R to see how much % it goes down when only 1 R on the KB10R is down.

[Skaren]

Next time our group rallies we will do some experimenting,.. like lowering shields and allowing hit runs to experiment with, including destroying every weapon, then every system and see what health remains.

I will report back with the results.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Now here's the harder concept to understand...

Each box is not worth the same.

Consider the F-DD vs, say, the I-DD.

Both have Ph-1's.  The I-DD has 4 phasers making a "proper" Ph-1 loadout for a DD, ie, 1/2 the I-CAs load.  The F-DD, meanwhile, has 6 Ph-1's, which is 2/3rds the CA's load.

Then there's weapon arcs to account for.  Granted, all phasers on both ships are 180 degree arcs.  Feds are arrainged 2X FH / LS / RS while the ISC has 2x LF / RF.  However, their coverage is much different.

The ISC can only bear it's 4 phasers at a target in the FA arc.  The Fed can bear 4 phasers at any target throughout it's entire FH arc, along with 4 phasers down the rear centerline.  And, to top it off, depending on the weapons marked as destroyed, it's possible for the Fed to still have at least 90 degrees of 4 phaser coverage (from Front Centerline to undamaged side's side centerline, for example, mark both LS phasers as down the Fed gets 4 phsers from Front Centerline to Right Centerline), while losing even 1 phaser on the ISC ship results in the inability to provide 4 phaser coverage.  Also, the ISC has no RA phaser coverage at all, while the Fed gets 2 phasers covering their tail (4 on centerline).

So, considering all this, you can't just flat out tell me that a Ph-1 is a Ph-1.  SVC himself admits that values for "identical" boxes fluctuate based on arcs, number, coverage, expected amounts for typcial opposition, etc.

Taldren didn't take this into account, and they assigned a flat value to each box.  I'm willing to venture that each box is actually worth more than what Taldren assigns to them, hence the leftovers on the health bar when a ship is destroyed.