Topic: Would Jahkle's PBR system work in D2?

[FPF-DieHard]

Jahkle's PBR setup was awsome though kinda complicated.  this did lead to soem pretty balanced and non-cheesy combinations.

You guys think this could be adapted to D2?   We seem to be slowly heading this way anway, maybe embracing this is the best way to end the cheese fleets that everyone (myself included) seem to always put together.

Imagine, having to have Carrier escorted only by escorts, a 3-ship fleet MUST contain a line ship, etc . . .

Those who played PBR should chime in, do you guys think this idea makes sense?

[Dfly]

I have always liked it.  I would approve of at least running one campaign with similar rulings.

[Hexx]

I didn't get to play it. In fact I believe it shut down right after I asked if I could join.

However (iirc) it was based on an idea that you could only have 1 command variant in a fleet?
While I really don';t have an issue with restricting specialty, and like the idea of carriers/tenders having to be escorted by escorts
Not sure if I want to set up a fleet where a couple of peeps get thrown into standard ships.

Now, if you used it to set up what could wing with metal/carriers/tenders/etc that would be cool.

[FPF-DieHard]

I didn't get to play it. In fact I believe it shut down right after I asked if I could join.

However (iirc) it was based on an idea that you could only have 1 command variant in a fleet?
While I really don';t have an issue with restricting specialty, and like the idea of carriers/tenders having to be escorted by escorts
Not sure if I want to set up a fleet where a couple of peeps get thrown into standard ships.

Now, if you used it to set up what could wing with metal/carriers/tenders/etc that would be cool.

We'd have to modify this somehow.   There was no race mixing in PBR for example and it would have to be simnplfied

[Hexx]

Simplifying is easy, just put a letter a/b/c/whatver in front/behind the shipname and use it fo the resticted ships
(V has to wing with an "A", can't have 2 "B"s in a fleet, etc)

It'd just have to be decided how far you want to go.

[TraumaTech]

i think Jakle had it right with his version of PBR


difficulties i c for  PBR on the dynaverse is,if you use that type of set up,is that anyone flying solo would only be allowed to use particular ships  ie; droners were classed as support ships(as i recall) so your hex flippers would have to wing with some one to fly a droner.which is kinda kewl,slows the nutter flippers who change the whole maps in one night down considerably. flippers and solo pvp players may not be impressed with thier selection of ships which might uninspire  some players

 i don't think you need to have a heavy metal limit  as heavy metal =command varient  which can only be flown 3v3   can't remember if they were allowed in 2v2's  but i have the links on my old computer to Jakles site re; rules / what ship was considered what and when they could be flown   also break down on each ships races   if you don't already have these links

personally  i think allowing multi races fleet combo would be a good idea  simply to add variety to ship selections   especially for your solo players  whether flippers or pvp players

[Dfly]

I have a copy of all the allowable ships for each race on my computer.  I think the sites where the lists were had been taken down some time ago.

[762_XC]

PBR would be cool but it would have to be a "concept server", similar to Litterbox 4 with full OOB. Grognards will love it and casual players won't even bother to show because of the complexity.

You will need a means of dealing with the inevitable illegal fleets that people field due to lack of rules awareness. Even in the league we had this, and people had weeks to prepare combos.

[FPF-DieHard]

This would have to be simplyfied and modified from the league format, for one thing I think solo pilots should be able to fly whatever specialty ships they want.  Maybe just as simple as a 3-ship fleet must have one line ship and the carrier/escort thingy.

This makes for a good discussion.

[TraumaTech]

PBR would be cool but it would have to be a "concept server", similar to Litterbox 4 with full OOB. Grognards will love it and casual players won't even bother to show because of the complexity.

You will need a means of dealing with the inevitable illegal fleets that people field due to lack of rules awareness. Even in the league we had this, and people had weeks to prepare combos.

   agreed    how ever  being that you can put whatever ships you want in a shipyard  ....could you not add categories to the shipyards   ie   command varients under one selction,supports under another,escorts and carriers under another....and then your, for lack of a better term..vanillla ships under another list in the shipyard????  of coarse this presupposes that the "OIC " is still not working by this time,which i see turns into something far easier to do if all the ships  ie  frigates,lites,heavies and dreads had a further breakdown of what is command varient,support,carriers,and escorts  and finally what is left is your vanilla fleet......mind you,i say all this having NO idea of how much work,Bonk AND OR Mags would have to do to the  "OIC" to incorporate all this

[FPF-DieHard]

PBR would be cool but it would have to be a "concept server", similar to Litterbox 4 with full OOB. Grognards will love it and casual players won't even bother to show because of the complexity.

You will need a means of dealing with the inevitable illegal fleets that people field due to lack of rules awareness. Even in the league we had this, and people had weeks to prepare combos.

   agreed    how ever  being that you can put whatever ships you want in a shipyard  ....could you not add categories to the shipyards   ie   command varients under one selction,supports under another,escorts and carriers under another....and then your, for lack of a better term..vanillla ships under another list in the shipyard????  of coarse this presupposes that the "OIC " is still not working by this time,which i see turns into something far easier to do if all the ships  ie  frigates,lites,heavies and dreads had a further breakdown of what is command varient,support,carriers,and escorts  and finally what is left is your vanilla fleet......mind you,i say all this having NO idea of how much work,Bonk AND OR Mags would have to do to the  "OIC" to incorporate all this

It's not too hard, use desginator int eh shipname:

F-cCC+, F-NCA (no designator), F-vCVS+, . . .

[762_XC]

The designators would be mandatory.

It might be interesting to try; I predict carriers will never be flown though.

A LOT of people will bitch when they realize two command ships cannot fleet together.

[FPF-DieHard]

It might be interesting to try; I predict carriers will never be flown though.

Not if Hexx has his way . . . .   

A LOT of people will bitch when they realize two command ships cannot fleet together.

I don't think they will, or maybe we Should let CCs fly together.   It's all up for debate

Inter-race fleet needs to be hammered out

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Might work for a specialty server as t00l says for the Ladder league types.  I might give it a try once, but I suspect I'd lose interest pretty quick and find myself playing City of Heroes again.  I could be surprised, but I wasn't very interested in any ladder leaugue pay, and although I enjoyed filling in as a replacement from time to time, such stringent structures just don't hold my interest.  Still, I'd be willing to try it once, if I could manage to stick it out on GW5 I figure I'm willing to tolerate anything once.

In all honesty however, for my personal preferences this is a step in the wrong direction.  I think its ok to reward certain ship choices but I'm very much against restricting of others except at the furthest end of the spectrum.

[762_XC]

I think if you let command ships wing there's no point to it at all. The whole point of PBR is to make fleets more SFB-ish.

[FPF-DieHard]

In all honesty however, for my personal preferences this is a step in the wrong direction.  I think its ok to reward certain ship choices but I'm very much against restricting of others except at the furthest end of the spectrum.

You can fly whatever you want solo, just have restrictions as to what can fly together

[FPF-DieHard]

I think if you let command ships wing there's no point to it at all. The whole point of PBR is to make fleets more SFB-ish.

The point of this is general CHeese reduction, it doesn't have to be exactly the same as PBR.  D2's fluid nature means this has to be more flexible

[FPF-Paladin]

I like the idea... looked into it myself a while back while tossing server ideas around.

[762_XC]

Well if you want a vastly simplified version of it, just make a rule that says you can only have one specialty ship in any given fleet.

But I wouldn't call it "PBR" as a big part of that is the command ship limitations.

[ShadowLord]

I think jakle just got busy with R/L issues and his new game "dawn of war" so PBR sort of died out -- those who took part in it -- for the most part found it very refreshing for the concepts of  -- NO CHEESE -- and learning to out think the other team in ship selection.

All that being said if it could work for a campaign great --

However maybe we should take one weekend -- and hold a nice little PBR funfest..

FSD would join (I assume)
XC ( I assume)
KHH
several indy team -- heck all we need is 4-6 teams and we got a night of great fun. Someone needs to step up and put that in place.

Duck

[KHH Jakle]

Some things you need to think about when trying to introduce some PBR concepts to D2 (my unqualified opinion):

You shouldn't need to deal with the nitty gritty detail to emulate a PBR type environment.

Try reverse engineering it.  Instead of having to deal with keeping track of what everybody was flying, simply restrict all the restricted ships (so Command, Carrier/Escorts, Support).  Then ONLY line ships (use PBR's definition or a relaxed set) would be available for general consumption. 

I believe then that in other servers, it has been demonstrated that it can be set up so that the few restricted ships (BCH's for example) could be 'assigned' to specific owners - is this not correct?

Of course, you could then end up with everybody flying around in Heavy Cruisers...not that this is inherently bad.  Is that any worse than then EVERYBODY flying around in friggin CC's? 

Well...of course, the average Heavy Cruiser is inferior to it's CC.  But that was always the point - this game isn't a test between you and the other Capt on a level playing field, it is a test in how you fight YOUR ship, warts and all.  You want a level playing field, lets all just suit up in blue and do Mirror/Mirror.

[Skaren]

This was a suggestion a while ago,..


It seems to me the issue is that everyone takes all these specialty ships over the regular line ships,.. why cause they are better.

How about restricting what people can buy ?  When I go to a dealership for a car, the Lamborghini is not even in the lot for purchase.  Is there no way to limit the ship selection to line ships with only "occasionally" there being some small number of specialty ships available.   Do players always have to have like 20-30 ships to choose from ?  What if for some turns of the game only line ships were in the dock for purchase, with an occasional specialty ship.  Maybe some level of randomness to what is in the dock can be generated with some PHP code.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The General War 5 server was the death of the OOB system where specialty ships and heavy metal were specifically assigned to players.

I for one will Never play on a server with that type of OOB again, suffered through it once and that was enough.

[762_XC]

The General War 5 server was the death of the OOB system where specialty ships and heavy metal were specifically assigned to players.

I wouldn't be too sure of that.

[Skaren]

Chuut,

What was bad about it?

I did not play in it.

S

[Capt Jeff]

I assigned ships to specific players on SS2.  What a terrible idea that was really.


You assign a person a large ship, then for whatever reason, they don't log in for 5 days+ leaving their side without a valuable asset.

Now, SS3 will have fleeting rules.  No capital ships fleeting, no CF's or 6 racks droners fleeting with each other or other capital ships.

And I need Dizzy to send me his SGO6 rules for his points system for capital ships so I can look that over.

[762_XC]

It was only terrible because you couldn't transfer the ship to someone else. It's more work to keep track of that way, but much more rewarding when you kill something.

[Dizzy]

I assigned ships to specific players on SS2.  What a terrible idea that was really.


You assign a person a large ship, then for whatever reason, they don't log in for 5 days+ leaving their side without a valuable asset.

Now, SS3 will have fleeting rules.  No capital ships fleeting, no CF's or 6 racks droners fleeting with each other or other capital ships.

And I need Dizzy to send me his SGO6 rules for his points system for capital ships so I can look that over.

It's all right here Jeff. PM me for any question.

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163369012.msg1122732962.html#msg1122732962

[FPF-DieHard]

I love OOB BUT IT IS A COLLASAL PAIN IN THE ASS!   

Maybe if SQL worked


Fleeting rules seem the best way to go, let's BS about this tonight when we blow some p00p up.

[KBFLordKrueg]

I love OOB BUT IT IS A COLLASAL PAIN IN THE ASS!   

Maybe if SQL worked

Couldn't agree more...

[Toast]

Pbr went for what 3 or 4 seasons? and their was different rule additions as we all went along dunno if anyone kept rule sets from the 1st thru the last. maybe someone has em, seemed the 1st was rather simple if I recall start from the 1st if yeh gotem and see what fits Pbr was great fun as it went along some of the best battles win or loss i personally ever flew in  I never got into the dyna side of things will keep a watch an see what yeh all come up with.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Chuut,

What was bad about it?

I did not play in it.

S

Aside from the complications of assignments and lack of transfers for the OOB ships, it was incredibly unfriendly for the newer players and non aces.

If an OOB ship was lost it was gone for good, so suppose you had a newbie who wanted to fly DNs, either you tell the newbie they can't, or that they must fly off the front lines, or you let them do it and were likely to lose the ship for good.  Thats assuming the newbie/non-ace would even dare to ask to fly one, even if they wanted to they were likely deterred by not wanting to hurt the team. 

[762_XC]

That is indeed the downside, which is balanced by the upside that a DN kill is a significant blow to the enemy and can alter the balance of power on the front line.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

That is indeed the downside, which is balanced by the upside that a DN kill is a significant blow to the enemy and can alter the balance of power on the front line.

I don't see that as coming close to balancing the disadvantage of not encouraging newer players and non aces to get to fly what they want to without worry of hurting the team.  Especially when you add in all the complicated record keeping and the lack of ability for all players to fly whatever ship they are in the mood to fly.  I know I wont be flying on a server like GW5 ever again, but some might enjoy such a server, no reason they shouldn't have the chance to participate in another one if they want to and someone is willing to run it, you might get enough participation to make it worthwhile, but i don't think it would be a good one for newbies and non-aces.

[762_XC]

Well, that's your opinion.

It depends on what you look for in a campaign.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

PBR was awesome in the GZ league.  Those three-on-three fights were the best SFC combats I've ever played, in any form of the game.  If PBR can be adapted to work in the D2 format I would certainly enjoy it.

To borrow an idea from Squadron Commander, if you want to make it really simple, just give all ships a prefix of c, l, or s. (For command, line, or support.)  Solo with only one ship, you fly what you want.  If you have a wingman or multiple ships, however, only one "c" and only one "s" is allowed in your group.  If multiple versions of these get accidentally drafted together, someone just has to leave.

In this scheme, I'd consider all true carriers to be "c" ships.    Many Hydran hybrids, however, would be "l".   

-S'Cipio

[el-Karnak]

Scripts can be modified to read-in the prefixes of the ship names of the players involved in a PvP fight. If the proper OOB is not set up then the mission can simply end right away in a draw explaining that the proper OOB was not setup for the mission (ie. too many specialist ships on one side, no line ships when needed, etc.).

Only if the proper configs. of line ships were valid for both sides would the mission continue in a PvP scenario.  No checks would be done in a PvAI mission.

Just a spontaneous idea that came to me while reading this thread.

  OR

[GDA-Agave]

Someone asked about the rules set for the PBR league.   I might have a copy at home.  I'll check and get back to you.

I liked the PBR fleet restrictions.   If they could be adopted for fleets in our dyna servers that would be great.  Just the 3 categories of command, line, and support(speciality) I think would be necessary.   Any fleets, whether mixed or of only one race, would have to meet this requirement to run missions together.   In instances where allies are drafted and the fleet does not match requirements, one player should agree to fly out of mission. (players' choice)   This rule would have to be in effect for all missions, live or AI, so that good flipping tandoms were not used.   Another pilot's honor system item.

Each and every race would have to be looked at and come to a majority decision or what would be a command, line, or support ship.   Certain races would prove easier, i.e. Gorn, Romulans, Lyrans, but other like the ISC, Hydrans, Feds would prove a little more difficult.   Those lists should be posted on the forums here so that general feedback could be obtained from the WHOLE community.  Yes, it would be a pain, but a needed step, IMHO.


As for the strict OOB rules used in the General War servers, I whole-heartedly agree with Chuut here.   I did not like the system.  It opens the door to favoritism and bias when ship are being given out.   Sure, there were some good examples of newer, non-ace players being given these ships, but it usually only occurred under strict restrictions of usuage by the ace or elder players.  Sure the OIC may prove to make the ship switches easier, but it was never the bookkeeping aspect of the OOB that turned my off on it.  It was the elements of "exclusiveness" that turned me off.   Unless some very serious improvements are made to any OOB system in the future, I would probably not fly any server with them again.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Scripts can be modified to read-in the prefixes of the ship names of the players involved in a PvP fight. If the proper OOB is not set up then the mission can simply end right away in a draw explaining that the proper OOB was not setup for the mission (ie. too many specialist ships on one side, no line ships when needed, etc.).

Only if the proper configs. of line ships were valid for both sides would the mission continue in a PvP scenario.  No checks would be done in a PvAI mission.

Just a spontaneous idea that came to me while reading this thread.

  OR

Now that's a very interesting idea.   Any chance it could be made to work only on players with multiple ships?   I'm willing to let drafted players leave the map to fix the mix, since you never know whom you may draft.   Better to have one player leave than to lose the whole mission.

-S'Cipio

[FPF-DieHard]

Here is what I'm thinking will work for D2 PBR.   This will be simple enough to organize on the flront line, should not be too restrictive, and should accomplish something similar to the Cheese reduction found in Jahkle's PBR setup.

-  Catpital ships cannot fleet together.   This included but is not limited to DNs, BCHs, BBs, and fast cruisers (gotta do this after the abuse on SGO6)
- In a 3 ship fleet, one ship MUst be vannilla Line (non-command). 
- Only 1 PPD equiped ship in a Fleet (this will start flames    )

Carriers: (this assumes the fighter/PF compliments we are using in the current test setup)

- 2 ship Fleet:  A Carrier MUST wing with an escort of the same race
- 3 Ship Fleet:  first wing MUST be an Escort of the same Race. second wing can be an Escort OR an line (non-command) ship of the same/Allied Race.

[Wraith 413]

 In the PBR rule set, the number of PPD's were restricted also, based on hull type, although in D2 limiting PPD to one ship would probably work. Any thoughts on how to integrate specialty ships into a fleet? ( Droners, maulers.......)   

[FPF-DieHard]

In the PBR rule set, the number of PPD's were restricted also, based on hull type, although in D2 limiting PPD to one ship would probably work.

Yeah, it's gotta be kept simple.

Any thoughts on how to integrate specialty ships into a fleet? ( Droners, maulers.......)   

I don't find 2 D5Ds and D5K too OTT, do you?     The 3rd ship being forced to be Line (non-command) makes things reasoanble

Yeah, to specials can wing togehther but I don't think that is too big of a deal.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

- 2 ship Fleet:  A Carrier MUST wing with an escort of the same race

Not saying this is a wrong approach or anything, but just curious why an escort of an allied race wouldn't do?  Certain pilots of lesser played races might like more opportunity to fly a carrier with a wing.

[FPF-DieHard]

- 2 ship Fleet:  A Carrier MUST wing with an escort of the same race

Not saying this is a wrong approach or anything, but just curious why an escort of an allied race wouldn't do?  Certain pilots of lesser played races might like more opportunity to fly a carrier with a wing.

A good point, but with the race swapping that we see these days does that really matter?  I'm the ultimate Federation Race-whore who racked up 100K in Gorn on the last server. 

There are less cheese combos with the first escort being of the same race than there are with it being allied.

PS I forgot to mention X-tech, I post my idea on that later after fleshing it out a bit more

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

A good point, but with the race swapping that we see these days does that really matter?

Actually it might as some players may be reluctant to switch into an escort of a race that was unfamiliar to them.  You are alreeady asking that the wingman switch to an escort, add the reqirement that it be a particular races escort and it might cut into the willingness.  Additionally, there is no guarentee that a particular race's escorts will be in the shipyard at any given time, if allied races escorts are acceptable you increase the chances of one being available.

[Hexx]

A good point, but with the race swapping that we see these days does that really matter?

Actually it might as some players may be reluctant to switch into an escort of a race that was unfamiliar to them. 

You'd do it if I told you to.

Seriously don't think this is an issue. You'll have 10 players decide to start flying carriers and 11 stop when they get tired of stupid fighter tricks.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You'd do it if I told you to.

No I'd do it if you paid me enough 

[Julin Eurthyr]

- Only 1 PPD equiped ship in a Fleet (this will start flames    )

Not necessarily.  Knowing that, in PBR, you have hours / days to come up with a legal fleet, semi-elaborate rules are useful.  In D2, you have all of 30 seconds from the time the enemy fleet enters scanning range till you engage to confirm the legality of the opposition.  The rule needs to be very simplistic to make it easy to check the legality in that 30 second window.

I have no problem cutting back on the D2 PPD's, especially if we're going to a low-no cheese environment that PBR (version of SFB S8.0) grants.  The only exception I'd ask for is the ability to fly 2 1xPPD ships in a 3 ship fleet, being either a CA / CM or 2x CM combination.  I'd appreciate a 2xCA edition in the rule, but as long as the CATY/CATZ (pure torpedo CA) is common enough to be a viable CA alternative that should allow the ISC to have 3x heavy cruiser fleets without needing 2x - 3x PPD ships.

This allows more ISC pilots the ability to fly ships with ISC-weaponry and be able to instantaneously respond to an issue by ad-hoc fleeting, instead of having the ISC constantly buying pure plasma boats to fleet then buying PPD ships for solo work...

To make it simple, write the rule(s) like this:
The ISC must fly at least 1 "pure plasma" (no PPD) ship in any fleet. <- more for the 2 ship fleets
The ISC cannot fly more than 2 PPDs in any given fleet, unless the only PPD ship in that fleet naturally carries more than 2 PPDs (which is only the DN / BB anyway.)  The ISC also cannot field 2 PPD-equipped CAs in any given fleet.

[Lepton]

I am looking forward to the next server that includes the ISC.  I have never flown them in a campaign and I intend to do that at my next opportunity, if only to see what all the wubbub is.

[KBF-Crim]

PBR was awesome in the GZ league.  Those three-on-three fights were the best SFC combats I've ever played, in any form of the game.  If PBR can be adapted to work in the D2 format I would certainly enjoy it.

To borrow an idea from Squadron Commander, if you want to make it really simple, just give all ships a prefix of c, l, or s. (For command, line, or support.)  Solo with only one ship, you fly what you want.  If you have a wingman or multiple ships, however, only one "c" and only one "s" is allowed in your group.  If multiple versions of these get accidentally drafted together, someone just has to leave.

In this scheme, I'd consider all true carriers to be "c" ships.    Many Hydran hybrids, however, would be "l".   

-S'Cipio

Right on!

[KBF-Crim]

A good point, but with the race swapping that we see these days does that really matter?

Actually it might as some players may be reluctant to switch into an escort of a race that was unfamiliar to them. 

You'd do it if I told you to.

Seriously don't think this is an issue. You'll have 10 players decide to start flying carriers and 11 stop when they get tired of stupid fighter tricks.

Some of us fly carriers.....and actually like them...stupid fighters and all...

[FPF-DieHard]

- Only 1 PPD equiped ship in a Fleet (this will start flames    )

Not necessarily.  Knowing that, in PBR, you have hours / days to come up with a legal fleet, semi-elaborate rules are useful.  In D2, you have all of 30 seconds from the time the enemy fleet enters scanning range till you engage to confirm the legality of the opposition.  The rule needs to be very simplistic to make it easy to check the legality in that 30 second window.

I have no problem cutting back on the D2 PPD's, especially if we're going to a low-no cheese environment that PBR (version of SFB S8.0) grants.  The only exception I'd ask for is the ability to fly 2 1xPPD ships in a 3 ship fleet, being either a CA / CM or 2x CM combination.  I'd appreciate a 2xCA edition in the rule, but as long as the CATY/CATZ (pure torpedo CA) is common enough to be a viable CA alternative that should allow the ISC to have 3x heavy cruiser fleets without needing 2x - 3x PPD ships.

This allows more ISC pilots the ability to fly ships with ISC-weaponry and be able to instantaneously respond to an issue by ad-hoc fleeting, instead of having the ISC constantly buying pure plasma boats to fleet then buying PPD ships for solo work...

To make it simple, write the rule(s) like this:
The ISC must fly at least 1 "pure plasma" (no PPD) ship in any fleet. <- more for the 2 ship fleets
The ISC cannot fly more than 2 PPDs in any given fleet, unless the only PPD ship in that fleet naturally carries more than 2 PPDs (which is only the DN / BB anyway.)  The ISC also cannot field 2 PPD-equipped CAs in any given fleet.

No 

The point is to minimize the cheesy combos and 1 PPD ship per fleet of 3 does this.

[Dfly]

My Recommendation for PPD ruling:

No ISC fleet(2 ship) can have more than 2 PPD between them
No ISC fleet(3 ship) can have more than 4 PPD between them

Also, as much as I like the idea that a carrier must have same race escort, I am not too keen on it due to some races(Lyrans in particular) have escorts that suck worse than their carriers, which suck.  The idea that escorts are not always listed when needed can also be an issue that slows down anyone buying a carrier.  Due to this I beleive any race escort can wing with the carrier, mainly to make the escort viable as a time saver.

[FPF-DieHard]

My Recommendation for PPD ruling:

No ISC fleet(2 ship) can have more than 2 PPD between them
No ISC fleet(3 ship) can have more than 4 PPD between them

Does this meen they can never fly a DN ever? 

I disagree, even when I flew ISC in PBR.  With only 1 PPD-Ship per fleet, ISC still can put togehter some viscious legal combinations.  The CCZ/CLZ/CLZ is an evil combo, a C7/DWL/D5W or BCG/CB/NCA combo would be hard pressed to beat this especiually with the new pack of ED missions where cornoring your opponent is no longer a option.   

Keepin in mind, the CLZ also get Mechlinks so the ISC would be the only race to be able to filed 6 Casual PFs in a fleet.  They are by no means screwed with these fleeting rules.

[Dfly]

I guess I was thinking within the heavy ships limits, and did not add in capital ships etc.

I can see why you now want 1 ship only for PPD.  And I agree, it certainly does not hurt their race.

[Julin Eurthyr]

- Only 1 PPD equiped ship in a Fleet (this will start flames    )

Not necessarily.  Knowing that, in PBR, you have hours / days to come up with a legal fleet, semi-elaborate rules are useful.  In D2, you have all of 30 seconds from the time the enemy fleet enters scanning range till you engage to confirm the legality of the opposition.  The rule needs to be very simplistic to make it easy to check the legality in that 30 second window.

I have no problem cutting back on the D2 PPD's, especially if we're going to a low-no cheese environment that PBR (version of SFB S8.0) grants.  The only exception I'd ask for is the ability to fly 2 1xPPD ships in a 3 ship fleet, being either a CA / CM or 2x CM combination.  I'd appreciate a 2xCA edition in the rule, but as long as the CATY/CATZ (pure torpedo CA) is common enough to be a viable CA alternative that should allow the ISC to have 3x heavy cruiser fleets without needing 2x - 3x PPD ships.

This allows more ISC pilots the ability to fly ships with ISC-weaponry and be able to instantaneously respond to an issue by ad-hoc fleeting, instead of having the ISC constantly buying pure plasma boats to fleet then buying PPD ships for solo work...

To make it simple, write the rule(s) like this:
The ISC must fly at least 1 "pure plasma" (no PPD) ship in any fleet. <- more for the 2 ship fleets
The ISC cannot fly more than 2 PPDs in any given fleet, unless the only PPD ship in that fleet naturally carries more than 2 PPDs (which is only the DN / BB anyway.)  The ISC also cannot field 2 PPD-equipped CAs in any given fleet.

No 

The point is to minimize the cheesy combos and 1 PPD ship per fleet of 3 does this.

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

When are these grand plans to get the UI's updated gonna happen, I'm starting to really want a brighter-red Klink interface... 

[FPF-DieHard]

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

You might actually learn how to fly

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

Bullsh*t, you can get enough to buy a BCH is a day of moderate playing.  on a 2-3 week server, "I can't afford it" is BS.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Keepin in mind, the CLZ also get Mechlinks so the ISC would be the only race to be able to filed 6 Casual PFs in a fleet.  They are by no means screwed with these fleeting rules.

To me, this is not a viable long-term solution.  6xPFs carry enough plasma to rip apart a BB, and completely shred a BCH in one pass.  I give 2 servers, maximum, before the ISC exclusive ability to do this goes the way of the Caveat III, a unit with proven, demonstrated capacity to do just what the 6xPFs can do.

Therefore, for the long term, the ISC needs to begin contemplating non-metal fleets that would be legal without the PFs.  As the ISC can legally build fleets around the CS, that will become the "default" PPD ship, granting us 2xPPDs in every engagement.

Given the current common shiplist, the CS would also be the largest fieldable ship in said fleets, as there are only 2 non-metal ships larger than the CS, specifically the CM / CA, both of which are excluded due to the 1 PPD they carry.

Seeing these limitations beforehand, I am requesting the rule allow the option of fielding, in a larger than 3xCL non-metal fleet, as many PPDs (no more) than the CS carries.  My proposal specifically spells out that limit, and also prohibits the fielding of (effectively) 2xCCH level vessels (the no 2xCA bit).  Granted, this larger fleet may be capable of repeatedly defeating competing BCH-inclusive "metal" fleets, but having at least 1-2 non-metal fleets that can take down metal is a good thing in my book to help encourage the use of non-metal ships.

Now, onto the "personal" stuff:

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

You might actually learn how to fly

And I thought the fact that I handled, at least semi-competently, Fed, Klink, Rommie & Hydran ships on various servers when I was able to proves that I do have at least some competence in "flying", even if I choose to rely on the "crutch" of the "uber" ISC when possible...

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

Bullsh*t, you can get enough to buy a BCH is a day of moderate playing.  on a 2-3 week server, "I can't afford it" is BS.

To the "average" casual player, you're right.  They can afford a BCH or 2, fairly regularly.

That's not me.  This, is me:

Unlike you, I have much more responsabilities, and a lot less guarantees.  These responsabilities prevent me from getting even a 1 hour sitting where I can be 100% assured of no interruptions.  Since I can't guarantee myself that I'll be able to finish a me vs AI battle without having to drop everything and deal with my responsabilities, I will not torture a fellow player who's counting on me to be there and me having to disappear.  Therefore, I will not serve as a wingman, except in extremely rare cases (often late at night), where I might get the chance to do so.

Then, with current mission difficulties, and the already accepted responses of "get a wing" or "suffer" as options to deal with them, I find myself frequently on the "suffer" side of the line.  While it takes me 3x as long to complete a mission, and I spend 1/2 to 3/4 the PP take on repairs / supplies, I'm still advancing, right?  Take this slow advancement, combine it with limited play time, and I'm lucky to make it halfway to Commodore.  If I get lucky on enough missions with minor damage, I, too, can (finally) afford that BCH.

Oh wait.  It's a restricted "metal" ship.  For the good of the team, who should posess that metal ship, the pilot who, casual or not, can guarantee the team that he can wing with it for even an hour a day, or the pilot who can, when the stars are in proper alignment and all that other super-rare jazz, might be able to run 1 or 2 missions with a wing.  Hence my "nor use it freely" comment after my inability to really afford one.

Team, fairness to my fellows, and my own unique set of circumstances, usually find me out of the BCH race.  Now, you're telling me that if, on the spur of the moment I can actually wing with someone for at least a couple of missions, I either limit the team to 1xPPD if I have a CA, or I'm stuck in the CS / CL on down.  Oh, I do have the option of buying the right ship, but that delays my ability to wing properly, and, there's a good chance by the time I get my new ship I won't be able to wing due to the aforementioned responsabilities.  Hence my "no CA for me" spiel, if I want to maintain the option of me being able to wing on a moment's notice and still support the team by allowing us to have a 2xPPD ship, I need to be in a pure plasma boat.

Last I checked, it was the PPD that actually made the ISC the ISC, and not a watered down Gorn.  For the plasma races, their tricks are:
Rommies - cloak
Gorn - super-tough hull & wide arcing phasers
ISC - PPD

Hence my wanna-be Gorn comment.  No 1-PPD ship to allow me the option to wing on a moment's notice on the off chance I can actually do so, and no extra hull to support my purely-plasma armed ship when I'm flying solo.

I wonder how many of us, either still remaining or already departed, are in the same set of circumstances as me.  While I do not insist that every decision be made around my set of circumstances, I do hope that I can influence decisions to still allow me as much fun in this game as I can eek out of it while still being fair to the entire community.  Sadly, decisions and stances like this tell me that I'm not welcome here unless I can meet certain sets of RL requirements, requirements that I will never be able to do for at least 3 more years, if I'm lucky.  Given the conditions of at least 2 of my family members, I might be in a position that I will never be able to fully commit even an hour a night for a 2 week stretch for the remainder of my natural life without these responsabilities being around to call me out of the game.

[el-Karnak]

I guess I was thinking within the heavy ships limits, and did not add in capital ships etc.

I can see why you now want 1 ship only for PPD.  And I agree, it certainly does not hurt their race.

Agreed. 1 PPD ship per fleet combo will work.

[Riskyllama]

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

You might actually learn how to fly

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

Bullsh*t, you can get enough to buy a BCH is a day of moderate playing.  on a 2-3 week server, "I can't afford it" is BS.

I couldnt afford a BCH on SGO6...so um yeah...about that

[FPF-DieHard]

Great.  What's the sence of playing anymore, if I'm gonna be a wanna-be gorn.

You might actually learn how to fly

I can't afford the CCZ, nor use it freely cause it's a "metal" ship BCH.
I can't really fly the CA anymore, cause if we want 2 PPDs in a non-metal fleet, we have to pick the CS.  Rest of us need CAT's / CLs on down...

Bullsh*t, you can get enough to buy a BCH is a day of moderate playing.  on a 2-3 week server, "I can't afford it" is BS.

I couldnt afford a BCH on SGO6...so um yeah...about that

You played like 3 seconds on SGO6

[Riskyllama]

You played like 3 seconds on SGO6

yeah right..look at the kills sheet, i was there plenty

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

He is right he was there a fair amount although he missed a good deal of time in the middle.

However Risky, you did split your time among just about every race and you died a bit, both of those factors inhibited you from getting the cash for a BCH.  Had you either died less or focused on one race you would have had the PP to afford one given your playing time.