Topic: Best idea ever to promote line ship use

[FPF-DieHard]

People will not fly an NCA in 2280 no matter how much you bribe them.

XP Partial-X refits?   

[Lepton]

X-ships are crap.  I know that people seem to like them and they were created by the efforts of those with good intentions, but I'd really prefer never to see them again.

[Hexx]

You don't think that people might not choose to fly a ship that is exempt from the disengagement rule and cannot be forced out of the hex unless it is engaged by a ship that is an appropriate match.  You are also forgetting all the hex flippers who might be glad to fly a ship that is exempt from the disengagement rule/hex ban.  You'd have to tell me what the significance of 2280 is for I haven't a clue.

I'd say if you do allow CCs you might as well not do it at all ...

Here's (one of the) problems again
line ships that are an "appropriate" match.
Hydran DG (stock) is going to completely and utterly own a D7 (stock)
Fed CA will do teh same thing
Kzin stock CA's while probably being more equal to the D7 have 4 drone racks,which mean faster mission times.
So there (on a traditonal map) we have 3 races bordering the Klingons who will likely be able to overrun
the empire from 2263-68(ish) now some things change when the D5K comes out (69), but you've still given
5 days of Alliance superiority.

Now (of course) it depends on what year the server starts in etc, but (again) you'll find it repeated.
The non CC's of the races really aren't all that well balanced.
 

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

H-DG does not pwn a K-D7 until the + refit comes out.

Until then, it is phG's are pointed RA only.  So the Ph2's in front have to be saved for drones. It is basicly 4 HB's vs the entire D7....

[762_XC]

You'll just have to wait until the D7B comes out in 2265 and pwns all that other early era crap.

Anyway, since when can't a D7 beat a CA?

[Lepton]

I don't think there is going to be a happy balance no matter where one decides to cut off the level of a line ship.  I think it is less important that for a period of time one race has some dominance over another.  The question is more to my mind: do you think it is a decent suggestion that I have made?  So far I see meager support.  The validity of the idea does not rest on any equivalency amongst the top level line ships.  It rests more with whether players will be incentived enough to fly them.  Tool thinks not to some degree.  I disagree.  As soon as a few people hop into line ships, the other side will be nearly obligated to do so.  That's the beauty of the rules as I have proposed them.  You have to get into a line ship to bump the line ship players out of the hex.  Now perhaps no one will fly them, then the point is moot but I think these ships will represent a tactical and strategic opportunity.  I have not seen anyone address this last point.  Do you think line ships in this proposal would be a good tactical and strategic option?

[Dfly]

My money would be on the Fed CA over the D7, unless a very skilled Klink pilot is also present.  Again, if the Fed pilot messes up, the D7 could win.  

[Dfly]

I don't think there is going to be a happy balance no matter where one decides to cut off the level of a line ship.  I think it is less important that for a period of time one race has some dominance over another.  The question is more to my mind: do you think it is a decent suggestion that I have made?  So far I see meager support.  The validity of the idea does not rest on any equivalency amongst the top level line ships.  It rests more with whether players will be incentived enough to fly them.  Tool thinks not to some degree.  I disagree.  As soon as a few people hop into line ships, the other side will be nearly obligated to do so.  That's the beauty of the rules as I have proposed them.  You have to get into a line ship to bump the line ship players out of the hex.  Now perhaps no one will fly them, then the point is moot but I think these ships will represent a tactical and strategic opportunity.  I have not seen anyone address this last point.  Do you think line ships in this proposal would be a good tactical and strategic option?

I think the only way to know is to have a server with them.  Perhaps a 1 week server?  To test this out.  I can see it going 1 of 2 ways:

1- The PvPer decides line ships are fun, even if they dont count for kills unless they kill a non-line ship(truly dont expect this to happen)
2- The PvPer figures it is not worth his troubles and gets the biggest baddest ship he can anyway, and runs missions, or ties up the line ships in battles so the flippers can flip while the line ships are tied up trying to kill a ship that counts for points. (most likely going to happen).

There may be other ways to have the outcome, but until it is actually tested, who knows.

BTW Lepton, I do beleive your idea is valid, it is the finalizing of it that may be a pain.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

It seems the only resistance to this scheme is the definition of a line ship which I think is relatively immaterial.  Let me cover a couple of scenarios that may help frame the issues.  The parameters are including CCs and keeping the current fleeting rules or abandoning them.

CCs in/current fleeting rules:
3 CCs encounter a capital ship escorted by two line ships.  The line ship have a special advantage here as the 3 CCs could work to attempt to destroy or injure the cap ship thereby forcing him to disengage and if they fail and are forced to disengage it's not a big deal as the presence of the non-line ship removes the disengagement rule/hex ban for the 3 CCs.

CCs in/no fleeting rules:
3 CCs encounter a heavy metal fleet that way outclasses them.  Again if the CCs could manage to cripple or destroy one of the cap ships, this would be a great tactical and strategic victory.  The CCs could then disengage without being driven out of the hex.

CCs out/current fleeting rules:
Same conditions as above example.  Here the 3 CAs would be damn lucky I think to inflict significant damage or destroy the cap ship.  If they do, more power to them but I think it unlikely.  Again, the 3 CAs could disengage at any time with no penalty other than the DV shift.

CCs out/no fleeting rule:
Same as above example with 3 cap ships.  Now the 3 CAs are likely vastly outclassed.  Again, if they could pull off a coup and hurt or destroy one of the cap ships, they are really doing something great and could just leave the map giving up the DV shift but scoring a tactical and strategica victory.  Of course the 3 CAs would not be banned from the hex.


So I think what we are looking at is basically, if we allow CCs in the definition of line ships, setting up a system in which the top line ships could compete well in PvP and get the benefits of exemption from hex bans.  I'd suggest that some would consider this a bit too much of an advantage and I don't think this is exactly what I intend.

If we leave CCs out of the line ships, we are creating something like two levels of playing this game on a server, the line ships level that tops out at the CA level and the cap ship level.  You may be surprised to learn that this is my preferred alternative as I see the system as in a sense protecting those players in line ships from the pressures of cap ship engagements while preserving the legitimacy of the capital ships' role in being big and scary.

If you can put together a 3 CC fleet that can challenge a cap ship and its escorts, then one wonders why they, the CCs, should need the protection of the hex ban exemption.  In my opinion, they do not need that exemption.  As well, many a player already chooses a CC to fly when not in a cap ship, so exempting CCs from the hex ban will do little to change the make up of the ships we see used on a server with this rule set in place.  I think we are trying to get people in different kind of ships and make them a viable option rather than benefit something that players already are doing.

I also see limiting line ships to the CA level as a good mechanism for the new players to get their feet wet in PvP and not be challenged by crazy scary ships in a battle that counts.  If you want to push a newbie out of a hex, you are going to have come down to his level so to speak and show him how it is done.  And if you can't do that, you aren't as good as you think you are.  This is the leveling of the playing field in at least one area that I would like to see.

Pretty much agree with your conclusions Lepton.  Nice presentation.

[Julin Eurthyr]

BCH's did NOT replace CC's. No race could build more than one a year.

BCHs were built in place of Dreads, not CCs. 

From ancient research into ISC "ship classes":

Each race maintains 4 slipways, or shipyards designed to produce a specific hull.  To be generic about it, they were all FF, DD, CA, DN sizes.  Granted, this is not an exact science (Mirak preferred to build CLs in their DD slipway, while the Feds skipped building CLs altogether and the Klinks used their CA lines to build their D6 CLs...) but it works for purpose of this presentation.

As the General War progressed, each race noticed that the FFs were dying way too quickly, and they all wanted more CAs then ever.  So, the designers went to work, beefing up the ships produced in the FF line and making a near-cruiser equivalent, thus the "war" craft were born.

The DW was designed to be built in the FF slipway, and the CW (often nearly equal to the early-era CA) was designed for the DD slipway.  That left the CA slipway to build CCs, CBs and BCHs to command these new designs.  And, of course, the usual variant-heaven went to work, Command, Drone, Scout, Carrier, Pac-Man, etc., variants of all the new craft were pencilled together...

The ISC ships are designed / classified to fight what the appropriate shipyard was producing at the time of the ISC's introduction.  Hence, the I-FFZ was designed to counter what was left of FFs at the time (FFB / F6 / Z-DF with appropriate fast drone upgrades actually paid for), I-DDZ vs DW, I-CLZ vs CW, I-CAZ vs CB, I-CCZ vs BCH.
If you pay attention, you'll notice that the Rommie Hawks are built on these same lines - Skyhawks are DWs, Sparrowhawks are CWs, Firehawks CAs, Nova/Regal hawks are CBs / mini BCHs, and the Killerhawk is a pocket-dread, to counter the lack of a "true" Hawk-BCH...  In both cases of late-war introduction of a line, the BPV / classifications of the "new" lines fall into the appropriate ranges of everyone else's late era ships, not the early era ships.

[bca11]

How did you guys learn which ship comes out when and what ship is its counter?

Is there a list somewhere?

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

How did you guys learn which ship comes out when and what ship is its counter?

Is there a list somewhere?

Look on the ship list for YFA (year first available) and add it to 2260 (I think) and that gives you the year it comes out.

As for what ship is its counter... experience and looking at BPV's....

[Hexx]

YFA 0 in the shiplist is 2263.
add/subtract from that
(so YFA 17 is 2280 etc)

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I've been looking over the F&E Master SITs for each race and have come upon the idea that a first cut at line ships should be the base hulls from which conversions can be made.   Here is the list:

Fed: CA, CL, DW, DD, FF, NCL, NCA, HDW
Kilnk: D7, D6, D5, D5W, F5, FW, HDW
Rom: FH, K7R, KR, WE, BH, SP, K5, K4, SK, SEH, SN, HDW
Gorn: BC, BD, CL, CM, DD, HD, HDW
Hydran: CHY, CU, DG, DWF, DWH, HN, IRQ, KN, LN, MHK, RN, HDW
ISC: CA, CL, FF, DD, HDW
Kzin: CL, CM, DD, DW, FF, NCA, CM, HDW, BC
Lyran: CA, CL, CW, DD, DW, FF, NCA, HDW

That is a rough first cut with, I'd say the inclusion of the standard + or R refits of those that have them.  We can add from this base list those that we think are appropriate but I would say this is the base to start from.  I am fine with keeping or axing the HDW.  Makes no difference to me.

All comments and suggestions welcome.

That's a great list to start with, and from an F&E standpoint it is almost complete.  Just be sure to add the Gorn FF.

You'll also need to add the non-command upgrades to each ship.  F&E ignores all of these as they make the generalization that all upgrades happen at the same "strategic rate" and thus the balance of power between the CAs etc. is not changed.  (and thus players don't have to pick up all their counters several times during the game and replace them all with new counters that are 1 combat point better on both sides of every border.)

You might consider tossing the Romulans a bone with the KE.  It is, technically, a command cruiser.   However that's because it was a late conversion of the WE.   The first ones built were used as command ships for squadrons of 1st gen Romulan ships, to ease logistics problems caused by mixing in 3rd gen command ships, and thus it became known as a command cruiser.   However, as more and more WE's were converted, it became a general-purpose line cruiser.  I think it is a logical addiiton to the list.

However, I'd only make the addition if there were no other "logical additions".    If it opens the door for a whole slew of other exceptions then it's best to leave it out.    It's not that important a ship in the Romulan list; just an interesting one.

-S'Cipio

[GDA-S'Cipio]

If you don't allow CC's you might as well not bother with this. People will not fly an NCA in 2280 no matter how much you bribe them.

<shrug>  If they don't want to, they don't have to.   But if I beat them then they have to be gone for a while.  How long will vary from campaign to campaign, but I'd suggest it be long enough to sting.

People will fly the ships that give them the edge they are looking for.   This scheme gives them options.   If they feel it is important to stay in an area for a while, they will choose the ships that let them do so.

-S'Cipio