Topic: Wild Geese proposal: the immediate geese

[Lepton]

I know this proposal will not be popular but I will suggest it any way.  I think as we saw on SG6 the geese seem to be rarely called out in time to balance a server and keep it interesting for the side that is ahead and frankly for the side that is behind in server attendance.  I would propose a simple fix to the geese system that I will call the immediate geese.  These are a group of players that sign up as geese before the server begins that make it their job to keep the sides as even as is possible.  The immediate geese's job is easy.  Upon signing onto the server, he or she joins whatever side is in need of players.  Any immediate geese that log on subsequently will continue to join the side that is lacking players until a balance in numbers can be achieved if that is possible.  As server numbers change, geese will have to switch sides to keep things even.  That's it and I think it's the best that can be expected, i.e. that the server be as balanced numerically as it can be at any one moment.  It's the best objective criterion that I can think of to regulate the geese.

The type of player that would like to be part of the immediate geese will be the player that has no particular attachment to who wins or losses a server, but merely enjoys playing the game.  He will in general have no particular race preference or be willing to set aside those preferences to do a service to the community.  With the advent of having any number of race accounts on one side, it is merely a step further to allow a player to switch sides easily to help balance the server.  I would count myself among those who'd be willing to be an immediate geese.  Anyone else think this is a good idea??

[KBF-Crim]

Having the geese makes it too easy to excuse not playing after signing up...

[FPF-DieHard]

It is a good idea.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

A big drawback here is that Geese players could not be allowed to know about any planned operations, it is too difficult not to use such knowledge when changing sides.  Even if you think you aren't using the info you likely are subconsciously.  Also plans are constantly made on voice coms as well, so there is a danger there as well.  Not saying it is impossible to do, just that it has some big drawbacks as well.

[Dizzy]

"Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term. And wartime propaganda is usually, if not always, crafted to produce hysteria, the destruction of any sense of proportion. Such words, undefined and unmeasured, are used by people more interested in making us lose our heads than in keeping their own."

Promoting anti-semitic paleolibertarian anarchocapitalists? hehehe

I just love Leptons idea. Perfect for the PvP lovers... I hate being stuck on the side with more numbers. Means I have to wait for PvP or fight AI. Sign me up!

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The other drawback I see is that the situation online at any given moment is not necessisarily indictive of the overall server balance.

For example at 6 PM you have a 14- 9 Coalition/Alliance imbalance with 3 geese logging on.  They of course join the Alliance making the numbers 14-12.  Three hours later at 9 PM the numbers are at 8-8 when they all log off.  But one hour later at 11 PM  5 Alliance players sign on and it is now 8 - 13 in favor of the Alliance with no geese around. 

In this instance if the geese had not signed on at all a parity over time would have existed, but due to them trying to balance the numbers at any given time, they in effect created a numbers advantage for the side they joined.

The idea is a good one, but not so simple as it would look at first, various scenarios need to be considered.

[Hexx]

Chuut's right.

It's an interesting idea, but completely impractical unless you have everyone fly geese.

[Dizzy]

Awesome idea Hexx! Brilliant! An all Geese server!

[Father Ted]

I think Chuut's correct. There's an ebb and flow in numbers during different times of the day that is simply the nature of campaigns, artificially creating parity is a good idea in theory, but in practice it seems awkward, especially for the Goose.

For example, it's very early on a weekday morning. Deadman is flying Alliance against Kreug and Hexx. Chuut's a goose, so he logs onto the server as Alliance. Half an hour later, Jeff and I log on as Alliance, so in the span of 30 minutes, the number went from 2-1 Coalition to 4-2 Alliance. Is Chuut now obligated to log off and log back on as Coalition?

In the meantime, do we want him on TS listening to what we're planning to do, then he's forced to fly for the other side, but knows what we're up to? It's obvious we can't give him access to our forums because operations are planned in detail with little maps and orders from our current RM. Kinda leaves him out in the cold. Like I said, it's a good idea in theory, I'm not quite so sure in reality.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

what geese produce...

[KBFLordKrueg]

I know this proposal will not be popular but I will suggest it any way.  I think as we saw on SG6 the geese seem to be rarely called out in time to balance a server and keep it interesting for the side that is ahead and frankly for the side that is behind in server attendance.  I would propose a simple fix to the geese system that I will call the immediate geese.  These are a group of players that sign up as geese before the server begins that make it their job to keep the sides as even as is possible.  The immediate geese's job is easy.  Upon signing onto the server, he or she joins whatever side is in need of players.  Any immediate geese that log on subsequently will continue to join the side that is lacking players until a balance in numbers can be achieved if that is possible.  As server numbers change, geese will have to switch sides to keep things even.  That's it and I think it's the best that can be expected, i.e. that the server be as balanced numerically as it can be at any one moment.  It's the best objective criterion that I can think of to regulate the geese.

The type of player that would like to be part of the immediate geese will be the player that has no particular attachment to who wins or losses a server, but merely enjoys playing the game.  He will in general have no particular race preference or be willing to set aside those preferences to do a service to the community.  With the advent of having any number of race accounts on one side, it is merely a step further to allow a player to switch sides easily to help balance the server.  I would count myself among those who'd be willing to be an immediate geese.  Anyone else think this is a good idea??

The Geese came in a few at a time, I was the one who recommended the whole group not be deployed at once.

And Chutt made a good point, player numbers swing depending on time of day, along with other factors, such as holidays, weekends, etc.
Having large numbers of players swicthing sides constantly would be, IMOHPO, detremental to the overall stragedy of particular sides.

Maybe if players who signed up actually SHOWED up....

I doubt there will ever be truely "balanced" campaigns.

Each side needs to learn to take the losses along with the victories.

Just MPO....

[762_XC]

The problem with the geese on SGO6 was that there really was only one goose. The other two did not want to switch, and did not even seem to realize they were geese until they were called.

[Lepton]

The other drawback I see is that the situation online at any given moment is not necessisarily indictive of the overall server balance.

For example at 6 PM you have a 14- 9 Coalition/Alliance imbalance with 3 geese logging on.  They of course join the Alliance making the numbers 14-12.  Three hours later at 9 PM the numbers are at 8-8 when they all log off.  But one hour later at 11 PM  5 Alliance players sign on and it is now 8 - 13 in favor of the Alliance with no geese around. 

In this instance if the geese had not signed on at all a parity over time would have existed, but due to them trying to balance the numbers at any given time, they in effect created a numbers advantage for the side they joined.

The idea is a good one, but not so simple as it would look at first, various scenarios need to be considered.

It works out through the law of averages.  And it is in no way impractical.  We all did it last server.  We switched from race to race at the drop of a hat.  Here the geese merely switch sides.  No biggie.  And as I said, it would have to be people with no particular attachment to who wins the server.  We have geese now.  Do they violate the confidences of the sides they fly for?  Are you telling me that Karnak for instance went and blabbed all the Coalition's plans to the Alliance?  I think not.  Any system could be abused.  We all play this game with a gentleman's oath to be fair and honest.  Do you doubt the trustworthiness of your fellows?  Come. Come.  Say it isn't so?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

It works out through the law of averages. 

depends on your definition of "working out", I would guess it would work out by my definition not much better than 50%.  The side that is ahead when you have gesse on isn't necessarily the side that needs the pilots most over the course of the whole day, you might even be making the problem worse.  I prefer an attempt at balancing which would have very little chance of making an imbalance worse.  The previous method while less helpful than some would like at least doesn't do this.  It is good that folkes are thinking about this sort of thing an I applaud you for the effort Lepton, but I don't see this as a solution. 

We have geese now.  Do they violate the confidences of the sides they fly for?  Are you telling me that Karnak for instance went and blabbed all the Coalition's plans to the Alliance?  I think not.  Any system could be abused.  We all play this game with a gentleman's oath to be fair and honest.  Do you doubt the trustworthiness of your fellows?  Come. Come.  Say it isn't so?

Didn't you read my post above?

"A big drawback here is that Geese players could not be allowed to know about any planned operations, it is too difficult not to use such knowledge when changing sides. Even if you think you aren't using the info you likely are subconsciously."

No one would likely blab secret info, but they would have it in the back of their head and likely utilize it subconsciously.

[Dizzy]

I hadn't previously discussed this much, but I figure this might be the appropriate time since we are talking about planning and players switching sides... Once Hexx switched to the coalition and then I did, Krueg had left for the moment and there was a leadership vacancy. All the coalition plans were revealed to me, but Hexx and I had other ideas... Instead of following what Krueg had laid out, and knowing what the alliance had planned, Hexx and I got together and were going to take over the leadership of the coalition and surrender to the alliance France style and end the destructive war raging across the quadrant... Alas, Krueg came back before we could put our plan in motion, but I think it had a good chance of succeeding.

You cant ever trust a goose. 

[GDA-Agave]

I think that if Geese players were going to be used for a server all the elements need to be nailed down.   Particularly who the players are and when the switch times should be.    I don't like the idea of "immediate" Geese.   If they switch sides, they should stay there until the next look at players balance numbers are done.   Balancing players numbers on an hour to hour basis is just silly, IMHO.

Say, designate X number of players as Geese BEFORE the server starts.   Even have some alternates in case a regular Geese player has to drop out.  (when he/she does drop out, they would no longer be a Geese player for that server;  just in case they are able fly more later)  No more than 5 listed Geese players at any time would be my suggestion.

Switch times, say 3 days after server start, then every 5, 6, or 7 days after that.   Posts would be put on all necessary forums letting all sides know beforehand what is about to occur.  Say 24 hrs in advance.   This would let all sides get prepared, or even request no switch is made, if they wanted.

Now I know a few players jumped back and forth on SGO6 constantly.  Dizzy being the most noticable.  I'm sure since he's a PvP whore that he was just trying to create the best "target rich" environment for himself  at any given moment.   Hey, he was a server admin so I didn't think much about it.    BUT, if lots of players started to do that it would be quite annoying IMHO.   The more players switch sides, the more secretive the operational planners will become.  Hell, I was a race RM as I was in SGO6 I would suggest that nothing more than day to day strategies be posted.   Even those could have a serious chance of being FUBARed by players switching sides at whim.

Structured Geese system ok, immediate Geese switching idea bad.

[Max Torps]

I wonder what the possibility is of utilising PHP/MySQL to allow/disallow sign ups for races based on recent activity?
Say we have a 4 race server for the sake of example.
F K R M
The Feds have a large sign up, last time I was here they stayed high. Then you get Klinks, then Rom Or Mirak in this example.
After a few days many Roms haven't signed on but the other races are fighting valiantly so the only options on the server for start characters are Rom...

Downsides are:
Player wishes. If you didn't like Rom you just wouldn't sign up if you felt that strongly. Leading to a potential lost player.
Cuckoos. Player signs up as a Rom hoping the balance will change later and feeds info to their preferred side. Apologies, no slur intended! Just an example.  Separate issue that can be resolved by limited comms.
Script writing to manipulate server setting and so on.

Leading me to the next train of thought...
What about allowing all race sign ups as normal but when the server activity of Roms has hit a low for a few days or whatever, the highest race has a limit on active players able to login?

Downside:
Severely p**sed off player who just wants to play his/her side.
Loyalty - see above. Separate issue that can be resolved by limited comms.

Upside:
Allows geese a server initiated prompt (disallowing login for majority race above a certain limit ) to switch sides that is more regulated to ebb and flow of normal traffic.

I can't remember how the gf file that looked after race logins was looked at by the server, whether updates were allowed realtime or on reboot. I suspect reboot would be needed.

Anyway, just rambling out some thoughts. 

[Lepton]

I don't think you guys understand the law of averages.  Given a certain number of geese and holding the average number of players on each side as relatively constant over time, on average the geese will be more likely to be flying for the side that is lower in numbers.  Will there be occasions in which geese will be flying for the side that has more numbers on average?  Yes, but this scheme is an alternative to the geese getting called out late.  I call it immediate geese not only because they switch relatively immediately but also because they are in effect immediately, i.e. not delayed in being called out until it is too late.

Take this past server.  Had this scheme been in effect, given enough geese, player numbers would have been much more balanced overall.

If I had the sufficient software, time, and a decent model, I could probably produce a simulation that would show you that this would work.  Right now as I see it there are effectively no geese.  With this scheme, I would think people would be more likely to volunteer for geese service as it gives them more freedom.

Be that as it may, I am suggesting an objective and transparent criteria for calling on the geese whereas now I think we have none and it shows.  If someone would like to posit a better alternative that is objective, I'd be glad to hear it.

[Lepton]

Balancing players numbers on an hour to hour basis is just silly, IMHO.

Why silly? What other games do you play that have a multiplayer component wherein you log onto a server that has sides?  What do you do?  Log onto the side that has more players on it so that the sides are further imbalanced?  I sure don't.  You make the sides as even as you can by your participation.  It happens all the time.  It's not silly.  In fact, I'd say that it is the rule rather than the exception.

[Lepton]

Switch times, say 3 days after server start, then every 5, 6, or 7 days after that.   Posts would be put on all necessary forums letting all sides know beforehand what is about to occur.  Say 24 hrs in advance.   This would let all sides get prepared, or even request no switch is made, if they wanted.

How are you going to know when to do these switches or even what the server numbers are per side?  Mere perceptions?  Those can always be argued about.  There is no objective critieria in what you suggest.  There is always an initial resistance to calling out the geese.  Someone with enough balls makes the suggestion, the other side whines and bitches and says  "No, no, not yet, it's only X days into the server", and the delay in calling the geese is put off until it is so obvious that the server numbers are imbalanced that the course of the server is already determined.  In what I suggest the criterion is completely measurable, objective, and transparent:  how many players are on the server per side.  I can count.  You can count.  It's that simple.  Anything else will be arguable unless someone can give statistics on player numbers per side per hour or per day, but that is not obtainable as far as I know.