Topic: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?  (Read 10427 times)

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Offline Wraith 413

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2006, 03:51:05 pm »
 In the PBR rule set, the number of PPD's were restricted also, based on hull type, although in D2 limiting PPD to one ship would probably work. Any thoughts on how to integrate specialty ships into a fleet? ( Droners, maulers.......)   



Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2006, 03:58:26 pm »
In the PBR rule set, the number of PPD's were restricted also, based on hull type, although in D2 limiting PPD to one ship would probably work.


Yeah, it's gotta be kept simple.



Any thoughts on how to integrate specialty ships into a fleet? ( Droners, maulers.......)   

I don't find 2 D5Ds and D5K too OTT, do you?   ;D  The 3rd ship being forced to be Line (non-command) makes things reasoanble

Yeah, to specials can wing togehther but I don't think that is too big of a deal.
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2006, 05:46:07 pm »

- 2 ship Fleet:  A Carrier MUST wing with an escort of the same race


Not saying this is a wrong approach or anything, but just curious why an escort of an allied race wouldn't do?  Certain pilots of lesser played races might like more opportunity to fly a carrier with a wing.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2006, 06:30:38 pm »

- 2 ship Fleet:  A Carrier MUST wing with an escort of the same race


Not saying this is a wrong approach or anything, but just curious why an escort of an allied race wouldn't do?  Certain pilots of lesser played races might like more opportunity to fly a carrier with a wing.


A good point, but with the race swapping that we see these days does that really matter?  I'm the ultimate Federation Race-whore who racked up 100K in Gorn on the last server. 

There are less cheese combos with the first escort being of the same race than there are with it being allied.

PS I forgot to mention X-tech, I post my idea on that later after fleshing it out a bit more
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2006, 08:01:00 pm »

A good point, but with the race swapping that we see these days does that really matter?

Actually it might as some players may be reluctant to switch into an escort of a race that was unfamiliar to them.  You are alreeady asking that the wingman switch to an escort, add the reqirement that it be a particular races escort and it might cut into the willingness.  Additionally, there is no guarentee that a particular race's escorts will be in the shipyard at any given time, if allied races escorts are acceptable you increase the chances of one being available.

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2006, 08:15:49 pm »

A good point, but with the race swapping that we see these days does that really matter?

Actually it might as some players may be reluctant to switch into an escort of a race that was unfamiliar to them. 

You'd do it if I told you to.

Seriously don't think this is an issue. You'll have 10 players decide to start flying carriers and 11 stop when they get tired of stupid fighter tricks.

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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2006, 08:33:18 pm »


You'd do it if I told you to.


No I'd do it if you paid me enough  ;)

Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2006, 09:11:21 am »
- Only 1 PPD equiped ship in a Fleet (this will start flames  ;D  )

Not necessarily.  Knowing that, in PBR, you have hours / days to come up with a legal fleet, semi-elaborate rules are useful.  In D2, you have all of 30 seconds from the time the enemy fleet enters scanning range till you engage to confirm the legality of the opposition.  The rule needs to be very simplistic to make it easy to check the legality in that 30 second window.

I have no problem cutting back on the D2 PPD's, especially if we're going to a low-no cheese environment that PBR (version of SFB S8.0) grants.  The only exception I'd ask for is the ability to fly 2 1xPPD ships in a 3 ship fleet, being either a CA / CM or 2x CM combination.  I'd appreciate a 2xCA edition in the rule, but as long as the CATY/CATZ (pure torpedo CA) is common enough to be a viable CA alternative that should allow the ISC to have 3x heavy cruiser fleets without needing 2x - 3x PPD ships.

This allows more ISC pilots the ability to fly ships with ISC-weaponry and be able to instantaneously respond to an issue by ad-hoc fleeting, instead of having the ISC constantly buying pure plasma boats to fleet then buying PPD ships for solo work...

To make it simple, write the rule(s) like this:
The ISC must fly at least 1 "pure plasma" (no PPD) ship in any fleet. <- more for the 2 ship fleets
The ISC cannot fly more than 2 PPDs in any given fleet, unless the only PPD ship in that fleet naturally carries more than 2 PPDs (which is only the DN / BB anyway.)  The ISC also cannot field 2 PPD-equipped CAs in any given fleet.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 09:42:36 am by Julin Eurthyr »

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2006, 12:23:20 pm »
I am looking forward to the next server that includes the ISC.  I have never flown them in a campaign and I intend to do that at my next opportunity, if only to see what all the wubbub is.


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Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2006, 12:43:59 pm »

PBR was awesome in the GZ league.  Those three-on-three fights were the best SFC combats I've ever played, in any form of the game.  If PBR can be adapted to work in the D2 format I would certainly enjoy it.

To borrow an idea from Squadron Commander, if you want to make it really simple, just give all ships a prefix of c, l, or s. (For command, line, or support.)  Solo with only one ship, you fly what you want.  If you have a wingman or multiple ships, however, only one "c" and only one "s" is allowed in your group.  If multiple versions of these get accidentally drafted together, someone just has to leave.

In this scheme, I'd consider all true carriers to be "c" ships.    Many Hydran hybrids, however, would be "l".   

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Right on!

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2006, 12:47:12 pm »

A good point, but with the race swapping that we see these days does that really matter?

Actually it might as some players may be reluctant to switch into an escort of a race that was unfamiliar to them. 

You'd do it if I told you to.

Seriously don't think this is an issue. You'll have 10 players decide to start flying carriers and 11 stop when they get tired of stupid fighter tricks.



Some of us fly carriers.....and actually like them...stupid fighters and all... ;)

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2006, 06:25:51 pm »
- Only 1 PPD equiped ship in a Fleet (this will start flames  ;D  )

Not necessarily.  Knowing that, in PBR, you have hours / days to come up with a legal fleet, semi-elaborate rules are useful.  In D2, you have all of 30 seconds from the time the enemy fleet enters scanning range till you engage to confirm the legality of the opposition.  The rule needs to be very simplistic to make it easy to check the legality in that 30 second window.

I have no problem cutting back on the D2 PPD's, especially if we're going to a low-no cheese environment that PBR (version of SFB S8.0) grants.  The only exception I'd ask for is the ability to fly 2 1xPPD ships in a 3 ship fleet, being either a CA / CM or 2x CM combination.  I'd appreciate a 2xCA edition in the rule, but as long as the CATY/CATZ (pure torpedo CA) is common enough to be a viable CA alternative that should allow the ISC to have 3x heavy cruiser fleets without needing 2x - 3x PPD ships.

This allows more ISC pilots the ability to fly ships with ISC-weaponry and be able to instantaneously respond to an issue by ad-hoc fleeting, instead of having the ISC constantly buying pure plasma boats to fleet then buying PPD ships for solo work...

To make it simple, write the rule(s) like this:
The ISC must fly at least 1 "pure plasma" (no PPD) ship in any fleet. <- more for the 2 ship fleets
The ISC cannot fly more than 2 PPDs in any given fleet, unless the only PPD ship in that fleet naturally carries more than 2 PPDs (which is only the DN / BB anyway.)  The ISC also cannot field 2 PPD-equipped CAs in any given fleet.

No  :P

The point is to minimize the cheesy combos and 1 PPD ship per fleet of 3 does this.
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Offline Dfly

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2006, 06:33:59 pm »
My Recommendation for PPD ruling:

No ISC fleet(2 ship) can have more than 2 PPD between them
No ISC fleet(3 ship) can have more than 4 PPD between them

Also, as much as I like the idea that a carrier must have same race escort, I am not too keen on it due to some races(Lyrans in particular) have escorts that suck worse than their carriers, which suck.  The idea that escorts are not always listed when needed can also be an issue that slows down anyone buying a carrier.  Due to this I beleive any race escort can wing with the carrier, mainly to make the escort viable as a time saver.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2006, 07:16:58 pm »
My Recommendation for PPD ruling:

No ISC fleet(2 ship) can have more than 2 PPD between them
No ISC fleet(3 ship) can have more than 4 PPD between them


Does this meen they can never fly a DN ever?  :)

I disagree, even when I flew ISC in PBR.  With only 1 PPD-Ship per fleet, ISC still can put togehter some viscious legal combinations.  The CCZ/CLZ/CLZ is an evil combo, a C7/DWL/D5W or BCG/CB/NCA combo would be hard pressed to beat this especiually with the new pack of ED missions where cornoring your opponent is no longer a option.   

Keepin in mind, the CLZ also get Mechlinks so the ISC would be the only race to be able to filed 6 Casual PFs in a fleet.  They are by no means screwed with these fleeting rules.
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Offline Dfly

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2006, 07:34:19 pm »
I guess I was thinking within the heavy ships limits, and did not add in capital ships etc.

I can see why you now want 1 ship only for PPD.  And I agree, it certainly does not hurt their race.

Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2006, 11:31:37 pm »
- Only 1 PPD equiped ship in a Fleet (this will start flames  ;D  )

Not necessarily.  Knowing that, in PBR, you have hours / days to come up with a legal fleet, semi-elaborate rules are useful.  In D2, you have all of 30 seconds from the time the enemy fleet enters scanning range till you engage to confirm the legality of the opposition.  The rule needs to be very simplistic to make it easy to check the legality in that 30 second window.

I have no problem cutting back on the D2 PPD's, especially if we're going to a low-no cheese environment that PBR (version of SFB S8.0) grants.  The only exception I'd ask for is the ability to fly 2 1xPPD ships in a 3 ship fleet, being either a CA / CM or 2x CM combination.  I'd appreciate a 2xCA edition in the rule, but as long as the CATY/CATZ (pure torpedo CA) is common enough to be a viable CA alternative that should allow the ISC to have 3x heavy cruiser fleets without needing 2x - 3x PPD ships.

This allows more ISC pilots the ability to fly ships with ISC-weaponry and be able to instantaneously respond to an issue by ad-hoc fleeting, instead of having the ISC constantly buying pure plasma boats to fleet then buying PPD ships for solo work...

To make it simple, write the rule(s) like this:
The ISC must fly at least 1 "pure plasma" (no PPD) ship in any fleet. <- more for the 2 ship fleets
The ISC cannot fly more than 2 PPDs in any given fleet, unless the only PPD ship in that fleet naturally carries more than 2 PPDs (which is only the DN / BB anyway.)  The ISC also cannot field 2 PPD-equipped CAs in any given fleet.

No  :P

The point is to minimize the cheesy combos and 1 PPD ship per fleet of 3 does this.

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

When are these grand plans to get the UI's updated gonna happen, I'm starting to really want a brighter-red Klink interface...  ::)

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2006, 07:25:56 am »

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

You might actually learn how to fly :P

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

Bullsh*t, you can get enough to buy a BCH is a day of moderate playing.  on a 2-3 week server, "I can't afford it" is BS.

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Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2006, 11:53:42 am »
Keepin in mind, the CLZ also get Mechlinks so the ISC would be the only race to be able to filed 6 Casual PFs in a fleet.  They are by no means screwed with these fleeting rules.

To me, this is not a viable long-term solution.  6xPFs carry enough plasma to rip apart a BB, and completely shred a BCH in one pass.  I give 2 servers, maximum, before the ISC exclusive ability to do this goes the way of the Caveat III, a unit with proven, demonstrated capacity to do just what the 6xPFs can do.

Therefore, for the long term, the ISC needs to begin contemplating non-metal fleets that would be legal without the PFs.  As the ISC can legally build fleets around the CS, that will become the "default" PPD ship, granting us 2xPPDs in every engagement.

Given the current common shiplist, the CS would also be the largest fieldable ship in said fleets, as there are only 2 non-metal ships larger than the CS, specifically the CM / CA, both of which are excluded due to the 1 PPD they carry.

Seeing these limitations beforehand, I am requesting the rule allow the option of fielding, in a larger than 3xCL non-metal fleet, as many PPDs (no more) than the CS carries.  My proposal specifically spells out that limit, and also prohibits the fielding of (effectively) 2xCCH level vessels (the no 2xCA bit).  Granted, this larger fleet may be capable of repeatedly defeating competing BCH-inclusive "metal" fleets, but having at least 1-2 non-metal fleets that can take down metal is a good thing in my book to help encourage the use of non-metal ships.

Now, onto the "personal" stuff:

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

You might actually learn how to fly :P
And I thought the fact that I handled, at least semi-competently, Fed, Klink, Rommie & Hydran ships on various servers when I was able to proves that I do have at least some competence in "flying", even if I choose to rely on the "crutch" of the "uber" ISC when possible...

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

Bullsh*t, you can get enough to buy a BCH is a day of moderate playing.  on a 2-3 week server, "I can't afford it" is BS.
Quote

To the "average" casual player, you're right.  They can afford a BCH or 2, fairly regularly.

That's not me.  This, is me:

Unlike you, I have much more responsabilities, and a lot less guarantees.  These responsabilities prevent me from getting even a 1 hour sitting where I can be 100% assured of no interruptions.  Since I can't guarantee myself that I'll be able to finish a me vs AI battle without having to drop everything and deal with my responsabilities, I will not torture a fellow player who's counting on me to be there and me having to disappear.  Therefore, I will not serve as a wingman, except in extremely rare cases (often late at night), where I might get the chance to do so.

Then, with current mission difficulties, and the already accepted responses of "get a wing" or "suffer" as options to deal with them, I find myself frequently on the "suffer" side of the line.  While it takes me 3x as long to complete a mission, and I spend 1/2 to 3/4 the PP take on repairs / supplies, I'm still advancing, right?  Take this slow advancement, combine it with limited play time, and I'm lucky to make it halfway to Commodore.  If I get lucky on enough missions with minor damage, I, too, can (finally) afford that BCH.

Oh wait.  It's a restricted "metal" ship.  For the good of the team, who should posess that metal ship, the pilot who, casual or not, can guarantee the team that he can wing with it for even an hour a day, or the pilot who can, when the stars are in proper alignment and all that other super-rare jazz, might be able to run 1 or 2 missions with a wing.  Hence my "nor use it freely" comment after my inability to really afford one.

Team, fairness to my fellows, and my own unique set of circumstances, usually find me out of the BCH race.  Now, you're telling me that if, on the spur of the moment I can actually wing with someone for at least a couple of missions, I either limit the team to 1xPPD if I have a CA, or I'm stuck in the CS / CL on down.  Oh, I do have the option of buying the right ship, but that delays my ability to wing properly, and, there's a good chance by the time I get my new ship I won't be able to wing due to the aforementioned responsabilities.  Hence my "no CA for me" spiel, if I want to maintain the option of me being able to wing on a moment's notice and still support the team by allowing us to have a 2xPPD ship, I need to be in a pure plasma boat.

Last I checked, it was the PPD that actually made the ISC the ISC, and not a watered down Gorn.  For the plasma races, their tricks are:
Rommies - cloak
Gorn - super-tough hull & wide arcing phasers
ISC - PPD

Hence my wanna-be Gorn comment.  No 1-PPD ship to allow me the option to wing on a moment's notice on the off chance I can actually do so, and no extra hull to support my purely-plasma armed ship when I'm flying solo.

I wonder how many of us, either still remaining or already departed, are in the same set of circumstances as me.  While I do not insist that every decision be made around my set of circumstances, I do hope that I can influence decisions to still allow me as much fun in this game as I can eek out of it while still being fair to the entire community.  Sadly, decisions and stances like this tell me that I'm not welcome here unless I can meet certain sets of RL requirements, requirements that I will never be able to do for at least 3 more years, if I'm lucky.  Given the conditions of at least 2 of my family members, I might be in a position that I will never be able to fully commit even an hour a night for a 2 week stretch for the remainder of my natural life without these responsabilities being around to call me out of the game.

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2006, 12:30:58 pm »
I guess I was thinking within the heavy ships limits, and did not add in capital ships etc.

I can see why you now want 1 ship only for PPD.  And I agree, it certainly does not hurt their race.

Agreed. 1 PPD ship per fleet combo will work.

Offline Riskyllama

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Re: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2006, 04:15:57 pm »

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

You might actually learn how to fly :P

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

Bullsh*t, you can get enough to buy a BCH is a day of moderate playing.  on a 2-3 week server, "I can't afford it" is BS.



I couldnt afford a BCH on SGO6...so um yeah...about that
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