Topic: Big maps and SFB style disengagement rules?

[NuclearWessels]

That's pretty cool.

If y'all come to a consensus then I'll put in the same warp disengagement specs. in the EEK missions.

Coolness!!!

dave

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You can hold a Tractor AND fire drones while at warp, any way ti disble this?

OMFG!  DEATH DRAG FROM HELL!!!!


 


Seriously this may not be a good thing, but I'd love to try it a few times in testing 

[Lepton]

You'll forgive me for not pulling out my SFB stuff, but why not just have a disengage button?  It could be abused for quick get-aways but this tac warping could also be abused by running away, repairing, and coming back.  People did this a bit in SFC3.

[NuclearWessels]

You'll forgive me for not pulling out my SFB stuff, but why not just have a disengage button?  It could be abused for quick get-aways but this tac warping could also be abused by running away, repairing, and coming back.  People did this a bit in SFC3.

A disengage button might indeed turn out to be the better way to go, but it's very hard to stop dave from playing with toys when he learns something new 

Seriously, this might all turn out to belong in the "cute, but doesn't work out" bucket, but there might be some fun experimentation in the meanwhile    Whatever combination of bits folks pick up on, if any, I'm happy to implement.

dave

[NuclearWessels]

Anyway we can get a "Skirmish" mission to screw around with that works under these paramaeters?

Done (although I haven't tested the skirmish version much).

It's added to the pack and will show up in the skirmish menu as something like "ED TacWarp Skirmish" (the script itself is Ski_EDFree4AllWarp.scr)

http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe


dave

[el-Karnak]

You'll forgive me for not pulling out my SFB stuff, but why not just have a disengage button?  It could be abused for quick get-aways but this tac warping could also be abused by running away, repairing, and coming back.  People did this a bit in SFC3.

A disengage button might indeed turn out to be the better way to go, but it's very hard to stop dave from playing with toys when he learns something new 

Seriously, this might all turn out to belong in the "cute, but doesn't work out" bucket, but there might be some fun experimentation in the meanwhile    Whatever combination of bits folks pick up on, if any, I'm happy to implement.

dave

I think that in SFB that when you disengage then the game is over. Maybe, a disengage button is the way to go?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Having a disengage button is a nice addition, I do worry about potential exploits if warping is allowed in combat.  Warp speed death drags, warp speeding to jump on top of someone then dumping your ready to fire fighters at point blank range, allowing a ship moving faster than a distant ship to instantly close and stay on top of the enemy that normally would not have allowed this but with no warning time is now susceptible to the tactic, using warp to escape from a well laid pattern od converging drones or converging fighters/pfs on a border or against an obstacle, warping in to drop a Nuke Space mine,  warping while cloaked, tracoring slower fighters/pfs and warping them into range, warping with that big asteroid in a tractor, maulers warping in to get a shot, etc.

[Lepton]

Don't know if this is really an issue but with the Skirmish mission I believe on some occasions my enemy may have spawned at a good distance from me such that I could never find him.  Also I noted that at warp 4/yellow alert I was able to activate and charge a phaser and fire it without voiding the warp 4 status.  This was not true of photons.  Any effort to bring them online resulted in a red alert and back to speed 27.

[CaptJosh]

I can already tell you a potential exploit. A weapon is automatically onlined when it gets repaired. If you have a damaged torpedo launcher, and you finish repairing it while at condition green, it starts loading, and no loss of condition green status.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

From trying one mission.... on yellow alert, you can drop SP's and launch drones.  Phasers go off line & start to come back on line as soon as you hit red alert again.

Phaser capcitor does not empty though... so you got power for other things.

It can definately get you away from a boat load of drones though

[Dizzy]

After testing this, I think a 30 second warm up with 75%+ engines at GREEN alert may be the ideal way to warp off the map. Too many advantages for non plasma races on yellow alert.

On yellow alert, tractors have to be off, the shuttle bay cant work... All the exploits have to be nailed shut.

[NuclearWessels]

Devious Bastard Points for Chuut and CaptJosh 

I'll put together another version soonly where it's simply a disengage button.

As for a warp-in-combat version, I'll see what I can do about turning off potential weaponry/arming exploits, but the issues Chuut raises makes it look kinda shaky except as a novelty/specialty feature.  Keep it comin' though - I'm happy to code it up however you folks see fit!

dave

Having a disengage button is a nice addition, I do worry about potential exploits if warping is allowed in combat.  Warp speed death drags, warp speeding to jump on top of someone then dumping your ready to fire fighters at point blank range, allowing a ship moving faster than a distant ship to instantly close and stay on top of the enemy that normally would not have allowed this but with no warning time is now susceptible to the tactic, using warp to escape from a well laid pattern od converging drones or converging fighters/pfs on a border or against an obstacle, warping in to drop a Nuke Space mine,  warping while cloaked, tracoring slower fighters/pfs and warping them into range, warping with that big asteroid in a tractor, maulers warping in to get a shot, etc.

I can already tell you a potential exploit. A weapon is automatically onlined when it gets repaired. If you have a damaged torpedo launcher, and you finish repairing it while at condition green, it starts loading, and no loss of condition green status.

[Hexx]

Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to fire ESG's at yellow alert 

Just another sign of the ever obvious anti-Lyran bias held by the creators.

Spd 300 ESG slash attacks would have been cool 

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

LOL... another thing with the tractor exploit... spd 125+ DNH's.... Get your wing man to tow you.... he hits spd 28, goes yellow alert, then warps you both  up to the enemy and to do a passing shot.... Good luck on timing... and you can warp past the enemy to reload...

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

LOL... another thing with the tractor exploit... spd 125+ DNH's.... Get your wing man to tow you.... he hits spd 28, goes yellow alert, then warps you both  up to the enemy and to do a passing shot.... Good luck on timing... and you can warp past the enemy to reload...

Amateurs, do the same thing with the DNH starting up his own tractor targeting the enmy ship and simply take him along for the ride with you away from any wingman he might have.  If your towing him so fast he likely can power up weapons and a level 5 without difficulty since he doesn't have to worry about sending much power to movement.  If your going to use a cheesy exploit, do it right at least.   

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

I will teach them everything THEY know... but not everything I....

Same on you for divulging secrets....

[el-Karnak]

Devious Bastard Points for Chuut and CaptJosh 

I'll put together another version soonly where it's simply a disengage button.

As for a warp-in-combat version, I'll see what I can do about turning off potential weaponry/arming exploits, but the issues Chuut raises makes it look kinda shaky except as a novelty/specialty feature.  Keep it comin' though - I'm happy to code it up however you folks see fit!

dave

Having a disengage button is a nice addition, I do worry about potential exploits if warping is allowed in combat.  Warp speed death drags, warp speeding to jump on top of someone then dumping your ready to fire fighters at point blank range, allowing a ship moving faster than a distant ship to instantly close and stay on top of the enemy that normally would not have allowed this but with no warning time is now susceptible to the tactic, using warp to escape from a well laid pattern od converging drones or converging fighters/pfs on a border or against an obstacle, warping in to drop a Nuke Space mine,  warping while cloaked, tracoring slower fighters/pfs and warping them into range, warping with that big asteroid in a tractor, maulers warping in to get a shot, etc.

I can already tell you a potential exploit. A weapon is automatically onlined when it gets repaired. If you have a damaged torpedo launcher, and you finish repairing it while at condition green, it starts loading, and no loss of condition green status.

I am thinking that in SFCOP that the sole purpose of the warp feature for all races except Andros is to end the mission just like crossing the red-line "engages warp drive" to end the mission. SFC stance is that all combat is done at sub-light speed so they conviently use the warp feature to end the mission. Similar paradigm is used in Star Wars universe and SFC3 games.

Tac. Warp is a feature that is reserved by for SFC3 game and you can make an argument that it's a suitable replacement for the Andro. DisDev. 

I've seen different warp scales used in the Star Trek universe. I think think the canon one used in the Star Trek films is that actual ship speed in the "speed-of-light" multiplier = (warp factor)^(10/3) for warp factors 1 thru 9. From warp 9 thru 10 an asymtotic curve is used.

Warp Factor x c Velocity Equation
Warp 1 1 c 3.0x105 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 2 10.079 c 3.0x106 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 3 38.941 c 1.2x107 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 4 101.59 c 3.0x107 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 5 213.75 c 6.4x107 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 6 392.50 c 1.2x108 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 7 656.13 c 2.0x108 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 8 1,024 c 3.1x108 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 9 1,516.4 c 4.5x108 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 9.2 1,649 c 4.9x108 km/s w3.338
Warp 9.6 1,909 c 5.7x108 km/s w3.34
Warp 9.9 3,053 c 9.2x108 km/s w3.5
Warp 9.9753 6,000 c 1.8x109 km/s w3.7822
Warp 9.99 7,912 c 2.3x109 km/s w3.9
Warp 9.9999 199,516 c 6.0x1010 km/s w5.3
Warp 10.37431 2,962,541 c 8.9x1011 km/s w6.370004

etc.
where c = 3 x 10^8 m/s.

Warp factor 10 was regarded as impossible to reach in the warp domain and you could only approach this limit asymptotically.  The Borg developed trans-warp in order to break through the warp factor 10 barrier.

So, in the game for the non-Andro races you could use the tac. warp to end the mission and you can have the mission scripts end the mission when the tac. warp toggle is hit by virtue of not allowing the player to exit warp drive within the confines of the mission map. This would eliminate any tac. warp exploit concerns because the mission would auto-end when tac. warp is enabled the first time and the ship exits the map; and, there would be no possibility for the non-Andro race ship to exit warp once engaged.

In this manner, we can use the huge maps to eliminate the border crowding problems in PvP but not allow tac. warp feature to be used in the SFCOP universe when it is part of the SFC3 universe expect for SFB documented exceptions like the Andro DisDev.

[Lieutenant_Q]

It gets worse Dave...you can phaser boat at Yellow alert.  Bringing your phaser banks online only brings the ship to Yellow Alert.  They cycle and fire just fine, so a Droner can stay at Yellow alert the whole time. 

[Dizzy]

I suggest a Green Alert feature only where there is a warm up time of 30 secs. Ships engines must be 90% undamaged or ship must attain speed 27. Tractors and shuttle bays need to be off.

Yellow Alert just wont work, Dave.

I read a bit about the disengage button in comms panel? I guess it would do the same thing here.

[GDA-Agave]

Oh, I can't wait to try your mission idea.

From what I have read so far, here are my likes and dislikes

I like:
(1) large mission map, no stupid border line to force your opponent against (although plasma races use this more than most)
(2) random terrain features around the outside of map - VERY COOL - I was going to ask if that was possible, but you beat me to it
(3) warp to disengage only - like you guys have been discussing, set up all the criteria to be met before you can do so
(4) AI warping in to start mission, great idea; I'd say give the live player one full turn (maybe 2) to do his thing and then have the AI warp in to about range 50;  sure it would represent them always "finding" us before we find them, but live players have all the real advantage against AI anyway

Disengagement criteria ideas- 50% of power available; maybe even designate that it must be warp engine power (if possible);   I love the yellow/green alert idea to represent the warp status.  Could you setup yellow alert as the "warp prep" stage, players could switch to yellow alert to see if they could use warp to disengage (criteria is checked here, still max speed 31, 1 or 2 turns), they would have some capabilities with shields and limited weapon options to defend themselves during this phase, and if their ship is ok to warp a message would come up like "Captain, engines check out.  We are ready to engage warp."  They could then hit green alert and disengage by warp off the board.  The actual green alert status (with no shields or weapons) would last about 15 seconds.   Most player would be running at top speed away from their opponents at this point anyway.  (Dizzy doesn't need any more advantages to pad his kills, j/k)

Of course, if they don't pass the criteria in yellow alert status, the message they received could be something more like this, "Captain, warp engines too badly damaged.  No warp available.   Time to turn around and finish off this <so many optional words here>"   (kind of a feisty first officer type)  

Sure, some races do better in yellow alert status than others, I could probably get over that myself but this seems like where this idea would run into heated discussions about equaling our capabilities across all races.

Dislikes:
(1) ability to warp DURING combat;  don't like it, would not like to see it used (and you know it would be used) as a tactical means of getting out of a bad situation;  warp should only be used to enter or leave the combat area, NOT USED during combat.

Just some of my thoughts on this.   GREAT IDEA DAVE!!  NEW FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!