Topic: Big maps and SFB style disengagement rules?

[NuclearWessels]

OK, just screwing around here (blame DH, he got me looking into the tac-warps, which in turn got me thinking about map sizes and disengagement techniques).

Suppose we had MUCH bigger maps, but allowed disengagement by seperation and/or disengagement by acceleration, rather than the Taldren fly-off-the-map-edge approach?

By big maps I'm talking about something that would take an hour or so to cross at speed 31, with players starting out about range 100 from each other in the center of the map.  (If a "big" map currently is 350x350, this would be along the lines of 4000x4000.)

The SFB rules basically say you can disengage by seperation if you're more than distance 50 from your opponent (75 if they have a scout), there are no hostile boarding parties on your ship, and there is no possibility any seeking weapon currently on the board can catch you.

On the other hand, you can disengage by acceleration (jumping to high warp speeds) if you've been travelling at the maximum speed attainable by your ship for at least a full turn, and you still have at least 50% of your engines left.  (The idea being you've revved the beastie up and are ready to jump to a speed that will renders ship-to-ship combat ineffective.)

Both of those could be monitored by the script, and I suppose we could have a dialogue button you click when you want to disengage and have met one criteria or the other.

Of course, there is no reason we'd have to stick precisely with those, so feel free to suggest tweaks.

One other possibility is to actually have the ship jump to a high speed but drop to green alert, giving the enemy a chance to score a last couple of potshots.  (I've played with setting the speeds as high as 500 so far, boy do turn modes suck at that speed!)

Needless to say, any of this would have a rather profound impact on how one plays the game, so it's not something to blindly plunge into, but I'm tempted to try out a couple of scripts just to see what it plays like.

EDIT: we could also use things like the goal indicators to give players a rough idea of where an enemy force was outside sensor range (I can't remember the exact SFB rule off the top of my head, but it was something along the lines of detecting their position to within 5 hexes at up to double the standard sensor range.)

dave

[Lepton]

It's an interesting idea.  I see two problems.  First, people I think like to use the map edges for tactical purposes.  Second, I am always hesitant to rely too heavily on a scripted solution to add a game feature.  It would seem that any and all scripts would need to be modified to include such a feature and this feature would not be present in our scripter's mission packs.  That said, I'd love to see huge maps to remove the artifice of the map edge.  I had no idea such a thing was possible.

[Riskyllama]

What if you tied the tac warp button to a end mission condition so if you tac, it forces a close game? That way you can't tac warp just to avoid drones coming in(the other party gets their shift).

As for those turn modes, is it anything like what you see when you HET back onto the map after crossing to border?

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Wow... 4000X4000 map certainly would change the aspect of the game....

No more worrying about that DN trying to run you in to a corner to either force disengagement or take a wallop....

[FPF-DieHard]

This would be very cool, very "Trek" if you will.   

Make a script or 2 to test out, I'd love to see this.

Warp send you to green alert, Fiendish

"Cheese and chase" will loose some potency

[Hexx]

"Cheese and chase" will loose some potency

Actually 2 ways to take that, but we'll assume you mean "lose".
Although you'd be incorrect, as the basic concept still works, simply a matter of having to chase them farther.

Would the warp be able to ignore terrain? Or is there a chance you'd run smack into something beyond wht you can see?

[Hexx]

Oh, and would it be PVP ? ie can it be kept from AI missions where you have to spend time looking for your opponent?
(Or at least could the AI missions be restricited to Kzin)

[Dizzy]

Hrmmmm

[Dfly]

Oh PLease, just put 1 rock near an edge.  Hexx will find it I am sure 

[NuclearWessels]

What if you tied the tac warp button to a end mission condition so if you tac, it forces a close game? That way you can't tac warp just to avoid drones coming in(the other party gets their shift).

That could certainly be done (actually it would be the easiest way to script it).

As for those turn modes, is it anything like what you see when you HET back onto the map after crossing to border?

Yes now that you mention it - very similar

dave

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Hrmmmm

[NuclearWessels]

...  Second, I am always hesitant to relive to heavily on a scripted solution to add a game feature.  It would seem that any and all scripts would need to be modified to include such a feature and this feature would not be present in our scripter's mission packs. 
...

I hear ya!   For now I'm just looking at this as an experiment to see what we might be able to do.  If it pans out, then maybe come up with a small set of scripts implementing this -- I can't see replacing the entire current script set with something like this, just because the play style would be so different that it seems bound to screw someone.

dave

[NuclearWessels]

...

Would the warp be able to ignore terrain? Or is there a chance you'd run smack into something beyond wht you can see?

Depends on which way we do this - if we use a sort of imaginary/mission ending warp ("Drive engaged Captain" - "Mission Incomplete") then we can duck the terrain issue.  If we actually have the ship go to high speed and fly off the map then hitting terrain is a definite possibility - maybe one of the dangers of a sudden jump to warp speed from the midst of a combat situation

dave

[NuclearWessels]

Oh, and would it be PVP ? ie can it be kept from AI missions where you have to spend time looking for your opponent?
(Or at least could the AI missions be restricited to Kzin)

For AI missions they'd have to be set up within sensor range ... well, that or you just sit still and wait til the AI comes to you, since the AI always magically knows exactly where you are, even when you're way the hell out of sensor range.

dave

[Dfly]

just for those that dont know, if against AI or even humans, hitting the ` key(the one above the tab), it automatically gives you the direction of the nearest enemy ship.  At least you would know which direction to fly.

[FPF-DieHard]

I think running into a rock at warp speed is to funny to NOT leave as a possibility.   

[KBF-Crim]

Oh, and would it be PVP ? ie can it be kept from AI missions where you have to spend time looking for your opponent?
(Or at least could the AI missions be restricited to Kzin)

For AI missions they'd have to be set up within sensor range ... well, that or you just sit still and wait til the AI comes to you, since the AI always magically knows exactly where you are, even when you're way the hell out of sensor range.

dave

That brings up a semi interesting observation.....

The last game I played where the AI enemy actually didnt know where you were, and had to find you was *drum roll please*

Red Storm Rising...C64....

Being able to shake an alpha off yer tale and then sill set him up again was....priceless...

(then again...I havent tried any of the current generation of sub sims)

[Lieutenant_Q]

You know, as dull as it would be, I'd like to see missions where you don't start within sensor range of each other, and the AI doesn't know where you are.

Can we get Scouts to have a doubled sensor range?

[Mutilator]

I would miss the excitement of just scrapping over the map edge or the horror of that last second tractor pulling you back to a certain  death. While the taldren fly off the map is not the SFB method of escape it certainly added some climatic conclusions to many battles I have been in over the years.

As a gang bang pilot I perfer guns at twenty paces and have at it. Big maps looking for enemy might eat up my hunting and killing pace. 

[Commander La'ra]

Don't suppose Disengagement by Sublight Evasion would also be possible?

I like these ideas.

[NuclearWessels]

Heh, while the mind is being demented ... if this was used in conjunction with the "friendly fire" option, then if you started far enough apart on the map you wouldn't know where on the map your teammates were either  -- all sorts of possibilities

dave

[NuclearWessels]

Don't suppose Disengagement by Sublight Evasion would also be possible?

I like these ideas.

We couldn't really get the boom/saucer seperation ideas correct, since the player would still have their "whole" ship after the mission ended.  I guess we could have the script totally nuke their aft hull, warp engines, etc to simulate it a bit.

The probability of success and modifiers for friendly/enemy ships we could handle ok

dave

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I like the idea.  I *love* the idea of getting rid of the map edge.   I've always hated that artificial map edge.

What I'd really like to see, is a "disengage button" (or a reasonable facsimile).   What it would do is force your speed to max, and leave you at max speed with lowered shields for one turn after you accelerated to max speed.   If you were still capable of meeting the disengagement by acceleration rules at the end of that turn, then you'd go to high warp (100 or so) and have to fly off the map. 

This follows the SFB rules except for the lowering of shields part.   (I made that up.)  However, disengagement is awfully easy in SFB, and I'd think that in a computer game you'd want a little better chance of killing people.  Getting in that last phaser shot that drops them below warp threshold while they are trying to rev up the engines would be *priceless*.

-S'Cipio

[Hexx]

I like the idea.  I *love* the idea of getting rid of the map edge.   I've always hated that artificial map edge.

What I'd really like to see, is a "disengage button" (or a reasonable facsimile).   What it would do is force your speed to max, and leave you at max speed with lowered shields for one turn after you accelerated to max speed.   If you were still capable of meeting the disengagement by acceleration rules at the end of that turn, then you'd go to high warp (100 or so) and have to fly off the map. 

This follows the SFB rules except for the lowering of shields part.   (I made that up.)  However, disengagement is awfully easy in SFB, and I'd think that in a computer game you'd want a little better chance of killing people.  Getting in that last phaser shot that drops them below warp threshold while they are trying to rev up the engines would be *priceless*.

-S'Cipio

And yet another massive advantage for the Proxy photon you Federation lackey.
(does lackey have an "e" ?)

[FPF-DieHard]

Oh, and would it be PVP ? ie can it be kept from AI missions where you have to spend time looking for your opponent?
(Or at least could the AI missions be restricited to Kzin)

For AI missions they'd have to be set up within sensor range ... well, that or you just sit still and wait til the AI comes to you, since the AI always magically knows exactly where you are, even when you're way the hell out of sensor range.

dave

That brings up a semi interesting observation.....

The last game I played where the AI enemy actually didnt know where you were, and had to find you was *drum roll please*

Red Storm Rising...C64....

Being able to shake an alpha off yer tale and then sill set him up again was....priceless...

(then again...I havent tried any of the current generation of sub sims)

That game was awesome!!!  i'd play it now if I could get it on a moderm format

[762_XC]

Will this make it easier or harder for Dizzy to kill n00bs?

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I like the idea.  I *love* the idea of getting rid of the map edge.   I've always hated that artificial map edge.

What I'd really like to see, is a "disengage button" (or a reasonable facsimile).   What it would do is force your speed to max, and leave you at max speed with lowered shields for one turn after you accelerated to max speed.   If you were still capable of meeting the disengagement by acceleration rules at the end of that turn, then you'd go to high warp (100 or so) and have to fly off the map. 

This follows the SFB rules except for the lowering of shields part.   (I made that up.)  However, disengagement is awfully easy in SFB, and I'd think that in a computer game you'd want a little better chance of killing people.  Getting in that last phaser shot that drops them below warp threshold while they are trying to rev up the engines would be *priceless*.

-S'Cipio

And yet another massive advantage for the Proxy photon you Federation lackey.
(does lackey have an "e" ?)

Not to worry.   I'm sure you'd be running long before one more proxy would make a difference.     

-S'Cipio

[CaptJosh]

Oh, and would it be PVP ? ie can it be kept from AI missions where you have to spend time looking for your opponent?
(Or at least could the AI missions be restricited to Kzin)

For AI missions they'd have to be set up within sensor range ... well, that or you just sit still and wait til the AI comes to you, since the AI always magically knows exactly where you are, even when you're way the hell out of sensor range.

dave

That brings up a semi interesting observation.....

The last game I played where the AI enemy actually didnt know where you were, and had to find you was *drum roll please*

Red Storm Rising...C64....

Being able to shake an alpha off yer tale and then sill set him up again was....priceless...

(then again...I havent tried any of the current generation of sub sims)

That's Alfa, not alpha.

[Dizzy]

Heh, while the mind is being demented ... if this was used in conjunction with the "friendly fire" option, then if you started far enough apart on the map you wouldn't know where on the map your teammates were either  -- all sorts of possibilities

dave

That'd kinda suck... The time it takes to get a match started shouldnt be much more than 2 minutes. That's probably a 100k starting distance between sides.

[Dizzy]

Will this make it easier or harder for Dizzy to kill n00bs?

On one had, dying makes you learn faster than running whitch only teaches the art of how to run rather than fight which then leads to more running. So anything that helps a noob get away is bad imo.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

And yet another massive advantage for the Proxy photon you Federation lackey.
(does lackey have an "e" ?)

I didn't know he was installing retro-grade movement also.....

Or was there some other way to get photons to fire behind you?

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Will this make it easier or harder for Dizzy to kill n00bs?

On one had, dying makes you learn faster than running whitch only teaches the art of how to run rather than fight which then leads to more running. So anything that helps a noob get away is bad imo.

Not too mention, it takes away from your inflated kill ratio....

[Dizzy]

Will this make it easier or harder for Dizzy to kill n00bs?

On one had, dying makes you learn faster than running whitch only teaches the art of how to run rather than fight which then leads to more running. So anything that helps a noob get away is bad imo.

Not too mention, it takes away from your inflated kill ratio....

Everyone needs to pad their kill ratio. 

[Dizzy]

I didn't know he was installing retro-grade movement also.....

Or was there some other way to get photons to fire behind you?

NCM!

[FPF-DieHard]

I didn't know he was installing retro-grade movement also.....

Or was there some other way to get photons to fire behind you?

NCM!

Just ask J'inn   

hard it it to make a backwards ship model?   (I'm thinking again . . .)

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

I didn't know he was installing retro-grade movement also.....

Or was there some other way to get photons to fire behind you?

NCM!

What was that? 

I didn't quite hear you....

Did you say 'death-trap'?

[FPF-DieHard]

Did you say 'death-trap'?

Like J'inn to a rock

[KBFLordKrueg]

I think this would be worth trying at least.
Not a bad idea at all...

[NuclearWessels]

LOL - OK guys, here are a couple of prototype scripts to play with (Met_ED5FleetWarp.scr and Met_ED5PlayerWarp.scr) along with a single-player campaign file if you want to check them out in SP as a Klinky.

http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe


Here's how things work:

The Map

 - The map is roughly 2500x2500, so takes about 40 minutes to cross at speed 31 with game speed at 8.
(Note the warp 7 feature below lets you cross the map in about 4 minutes.)

 - Players start out roughly in the center of the map, with a LOT of empty space around them.

 - Closer to the sides of the map, you'll find various randomly generated terrain features, including a sun in one area, planets and a moon in another, an asteroid field in another,  with each of these areas seperated by a LOT of empty space.

Disengagement

 - At the moment disengagement is just by map edge, but the warp options included makes it nearly equivalent to disengagement by acceleration (see below).

Warp Options

You can travel around the map at regular combat speeds (up to 31), or at non-combat speeds of warp 5 (speed 125) or warp 7 (speed 343).  (IIRC, the SFB/Warp speed conversions were warp N = speed N³.)

For this "proof of concept" mission, I'm using green/yellow/red alert to switch you between warp 7, 5, and regular combat speeds.

 - If you're travelling at speed 27 or higher, hit yellow alert to jump to warp 5 (spd 125). 
It will take roughly a turn to make the jump, so you'll be travelling at yellow alert at speed 27 for 30 seconds or so before the jump kicks in.

 - Once you've made the jump to warp 5, you can make the jump to warp 7 (spd 343) by going to green alert. 
Once again, it will take roughly 30 seconds to kick in, during which time you'll be flying without shields.

NOTE: your ship will turn like a pig at warp 7, so make sure you pick an appropriate view to give you a good look in front of you before you jump -- asteroids, suns etc are visible even at a distance of 2500 if you're in F2 or whatever, but the overhead view won't zoom out far enough to see them!

 - To drop down in speed, hit yellow alert (to drop from 7 to 5) or red alert (to drop to combat speeds). 
Dropping speed shouldn't take more than a couple of seconds.

Disclaimer

I'm not at all sure how practical the warping will turn out to be in terms of gameplay, but have a play with it and see what you think! 

If we want to use the higher warps for disengagement only, then I can simply chop out the bits that let you drop back down to combat speeds, so once you jump to warp you're on you're way off the map.

At the moment, you have to be able to hit and maintain warp 3 (spd 27) to jump to higher warp speeds.  This means slower ships (e.g. the R-WE) are unable to use the warp features.  It also means that if your engines have taken more than a few hits then your ship probably can't either.  We may want a better system, but this was an easy one to put together for the prototype scripts.

Needless to say, all the numbers (delay times, travel speeds, etc) are pretty arbitrary, so feel free to suggest something that makes more sense!

dave

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

OMG, you rock, Dave!!!

[Dizzy]

Wow dave that so f*cking cool!

Can you disable warping for the 1st 2:00 minutes of the match? I can see exploitation here.

And I like the speed 27 or no warp feature. We might want to make this 30... have to play with it and see.

Nice work!

[NuclearWessels]

Wow dave that so f*cking cool!

Can you disable warping for the 1st 2:00 minutes of the match? I can see exploitation here.

And I like the speed 27 or no warp feature. We might want to make this 30... have to play with it and see.

Nice work!

Picking the speed X or no warp is dead easy, we can tweak that however we like.

An alternative could be to say that your engines must be less than X% damaged, either approach is managable.

Disabling warping for the first N minutes is also pretty straight forward and seems like a good idea.

I'm not sure what this is going to turn out like in PvP -- it makes it pretty easy to jump halfway across the map then try to regroup until the enemy comes looking for you.    And when you go looking for someone it's going to be a juggling act as to how close you get before you drop out of warp, because you'll be dropping out with no weapons armed, whereas the huntee has probably had a couple of turns to load up.

Should be interesting!

dave

[Hexx]

May be off on a completely wrong track here- but does the "warp" take up any power?
Jus wondering if those evil plasma jokcs can unload, warp (and recharge) and not come out of warp again
till they're charged.

[NuclearWessels]

May be off on a completely wrong track here- but does the "warp" take up any power?
Jus wondering if those evil plasma jokcs can unload, warp (and recharge) and not come out of warp again
till they're charged.

It doesn't take up any power, but you can't charge weapons at green alert and as soon as you hit red alert you get dumped back to regular combat speeds 

Basically, you're pretty much defenseless for a turn or two going into and coming out of the high warps!

dave

[Dizzy]

Obviously if you cant make 30 then you're too damaged to disengage via acceleration... I dont know how the mechanics of x% damage to engines would work... It's easier to see how much more repair you'll need to make to get to 27 or 30.

Interesting tidbit... shields cost power. So going to yellow alert is more expensive than green alert, so it's good you have to pay for it going to yellow 1st before then going to green.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Obviously if you cant make 30 then you're too damaged to disengage via acceleration... I dont know how the mechanics of x% damage to engines would work... It's easier to see how much more repair you'll need to make to get to 27 or 30.

Interesting tidbit... shields cost power. So going to yellow alert is more expensive than green alert, so it's good you have to pay for it going to yellow 1st before then going to green.

Have you looked at the engine power on some of the early era Hydrans?  Some of them can't manage spd 30 on yellow alert. (IE no heavies powered up)

[Dizzy]

Well... the lower you go for the warp threshold the easier its abused. So do what I do, go to yellow alert then lower your shields for 30 secs. I do it in combat all the time. 

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Wow dave that so f*cking cool!

Can you disable warping for the 1st 2:00 minutes of the match? I can see exploitation here.

And I like the speed 27 or no warp feature. We might want to make this 30... have to play with it and see.

Nice work!

Picking the speed X or no warp is dead easy, we can tweak that however we like.

An alternative could be to say that your engines must be less than X% damaged, either approach is managable.

Disabling warping for the first N minutes is also pretty straight forward and seems like a good idea.

I'm not sure what this is going to turn out like in PvP -- it makes it pretty easy to jump halfway across the map then try to regroup until the enemy comes looking for you.    And when you go looking for someone it's going to be a juggling act as to how close you get before you drop out of warp, because you'll be dropping out with no weapons armed, whereas the huntee has probably had a couple of turns to load up.

Should be interesting!

dave

I haven't tried the scripts yet (I'm dying to), but that's never stopped me from shooting my mouth off before.

I'd go with the engine percentage rather than a set speed.   As you say, a set speed means that WE's can never use acceleration.  Besides, 50% of engines was the SFB rule.

From your description, this is incredible stuff.  I love the random terrain near the edges to add a risk factor to your slow turning ship.    YOU ROCK!

-S'Cipio

[Dfly]

Due to power curves especially in early era, I would hate to see you needing to go to speed 30 or more to disengage.  Many ships cannot do speed 30 or more unless totally undamaged.  A ship that receives just a tad of damage(say a heavy with 40 internals) will most likely not make it to warp.  That would be aweful.

Perhaps any way to change it during a campaign to speed 27 for early, 29 for mid, 31 for late?

It seems a tad unreal that even at 27 some ships cannot warp out, but then again if a ship cannot attain warp 5 or 7, it would most likely not ever be in the front lines for battles.

[762_XC]

Go with 50% like Scippy said. SFB is holy.

[NuclearWessels]

The only catch with the standard SFB acceleration rule is I've got no way to check what a ship's top attainable speed is, so no way to know if they're going as fast as they can before kicking in the "next warp" phase.  Hmmm ... maybe just scale up the current speed by 2 warp factors?  E.g. if you're going warp 3 (27) then you bump up to warp 5 (125), but if you're only going warp 2.5 (~16) then up bump up to warp 4.5 (~91).  Assuming your engines are at least at 50%.

Between the freighters/qships, the romulan snipe and war eagle series, a bunch of the pirates, and many of the police ships, there are a lot of ships that can't make speed 25 - at least 300 of them in a quick check of the OP+4 list, and nearly 700 ships across the different races and cartels that can't make speed 30.

Another question ... should I give the AI the ability to go to high warp?  Say if there are no enemy ships within range R1 have the AI jump to warp 5 to go looking for them, and if there are no enemies within range R2 have them jump to warp 7?   Heh, otherwise I guess it would make a good bathroom break -- go to warp, get a thousand clicks away from the AI, go to speed 0 and red alert, then go grab a beer, make a phone call, or whatever while you wait for the poor buggers to pedal across the map to you

dave

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Heh, otherwise I guess it would make a good bathroom break -- go to warp, get a thousand clicks away from the AI, go to speed 0 and red alert, then go grab a beer, make a phone call, or whatever while you wait for the poor buggers to pedal across the map to you

dave

LOL... is there a way this can be made into a multiplayer map for GSA & IP games?

[NuclearWessels]

Heh, otherwise I guess it would make a good bathroom break -- go to warp, get a thousand clicks away from the AI, go to speed 0 and red alert, then go grab a beer, make a phone call, or whatever while you wait for the poor buggers to pedal across the map to you

dave

LOL... is there a way this can be made into a multiplayer map for GSA & IP games?

LOL - funny you mention that, I was just thinking of throwing a version of this on as a free-for-all variant for multiplayer -- just so folks could play with the impact of warping a bit easier.

dave

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

I don't supposed there is a way to include it as a map for Co-Op Ace or sector assault, is there?

[NuclearWessels]

I don't supposed there is a way to include it as a map for Co-Op Ace or sector assault, is there?

No, not that I know of - sorry!

dave

[FPF-DieHard]

Anyway we can get a "Skirmish" mission to screw around with that works under these paramaeters?

[FPF-DieHard]

can a Tractor be held at Yellow alert?

[el-Karnak]

That's pretty cool.

If y'all come to a consensus then I'll put in the same warp disengagement specs. in the EEK missions.

[FPF-DieHard]

You can hold a Tractor AND fire drones while at warp, any way ti disble this?

[NuclearWessels]

You can hold a Tractor AND fire drones while at warp, any way ti disble this?

Yep, IIRC there's a tractor officer that can be turned on/off, and I'm sure we can work something out for the drones

dave

[NuclearWessels]

That's pretty cool.

If y'all come to a consensus then I'll put in the same warp disengagement specs. in the EEK missions.

Coolness!!!

dave

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You can hold a Tractor AND fire drones while at warp, any way ti disble this?

OMFG!  DEATH DRAG FROM HELL!!!!


 


Seriously this may not be a good thing, but I'd love to try it a few times in testing 

[Lepton]

You'll forgive me for not pulling out my SFB stuff, but why not just have a disengage button?  It could be abused for quick get-aways but this tac warping could also be abused by running away, repairing, and coming back.  People did this a bit in SFC3.

[NuclearWessels]

You'll forgive me for not pulling out my SFB stuff, but why not just have a disengage button?  It could be abused for quick get-aways but this tac warping could also be abused by running away, repairing, and coming back.  People did this a bit in SFC3.

A disengage button might indeed turn out to be the better way to go, but it's very hard to stop dave from playing with toys when he learns something new 

Seriously, this might all turn out to belong in the "cute, but doesn't work out" bucket, but there might be some fun experimentation in the meanwhile    Whatever combination of bits folks pick up on, if any, I'm happy to implement.

dave

[NuclearWessels]

Anyway we can get a "Skirmish" mission to screw around with that works under these paramaeters?

Done (although I haven't tested the skirmish version much).

It's added to the pack and will show up in the skirmish menu as something like "ED TacWarp Skirmish" (the script itself is Ski_EDFree4AllWarp.scr)

http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe


dave

[el-Karnak]

You'll forgive me for not pulling out my SFB stuff, but why not just have a disengage button?  It could be abused for quick get-aways but this tac warping could also be abused by running away, repairing, and coming back.  People did this a bit in SFC3.

A disengage button might indeed turn out to be the better way to go, but it's very hard to stop dave from playing with toys when he learns something new 

Seriously, this might all turn out to belong in the "cute, but doesn't work out" bucket, but there might be some fun experimentation in the meanwhile    Whatever combination of bits folks pick up on, if any, I'm happy to implement.

dave

I think that in SFB that when you disengage then the game is over. Maybe, a disengage button is the way to go?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Having a disengage button is a nice addition, I do worry about potential exploits if warping is allowed in combat.  Warp speed death drags, warp speeding to jump on top of someone then dumping your ready to fire fighters at point blank range, allowing a ship moving faster than a distant ship to instantly close and stay on top of the enemy that normally would not have allowed this but with no warning time is now susceptible to the tactic, using warp to escape from a well laid pattern od converging drones or converging fighters/pfs on a border or against an obstacle, warping in to drop a Nuke Space mine,  warping while cloaked, tracoring slower fighters/pfs and warping them into range, warping with that big asteroid in a tractor, maulers warping in to get a shot, etc.

[Lepton]

Don't know if this is really an issue but with the Skirmish mission I believe on some occasions my enemy may have spawned at a good distance from me such that I could never find him.  Also I noted that at warp 4/yellow alert I was able to activate and charge a phaser and fire it without voiding the warp 4 status.  This was not true of photons.  Any effort to bring them online resulted in a red alert and back to speed 27.

[CaptJosh]

I can already tell you a potential exploit. A weapon is automatically onlined when it gets repaired. If you have a damaged torpedo launcher, and you finish repairing it while at condition green, it starts loading, and no loss of condition green status.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

From trying one mission.... on yellow alert, you can drop SP's and launch drones.  Phasers go off line & start to come back on line as soon as you hit red alert again.

Phaser capcitor does not empty though... so you got power for other things.

It can definately get you away from a boat load of drones though

[Dizzy]

After testing this, I think a 30 second warm up with 75%+ engines at GREEN alert may be the ideal way to warp off the map. Too many advantages for non plasma races on yellow alert.

On yellow alert, tractors have to be off, the shuttle bay cant work... All the exploits have to be nailed shut.

[NuclearWessels]

Devious Bastard Points for Chuut and CaptJosh 

I'll put together another version soonly where it's simply a disengage button.

As for a warp-in-combat version, I'll see what I can do about turning off potential weaponry/arming exploits, but the issues Chuut raises makes it look kinda shaky except as a novelty/specialty feature.  Keep it comin' though - I'm happy to code it up however you folks see fit!

dave

Having a disengage button is a nice addition, I do worry about potential exploits if warping is allowed in combat.  Warp speed death drags, warp speeding to jump on top of someone then dumping your ready to fire fighters at point blank range, allowing a ship moving faster than a distant ship to instantly close and stay on top of the enemy that normally would not have allowed this but with no warning time is now susceptible to the tactic, using warp to escape from a well laid pattern od converging drones or converging fighters/pfs on a border or against an obstacle, warping in to drop a Nuke Space mine,  warping while cloaked, tracoring slower fighters/pfs and warping them into range, warping with that big asteroid in a tractor, maulers warping in to get a shot, etc.

I can already tell you a potential exploit. A weapon is automatically onlined when it gets repaired. If you have a damaged torpedo launcher, and you finish repairing it while at condition green, it starts loading, and no loss of condition green status.

[Hexx]

Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to fire ESG's at yellow alert 

Just another sign of the ever obvious anti-Lyran bias held by the creators.

Spd 300 ESG slash attacks would have been cool 

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

LOL... another thing with the tractor exploit... spd 125+ DNH's.... Get your wing man to tow you.... he hits spd 28, goes yellow alert, then warps you both  up to the enemy and to do a passing shot.... Good luck on timing... and you can warp past the enemy to reload...

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

LOL... another thing with the tractor exploit... spd 125+ DNH's.... Get your wing man to tow you.... he hits spd 28, goes yellow alert, then warps you both  up to the enemy and to do a passing shot.... Good luck on timing... and you can warp past the enemy to reload...

Amateurs, do the same thing with the DNH starting up his own tractor targeting the enmy ship and simply take him along for the ride with you away from any wingman he might have.  If your towing him so fast he likely can power up weapons and a level 5 without difficulty since he doesn't have to worry about sending much power to movement.  If your going to use a cheesy exploit, do it right at least.   

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

I will teach them everything THEY know... but not everything I....

Same on you for divulging secrets....

[el-Karnak]

Devious Bastard Points for Chuut and CaptJosh 

I'll put together another version soonly where it's simply a disengage button.

As for a warp-in-combat version, I'll see what I can do about turning off potential weaponry/arming exploits, but the issues Chuut raises makes it look kinda shaky except as a novelty/specialty feature.  Keep it comin' though - I'm happy to code it up however you folks see fit!

dave

Having a disengage button is a nice addition, I do worry about potential exploits if warping is allowed in combat.  Warp speed death drags, warp speeding to jump on top of someone then dumping your ready to fire fighters at point blank range, allowing a ship moving faster than a distant ship to instantly close and stay on top of the enemy that normally would not have allowed this but with no warning time is now susceptible to the tactic, using warp to escape from a well laid pattern od converging drones or converging fighters/pfs on a border or against an obstacle, warping in to drop a Nuke Space mine,  warping while cloaked, tracoring slower fighters/pfs and warping them into range, warping with that big asteroid in a tractor, maulers warping in to get a shot, etc.

I can already tell you a potential exploit. A weapon is automatically onlined when it gets repaired. If you have a damaged torpedo launcher, and you finish repairing it while at condition green, it starts loading, and no loss of condition green status.

I am thinking that in SFCOP that the sole purpose of the warp feature for all races except Andros is to end the mission just like crossing the red-line "engages warp drive" to end the mission. SFC stance is that all combat is done at sub-light speed so they conviently use the warp feature to end the mission. Similar paradigm is used in Star Wars universe and SFC3 games.

Tac. Warp is a feature that is reserved by for SFC3 game and you can make an argument that it's a suitable replacement for the Andro. DisDev. 

I've seen different warp scales used in the Star Trek universe. I think think the canon one used in the Star Trek films is that actual ship speed in the "speed-of-light" multiplier = (warp factor)^(10/3) for warp factors 1 thru 9. From warp 9 thru 10 an asymtotic curve is used.

Warp Factor x c Velocity Equation
Warp 1 1 c 3.0x105 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 2 10.079 c 3.0x106 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 3 38.941 c 1.2x107 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 4 101.59 c 3.0x107 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 5 213.75 c 6.4x107 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 6 392.50 c 1.2x108 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 7 656.13 c 2.0x108 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 8 1,024 c 3.1x108 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 9 1,516.4 c 4.5x108 km/s w10 / 3
Warp 9.2 1,649 c 4.9x108 km/s w3.338
Warp 9.6 1,909 c 5.7x108 km/s w3.34
Warp 9.9 3,053 c 9.2x108 km/s w3.5
Warp 9.9753 6,000 c 1.8x109 km/s w3.7822
Warp 9.99 7,912 c 2.3x109 km/s w3.9
Warp 9.9999 199,516 c 6.0x1010 km/s w5.3
Warp 10.37431 2,962,541 c 8.9x1011 km/s w6.370004

etc.
where c = 3 x 10^8 m/s.

Warp factor 10 was regarded as impossible to reach in the warp domain and you could only approach this limit asymptotically.  The Borg developed trans-warp in order to break through the warp factor 10 barrier.

So, in the game for the non-Andro races you could use the tac. warp to end the mission and you can have the mission scripts end the mission when the tac. warp toggle is hit by virtue of not allowing the player to exit warp drive within the confines of the mission map. This would eliminate any tac. warp exploit concerns because the mission would auto-end when tac. warp is enabled the first time and the ship exits the map; and, there would be no possibility for the non-Andro race ship to exit warp once engaged.

In this manner, we can use the huge maps to eliminate the border crowding problems in PvP but not allow tac. warp feature to be used in the SFCOP universe when it is part of the SFC3 universe expect for SFB documented exceptions like the Andro DisDev.

[Lieutenant_Q]

It gets worse Dave...you can phaser boat at Yellow alert.  Bringing your phaser banks online only brings the ship to Yellow Alert.  They cycle and fire just fine, so a Droner can stay at Yellow alert the whole time. 

[Dizzy]

I suggest a Green Alert feature only where there is a warm up time of 30 secs. Ships engines must be 90% undamaged or ship must attain speed 27. Tractors and shuttle bays need to be off.

Yellow Alert just wont work, Dave.

I read a bit about the disengage button in comms panel? I guess it would do the same thing here.

[GDA-Agave]

Oh, I can't wait to try your mission idea.

From what I have read so far, here are my likes and dislikes

I like:
(1) large mission map, no stupid border line to force your opponent against (although plasma races use this more than most)
(2) random terrain features around the outside of map - VERY COOL - I was going to ask if that was possible, but you beat me to it
(3) warp to disengage only - like you guys have been discussing, set up all the criteria to be met before you can do so
(4) AI warping in to start mission, great idea; I'd say give the live player one full turn (maybe 2) to do his thing and then have the AI warp in to about range 50;  sure it would represent them always "finding" us before we find them, but live players have all the real advantage against AI anyway

Disengagement criteria ideas- 50% of power available; maybe even designate that it must be warp engine power (if possible);   I love the yellow/green alert idea to represent the warp status.  Could you setup yellow alert as the "warp prep" stage, players could switch to yellow alert to see if they could use warp to disengage (criteria is checked here, still max speed 31, 1 or 2 turns), they would have some capabilities with shields and limited weapon options to defend themselves during this phase, and if their ship is ok to warp a message would come up like "Captain, engines check out.  We are ready to engage warp."  They could then hit green alert and disengage by warp off the board.  The actual green alert status (with no shields or weapons) would last about 15 seconds.   Most player would be running at top speed away from their opponents at this point anyway.  (Dizzy doesn't need any more advantages to pad his kills, j/k)

Of course, if they don't pass the criteria in yellow alert status, the message they received could be something more like this, "Captain, warp engines too badly damaged.  No warp available.   Time to turn around and finish off this <so many optional words here>"   (kind of a feisty first officer type)  

Sure, some races do better in yellow alert status than others, I could probably get over that myself but this seems like where this idea would run into heated discussions about equaling our capabilities across all races.

Dislikes:
(1) ability to warp DURING combat;  don't like it, would not like to see it used (and you know it would be used) as a tactical means of getting out of a bad situation;  warp should only be used to enter or leave the combat area, NOT USED during combat.

Just some of my thoughts on this.   GREAT IDEA DAVE!!  NEW FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!

[Lieutenant_Q]

Suggestion:
Set the "speed limit" of the map to say 27.  If you want to go faster than that, you need to select the "High Warp" button from the comm panel.  Then you can set your speed to 64 (28), 125 (29), 216 (30), 343 (31).  If you can make it part of the speed bar, that automatically makes sure that the ships have the power to do so.  And if they only have enough power for warp 4, then they only have enough power for warp 4.

Set the warm up time equal to the time it takes for the ship to accelerate to 27, if they're already at 27, then they should be able to get into high warp within 10 seconds.  Make it so once they ARE at high warp, they need to decelerate, and deceleration takes a certain amount of time. (Could you imagine snagging someone at high warp with a tractor, have both ships suffer the equivilant of an HET breakdown )

I don't like the idea of turning off the shuttle bay...if a captain needs to drop a distraction (sp or ss) to get away, they're screwed.

Question:  Is there anyway we can get an SFC1 type detection system in place?  In SFC1 you couldn't detect certain ships until they were at 80 IIRC.

[Dizzy]

Disengagement criteria ideas- 50% of power available; maybe even designate that it must be warp engine power (if possible);  

NONONONONO!!!

Players will just warp off after taking a serious hit. No one will ever get a kill. All this encourages is peeps to run away. Ultimately, what you have is constant engine replenishment. You just keep warping around the map till your engines repair fully then you reengage. Thats utter BS. By setting such a high criteria for disengagement, say speed 30, we force upon the player to commit to the engagement once a battle has begun. Running then only becomes an option in this case at the start or shortly thereafter when the player decides he is outmatched. If you allow them to so easily disengage, then no one will ever die. I'd never use those missions on a server.

[el-Karnak]

I think we should try to standardize what exactly warp factor one is in the SFCOP game for mission scripting purposes.  The SFCOP manual clearly states that all combat is done at sub-light speed and ignores the SFB warp factor conversions to actually speed1, 4, 27, etc.  This is in-concert with the accepted practices in the other SciFi genres like StarWars, ST-TNG, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon5, etc. where all combat is done at sub-light.  One reason is that light-based direct-fire weapons (ie. lasers, phasers, disrupters, etc.) are not supposed to work at warp+ speeds. The only weapons that could be fired at warp+ speeds were projectiles like Photon torps in SFC3. So, I could see drones being fired at warp+ speeds, but no such warp+ speed drones exist in SFCOP.

I understand that there is a little canonical confusion about what warp factors translate to what speed in the SFC-related games, but a few times in Star Trek things need to be "fixed-up". A classic example is the warbird in the TOS episode "Balance of Terror" being analysed as sublight-only. Canon that was used by SFB. 

This canon error was actually fixed in an Lost Era Novel "The Sundered" where Sulu actually corrects Scotty's incorrect analysis. A more obvious analysis would classify the warbird as a warp 3 vessel. Further analysis of the "Star Trek: Star Charts" reference book would show you how impossible it would be for a sublight warbird to hit all those fed outposts in the timeline of the episode. Further analysis of the Enterprise series would indicate that the Romulan Empire basically came late in developing the warp factor 5 plus engine and were stuck at sub-Warp factor 3 speeds, not stuck without warp  drive altogether as SFB states. The whole premise of the Enterprise series is that no real exploring could be done until  a race developed the warp 5 engine, and this is before the fabled Earth-Romulan war.

 The Star Trek novel "Final Reflection" shows the Klingons inventing their own warp 6 engine about 30 to 50 years before the TOS series. The D6-class ships were built for the warp 6 engines by the Klingons.  So, at the time of the TOS, the big tech transfer from the Klingons to the Rommies had to be giving them warp engines that go better than low warp 3, not the actual warp engine itself.

So, I can see how Taldren went and put in their manuals that all combat is done at sub-light.

Would warp factor one in SFCOP be speed 40? 50? 100?

I don't think it can be in the 30s cuz plasma torps can go speed 36.

I am thinking speed 100 in SFCOP could be warp factor one cuz it's a nice round number and also sub-light realitivistic physics make it difficult to perform any meaningful actions at speed higher than 1/2 c or 50% of 3 * 10^8 m/s.

Then I could know what the min. speed for tac. warping Andros should be?

[FPF-DieHard]

Then I could know what the min. speed for tac. warping Andros should be?

My nagging about tactical warp was so we can do an "Andros" server where the "Andros" can warp in combat to make up for the lack of their other abilites.

Is there any way for one race to be able to warp with much fewer retrictions that that other?   Can this be done on ship-by-ship basis based on some designator in the shiplist?

Speed 100 works for me for TacWarp, that would make "Full Impulse" 30% the speed of light which is about how fast you got go before relatvistc effects get too whacky.

[GDA-Agave]

Players will just warp off after taking a serious hit. No one will ever get a kill.

Your statement here is crap!!  You know damn well that there will still plenty of kills to be had.   What this allows a player to do is stick around and try a few things before making the decision of whether or not to disengage.   Most likely anyone who sticks around long enough to even wonder if they are at 50% power is gonna be dead anyway.  By setting the speed criteria so high, YOU are the one encouraging players to make a decision very early in the match about disengaging.   With 50% power criteria, more players are likely to stick around a while, giving you more chances to get in your "most precious" kills.  Once again, we see balance vs PvP attitudes smacking heads.

Ultimately, what you have is constant engine replenishment. You just keep warping around the map till your engines repair fully then you reengage. Thats utter BS.

Don't we already have rules pertaining to wasting someone time by just running around the map?  Just because you have come up with another reason for somone to do it doesn't make it right.

By setting such a high criteria for disengagement, say speed 30, we force upon the player to commit to the engagement once a battle has begun. Running then only becomes an option in this case at the start or shortly thereafter when the player decides he is outmatched. If you allow them to so easily disengage, then no one will ever die. I'd never use those missions on a server.

See above.  You know that nothing pisses off a PvP attitude player than someone turning around at the border and taco belling.   If you give players the option to stick around, they will.  Hence, you have more time to try and kill them.

Am I making any sense to anyone?  Or am I just howling at the moon again?

[Lieutenant_Q]

perfect sense to me...  I think dizzy is a little off, honestly I would think the game SHOULD be towards less kills.

[NuclearWessels]

I do think that if you set the disengage requirements very high on a big map then more folks will disengage early.

Suppose I'm up against a slightly bigger opponent, and I know that just a couple of engine hits will prevent me from disengaging (or force me to spend 20 m inutes running for the border to do it manually).  Then I'm less likely to take a chance and will disengage at the first opportunity.

If I know I can make a couple of passes, see how the damage falls out, and maybe still hit disengage then I'm much more likely to take a chance -- increasing the chance that I'll actually get knocked below the critical level (whatever that is set at) and be forced to fight to the death (especially since then it'd be an hour long flight to the border even if I could make it).

Just my 0.018
dave

[el-Karnak]

Then I could know what the min. speed for tac. warping Andros should be?

My nagging about tactical warp was so we can do an "Andros" server where the "Andros" can warp in combat to make up for the lack of their other abilites.

Is there any way for one race to be able to warp with much fewer retrictions that that other?   Can this be done on ship-by-ship basis based on some designator in the shiplist?

Speed 100 works for me for TacWarp, that would make "Full Impulse" 30% the speed of light which is about how fast you got go before relatvistc effects get too whacky.

The EEK scripts that are GAW enabled use the race to determine if the tac. Warp feature should be turned on. Right now, I am using OrionTigerHeart race as Andros cuz I am assuming that this is the only pirate race that can use PFs; so, all the TigerHeart ships would be Andros. I can change the Andro-designate race easily enough in the scripts but I would prefer to have a standardized Andro NPC race.  Ship-by-ship basis could be done with MagnumMan shiplist API, but it's much, much easier to just use a race.

[Riskyllama]

Perhaps once we see how ships really handle with either rule in place, well be able to see what rule works best, until then, this is all conjecture in a field where only Dav really knows what he's talking about. Hopefully dave will get those scripts with conditions in a FFA/Hostile skirimish mode and we'll be able to see.

[Dizzy]

Your statement here is crap!!  You know damn well that there will still plenty of kills to be had.   What this allows a player to do is stick around and try a few things before making the decision of whether or not to disengage.   Most likely anyone who sticks around long enough to even wonder if they are at 50% power is gonna be dead anyway.  

WRONG. What happens is when you seriosuly wound an enemy, they simply warp. If you did that in the middle of the map w/o warp they'd be dead. 50% is utter bullsh*t and wont be on my servers. Logically how do you think you'd disengage by acceleration when you only have half power? Thats fricking dumb. Really dumb.

Don't we already have rules pertaining to wasting someone time by just running around the map?  Just because you have come up with another reason for somone to do it doesn't make it right.

You misquoted the rule. It's wasting someone time by just running around the map with no intention of engaging or fighting. By warping a bit here and there you gain some extra time, shield reinforcement and free engine repair. Doing that with intention of reengagement is perfectly within in the rules. What it creates is a tactic of delayment while you repair playing cat and mouse as your opponent vainly tries to warp chase you. It's cheap and stupid and having it available to half damaged ships is ludicrous. Consider this like a battle time-out period while a crew works over your ship. That's exactly what it is.

By setting such a high criteria for disengagement, say speed 30, we force upon the player to commit to the engagement once a battle has begun. Running then only becomes an option in this case at the start or shortly thereafter when the player decides he is outmatched. If you allow them to so easily disengage, then no one will ever die. I'd never use those missions on a server.

You know that nothing pisses off a PvP attitude player than someone turning around at the border and taco belling.   If you give players the option to stick around, they will.  Hence, you have more time to try and kill them.

You have lost your marbles. The 'Hence you have more time to kill them' statement is absurd. Its not a matter of TIME you have to kill them anymore, it's being able to now play the 50% game... This creates a new dynamic... You have to make sure you can knock your opponent down to less than 50% in order to make a kill now.

Am I making any sense to anyone?  Or am I just howling at the moon again?

No and yes.

[Riskyllama]

How is playing for the 50% game going to be any different than the playing for the lost too much power to run game? Alls this really does is remove the border as the necessary jump point, now less games will be fought 5 seconds from an arbitrary line in space...

Agave's right I think you have lost it Dizzy.

[FPF-DieHard]

Be nice guys, we can debate this without the Personal insults.

[762_XC]

Die Hard the forums mod. 

[NuclearWessels]

OK, just to organize my brain as to which variations to try and supply for experimentation/playtesting
(the idea is I'll do a skirmish script and dyna script for each, maybe a multiplayer as well)

 1. the current one that allows combat warping, but modded to disable whatever arming/tractor exploits I can
 2. one that allows going to warp but not dropping back out (i.e. once you go to warp you're leaving, but you still have to navigate off the map)
 3. one with a disengage button that ends the mission (for you at least) but requires you to be at speed 27 (or whatever) to  do it
 4. one with a disengage button that ends the  mission (again, for you) but using the 50+% engine requirement

There might be scripting complications with 3 and 4 if you're leaving a live wing behind, but we'll burn those bridges when we get there.

Variations of 1 or 2 can be done for special cases such as the andros.  Maybe we can add another designator in the Role category, such as "W" to indicate ships that are capable of  combat warping?  (Edit: hmmm ... though that still involves having the script read the shiplist, which is certainly more of a hassle than just checking the race.)

Is that about right?

dave

[Hexx]

I'm feeling lazy so don't feel like looking through the posts- so

Don't forget (if it hasn't been mentioned) that fighters can be launched at green alert.
I'm sure that would benefit the cheesy Hydrans somehow and that would be bad.

~ Honestly, I think the feature is cools, but am (mildly) concerned matches are simply going to be two players warping
around trying to get the perfect attack set up on hte other guy.

Maybe get them working for Andros first, use them on a server (for only Andros) and then spread them out.

[el-Karnak]

I think the way this is going is for option 2 (non-Andro races) only allowable when a certain percentage of engine power is available.  When going to warp the ship goes to green alert status.

I will code up a prototye EEK enemy sweep Patrol mission for people to try out for comparision.

[GDA-Agave]

WRONG. What happens is when you seriously wound an enemy, they simply warp. If you did that in the middle of the map w/o warp they'd be dead. 50% is utter bullsh*t and wont be on my servers. Logically how do you think you'd disengage by acceleration when you only have half power? Thats fricking dumb. Really dumb.

Whats happens now?  When you seriously wound your opponent, they make a decision to run or fight on.  Yes, with the current mission maps they do have to fly off the map giving you the opportunity to kill them on the way out.   I'm not suggesting an immediate warp disengagement thing where your opponent could just warp out at the first sign of trouble.  There should be a procedure that should take a few turns (see my first post), or make so they have to be within a certain distance from the map edge to even disengage.

Players who severely wound their opponents should be given an opportunity to finish the job.   With a speed 30 rule (which would work for most dizzy or plasma ballets tactics) you have almost guaranteed that they will not be able to get away once severely wounded.

You misquoted the rule. It's wasting someone time by just running around the map with no intention of engaging or fighting.

From your earlier post, you said that it would allow a player to just fly around and regain warp power JUST TO THEN warp disengage.  That does not sounds like "intention of engaging or fighting".   That's what I was replying to.

By warping a bit here and there you gain some extra time, shield reinforcement and free engine repair. Doing that with intention of reengagement is perfectly within in the rules. What it creates is a tactic of delayment while you repair playing cat and mouse as your opponent vainly tries to warp chase you. It's cheap and stupid and having it available to half damaged ships is ludicrous. Consider this like a battle time-out period while a crew works over your ship. That's exactly what it is.

First off, I am opposed to being able to use warp for anything other than entering or disengaging combat.   I would not like to see it as a tactic used during engaged combat.    Second, players do this repair tactic now.   They try to create some distance so they can repair.   Most fly close to the border so if under heavy pursuit, they can fly off.  Lastly, the way I think about it, our ships main purpose is to use warp to get them to and from the front.   It seems logical that they would need only 50% of their engines to do so, IMHO.   Hell, even SFB canon agrees with me on this.  I don't know if I've ever had that before.

You know that nothing pisses off a PvP attitude player than someone turning around at the border and taco belling.   If you give players the option to stick around, they will.  Hence, you have more time to try and kill them.

You have lost your marbles. The 'Hence you have more time to kill them' statement is absurd. Its not a matter of TIME you have to kill them anymore, it's being able to now play the 50% game... This creates a new dynamic... You have to make sure you can knock your opponent down to less than 50% in order to make a kill now.

Very possible I've lost my marbles  , BUT it seems to me that this dynamic is in play now.   At least with the 50% criteria in place they can't just fly off the map at 20% like now.   In Dave's mission maps, once you have them at less than 50% (and no ability to repair) they could only disengage by trying to run off his new huge map.   I don't see that being successful very often.

As for what missions and their criteria you use on a server you admin, I am always fully supportive of you picking what you want.  As a player only, my vote is cast by my decision to spend or not spend any time flying on the server.   I'm just voicing my opinion now, so that I would not be a surprise.   

Then again, we are still just batting the idea around before it's really ever been put into play.

[Dizzy]

Then again, we are still just batting the idea around before it's really ever been put into play.

Yeah, you'e right. At least we gave dave 4 variations to play with. So we will test and see what arises. Overall, I think it's a FEATURE!!!

[GDA-Agave]

OK, just to organize my brain as to which variations to try and supply for experimentation/playtesting
(the idea is I'll do a skirmish script and dyna script for each, maybe a multiplayer as well)

 1. the current one that allows combat warping, but modded to disable whatever arming/tractor exploits I can
 2. one that allows going to warp but not dropping back out (i.e. once you go to warp you're leaving, but you still have to navigate off the map)
 3. one with a disengage button that ends the mission (for you at least) but requires you to be at speed 27 (or whatever) to  do it
 4. one with a disengage button that ends the  mission (again, for you) but using the 50+% engine requirement

There might be scripting complications with 3 and 4 if you're leaving a live wing behind, but we'll burn those bridges when we get there.

Nice summary.   Idea 2 with criteria from 3 or 4 would be awesome.   First, its determines if you can go to warp.  If you can, warp off the map but still having to navigate any obstacles.   Oh, to not be the first player to warp into something bad.   That's all I ask for.  DOH!!

Variations of 1 or 2 can be done for special cases such as the andros.  Maybe we can add another designator in the Role category, such as "W" to indicate ships that are capable of  combat warping?

Look a whole new arena to argue about ships and balancing issues.   I'm so excited.   Dave you rock!!! 

[NuclearWessels]

...   I'm so excited.   Dave you rock!!! 

I can't take much credit - the tactical warping has been around in Tracey's and el-Karnak's missions for a long time.  The combination with big maps just seems to have triggered a lot of interest this time around!

thanks though
dave

EDIT: and absolutely, options 1 & 2 still need to be under some form of restrictions as per 3 & 4.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Ugh... just thought of something.... how much damage do you take from 'space dust' at spd 125+?!?!?!?!?!?

[762_XC]

Why do I picture J'inn J'inning himself every time he goes to warp?

[Dizzy]

One of every 10 or so maps needs an edge with a LOT of rocks... hehehehehe.

[NuclearWessels]

OK, I haven't had much time to test these, but I won't get a chance to work on 'em for a few days so you folks might as well have a bang at 'em

I've changed the script names to be a bit more descriptive,

Met_ED5WarpCombat.scr for option (1)
Met_ED5WarpDisengage.scr for option (2)
Ski_EDWarpCombat.scr for the skirmish version of (1)
Ski_EDWarpDisengage.scr for the skirmish version of (2)
Mul_EDWarpCombat.scr for the multiplayer version of (1)
Mul_EDWarpDisengage.scr for the multiplayer version of (2)

http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe

The changes made are as follows:

In option 1 (warp up and down in combat), while at/prepping for warp speeds your ability to target opponents (plus other stuff) is turned off, so you shouldn't be able to tractor, fire drones etc.  It still doesn't address some of the repair/power items though.

In option 2 (warp leading to disengage) once you start going to warp (go to yellow alert at speed >= 20) you are unable to reverse the process - after 30 seconds at yellow alert you'll jump to warp 5 and immediately go to green alert, and after another 30 seconds you'll automatically jump to warp 7.   I think I've disabled your ability to switch back to red alert and/or target folks etc, so it should be a one-way trip, but I really haven't tested it.

Have a play with them if you get the chance, let me know about all the hideous loopholes you find, and I'll get back to hacking on 'em asap.

thanks!
dave

[GDA-Agave]

Ugh... just thought of something.... how much damage do you take from 'space dust' at spd 125+?!?!?!?!?!?

Holy crap, Bearslayerman!!   I hadn't even thought about that!!   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

In late era, if  you engage full warp and set navigation to fly fast around a sun can you come out in early era again?

 

[Lieutenant_Q]

Without shields, you'll fry yourself before the clock even starts to turn backwards...and even if you could do it...I think your ship would be a target for the first Early Era Frigate that came along... 

[el-Karnak]

Okey-dey, messa make something too.  Here's a test Enemy Sweep Patrol mission that implements option 2 in a very short and sweet fashion.

http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warp.zip

Basically, you cannot engage warp drive until you exceed speed 23.  I chose speed 23 because it is 75% of max speed 31 and hopefully it's low enough for the early era ships to reach.

To engage warp drive, you hit the deep scanner button. You can hotkey it to 'w' as is done in SFC3 for tac. warp. It will only engage at above 23 otherwise you just get deep scanners.

The short and sweet part is that when you warp you will go out BSG-style which is an immediate accelaration to speed 1000 which is warp factor 2 using the Okuda scale for ST-TNG (also touted as most accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_factor)

With this Okuda scale warp factor 2 is:

Warp 2 10.079 c 3.0x106 km/s w10 / 3

and am using SFC speed 100 as the basis for warp factor 1 or just 1 c. So, (SFC speed 100) * (10.079) = approx 1000 SFC speed.

When you goto warp the ship powers down to green alert, and at in-game speed 1000 you won't have much time to do anything because you cannot pull out of warp once engaged.

Please note that the randomized map terrain features are active in this mission so watch out for planets, asteroids, fissures, pulsars, etc. before you warp out.  I have not dealt with the time warp feature or enlarging the map yet cuz it's getting late. Will work on that on the weekend. Oh yeah, the prestige awards are wonky too for "mission incomplete" so please ignore. Just working with warp features here.

This mission is a WIP regarding warp feature based on feedback in this thread. Will add warp-activation delays (if warranted), voice-overs, etc. as the testing phase matures.

PS. Many thanks to XenoCorp for hosting my whacky scripts.

[[KBF]MuadDib]

very cool...look forward to having at go at the scripts this weekend...

[NuclearWessels]

In late era, if  you engage full warp and set navigation to fly fast around a sun can you come out in early era again?

 

LOL - I was thinking about that last night, wondering about creating a novelty time-travel script

I was also thinking about a mission with some kind of space rift - normal speed rules apply, except if you dive your ship into the fissure it briefly accelerates to high warp speeds for a short burst.

I was also thinking about a mission that would be a mini-campaign within a mission (really more suitable for single-player mode).  In this, the mission would allow combat warping, and would start with you, a base, one or two friendly ships, and a dozen or so civillian craft scattered around the map.   A couple of pirates and a few enemy ships would then be randomly placed on the map, preying on the civillian ships and/or the base.  Because the map is so big, it would likely be 5 to 10 minutes before any of them made contact with various targets around the map, and you'd have to try and warp your way around, eliminating threats as best you could to protect as many civillians as possible.

A PvP variant might be to have a half dozen of your listening posts and a half dozen enemy listening posts scattered on the map, you and your enemy are trying to wipe out the opponent's posts and each other.  You wouldn't know where your enemy was until they came within range of one of your posts (or you), so it could come out as a bit of hide and strike.

dave

[NuclearWessels]

Whoops!  Fixed the briefing message for the "option 2" versions, so you know which kind of mission you're getting into

Also added the skirmish version of option 2.

dave

[Hexx]

In late era, if  you engage full warp and set navigation to fly fast around a sun can you come out in early era again?

 

LOL - I was thinking about that last night, wondering about creating a novely time-travel script

I was also thinking about a mission with some kind of space rift - normal speed rules apply, except if you dive your ship into the fissure it briefly accelerates to high warp speeds for a short burst.

dave

Make them indistinguishable from black holes for extra fun!

[FPF-DieHard]

Karnak, Dave, can you guys make Skirmish missions available so we can screw arouns with this on IP games tonight?

[NuclearWessels]

Karnak, Dave, can you guys make Skirmish missions available so we can screw arouns with this on IP games tonight?

<cough>

Met_ED5WarpCombat.scr for option (1)
Met_ED5WarpDisengage.scr for option (2)
Ski_EDWarpCombat.scr for the skirmish version of (1)       <=== Skirmish mission
Ski_EDWarpDisengage.scr for the skirmish version of (2)   <=== Skirmish mission

http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/warpmissions.zip

Though admittedly I didn't post the second skirmish mission 'til this morning

EDIT: I've added multiplayer versions also (with capture supported) but those are TOTALLY untested
Mul_EDWarpCombat.scr
Mul_EDWarpDisengage.scr


dave

[Klingon Fanatic]

 

Thank you Nuclear Wessels and El-Karnak.

Pardon the OLD in game pic.

Where are the updated scripts again?

How about a SFC1 Repair Rondevous for OP please???

Qapla!

KF

[el-Karnak]

Thank you Nuclear Wessels and El-Karnak.

Pardon the OLD in game pic.

Where are the updated scripts again?

How about a SFC1 Repair Rondevous for OP please???

Qapla!

KF

http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warp.zip

This mission can run in a single-player campaign dyna or a reg. D2 dyna.

Will be working in putting a big map and skirmish missions this weekend.

[KBF-Kurok]

Dang im glad to see this stuff. Karnak And ed both working on scripts at the same time this is so cool thanks for all the hard work guys

[NuclearWessels]

Where are the updated scripts again?

here are mine: http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe


dave

[NuclearWessels]

...
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warp.zip

This mission can run in a single-player campaign dyna or a reg. D2 dyna.

Will be working in putting a big map and skirmish missions this weekend.

Coolness - say, let me know if you find the ascii map works out for you at dimensions bigger than 256x256 chars - I'm wondering if Taldren has hardcoded something there.  I've tried a couple of larger ones, but those have crapped out in weird and wonderful ways.

dave

[FPF-DieHard]

I found another Exploit.  A Ship at warp can cut all power to engines and mantain speed.  A Mauler ship can go to warp, put all power to batteries, and recharge the mauler at speed 125!!!!   

Any way to prevent batteries from charging while at warp?

[el-Karnak]

...
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warp.zip

This mission can run in a single-player campaign dyna or a reg. D2 dyna.

Will be working in putting a big map and skirmish missions this weekend.

Coolness - say, let me know if you find the ascii map works out for you at dimensions bigger than 256x256 chars - I'm wondering if Taldren has hardcoded something there.  I've tried a couple of larger ones, but those have crapped out in weird and wonderful ways.

dave

One issue that kept me up late last night was the fact that this call ship->mGetHealthOnSystem(HardPoint) and ship->mGetMaxHealthOnSystem(hardpoint) kept crashing. I was surprise cuz the get status calls on stores always worked. If these 2 functions don't work then we will never be able to figure out engine damage.

[FPF-DieHard]

Observation:

The Warp speed ain't fast enough.   These maps are huge, maby go with speed 216 (Warp 6) and 512 (Warp .

The time taken to accelerate to warp speed "feels" a little long but I guess that will prevent abuse from using it too "Tactically" in Combat.

This is VERY interesting, almost like we have a new game on our hands   

[KBF-Kurok]

Dave while playing the disengagment on (skirmish) i noticed that you could  drop out of warp.just turn your speed down to 0 and wait. Dont know why any one would do this tho because you cant get back to yellow or red alert or go back into warp.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Well, this looks like an interesting thread

[NuclearWessels]

Well, this looks like an interesting thread

GREAT TO SEE YA TRACEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dave

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Well, this looks like an interesting thread

GREAT TO SEE YA TRACEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dave

Thanks Dave... ;-)

This is a very long thread, can someone summarise for me? Any coding issues?

[NuclearWessels]

Lesseee ... we've been trying very large maps (around 2500x2500 instead of the usual 350x350) and letting players go to tactical warp either (a) strictly to disengage from a mission, or (b) to zip around the map during combat

The big issues code side have been tracking the current state of the player ship (must have enough engine power and sufficient speed built up to jump to the next warp speed) and disabling weaponry, repairs, recharging etc so the player can't effectively use the high-warp time to rearm then drop out of warp and clobber someone.

What has it involved ... turning off the ability to repair, tractor, load weapons, fire drones or other weapons ... then turn them back on once the player drops back down to combat speeds.  We've been toying with forcing the player to drop to lower alert status (yellow/green) for a time while they prep to go to warp.

So far most of it seems fairly mechanical, just getting all the pieces in the right order.   There are a couple of glitches still to be solved:
  - determining if a ship is at it's maximum attainable speed before jumping to the next warp speed (without reading the shiplist and computing the ship's speed manually I haven't seen a way to do this)
  - repairing a weapon automatically starts arming it even at green alert, haven't instituted a good cure for this yet
  - when we've sent a player's ship to high warp speed they can manually set their speed lower (to use the engine power for something else) and the current implementation allows this (maybe I'll just stick in a cludge that automatically resets their engine speed whenever they try that)

I think those are the biggies script side ... the gameplay issues that come out of this are another kettle of fish entirely

PS - I sent you an email about what that #$%@ hotmail did to the attachment (ARRRRRRGGGGGGHH!!!!!!)

dave

[NuclearWessels]

....

One issue that kept me up late last night was the fact that this call ship->mGetHealthOnSystem(HardPoint) and ship->mGetMaxHealthOnSystem(hardpoint) kept crashing. I was surprise cuz the get status calls on stores always worked. If these 2 functions don't work then we will never be able to figure out engine damage.

Arrrrrggggggh!!!!    Same here - regardless of the hardpoint chosen I'm getting a crash on those.   Bummer - I'd assumed that since the stores version worked so did the damage version (stupid me).

If that's the case then we might be stuck with saying you have to get to speed X first.

dave

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Lesseee ... we've been trying very large maps (around 2500x2500 instead of the usual 350x350) and letting players go to tactical warp either (a) strictly to disengage from a mission, or (b) to zip around the map during combat

Fascinating. The thing is, you can't turn the ship beyond about speed 50, I think. Would be fun in an asteroid field. lol

The big issues code side have been tracking the current state of the player ship (must have enough engine power and sufficient speed built up to jump to the next warp speed) and disabling weaponry, repairs, recharging etc so the player can't effectively use the high-warp time to rearm then drop out of warp and clobber someone.

I havent seen the API for nearly a year and unfortunately I dont have it installed on my system at the moment, but from memory I think the ship->mSetStatus() function doesnt work. Getting hardpoint health and maximum is also a problem because I think the functions werent updated from EAW (they are still expecting the EAW enumerated type and OP has a lot more hard points). Worth a try experimenting to see if you can get the functions to work with other hard points. If so, then write a simple function that converts the enumberated type to the expected, this was necessary with the hull class enumerated type (you'll know what I mean when you see my script code)

What has it involved ... turning off the ability to repair, tractor, load weapons, fire drones or other weapons ... then turn them back on once the player drops back down to combat speeds.  We've been toying with forcing the player to drop to lower alert status (yellow/green) for a time while they prep to go to warp.

Getting and setting spares works. When a ship goes to warp, record the number of spares it has then set it to zero, when they exit warp, restore the previous value, that should stop repairs in warp, unless the player starts a repair before going into warp, but then at the most they can only repair one hard point.

So far most of it seems fairly mechanical, just getting all the pieces in the right order.   There are a couple of glitches still to be solved:
  - determining if a ship is at it's maximum attainable speed before jumping to the next warp speed (without reading the shiplist and computing the ship's speed manually I haven't seen a way to do this)

Tough one, would need to look in the API for that one

  - repairing a weapon automatically starts arming it even at green alert, haven't instituted a good cure for this yet

I think there's a mSetWeaponStatus function (or something like that), but I dont think it works

  - when we've sent a player's ship to high warp speed they can manually set their speed lower (to use the engine power for something else) and the current implementation allows this (maybe I'll just stick in a cludge that automatically resets their engine speed whenever they try that)

From memory, I think there is mSetSpeed, and mSetImmediateSpeed (or something like that), the former sets the ships speed selector, the latter changes the ships speed immediately. While in warp, you could  trigger a timer to go off every second to set the ship speed selector to maximum, not a very good way of doing it though.

I think those are the biggies script side ... the gameplay issues that come out of this are another kettle of fish entirely

PS - I sent you an email about what that #$%@ hotmail did to the attachment (ARRRRRRGGGGGGHH!!!!!!)

dave

I resent the email to your home email :-)

[NuclearWessels]

Coolness!  Thanks Tracey - I'll try out the idea of a translator from the OP to EAW hardpoints and see how that goes.

The players start out in a vast tract of empty space -- a good distane from terrain -- if they go to wrp they've been warned to take a careful look ahead and keep their eyes peeled

I was hoping to avoid monkeying with the player's spares as a means of avoiding the repair issue, but since turning the repair officer off didn't help ...

Cool ideas, thanks muchly!

dave

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

I think the repair officer only works for AI

[el-Karnak]

Observation:

The Warp speed ain't fast enough.   These maps are huge, maby go with speed 216 (Warp 6) and 512 (Warp 8 ).

The time taken to accelerate to warp speed "feels" a little long but I guess that will prevent abuse from using it too "Tactically" in Combat.

This is VERY interesting, almost like we have a new game on our hands   

OK, we now need to get some speed terms straight if we are going to be realistic about implementing warp-outs.

As you may have noticed in the above posts I have been doing some research into how to fit all these warp specs. in the game. First, we need to use the Okuda Warp Factor tables because they are the most canon and fit in with both the TOS and TNG series. Info on this can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_factor

Basically, the Okuda scale uses the following equation:  speed in C = (warp factor)^(10/3) for warp factors 1 thru 9. Then an asymptotic scale is used for 9 thru 10 where warp factor 10 is the highest attainable velocity. Anything faster requires a Borg trans-warp drive. Some examples are:

1) Fight of the Phoenix in 2063 AD achieve warp factor 1 which is (1)^(10/3) = 1C

2) Rommies warp tech. were stuck at warp factor 3 until Klingon assistance in 2260s which is (3)^(10/3) = approx 39C.
(Fictional distance between Romulus and Earth according to "Star Trek: Star Charts" is 50 light-years and this fact stands up with any references in Star Trek: Enterprise. So, a Rommie WB at warp factor 3 = 39C (and, yes Scotty was most definitely drunk-on-the-job when he said the WB could only go sub-light) would take about 467 days to reach Earth so this keeps the Rommies away from Earth until the TOS era, but it's feasible for them to sneak in a spy or two to Vulcan like was done in StarTrek:Enterprise season 4).

3)  Star Trek: Enterprise's premise is about the discovery of the warp 5 engine which is (5)^(10/3) = 214C. This means that during the Earth-Romulan War of 2156-60 Earth vessels could go the 50 light-years to Romulus in about 85 days
So, it fits with this war being pre-dominantly in Romulan space.

4) Kronos is approx. 75 light-years from Earth (cf. "Star Trek: Star Charts" ) and in the TOS era most ships were topping out at warp 6  or warp 7 which is (6)^(10/3) = approx 392C or (7)^(10/3) = 656C. This means travel time for Kirk from Earth to Kronos about 70 days which fits with the going-ons of the TOS era.

5) In the TNG era, there is a reference from Janeway  stating that TOS era ships could only go half-speed of TNG era ships. What she is referring to is that TNG ships top out at warp 8 to 9. So, warp 8 is ( 8 )^(10/3) = 1024C (a little ironic for us programmers ).  Warp 6 at 392C is definitely less than half of warp 8 at 1024C.

6) Star Trek:Voyager's premise is about it taking 75 years for USS Voyager to travel 75,000 light-years from the far reaches of the Delta Quadrant to reach Federation which fits with USS Voyager doing an avg. of 1024C or warp 8 per year.

Then, there are the anomalies like Enterprise NX-01 going from Earth to Kronos in 4 days which is explained in "Star Trek:Star Charts" that the Vulcans found some sub-space corridors to help out, etc. Kirk going to the galactic core in Star Trek V is more sub-space stuff, etc. So, we just have to dispense with those exceptions in order to keep everything in order.

Next, we need to translate all this into the game speed used in the SFCOP missions. The SFCOP manual explicitly states in the glossary for the "Speed" entry that all combat is done at sub-light speeds which negates all the SFB warp factors 1,2, 3 at less that speed 31 stuff. In addition, the manual is very clear about 1 unit of speed takes the ship 10,000km per turn. So, what is a turn. At game speed 8, it is approx 30 seconds, At game speed 11 it is approx. 10 seconds.

You can then figure out what the SFC game speed should be for warp factor one by taking the classic physic equation of:

v = d / t.

So, at game speed 8, a ship is going :  v =  (10000KM) / (30 seconds) = 333333 m/s.  Compare this to the speed of light (ie. C = 3 x 10^8 m/s) and your ship is going (333333) / (3 x 10^8) = 0.0001111 C.

Not very fast is it?  You can invert this value ( 1 / 0.0001111) = 9000. 9000 would be warp factor 1 in the game when using game speed 8.

How about at game speed 11? Crunch the numbers:  v = (10000KM)/(10 seconds) = 1000000 m/s. Compare this to the speed of light (ie. C = 3 x 10^8 m/s) and your ship is going (1000000 ) / (3 x 10^8) = 0.0003333 C.

That's a little better. You can invert this value ( 1 / 0.0003333 ) = 3000. 3000 would be warp factor 1 in the game when using game speed 11.


To conclude: I am pretty much saying that it would be hard to accept any game speed less than 3000 as being "faster than the speed of light".  So, if  we are going to use the step ladder approach of going to speed 125  then 343, etc.  that's cool. However, just don't call it warp factor 5 and warp factor 7.  Warp factor 5 quotes as speed 125 is really something in the area of 40% (ie. using game speed 11) of the speed of light.


Going speed 9000 is probably too fast to goto warp, so I will go with speed 3000 and just explain the game speed difference between 8 and 11 as some voodoo time dialation stuff. If I need to bump it down somemore then I will put more pins in the warp speed voodoo doll, but I don't think we can go lower than speed 2000 in-game and still call it FTL travel.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Thank you for the dissertation....

I always hated the SFB combat at warp speed thing... by the time you said, "Fire" the ship would be out of range at warp speeds....

[Hexx]

Thank you for the dissertation....

I always hated the SFB combat at warp speed thing... by the time you said, "Fire" the ship would be out of range at warp speeds....

SFB has never really done anything that makes any sort of sense as background info..

[el-Karnak]

Thank you for the dissertation....

I always hated the SFB combat at warp speed thing... by the time you said, "Fire" the ship would be out of range at warp speeds....

Yeah, Kirk having drunken Scottish engineers can wreak so much havoc.

[FPF-DieHard]

Thank you for the dissertation....

I always hated the SFB combat at warp speed thing... by the time you said, "Fire" the ship would be out of range at warp speeds....

Agreed, the time distortion thingy was simply retarted.

SFC combat it at impulse, for easy of use and to prevent my head from explding from reading Karnak's post again, I think we should go with speed 100 being the speed of light.   Speed 200 for Yellow allet, 800 for Green should work on these maps.

PS I found another exploit, it you hit "Red Alert" EXACTLY when the ship accelerates to warp,  your weapons will start to arm while you mantain the high speed.   Timing this is very difficult but still possible.

[el-Karnak]

Thank you for the dissertation....

I always hated the SFB combat at warp speed thing... by the time you said, "Fire" the ship would be out of range at warp speeds....

Agreed, the time distortion thingy was simply retarted.

SFC combat it at impulse, for easy of use and to prevent my head from explding from reading Karnak's post again, I think we should go with speed 100 being the speed of light.   Speed 200 for Yellow allet, 800 for Green should work on these maps.

PS I found another exploit, it you hit "Red Alert" EXACTLY when the ship accelerates to warp,  your weapons will start to arm while you mantain the high speed.   Timing this is very difficult but still possible.

Speed of Light would have to be in the 3000 plus range. Lower to 2000 if we have to. You can use speed 100, 200, and 800. but call it 1/4 impluse power, 1/3 impluse power , 3/4 impulse power or 1/3000C, 200/3000C, 800/3000C or whatever  sub-FTL term speed you like. In the ST movies, they loved to use 1/4, 1/2 impluse power like in Star Trek III when the Enterprise and Excelsior are leaving space-dock.

In SFC3 there are ship that can go speed 100 so we have to keep that in mind to make a lasting realistic speed standard regarding FTL travel. We should also try to figure out what in-game speed Taldren used for SFC3 tac. warp.

[FPF-DieHard]

What was "Warp" in SFC3, 200?

[el-Karnak]

What was "Warp" in SFC3, 200?

If you use my test warp mission that posted, the ship will go speed 1000. That feels a bit slower than the tac.warp used in SFC3. 2000 is my guess right now without running some SFC3 tests.

[Hexx]

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking ..well OK I could never hate myself..
but why do we care?

Let's call it "mommy" speed (I believe coined by J'inn)  and leave it at that

[FPF-DieHard]

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking ..well OK I could never hate myself..
but why do we care?

Let's call it "mommy" speed (I believe coined by J'inn)  and leave it at that

Speed 3000 Definately works as "Ludicrous" Speed 

[el-Karnak]

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking ..well OK I could never hate myself..
but why do we care?

Let's call it "mommy" speed (I believe coined by J'inn)  and leave it at that

If we start using warp-out missions then we are going to want to get the speed terms right cuz these scripts may be around long time after the scripters that wrote them  have stopped doing maint. work on them.

[el-Karnak]

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking ..well OK I could never hate myself..
but why do we care?

Let's call it "mommy" speed (I believe coined by J'inn)  and leave it at that

Speed 3000 Definately works as "Ludicrous" Speed 

In Einstein Physics (E = MC-squared) world, FTL travel is ludricous, so it's going to look ludricous.

I jus tried speed 3000 in-mission and when my ship went over the border I did not see any noticeable bump in velocity when Taldren has your ship really engage warp by crossing the Red Line so it looks like I am on the right track. Looks like I better dial it down.

Here's some scratch test scripts at 3 different in-game speeds for Warp Factor One to play with:

Warp Factor One at speed 2000:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat2000.zip

Warp Factor One at speed 1500:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat1500.zip

Warp Factor One at speed 1000:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat1000.zip

To goto warp one:

1) goto speed 24 or more
2) Hit deep scan button.

[NuclearWessels]

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking ..well OK I could never hate myself..
but why do we care?

Let's call it "mommy" speed (I believe coined by J'inn)  and leave it at that

Speed 3000 Definately works as "Ludicrous" Speed 

Oh my god - they've gone plaid!

[el-Karnak]

Just for kicks and giggles:

Warp One at speed 3000:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat3000.zip

Warp One at speed 9000 (this one is a real riot!!):
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat9000.zip

[Dizzy]

Well written on the warp speed dissertation. I enjoyed reading that, quite informative and you worked out the basics fairly well. All discrepancies aside with how SFB/SFC and the canon warp goes, we need a 'playable' warp factor. I think more thought needs to go into it, but will it be used tactically, strategically, or simply for disengagement? Once we figure that out we need to look at lag, sync and other issues that may affect speed... in addition to possible steering issues which become difficult the faster you go, so playability comes to bear again.

I think the upper limit on speed should be 1000. Imo, tho, thats too fast.

[el-Karnak]

Thanks.

I would only use FTL  Warp One plus speed for dis-engagement only in SFCOP unless you are playing Andros. Then Andros can use tac. warp speed from SFC3 in the 2000 range. Andro DisDev is supposed to look instantaneous anyway.

Best, I can tell after a lot of speed tests is that Taldren set the warp disengagement speed for a ship that crosses the red-line at somewhere in the 2000 to 3000 range, so I am thinking Warp Factor One is between 2000 and 3000.

The sub-FTL speeds at yellow alert will work. I think you would not want to get within, at the most, 50% of the FTL speed cuz of time dialation issues in the Einstein-physics domain. So, if speed 3000 is Warp One then I would not go over 1000 or 1500 at the most for those yellow alert impluse speed settings.


I updated all the speed test scripts to use a map that is 5 times larger than the original EEK Patrol map. It only works in empty space hexes.

Warp Factor One at speed 2000:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat2000.zip

Warp Factor One at speed 1500:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat1500.zip

Warp Factor One at speed 1000:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat1000.zip

Just for kicks and giggles:

Warp One at speed 3000:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat3000.zip

Warp One at speed 9000 (this one is a real riot!!):
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warponeat9000.zip

To engage Warp Factor One:
1) goto speed 24 or more
2) Hit deep scan button.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

SFC combat it at impulse, for easy of use and to prevent my head from explding from reading Karnak's post again, I think we should go with speed 100 being the speed of light.

Speed 1 is the speed of light.   Learn it, live it, love it.   

Kirk was certainly able to tell Sulu to fire many times while traveling at warp before the enemy was out of range.  Be like Kirk.

-S'Cipio

[FPF-DieHard]

New Exploit!!!!!

I just did a HET at "Warp" Speed (125)   

More I think about this, we may just need a "house" rule to prevent the use of this in combat, warp should only be used for disengagemnt.

[Dfly]

Perhaps someone should mention to us other poor sobs who have not figured it out yet:  Where to put those downloads and how to get them working on our systems?

If it a very complicated matter, no need to put it here, but if it is simple enough perhaps some others may wish to test this?

[Dizzy]

New Exploit!!!!!

I just did a HET at "Warp" Speed (125)   

More I think about this, we may just need a "house" rule to prevent the use of this in combat, warp should only be used for disengagemnt.

LoL, I do this on standard scripts, just before I warp off, I Het and turn back into the map for a last shot. Gotta watch for rocks tho. 

[Hexx]

Perhaps someone should mention to us other poor sobs who have not figured it out yet:  Where to put those downloads and how to get them working on our systems?

If it a very complicated matter, no need to put it here, but if it is simple enough perhaps some others may wish to test this?

Put the missions (*.scr) in the assets/scripts folder.
You can select the ones called skirmish in SP.

[Dfly]

Did so, done so.  AS of yet there is only 1 I have been able to fly, by ED.  I will try renaming the others.

Renamed one other to the Ski_  , but no luck

[KBF-Crim]

New Exploit!!!!!

I just did a HET at "Warp" Speed (125)   

More I think about this, we may just need a "house" rule to prevent the use of this in combat, warp should only be used for disengagemnt.

Here I was thinking jousting...or how about a map where a race is run around nav gates...with collisions activated for that mission only....NASTREK

[FPF-DieHard]

New Exploit!!!!!

I just did a HET at "Warp" Speed (125)   

More I think about this, we may just need a "house" rule to prevent the use of this in combat, warp should only be used for disengagemnt.

Here I was thinking jousting...or how about a map where a race is run around nav gates...with collisions activated for that mission only....NASTREK

Sounds funny, but you can't turn at all over Speed 50

[Hexx]

New Exploit!!!!!

I just did a HET at "Warp" Speed (125)   

More I think about this, we may just need a "house" rule to prevent the use of this in combat, warp should only be used for disengagemnt.

Here I was thinking jousting...or how about a map where a race is run around nav gates...with collisions activated for that mission only....NASTREK

Sounds funny, but you can't turn at all over Speed 50

Unfortunately true.
Spd 125+ ESG slicing attacks are cool.
Spd 125+ ESG slicing attacks are not cool when the other guy fires plasma just before you hit them.

[el-Karnak]

Here are my latest two test scripts, but I still have to put in some activation delays for warp that would follow the same 20 second process used by the ship self-destruction method, instead after 20 seconds the ship would goto warp, not explode.

Meta campaign script for single-player campaign and dynaverse:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warp.zip

In this mission, ROM AI are not allowed to cloak, and ships will start at speed 7.

Skirmish mission:
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Ski_1Free4All_warp.zip

Both missions have audio playback based on race announcing warp drive activation and warp out sounds.  They use maps that are 5 times larger than the original EEK Patrol map. The BIG maps will work for all terrains in Kar_ePatrol_warp mission and in the empty space maps in Ski_1Free4All_warp mission. At speed 31, it would take a ship 15 minutes to exit the map, so you will definitely need to warp out of there.  

Once warp drive is engaged the ship will goto Green Alert status and it will be impossible to change back to yellow or red alert status. In addition, once warp drive is activated, it will not dis-engage.

To engage Warp Factor One:
1) goto speed 23.1 or more
2) Hit deep scan button.

[el-Karnak]

Perhaps someone should mention to us other poor sobs who have not figured it out yet:  Where to put those downloads and how to get them working on our systems?

If it a very complicated matter, no need to put it here, but if it is simple enough perhaps some others may wish to test this?

Put the missions (*.scr) in the assets/scripts folder.
You can select the ones called skirmish in SP.

Here's the real quick and dirty method to test out my warp-out test skirmish mission:

1)  Download the mission from:  http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Ski_1Free4All_warp.zip
2)  Extract Ski_1Free4All_warp.scr from the ZIP file.
3)  Goto your ../assets/scripts directory.
4)  Rename the original Taldren Ski_1Free4All.scr to Ski_1Free4All_bak.scr
5)  Take the downloaded Ski_1Free4All_warp.scr file and rename it to Ski_1Free4All.scr
6)  Copy this file to your ../assets/scripts directory.
7)  Start up the SFCOP game and choose a skirmish mission.

When in-mission, to engage Warp Factor One:
1) goto speed 23.1 or more
2) Hit deep scan button.

[NuclearWessels]

Did so, done so.  AS of yet there is only 1 I have been able to fly, by ED.  I will try renaming the others.

Renamed one other to the Ski_  , but no luck

Hmmm ... you got the latest download, with 6 missions plus an .mct file in the pack?
http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe

You shouldn't need to change any of the file names, just extract them into your Assets/Scripts folder, and two of them should automatically be offered in SP/Skirmish mode, with two others offered in enemy space if you fire up the klingon single player mini-campaign, and two others available if you go into multiplayer.

(Aside: changing the filenames along isn't enough to turn Mul/Met scripts into skirmish ones, so that wouldn't have worked anyway.)

dave

[NuclearWessels]

Here I was thinking jousting...or how about a map where a race is run around nav gates...with collisions activated for that mission only....NASTREK

LOL - I like it - maybe a skirmish mission with a legendary helm/nav officer so you get a little extra in the way of HETs

dave

[Dizzy]

Here I was thinking jousting...or how about a map where a race is run around nav gates...with collisions activated for that mission only....NASTREK

LOL - I like it - maybe a skirmish mission with a legendary helm/nav officer so you get a little extra in the way of HETs

dave

Trek hockey with a puck 

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

He shoots... HE SCOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NuclearWessels]

Trek hockey with a puck 

And a couple of speed 200 or so asteroid defensemen trying to play the trap

dave

[762_XC]

"Neutral zone trapping twat"

 

[FPF-Paladin]

This is frickin amazing stuff... soon as I get my monitor fixed (don't know if this one will handle games, damn it...) I'll catch some of you guys who are testing this out.

I don't know what the end result will be dyna wise, but the possibilities are exciting and open... go where no d2 has gone before.



... yes, kill me before I make another really bad joke.  Please.

[el-Karnak]

This is frickin amazing stuff... soon as I get my monitor fixed (don't know if this one will handle games, damn it...) I'll catch some of you guys who are testing this out.

I don't know what the end result will be dyna wise, but the possibilities are exciting and open... go where no d2 has gone before.



... yes, kill me before I make another really bad joke.  Please.

I thnk the major advancement that us humble scripters are trying to make on the dyna is to eliminate the dreaded "Red-Lines" from PvP play. We are doing this by make humungous maps and providing a "warp-out" mechanism to leave the map if you need to disengage from the mission, just as you would in the current missions by taco-belling across the red-lines.

[NuclearWessels]

OK, went with the self-extracting installer before the size of this thing starts to grow, here's the new link:
http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe
I think I've updated all my links in this thread to also point to it...

This ups the speed you accelerate to, updates some briefings, closes a couple of loopholes (not all of them) and adds two new missions, just to screw around with using the warp in combat.  They handle 3v3 drafting, though they're probably more appropriate for single-player. 

The new scripts are Met_EDWarpRaider.scr and Met_EDWarpADaysWork.scr, and they're the two sides of the following scenario:

 - 4 convoy ships, 3 defense platforms, and 3 friendly ships are scattered randomly across the map.
 - 3 enemy empire ships are randomly placed on the map.
 - 2 pirate ships, and a pirate base are randomly placed on the map.

Because of the size of the map, ships typically spawn more than 500 apart, and frequently you're at distance 600-800 from the nearest enemy. 

The convoy ships have preset headings and a speed of 10-12, and won't deviate from that.  AI ships that are hostile to one another will magically start heading for one another, although because the AI doesn't warp it will often take them a LONG time to find one another.

As the defender your problem is to find the 5 hostile ships and the pirate base and nuke them all.   The problem you're often faced with is which enemy to chase down while leaving the rest of the convoy/bases vulnerable to the other hostiles.

(Use the nearest enemy key, warp away, and odds are by the time you've killed the first one or two some of the others will have made contact with your allies, so you'll know where they are.)

As the attacker your problem is to find the 4 convoy ships, the 3 defense satellites, and the 3 defenders and nuke them all.  Same ideas apply.

There are undoubtedly some glitches and hiccups, but I wanted to experiment with a mission where the warp is actually useful/appropriate

So far, this usually seems to take 30-60 minutes to play out (though that was playing rom vs gorn, so will probably go a bit quicker with other race combinations).

dave

[NuclearWessels]

... is to eliminate the dreaded "Red-Lines" ...

Hey - this is starting to sound like hockey! 

Agreed though, that's definitely the most practical aspect of the process

dave

[el-Karnak]

... is to eliminate the dreaded "Red-Lines" ...

Hey - this is starting to sound like hockey! 

Agreed though, that's definitely the most practical aspect of the process

dave

If the NHL can get rid of the 2-line off-side pass rule then so can we.

[Dizzy]

If warp works, we may need to rethink sublight convoy raids. Possibly have the convoys moving between 2 planets or bases and your objective is to see them get there or blow em up b4 they get there. Mb even have the convoys carry cargo they will beam to their objective when they get there and either you blow em up, steal the cargo, or whatever... But no more sublight in the middle of no where... convoys wont do that anymore. They'd either be at warp 2-5 or sublight somewhere near their objective.

my 2 cents

[NuclearWessels]

If warp works, we may need to rethink sublight convoy raids. Possibly have the convoys moving between 2 planets or bases and your objective is to see them get there or blow em up b4 they get there. Mb even have the convoys carry cargo they will beam to their objective when they get there and either you blow em up, steal the cargo, or whatever... But no more sublight in the middle of no where... convoys wont do that anymore. They'd either be at warp 2-5 or sublight somewhere near their objective.

my 2 cents

Or sublight in an area where the terrain would make higher speeds dangerous (nebs, asteroid fields, etc)

dave

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

With all these big maps, and the potential to make some really long missions (like Dizzy's convoy raid idea)... instead of say running a dozen 2 minute patrols trying to flip a hex and pp farming... what if it was just one big long mission that paid out heaps and was a bit more interesting... could smooth out mission times between races... remove the monotany of the patrol mission... and add new life to the game. Imagine if every hex on the map had a maximum DV of 1... and taking one BIG BIG mission would flip it..

Just a thought... (it'll probably get bagged, but that happens)

[FPF-DieHard]

With all these big maps, and the potential to make some really long missions (like Dizzy's convoy raid idea)... instead of say running a dozen 2 minute patrols trying to flip a hex and pp farming... what if it was just one big long mission that paid out heaps and was a bit more interesting... could smooth out mission times between races... remove the monotany of the patrol mission... and add new life to the game. Imagine if every hex on the map had a maximum DV of 1... and taking one BIG BIG mission would flip it..

Just a thought... (it'll probably get bagged, but that happens)

It's an interting idea and you shoudl run with it.   Rip off missions fro game like Eve, make eveything not about pure comabt, boldly go where no scripter has gone before

[NuclearWessels]

That's more or less the lines I was working on with the "All in a Day's Work" mission a couple of posts back - you've got a bunch of things to juggle, and they're going to take time and a little thought.  If we mix in some non-combat goals/evaluations it could get fairly interesting
  - one or two of the civillian ships could be carrying high priority items, making them more "important" on some sliding scale
  - one of them could be carrying a bigwig who gets b*tchy if you get too far from him for too long
  - one of the enemies could be a big-name pirate, you get a bundle of extra prestige for whacking him, but it will mean chasing off into the boonies and leaving everything else unprotected for longer

etc etc etc

Having listening posts strung out in one of these missions actually makes them valuable, because you REALLY need the extra sets of eyes to pick up on where the enemy ships are.

Hell, maybe something akin to balance of terror, where you have a line of listening posts stretched out across this huge whack of space, and an enemy trying to sneak multiple ships through -- maybe trying to knock a couple of outposts offline and you have to judge which of the resulting holes they're trying to sneak the main fleet through.

Or have the trail of listening posts mark the trail that the convoy's follow -- that way they know there's a clear path ahead that's 200 wide.  The raider needs to decide where/when to try to jump the convoy to minimize the defender's chances to quickly react.

Deep strike missions could now involve fighting your way to and from the installation, possibly with restrictions in effect on the deep striker because they're trying to minimize the chances of bringing the entire defense fleet down on them ... a "Lone Gray Wolf" style of mission, where the escaping fleet is speed limited and has a helluva long way to go, but outguns what's trying to chase or intercept them...

We could make a GREAT Wyn cluster mission here ... we have this huge map that's entirely a nebula ...

We could have a border map where BOTH sides had a base or bats, way the hell apart from one another, and players would have to decide whether to go offensive or defensive ... (would have to work on the DV logistics and implications of that a bit)

As far as minimizing lag goes ... we could actually avoid generating AI on a chunk of the map until a ship got within range, allowing players to play out the map in segments, in whatever order they ran through things..

It really does open up a HUGE collection of possibilities, we're just barely scratching the surface so far!

EDIT: I'm going to have to wander back over to the DIP forum and round up Chuut and Corbo's assorted mission suggestions, as well as a lot of the SFB mini-campaign scenarios ... there are a lot of things that might get new life here.


dave

[FPF-DieHard]

Make most of these missions into AI-stripped patrols so if they trigger in a hot hex it will prevent t00l from whining. 

Though it might make for an interesting change in the Dynamic if the game were more focussed on this stuff tghan the strategic war.  We may actually have that "cold war" server

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

I've mentioned this ages ago... but if we had SQL, we could do a whole lot more too... mission scripts could send SQL queries to the server... move ships through wormholes from one side of the map to the other... genesis devices that create planets... starkiller torpedoes that turn stars into asteroids... even planet killers that break up planets...

Imagine a Doomsday Machine that actually destroyed planets as it wandered across the map... or a real Deep Space Nine that protected a wormhole...

[NuclearWessels]

Make most of these missions into AI-stripped patrols so if they trigger in a hot hex it will prevent t00l from whining. 

Though it might make for an interesting change in the Dynamic if the game were more focussed on this stuff tghan the strategic war.  We may actually have that "cold war" server

No sweat - I've put together two skeletons, one for the AI stripping missions and one for the "objectives" style of mission that require a variety of AI.

dave

[Dfly]

I got to fly a few missions on ED's combat at high speeds(250 and 500).  Here is a list of things I was still able to do while in higher speeds:

1-Fire all phasers at speeds 250 and 500(just had to turn them back on after hitting yellow or green alert)
2-Launch drones at speed 250, but not at 500
3-Launch shuttles at speeds 250 and 500, including scatterpacks,  forgot to try a ww
4-Multiple HETs, till I finally broke down(did 6 in a row)  While doing this, my Pirate ship never went below 66.7 % till it broke.  Even breaking did not slow me down till I broke 5 times and engines were too hurt.  I repaired engines, got speed to +20, hit green alert and went 500 immediately.  Tried red alert, slowed, hit green,no go.  Seems if you were in at 500 and lost engines(like engine doubling maybe?), then repaired them you could immediately go 500 again if you wish.

Now, pulling HETs at 500 is neet but unrealistic.  I would expect a ship would blow apart at that speed.  At the very least all life would be crushed by G-Force.

[NuclearWessels]

I've mentioned this ages ago... but if we had SQL, we could do a whole lot more too... mission scripts could send SQL queries to the server... move ships through wormholes from one side of the map to the other... genesis devices that create planets... starkiller torpedoes that turn stars into asteroids... even planet killers that break up planets...

Imagine a Doomsday Machine that actually destroyed planets as it wandered across the map... or a real Deep Space Nine that protected a wormhole...

Man, you should see the OCI (Online Campaign Interface) that Bonk had setup -- talk about sweet!  We just need to find a way to get him connected now that he's gone bush

dave

[NuclearWessels]

I got to fly a few missions on ED's combat at high speeds(250 and 500).  Here is a list of things I was still able to do while in higher speeds:

1-Fire all phasers at speeds 250 and 500(just had to turn them back on after hitting yellow or green alert)
2-Launch drones at speed 250, but not at 500
3-Launch shuttles at speeds 250 and 500, including scatterpacks,  forgot to try a ww
4-Multiple HETs, till I finally broke down(did 6 in a row)  While doing this, my Pirate ship never went below 66.7 % till it broke.  Even breaking did not slow me down till I broke 5 times and engines were too hurt.  I repaired engines, got speed to +20, hit green alert and went 500 immediately.  Tried red alert, slowed, hit green,no go.  Seems if you were in at 500 and lost engines(like engine doubling maybe?), then repaired them you could immediately go 500 again if you wish.

Now, pulling HETs at 500 is neet but unrealistic.  I would expect a ship would blow apart at that speed.  At the very least all life would be crushed by G-Force.

Heh, thanks Dfly - gives me a list of things to work on.  One thing I'm considering is allowing people to try this stuff at warp speed, but every time you do so there's a chance of a catastrophic breakdown.  (Basically because it's tough to prevent the actions scriptside, but you can detect some of it once it happens, and then...)

dave

[el-Karnak]

I am thinking that sub-light fast speeds at 125, 500, etc. are ideal for long storybook missions. Getting to work with SQL would make for fun multiple DV shifts.

For the regular patrols, a simple immutable dis-engagement pattern to simulate "crossing the red-line" in the regular missions should suffice. Or, do we want to give ships the ability to chase each other over a large map, while at Yellow Alert status, at sub-light fast speeds of 125, 500, 1000 in a PvP match? There would still be quick immutable warp-out disengagement option.

Break-downs at sub-light fast speeds sounds cool to me.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

I've mentioned this ages ago... but if we had SQL, we could do a whole lot more too... mission scripts could send SQL queries to the server... move ships through wormholes from one side of the map to the other... genesis devices that create planets... starkiller torpedoes that turn stars into asteroids... even planet killers that break up planets...

Imagine a Doomsday Machine that actually destroyed planets as it wandered across the map... or a real Deep Space Nine that protected a wormhole...

Man, you should see the OCI (Online Campaign Interface) that Bonk had setup -- talk about sweet!  We just need to find a way to get him connected now that he's gone bush

dave

Is any of that still around?

[NuclearWessels]

...

Is any of that still around?

Bonk was working on it right up until he left a couple of weeks back, but AFAIK he's got all the code and is pretty much unreachable.

dave

[NuclearWessels]

...

Break-downs at sub-light fast speeds sounds cool to me.

I was also thinking that if you take any damage while at these speeds then you should be more susceptibe to "critical hits"/breakdowns ...

dave

[IAF Lyrkiller]

Hey Dave, what are you going to do w/ the base and planetary assaults?

Curious KAT wants to know.

Also, the payout for these missions should be higher.

What say you?

[NuclearWessels]

Haven't quite figured what to do with the assaults, but you're right - the pp awards for these missions need to be a LOT higher.  Hmmm, might go do that now before I forget (again).

dave

[el-Karnak]

...

Break-downs at sub-light fast speeds sounds cool to me.

I was also thinking that if you take any damage while at these speeds then you should be more susceptibe to "critical hits"/breakdowns ...

dave

Most definitely.

When I test my warp-out missions, I always go right over the heads of the enemy AI and they always take a couple pot-shots at my warping ship which is involuntary set to Green Alert status.

That would be neat if a lucky shot or two knock it out of warp. I will put it in my next batch of test missions for all to try out.

[Riskyllama]

tracey check out the forge, alot of the stuff bonk was working on is incorporated into the latest webmap: race transfers, wormhole systems, full online shipyard, etc

[NuclearWessels]

Okeedokeeey, continuing the line of (very) beta script experimentation, here's the beginning of a "Lone Gray Wolf" style of scenario ... where you've just completed a raid deep behind enemy lines and are trying to get out.  You can't use the tactical warps, but the defenders can  and there is a specific section of the map edge you must disengage through to win.

It's added to the warp pack listed below
http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe
dave

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Oh hell yes!!

The ambush missions are worth something now... have the ambushers start at warp speed so they can actually get to the fight!!!

[NuclearWessels]

Oh hell yes!!

The ambush missions are worth something now... have the ambushers start at warp speed so they can actually get to the fight!!!

I'm also doing some playing with the cloak, to see if we can come up with a solid scenario where a smaller cloaked ship really can play hide and seek wearing down a larger force.  The idea is to prevent (within reason) ships from being able to detect the location of the cloaked ship through the use of the F11 and "nearest enemy" keys.   More word on that shortly (crosses fingers).

dave

[Klingon Fanatic]

It's added to the warp pack listed below

dave

I must be blind today... where's the link?

E-Karnak and Nuclear Wessels, thank you so much for recharging SFC: OP! The folks at Taldren should be thanking you too. In light of ST: Legacy Coming out you have essentially made SFC: OP almost a NEW game and the DYNAVERSE servers will be changing how games are played.

Well done sirs!

KF

[NuclearWessels]

It's added to the warp pack listed below

dave

I must be blind today... where's the link?
...

heh, whoops http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/EDWarpPatrols.exe

[el-Karnak]

It's added to the warp pack listed below

dave

I must be blind today... where's the link?

E-Karnak and Nuclear Wessels, thank you so much for recharging SFC: OP! The folks at Taldren should be thanking you too. In light of ST: Legacy Coming out you have essentially made SFC: OP almost a NEW game and the DYNAVERSE servers will be changing how games are played.

Well done sirs!

KF

Here are my latest two test scripts, but I still have to put in some activation delays for warp that would follow the same 20 second process used by the ship self-destruction method, instead after 20 seconds the ship would goto warp, not explode.

Meta campaign script for single-player campaign and dynaverse (title: Enemy Sweep Patrol):
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Kar_ePatrol_warp.zip

In this mission, ROM AI are not allowed to cloak, and ships will start at speed 7.

Skirmish mission (title: Hostile Skirmish (Warp-out) ):
http://www.eek-scripts.com/ftp/Ski_1Free4All_warp.zip

Both missions have audio playback based on race announcing warp drive activation and make warp out Whoosh!! sounds.  They use maps that are 5 times larger than the original EEK Patrol map. The BIG maps will work for all terrains in Kar_ePatrol_warp mission and in the empty space maps in Ski_1Free4All_warp mission. At speed 31, it would take a ship 15 minutes to exit the map, so you will definitely need to warp out of there.   

Once warp drive is engaged the ship will goto Green Alert status and it will be impossible to change back to yellow or red alert status. In addition, once warp drive is activated, it will not dis-engage.

To Install and get ready to play:
1) Extract ZIP file contents to your game's /assets/scripts folder.
2) Start up SFCOP game.
3) For skirmish mission, choose Skirmish.
4) For meta dyna mission, choose campaign and startup single-player campaign (ie. you have to edit your chosen campaign's MCT file to put in the "kar_epatrol_warp entry).

When in-mission, to engage Warp Factor One:
1) goto speed 23.1 or more
2) Hit deep scan button
3) Whoosh!!