Topic: DNLs: Besides the Fed, which ones are OTT?

[FPF-DieHard]

A lot of talk about DNLs being OTT espeically on the "Points at a time" servers where DNLs are seeing a lot more air-time.  In the Cost-of-Build systems, DNLs never got upgraded so spending too much money on them was silly as a DNL will always be a DNL, no refits until the Conjectual late-era DNMs . . .

But besides the Federation DNL which is ridiculously tough for it's FYA, which ones are OTT?  Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater by trashing a whole class of ships when only one maybe 2 need some small nerfing?

PS:  Yes the F-DVL is rediculous and should have major restricitions on it, I'm not talking about this one.

[762_XC]

OTT compared to what? Other DNL's?

[Hexx]

I think the Kzin,Klink,Rom and maybe Gorn are definetely.
All (seem ) to have comparable firepower to the regular DN with a better powercurve.
Lyran one (to me) is a toss up(although I believe FS liked it alot), Hydran one I'd say is better as well.
The Fed one is simply the one that gets noticed as it replaces a mediocre (at best)
DN with a DNL that is easily the best of the bunch.

[FPF-DieHard]

OTT compared to what? Other DNL's?

The other Capital ships respective to their FYA

[762_XC]

I don't think you can get rid of them unless you have a way of enforcing historical enemies.

What can a Paladin do against a Rom?

[Hexx]

I don't think you can get rid of them unless you have a way of enforcing historical enemies.

What can a Paladin do against a Rom?

From my understanding fly Gorn against them.

[762_XC]

Is that it then? Only the plasma dreads will be flown, and we'll all be content with that?

[Hexx]

<shrug> I think we should restrict the heavy metal and specialty ships of certain races to certain areas
Doesn't seem to be alot (or,well, any) support for it so..

[FPF-DieHard]

<shrug> I think we should restrict the heavy metal and specialty ships of certain races to certain areas
Doesn't seem to be alot (or,well, any) support for it so..

You are right, non-traditional enemies (and the ISC allied to anyone) causes pretty much all of the balance issue in this game.  But we have to deal with the reality of how D2 is usually setup as a "free for all."

Dude, I'm all for this and this but I'm not sure it is right for all servers.

That said, what DNLs besides the Fed are OTT?

[762_XC]

Depends on what crappy non-DNL dread you are flying.

A PAL- is so slow it can't do anything but castle. It might be able to handle a C5 but that's about it. The Lyran will pwn it, to say nothing of any plasma dread. The Fed of course will just laugh.

The Z-DN is probably better equipped to deal with the Lyran but still will have a tough time against plasma.

Not sure about the C8 or L-DN. I know neither is all that impressive with the power curve.

[Hexx]

<shrug> I think we should restrict the heavy metal and specialty ships of certain races to certain areas
Doesn't seem to be alot (or,well, any) support for it so..

You are right, non-traditional enemies (and the ISC allied to anyone) causes pretty much all of the balance issue in this game.  But we have to deal with the reality of how D2 is usually setup as a "free for all."

Dude, I'm all for this and this but I'm not sure it is right for all servers.

That said, what DNLs besides the Fed are OTT?

OTT is.. perhaps not the best word(s)- all of them are (for our purposes) superior compared to the regular DN
due to the increased powercurve. However all of them (I believe) actually lose a few pints of power.
Lyrans are (imo) kinda a trade off, (though FS I believe preferred teh DNL)
C5 I'd say is better,as is the LGE, I'd think the Kzin is another trade off, but noticed far mor Kzin DNL's
than DN's on the last few servers so I'd assume it's better as well.

[762_XC]

I guess the answer to the question is that they are all OTT when fighting non-historical enemies. On an F&E type server with staggered release dates or a Four Powers type setup you can do without them. Otherwise I think removing them will cause problems.

[Father Ted]

A lot of talk about DNLs being OTT espeically on the "Points at a time" servers where DNLs are seeing a lot more air-time.  In the Cost-of-Build systems, DNLs never got upgraded so spending too much money on them was silly as a DNL will always be a DNL, no refits until the Conjectual late-era DNMs . . .

But besides the Federation DNL which is ridiculously tough for it's FYA, which ones are OTT?  Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater by trashing a whole class of ships when only one maybe 2 need some small nerfing?

PS:  Yes the F-DVL is rediculous and should have major restricitions on it, I'm not talking about this one.

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

[Hexx]

A lot of talk about DNLs being OTT espeically on the "Points at a time" servers where DNLs are seeing a lot more air-time.  In the Cost-of-Build systems, DNLs never got upgraded so spending too much money on them was silly as a DNL will always be a DNL, no refits until the Conjectual late-era DNMs . . .

But besides the Federation DNL which is ridiculously tough for it's FYA, which ones are OTT?  Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater by trashing a whole class of ships when only one maybe 2 need some small nerfing?

PS:  Yes the F-DVL is rediculous and should have major restricitions on it, I'm not talking about this one.

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

?? What happened with teh DNH and BCG? look the same to me as they are in OP+ ..
and
Actually... I think pretty much everyone thinks a ship with the F- DNL's weapons,powercurve and FYA is OTT.
But constructive criticism is good too.

[Dizzy]

In all fairness FT, his shiplist gets flown on my servers and whoever else hosts one that likes what he's done. Some things I change. But your criticisms should be directed at the admin, not DH. He is a shiplist techie, not a server admin who decides to use these variants.

So tell me the problem with the BCG?

And the FDNH is the only ship, iirc, that has not had it's G racks nerfed. The DC was dropped from 12 to 6 as it should be and it was long overdue for the G rack fix because everything else in the shiplist has had it fixed.

Due to the nature of G racks, I'd be willing to have 2 variants of the DNH should DH's proposal not be acceptable. On the Romulan front, AMD racks would seldom be used so there would be 6 G racks and 3 ADD6. On the Klink front, AMD would be used more than a drone rack load and that variant would have 6 F racks and 3 ADD12. of course, DH's compromise is more generous than my 2 ideas, having 6 G racks and 2 ADD12.

Leaving the FDNH with 12 DC and 6 G racks and 3 ADD12 is absurd and way OTT.

[Dfly]

One of the biggest complaints against the Fed DNL is the fact that is has much more power than the other DNLs.  If you compare other class ships,(DD, CA, BCH), the Fed ships fall about the middle as per power on the ship.  The DNL is over all other race DNL ships in power, and by a few.  If the Fed DNL went down in power to roughly the middle of the pack, as other Fed ships are per their respective sizes, it would balance out much better.

The DNL ships dont match up in non-traditional matchups, but neither do most any size class in non-traditional matchups, so that should not be an issue.

Do the DNL ships outclass the regular DN ships? I believe they do.
Would lowering the repairs on them balance it out?  Perhaps, but I dont like that idea too much.
Would bumping up the year they come out by say 2 years fix it?  I think so, comments anyone.

[FPF-DieHard]

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

Ted, STFU and stay off the Alter wine.  Anything we've done int eh SGO BETA list is just that:  BETA.  We are testing things, nothing is written in stone.  The DNL is probrably never going to get touched.

The BCG is not broken with 6 Drone control.   It's not a drone ship, and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

As far as who made me "RM,"  RMs haven't had any say in shiplist desgin for 4 years.  Rememeber AOTK?

[FPF-DieHard]

Would bumping up the year they come out by say 2 years fix it?  I think so, comments anyone.

FYA tweaks seem like the most logical way to go with most stuff

[Hexx]

I think the DNL's could be somewhat fixe simply with fleeting rules
Say that you can't have more than one specialty and one metal in a fleet.
CAll the DNL as both a special and metal and it won't be able to wing with either.
DNL and two CS+ will still be nasty, but not as bad as 2xCF's or a CF and a plasma boat with them.

[FPF-DieHard]

I think the DNL's could be somewhat fixe simply with fleeting rules
Say that you can't have more than one specialty and one metal in a fleet.
CAll the DNL as both a special and metal and it won't be able to wing with either.
DNL and two CS+ will still be nasty, but not as bad as 2xCF's or a CF and a plasma boat with them.

I guess maybe fleeting rules should be the way to go with everything, this was no ships get modified and there is less bickering.

[Hexx]

I think the DNL's could be somewhat fixe simply with fleeting rules
Say that you can't have more than one specialty and one metal in a fleet.
CAll the DNL as both a special and metal and it won't be able to wing with either.
DNL and two CS+ will still be nasty, but not as bad as 2xCF's or a CF and a plasma boat with them.

I guess maybe fleeting rules should be the way to go with everything, this was no ships get modified and there is less bickering.

Plus of course I can claim I solved all the problems on the D2.

That's gotta get me a few freebies dwon at the pub.

[FPF-Paladin]

What can a Paladin do against a Rom?

Easy.  I can run the b*stard around the map, make him waste his plasma, and kick in a few shields for good measure...

Oh wait.  You mean the hydran ship don't you... 

hehe,

Yes.  Shameless post whore I am.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

Real feds fly a plasma boat 

Wouldn't "real Feds" fly the BCJ ?     Just kidding as I know the BCJ is a piece of crap.

[Hexx]

There has to be someone besides me who prefers the BCG... I mean you
all can't be that stupid...

[FPF-Paladin]

There has to be someone besides me who prefers the BCG... I mean you
all can't be that stupid...

You're right.  I'm probably stupider.. I have this love affair with the BCE

Hehe, I've flown the BCJ... dangerous thing to get in front of but after the first volley it's not great.  BCF... spent a loooot of time in one of those, as far as viable PvPers I can't imagine why you'd want a BCG instead.

Getting OT though...

I'd like to see the FYA changed but that's probably it.  It's too hard to prune some ships in some eras and not others.. like say the entirety of the ISC

[Father Ted]

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

Ted, STFU and stay off the Alter wine.  Anything we've done int eh SGO BETA list is just that:  BETA.  We are testing things, nothing is written in stone.  The DNL is probrably never going to get touched.

The BCG is not broken with 6 Drone control.   It's not a drone ship, and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

As far as who made me "RM,"  RMs haven't had any say in shiplist desgin for 4 years.  Rememeber AOTK?

The "G" in BCG stands for guided missile in case you forgot, arsehole. If we have to alter Klink ships to make them more competitive, let's fix the BCG while we're at it. And no, I will not STFU on this. 

[GDA-Agave]

The Gorn DNL is certainly not OTT.  Its basicly a CCH on a bigger hull.   Sure it's got a nice powercurve, but it can be beaten like most plasma ships.

Now, saying that, I do think it should be restricted by fleeting rules like any other Gorn DN.

[Hexx]

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

Ted, STFU and stay off the Alter wine.  Anything we've done int eh SGO BETA list is just that:  BETA.  We are testing things, nothing is written in stone.  The DNL is probrably never going to get touched.

The BCG is not broken with 6 Drone control.   It's not a drone ship, and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

As far as who made me "RM,"  RMs haven't had any say in shiplist desgin for 4 years.  Rememeber AOTK?

The "G" in BCG stands for guided missile in case you forgot, arsehole. If we have to alter Klink ships to make them more competitive, let's fix the BCG while we're at it. And no, I will not STFU on this. 

?? Am I missing something?
BCG has 4 racks and 6 control in SFB, and 4 racks and 6 control in the shiplist..

[Capt Jeff]

There has to be someone besides me who prefers the BCG... I mean you
all can't be that stupid...

BCG is mediocre at best.   Not enough of anything to be a threat.  Power curve is not good, though, save the BCE, is best for Feds.  BCJ is a waste of time.  Maybe if it had, say 44 power  .    And it comes out so late, it's funny.  BCE is too late as well.  Maybe with some drone defense, it could work.   Whenever I fly a Fed BCH (which is rare on a rules heavy campaign), I'll stick with a BCF.

The DNL must be OTT, it's just fun to fly, which can't be good 

[FPF-DieHard]

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

Ted, STFU and stay off the Alter wine.  Anything we've done int eh SGO BETA list is just that:  BETA.  We are testing things, nothing is written in stone.  The DNL is probrably never going to get touched.

The BCG is not broken with 6 Drone control.   It's not a drone ship, and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

As far as who made me "RM,"  RMs haven't had any say in shiplist desgin for 4 years.  Rememeber AOTK?

The "G" in BCG stands for guided missile in case you forgot, arsehole. If we have to alter Klink ships to make them more competitive, let's fix the BCG while we're at it. And no, I will not STFU on this. 

Glad to see we are both keeping our sense of humor.  The Drone control in SFB is 6, it's not broken. 

Wanna fly a BCG with 12 Drone control?  Wait until 2283, it comes with F14s also 

[Dizzy]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

[Icehawk]

i enjoy all these warfare lol to a point hehe but did the pilots of the p-51 say now wait we cant fly it its better than the 109 lets go back to the old piece of junk we were flyn to balance

[762_XC]

Ted, keep it cool please.

[el-Karnak]

and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

Real feds fly a plasma boat 

Wouldn't "real Feds" fly the BCJ ?     Just kidding as I know the BCJ is a piece of crap.

F-BCF is my favorite Fed ship, but I also come from an ISC background where Plasma torps are more prevalent. The ship has an awesome alpha strike with 4 x O/L Photons (4 * 16 = 64 pts.), 2 x Pla-F (2 * 20 = 40 pts.), 2 x DroneIV (2 * 24 = 48 pts), plus 10 x Phaser 1s with 8 firing forward.  This ships has very versatile array of armaments with Photons, Plasma torps, drone racks, AMDs, couple Phaser 3s, and lotsa Phaser 1s.

My F-BCF also helped blow up Dizzy. That counts for a lot of points too.

[Capt Jeff]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

[FPF-DieHard]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

the Klingons have a better BCH, the Feds a better Heavy Dread.  It's the circle of life . . .

I'm sure hexx can provide you with an itemized list of ships the balance tips slightly in the Fed's favor

[Hexx]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

the Klingons have a better BCH, the Feds a better Heavy Dread.  It's the circle of life . . .

I'm sure hexx can provide you with an itemized list of ships the balance tips slightly in the Fed's favor

You want the PDF or Word version?

BTW- I will be flying nothing other than a BCG on SS3 , and will easily demonstrate it's superiority over the C7 in every battle.

[FPF-DieHard]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

the Klingons have a better BCH, the Feds a better Heavy Dread.  It's the circle of life . . .

I'm sure hexx can provide you with an itemized list of ships the balance tips slightly in the Fed's favor

You want the PDF or Word version?

Excel, it's easier with nice alligned Collumns

[Riskyllama]

You want the PDF or Word version?

BTW- I will be flying nothing other than a BCG on SS3 , and will easily demonstrate it's superiority over the C7 in every battle.

PDF is fine for me.
Oh and if I tell you I'm in a C7, you'll come to me Hexx? This just keeps getting easier and easier.

[Dizzy]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

MAGIC PHOTONS! 

[FPF-DieHard]

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

I pilot who can read and count past 5 

[Dfly]

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

I pilot who can read and count past 5 

Just can't type 

[Father Ted]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

the Klingons have a better BCH, the Feds a better Heavy Dread.  It's the circle of life . . .

I'm sure hexx can provide you with an itemized list of ships the balance tips slightly in the Fed's favor

Can't allow that! We need to fix the the Fed DN's so it's more fair. And if you can radically alter the C8V to make it more competitive, even though it goes against SFB, falling back on SSD's to justify not fixing the BCG is a rather hollow excuse.

[Dfly]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

the Klingons have a better BCH, the Feds a better Heavy Dread.  It's the circle of life . . .

I'm sure hexx can provide you with an itemized list of ships the balance tips slightly in the Fed's favor

Can't allow that! We need to fix the the Fed DN's so it's more fair. And if you can radically alter the C8V to make it more competitive, even though it goes against SFB, falling back on SSD's to justify not fixing the BCG is a rather hollow excuse.

So you want us to dummy down the Fed DN instead of upping the C8V?

[Hexx]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

the Klingons have a better BCH, the Feds a better Heavy Dread.  It's the circle of life . . .

I'm sure hexx can provide you with an itemized list of ships the balance tips slightly in the Fed's favor

Can't allow that! We need to fix the the Fed DN's so it's more fair. And if you can radically alter the C8V to make it more competitive, even though it goes against SFB, falling back on SSD's to justify not fixing the BCG is a rather hollow excuse.

So you want us to dummy down the Fed DN instead of upping the C8V?

I still don't actually think Ted's mentioned what the issue is, other than
"DH is a bastard (true enough) neutered DNH blah blah BCG"

I know we're not best buds Ted, but it's Ok to share your feelings on what exactly is bothering you rather than just lashing out.

[Father Ted]

That's basically what's happening. The Fed DN's have been dumbed down while Klink carriers have gotten a booster seat. Now that I ask for a very minimal payback in giving the BCG 12 drone control, I'm treated like a leper who crashed the shiplist lovefest. Screwing with the F-DNL is the final straw. One can take only so many insults...

[Hexx]

That's basically what's happening. The Fed DN's have been dumbed down while Klink carriers have gotten a booster seat. Now that I ask for a very minimal payback in giving the BCG 12 drone control, I'm treated like a leper who crashed the shiplist lovefest. Screwing with the F-DNL is the final straw. One can take only so many insults...

Well.. objectively a DNL that is superior to pretty much every other DN until the DNH's arrive is probably a little more powerful than it should be.
And I believe ADB themselves have said thet Fed ships tend to be a bit better because they're what sell the game. (the Feds that is)
(- really kind ot, the man is amazingly blunt about why he does stuff, some of his forum replies are just cool. )

Anyway, I (personally) don't think a BCG with 12 control would be incredibly OTT, maybe it can be thrown in the next playtest.
Or set up a server with an admin that has the ships the way you want.

As for the insults, actually one can take quite a few of them...but then again I am pretty much better than the lot of you so..

[Father Ted]

BCG is mediocre at best. 

I have NEVER lost a BCG to a C7 captain in all the years I've been playing this game. C7 Captains are too used to flying against that BCF cheese boat to know what a real ship can do.

Please explain what gives you a advantage in a BCG vs C7 fight.

the Klingons have a better BCH, the Feds a better Heavy Dread.  It's the circle of life . . .

I'm sure hexx can provide you with an itemized list of ships the balance tips slightly in the Fed's favor

Can't allow that! We need to fix the the Fed DN's so it's more fair. And if you can radically alter the C8V to make it more competitive, even though it goes against SFB, falling back on SSD's to justify not fixing the BCG is a rather hollow excuse.

So you want us to dummy down the Fed DN instead of upping the C8V?

I still don't actually think Ted's mentioned what the issue is, other than
"DH is a bastard (true enough) neutered DNH blah blah BCG"

I know we're not best buds Ted, but it's Ok to share your feelings on what exactly is bothering you rather than just lashing out.

First of all, I doubt you ever won a match against a C7 in a BCG in PvP. That being said, I'm sick of the Feds having to make sacrifices for the good of the D2 community. We''ve sacrificed on Klink carriers, droners, Rom ships with D-Racks, and now we're being told that one of the few ships we still enjoy flying is OTT. It's gotten to the point I don't want to fly on a server run by Ditzy and DH because they seem hellbent on taking the fun out of flying Fed.

[Hexx]

Actually I have, at least 2x.
Mainly because I didn't do the "nancy-boy" proxy dance, closed with both to OL range and killed them.
Not saying I beat madelf here or something.

Second- are you actually saying the fun of flying Fed is having a DNL that thrashes any other piece of metal
until teh DNH's?
Or having a DNH that is immune for all intents and purposes to drones?

Because if it is, you should talk to Dizzy- he's got some killer Andro ships on his last servers.
Maybe you could volunteer to fly one of those.

If not, then maybe actually present your case, no offence - but you've now made 4 or 5 posts in this topic
and none really have set out what you'd like to see.
"DH screwed the Feds" isn't really helpful for seeing your point.
(and kinda laughable with his inclusion of those stupid CS's.. but anyway)

[FPF-DieHard]

First of all, I doubt you ever won a match against a C7 in a BCG in PvP. That being said, I'm sick of the Feds having to make sacrifices for the good of the D2 community. We''ve sacrificed on Klink carriers, droners, Rom ships with D-Racks, and now we're being told that one of the few ships we still enjoy flying is OTT. It's gotten to the point I don't want to fly on a server run by Ditzy and DH because they seem hellbent on taking the fun out of flying Fed.

This is priceless, the 2 Fed players with the most FEDERATION-flown kills on the last server are out to screw the Feds 

What is in that alter-wine anyway?

PS:  Real Roms fly hawks anyway 
   

[Hexx]

Oddly enough you both needed the DNL's to make those kills....

[FPF-DieHard]

Oddly enough you both needed the DNL's to make those kills....

Please, I just needed my Cheeasy A10s

[Hexx]

Oddly enough you both needed the DNL's to make those kills....

Please, I just needed my Cheeasy A10s

DVL then ... 

[FPF-DieHard]

Oddly enough you both needed the DNL's to make those kills....

Please, I just needed my Cheeasy A10s

DVL then ... 

Never flew it

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

If you're going to water down the Fed DNL, then beef up theF-DN. According to my SFC manual, the Fed DN had 50% less fire power than everyone elses 1st fielded DN. Balance for balance...

[FPF-DieHard]

If you're going to water down the Fed DNL, then beef up theF-DN. According to my SFC manual, the Fed DN had 50% less fire power than everyone elses 1st fielded DN. Balance for balance...

The only thing that would be touched is the FYA, that's about it

[762_XC]

Good lord, you Feds have it easy. 

Try some Hydran dreads! 

[Dizzy]

FT, I prefer the BCG over the BCF in a C7 fight. It's how I use my drones... Ask any of the Klinks, I'll bet they remember me flying BCG's more than BCF's. Ask Krueg, hehe. The BCF's power curve ruins my proxie game. And there's something special I do with all those extra drones.

Upping the DC to 12 will just disadvantage the C7 even more imo. I'm sure you look at it differently.

On a seperate note, I do think the FDVL annd FDNL need a later FYA. I wouldnt nerf them, but I'd give the DVL a CVA classification for fleeting purposes. That ship is a monster. I wonder if the FDN/+ has a 2 shuttle launch rate. That'd be the only tweak I'd make to them.

[Capt Jeff]

The F-BCT/+ I designed for AOTK was the most balanced Fed BCH's ever !!!!

AS for the DVL....scrap it.   If you want to promote line ship use, why is there so many cheesy carriers/PFTs being added to the list?   I'd prefer to stick with CVS/BCV/CVA only for carriers.  Nuke the rest, especially the Silly interdiction carriers or whatever they are called.   Cheese soup with extra cheese on top there.

F-DN?  Scrap it as well.  What a worthless pile.

[Dizzy]

Nah, the FDN give it a 2 launch rate. It could do something against the roms. Oh wait, they are allied. Hrmmm.

I'd keep patrol carriers. I'm fine with you scrapping the Interdiction carriers, but Crim wont like it. I say use my fleeting rules. It's a good way to keep everything in and balanced.

[FPF-DieHard]

Interdiction Carriers are pure bullsh*t but reasonable as long as tey are considered capital ships regarding fleeting.  They should probrably be considered BCHs regarding metal points.

[FPF-DieHard]

The F-BCT/+ I designed for AOTK was the most balanced Fed BCH's ever !!!!

It was garbage Jeff

[Capt Jeff]

The F-BCT/+ I designed for AOTK was the most balanced Fed BCH's ever !!!!

It was garbage Jeff

Really?   Every person I knew to have flown it thought it was nice.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

The F-BCT/+ I designed for AOTK was the most balanced Fed BCH's ever !!!!

AS for the DVL....scrap it.   If you want to promote line ship use, why is there so many cheesy carriers/PFTs being added to the list?   I'd prefer to stick with CVS/BCV/CVA only for carriers.  Nuke the rest, especially the Silly interdiction carriers or whatever they are called.   Cheese soup with extra cheese on top there.

F-DN?  Scrap it as well.  What a worthless pile.

What were the stats on that thing.... I don't have the previous shiplist it was on anymore

[762_XC]

AOTK??? Does anyone seriously want to go down that road again?

[Capt Jeff]

AOTK??? Does anyone seriously want to go down that road again?

Not, repeat, NOT that I am going to "go down that road again" for SS3, but I wonder what makes tinkering with the list now (especially with all the massive cheese that's been added lately), different then before?

Myself, SkullnBones, Dogmatix, Kzinbane, Max Power, Drall, Renegade, Pharoah, Fluf, S'cipio (I believe) couldn't do the job right before, but now it's all going to come together seamlessly right?   LOL

Back then, we didn't have DNL's, DVL's, CF's, HDWM's, COV's, CVP's,  and we all seemed to have a hell of a time (obviously, we're still here).

A happy medium is what I want.  Get rid of the glaring problems and make simple rules for the rest....

[Dizzy]

The FBCHT is a glaring problem. Dont use stupid ships please!!! 

[FPF-DieHard]

Myself, SkullnBones, Dogmatix, Kzinbane, Max Power, Drall, Renegade, Pharoah, Fluf, S'cipio (I believe) couldn't do the job right before, but now it's all going to come together seamlessly right?   LOL

No, you couldn't.  That list sucked @ss.  Does a Novahawk really need Plasma-D and MORE Phasers? 

THe SGO/DH123 lists may be cheesy, but the cheese is more even.   The nice part about "even" cheese is it can be reduced accross the races without singling anyone out.  If BCHs with 4 PFs are OTT, and admin can remove them across the board as even races has one.

As and admin, remove what you don't like.  As a mod-modder (it's Firesoul's mod, we just screw around with it) I'd rather leave the stuff in so an admin has more colors to paint with.

[el-Karnak]

AOTK??? Does anyone seriously want to go down that road again?

Not, repeat, NOT that I am going to "go down that road again" for SS3, but I wonder what makes tinkering with the list now (especially with all the massive cheese that's been added lately), different then before?

Myself, SkullnBones, Dogmatix, Kzinbane, Max Power, Drall, Renegade, Pharoah, Fluf, S'cipio (I believe) couldn't do the job right before, but now it's all going to come together seamlessly right?   LOL

Back then, we didn't have DNL's, DVL's, CF's, HDWM's, COV's, CVP's,  and we all seemed to have a hell of a time (obviously, we're still here).

A happy medium is what I want.  Get rid of the glaring problems and make simple rules for the rest....

Blade and I were involved with AOTK shiplist discussion too. The I-CVAD "DN that became a CA" was not a good thing.  Putting in Plas-D on the ISC ships was kinda cool though.

I think any  BCH ship with 4 PFs is too much. 2 PFs works pretty well.

[Dizzy]

The LBCHT isnt too bad... those pfs suck balls.

[el-Karnak]

The LBCHT isnt too bad... those pfs suck balls.

The L-BCHT caused a lot of consternation among the frog players in SS2 cuz there was no matching ISC ship. Would need an I-CCZ with a couple PFs or 8 to 12 CAV-IIIs to compensate. 

Then there's always the AoTK I-CVAD "DN that became a CA"  ship with 16 CAV-IIIs. I saw them CAVs rip down SBs in a couple passes on AoTK. That was really OTT. 

[Father Ted]

Myself, SkullnBones, Dogmatix, Kzinbane, Max Power, Drall, Renegade, Pharoah, Fluf, S'cipio (I believe) couldn't do the job right before, but now it's all going to come together seamlessly right?   LOL

No, you couldn't.  That list sucked @ss.  Does a Novahawk really need Plasma-D and MORE Phasers? 

THe SGO/DH123 lists may be cheesy, but the cheese is more even.   The nice part about "even" cheese is it can be reduced accross the races without singling anyone out.  If BCHs with 4 PFs are OTT, and admin can remove them across the board as even races has one.

As and admin, remove what you don't like.  As a mod-modder (it's Firesoul's mod, we just screw around with it) I'd rather leave the stuff in so an admin has more colors to paint with.

So now it's you and Dizzy who decide what's cheese and what isn't? Forgive me for being a bit skeptical. BTW: maybe you got your arse kicked while flying a BCT, but I found it the perfect compromise BCH for Feds. Guess that makes it unacceptable. Afterall, we can't allow a decent Fed battlecruiser, can we?

[FPF-DieHard]

So now it's you and Dizzy who decide what's cheese and what isn't? Forgive me for being a bit skeptical. BTW: maybe you got your arse kicked while flying a BCT, but I found it the perfect compromise BCH for Feds. Guess that makes it unacceptable. Afterall, we can't allow a decent Fed battlecruiser, can we?

F-BCF, F-BCG, F-BCV are excellent battlecruisers.  I'll take you in a C7 anyday in any of those ships to proove my point.

[FPF-DieHard]

So now it's you and Dizzy who decide what's cheese and what isn't?

If we are admining a server, yes it is up to us. 

[Hexx]

Myself, SkullnBones, Dogmatix, Kzinbane, Max Power, Drall, Renegade, Pharoah, Fluf, S'cipio (I believe) couldn't do the job right before, but now it's all going to come together seamlessly right?   LOL

No, you couldn't.  That list sucked @ss.  Does a Novahawk really need Plasma-D and MORE Phasers? 

THe SGO/DH123 lists may be cheesy, but the cheese is more even.   The nice part about "even" cheese is it can be reduced accross the races without singling anyone out.  If BCHs with 4 PFs are OTT, and admin can remove them across the board as even races has one.

As and admin, remove what you don't like.  As a mod-modder (it's Firesoul's mod, we just screw around with it) I'd rather leave the stuff in so an admin has more colors to paint with.

So now it's you and Dizzy who decide what's cheese and what isn't? Forgive me for being a bit skeptical. BTW: maybe you got your arse kicked while flying a BCT, but I found it the perfect compromise BCH for Feds. Guess that makes it unacceptable. Afterall, we can't allow a decent Fed battlecruiser, can we?

Just out of curiousity... is it possible for you to actually make a post that doesn't end up making you look
like some kinda paranoid lunatic?

We can agree that DH and Dizzy are stupid, no real question there.

But -unfortunately you still haven't actually said what you wanted. ~Some of us missed the original shiplist debates.
So here's a thought, type out what you'd like the DN's to be like between the accusations of DH and Dizzy being out to personally screw you over .
Again I'm not sure how they've done this, -Fed CF is a great ship,CS+ they refuse to get rid of, and Dizzy's kills will drop by like 70%
if he can't fly that DNL.. but I'm sure you have a point and I'd be happy to hear if.
Hell I even made a suggestion to fix up some Hydran stuff that seemed out of whack, and I pretty much loathe t00l.

[Hexx]

AOTK??? Does anyone seriously want to go down that road again?

Myself, SkullnBones, Dogmatix, Kzinbane, Max Power, Drall, Renegade, Pharoah, Fluf, S'cipio (I believe) couldn't do the job right before, but now it's all going to come together seamlessly right?   LOL

Yes
You didn't have me before.
Sad but true.

[Father Ted]

Here's what I want, in case it didn't come to you before now: the original F-DNH, not DH's neutered one, a BCG with 12 drone control(if we can fool around with Klink carriers that aren't SFB originals, we can fix this oversight), and leave the damn DNL alone. If this is too dense for them to wrap their heads around, fine, I'll pass on future SGO servers.

[Dizzy]

So now it's you and Dizzy who decide what's cheese and what isn't? Forgive me for being a bit skeptical. BTW: maybe you got your arse kicked while flying a BCT, but I found it the perfect compromise BCH for Feds. Guess that makes it unacceptable. Afterall, we can't allow a decent Fed battlecruiser, can we?

What are u talking about? I dont know anyone who could get their ass kicked while flying a FBCHT. U cant hit it with drones, it can run 31 and phaser boat you to death or slow a bit and proxie you with 8 photons out to range 30. It's the perfect ship. no other race could have a better BC. It has no weaknesses I know of. And if you found it the perfect compromise what is being compromised??? I dont understand wtf you're talking about and mb if I did I might see what you're saying. Right now, I'd have to agree with hexx about your paranoid lunacy...

As far as decent fed BC's... The BCF is a very good ship, although up to fast drones I prefer the BCG. What's not decent about them? They can pretty much fight and win against anything in the same class cept a well flown CCZ.

[KBF-Kurok]

 Heck while were complaining about  battle cruisers i have a couple the c7 needs another add we could also use a drone varient of the ship like the feds and then how about something with more power and heavy weapons like the BCE.While were at it the  newer classes of D7 could use better dizzy arcs say something like Dizzy gave us on  past servers fh i think it was.this is all toungh in cheek of course but sisnce someone has seen fit to make a suggestion to make a ship more competitive i thought i throw these out.
 It would be nice to see these things and a working klink DXDm been waiting for that one for a while( over a year iirc)
 Kurok

[Hexx]

Here's what I want, in case it didn't come to you before now: the original F-DNH, not DH's neutered one, a BCG with 12 drone control(if we can fool around with Klink carriers that aren't SFB originals, we can fix this oversight), and leave the damn DNL alone. If this is too dense for them to wrap their heads around, fine, I'll pass on future SGO servers.

See?
All better- you got the important stuff out before you kicked into mini-rant mode.

Now- for anyone who can- what's the dif between the original Fed-DNH and the one DH designed.
(Actually of course FS ported it I believe, but he's not around anymore so it's more fun to blame DH..)

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Heck while were complaining about  battle cruisers i have a couple the c7 needs another add we could also use a drone varient of the ship like the feds and then how about something with more power and heavy weapons like the BCE.While were at it the  newer classes of D7 could use better dizzy arcs say something like Dizzy gave us on  past servers fh i think it was.this is all toungh in cheek of course but sisnce someone has seen fit to make a suggestion to make a ship more competitive i thought i throw these out.
 It would be nice to see these things and a working klink DXDm been waiting for that one for a while( over a year iirc)
 Kurok

*snicker*

Just as long as I get my extra PhG's to deal with the extra drone racks your carriers will be getting....

While we are at it, can the Hydrans have 100% of their fighters while everyone else retains the 2/3's rule?

Race whoring at it finest...

[Grim]

Myself, SkullnBones, Dogmatix, Kzinbane, Max Power, Drall, Renegade, Pharoah, Fluf, S'cipio (I believe) couldn't do the job right before, but now it's all going to come together seamlessly right?   LOL

No, you couldn't.  That list sucked @ss.  Does a Novahawk really need Plasma-D and MORE Phasers? 

THe SGO/DH123 lists may be cheesy, but the cheese is more even.   The nice part about "even" cheese is it can be reduced accross the races without singling anyone out.  If BCHs with 4 PFs are OTT, and admin can remove them across the board as even races has one.

As and admin, remove what you don't like.  As a mod-modder (it's Firesoul's mod, we just screw around with it) I'd rather leave the stuff in so an admin has more colors to paint with.

So now it's you and Dizzy who decide what's cheese and what isn't? Forgive me for being a bit skeptical. BTW: maybe you got your arse kicked while flying a BCT, but I found it the perfect compromise BCH for Feds. Guess that makes it unacceptable. Afterall, we can't allow a decent Fed battlecruiser, can we?

Just out of curiousity... is it possible for you to actually make a post that doesn't end up making you look
like some kinda paranoid lunatic?

How is he acting like a 'paranoid lunatic'? He raises a valid point, that its difficult to define so called cheese as each person has their own interpretations of what a cheesey ship actually is. If you read this thread there are posts by some people who have stated what their opinion of what 'Cheese' is, and then when someone voices an opinion disagreeing with that, they get shot down.

Once again we see this strive for balance, in a game that isnt supposed to be fully balanced. Whatever changes you make you are bound to piss someone off or some race will take a major hit in their shiplist in order to try and create this balance. I don't see how you can succeed.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Here's what I want, in case it didn't come to you before now: the original F-DNH, not DH's neutered one, a BCG with 12 drone control(if we can fool around with Klink carriers that aren't SFB originals, we can fix this oversight), and leave the damn DNL alone. If this is too dense for them to wrap their heads around, fine, I'll pass on future SGO servers.

See?
All better- you got the important stuff out before you kicked into mini-rant mode.

Now- for anyone who can- what's the dif between the original Fed-DNH and the one DH designed.
(Actually of course FS ported it I believe, but he's not around anymore so it's more fun to blame DH..)

G-racks compromise. 

Original F-DNH has 6 AMD 6.

DH's F-DNH has 2 AMD 12.

Drone control dropped from 12 (Taldren's doing) to 6 (SFB standard)

[Dizzy]

I'll tell you right off, the FDNH is the ONLY ship without nerfed G racks that has 3 or more in the list. This was a fix a long time ago coming and we still havent decided how the FDNH should be configured to pare it down from its uberness throne. DH's proposal for losing a single ADD12 is very fair, more so than what my fix would be. Who knows, mb it wont get touched.

The BCG will NEVER get a 12 drone ctrl on one of my servers. Are you insane? Where did you dream this up? You're just going to have to time your scatter packs better.

The DNL... It's OTT, and I prefer to push it's FYA back a bit for obvious reasons. Looking at the armament and power curve it's as to the FDN's as a CX is to a CA. It's simply too powerful for it's time. Nothing about it needs to be nerfed imo.

[KBF-Kurok]

LOL at bear

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Here's what I want, in case it didn't come to you before now: the original F-DNH, not DH's neutered one, a BCG with 12 drone control(if we can fool around with Klink carriers that aren't SFB originals, we can fix this oversight), and leave the damn DNL alone. If this is too dense for them to wrap their heads around, fine, I'll pass on future SGO servers.

I will agree that it is kind of ridiculous that a 'Guided Missile Battle Crusier' can't have more than 6 drones in the air at a time.

But from my limited SFB experience, it only had 6 DC.... but it usually had a fleet mate to transfer drone control to... we can't do that here.

Personally, I think it should be raised to 10, so it can have 2 loads in the air or a SP + 1 load in the air....

I think that would balance it out.

Of course, I just help testing... I don't make the decisions....

[Dizzy]

G-racks compromise. 

Original F-DNH has 6 AMD 6.

DH's F-DNH has 2 AMD 12.

Drone control dropped from 12 (Taldren's doing) to 6 (SFB standard)

Original FDNH in the past lists have 3 ADD12's not 6x ADD6. DH's mod is 2 ADD12. Not too much a nerfing imo.

DC on the FDNH has varied on past servers from 6 to 12. It needs to be 6.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

LOL at bear

Hey!!!

I'm serious about the 100% fighter thing...

[Hexx]

How is he acting like a 'paranoid lunatic'? He raises a valid point, that its difficult to define so called cheese as each person has their own interpretations of what a cheesey ship actually is. If you read this thread there are posts by some people who have stated what their opinion of what 'Cheese' is, and then when someone voices an opinion disagreeing with that, they get shot down.

Well "whiny bastard" is already reserved for t00l.
"stupid <expletive deleted>" is DH's moniker.
paranoid lunatic seemed to fit somehow.

And no- no offence to Ted, but hadn't raised a valid point.
He jumped into teh conversation ranting about DH being anti-Fed, which honestly given the cheeseypoof ships
for the Feds that DH & Dizzy have let into the list is absurd.

All I ever asked for was what exactly he wanted to see added/changed.
ie something to work with rather than accusations.

Of course anything changed screws something else over, the only question is does it screw someone over less than it balances the
origianl reason for the change.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

G-racks compromise. 

Original F-DNH has 6 AMD 6.

DH's F-DNH has 2 AMD 12.

Drone control dropped from 12 (Taldren's doing) to 6 (SFB standard)

Original FDNH in the past lists have 3 ADD12's not 6x ADD6. DH's mod is 2 ADD12. Not too much a nerfing imo.

DC on the FDNH has varied on past servers from 6 to 12. It needs to be 6.

Sorry, maybe that was one of the compromises that was proposed at one point then....

As for the DC 6, I have no problem with it.  Again though, as with the F-BCG, it is supposed to have ships to transfer drone control too...

BUT, as I told DH the other day, I think the casual pf tenders need to have an increase of 2 or 4 DC to compensate for the lack of DC on the PF's.

[Dizzy]

D7 could use better dizzy arcs say something like Dizzy gave us on  past servers fh i think it was.this is all toungh in cheek of course but sisnce someone has seen fit to make a suggestion to make a ship more competitive i thought i throw these out.
 Kurok

Yeah, I remember giving the D7W FHR/L arcs. In 75 when all the D5's have it, then the DWL's and then the C7's... just makes the D7W a dog. Oh well, it supposed to be a dog.   Bottom line is when something sucks and no one is complaining about it, why bother enhancing it when there are better ships to fly? I see no good reason to mess with a lot of things that could be messed with that I really would like to mess with.

[Dizzy]

I think the casual pf tenders need to have an increase of 2 or 4 DC to compensate for the lack of DC on the PF's.

Explain please. Im lost.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

F-DNHf & F-BCGf both have DC 6.

F-PF has 2 drone racks and is supposed to have the DC for 2 or 4 drones (not sure, ask DH for the details on that).

But, b/c of the mechanics of the game, any drones launched by the pf's are counted against the mothership's DC.

So where it should be able to have at least 10 drones in the air (6 from ship, 2 from each pf) it can only have 6.

40% reduction in drone throw and don't say to time it b/c you can not effectively do that with pf's like you can from the fleet panel.

[Dizzy]

Ahhh, so DC for PF's is determined by the DC of the mothership? That'd be a problem for the BCG then. Are you sure that's how it works? Been so long since I've flown one.

[KBF-Kurok]

umm the reason to put them on the D7w if not the others is because it can take more damage than the D5w and makes it more comtetitive with the other line ships. The D5w having less hull and beeing able to take less damage put it at a great disadvantage  with the ships they are fighting. But like i said it was all toungh in cheek so i realy didn't expect to see it again. As for the BCG getting more drone control im for it if the klingons can fly squads with out penalties, after all if you check your sfb material youll see thats the way they were designed to fight  in groups of three. hence the need for only one amd on the c7  because it had other ships there to help it fend off drones also why earlier klingons had weaker back shields becaues they had some one to pounce on an enemy ship if they tried to move in for a shot.
 As you can see there are sacrifices by all races  in this game from sfb. Giving them more than 6 drone control on that ship basicaly gives them a mirak BC.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Play test it and you will see.....

I first noticed it flying the F-NHP (Fed heavy full tender) when started to launched my second wave of drones from the pf's and started seeing the 'loss of drone' notice when I went over 12 drones.

[FPF-DieHard]

Ahhh, so DC for PF's is determined by the DC of the mothership? That'd be a problem for the BCG then. Are you sure that's how it works? Been so long since I've flown one.

Correct, PFs steal drone control channels from the Mothership.   I advise AGAINST changing this for anyone, time your waves, it builds character.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Giving them more than 6 drone control on that ship basicaly gives them a mirak BC.

By 'them' I assume you mean either the F-DNH or F-BCG.

If the F-DNH, no problem, but I would like to know why you consider that number to be more than DC 6 for the F-BCG?

Would you consider a DC of 10 or 8 be OTT for the F-BCG? (imo, DC 10 is just right)

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

  I advise AGAINST changing this for anyone, time your waves, it builds character.

Easy to do when you are at range... but not possible when you are engaged with lots of other expendable units on the board as in the last campaign.

(ie getting a mission with 4 enemy AI and ALL of them were casual or full tenders or carriers)

[Dizzy]

Are the fed BCGf and BCFf the only casual BC's that have DV of 6? And that reminds me the FBCEf needs a 6 DC. Gonna ck to see if it has it.

[Hexx]

Easy to do when you are at range... but not possible when you are engaged with lots of other expendable units on the board as in the last campaign.

(ie getting a mission with 4 enemy AI ..)

Maybe you just suck?

~ Hexx the helpful

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Are the fed BCGf and BCFf the only casual BC's that have DV of 6? And that reminds me the FBCEf needs a 6 DC. Gonna ck to see if it has it.

F-BCGf  DC 6
F-BCJf   DC6
F-BCFf  DC6
F-BCS  DC 12

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Easy to do when you are at range... but not possible when you are engaged with lots of other expendable units on the board as in the last campaign.

(ie getting a mission with 4 enemy AI ..)

Maybe you just suck?

~ Hexx the helpful

That IS a possiblity....

[Father Ted]

How is he acting like a 'paranoid lunatic'? He raises a valid point, that its difficult to define so called cheese as each person has their own interpretations of what a cheesey ship actually is. If you read this thread there are posts by some people who have stated what their opinion of what 'Cheese' is, and then when someone voices an opinion disagreeing with that, they get shot down.

Well "whiny bastard" is already reserved for t00l.
"stupid <expletive deleted>" is DH's moniker.
paranoid lunatic seemed to fit somehow.

And no- no offence to Ted, but hadn't raised a valid point.
He jumped into teh conversation ranting about DH being anti-Fed, which honestly given the cheeseypoof ships
for the Feds that DH & Dizzy have let into the list is absurd.

All I ever asked for was what exactly he wanted to see added/changed.
ie something to work with rather than accusations.

Of course anything changed screws something else over, the only question is does it screw someone over less than it balances the
origianl reason for the change.

If you bothered to read my reply, which it appears you didn't, you'd at least get an idea of where I'm coming from. All I'm asking for is a return of the original DNH, fix the BCG(like Dizzy will ever agree to that), and leave the DNL alone. I've always flown Fed, and I'll defend my ships from tinkering in the interest of "fairness" against anybody. "Fairness" is PC-speak for "Bend over and grab your ankles".

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

This is all that has been done to these three ships:

F-DNH loses 1 AMD 12 (to compensate for bad G rack implementation) & has 6 DC (as it had in SFB)

F-BCG has 6 DC (as it had in SFB)

F-DNL YFA moves back a bit. (only a PROPOSED thing, no other change to ship) Current YFA 4.  Proposed YFA???

Exactly what is the screw job?  Moving the YFA is that bad?

And I am still waiting to see the stats on the F-BCH....

[Hexx]

This is all that has been done to these three ships:

F-DNH loses 1 AMD 12 (to compensate for bad G rack implementation) & has 6 DC (as it had in SFB)

<ponders if "compensate" is a synonym for "balance" in this case  >
ponder ponder ponder

[FPF-DieHard]

"Fairness" is PC-speak for "Bend over and grab your ankles".

Fairness is not being a Race-whore and realizing somethings are poorly implemented in the game.  Removal of 1 AMD12 from the DNH does not remove its teeth, just makes it a little more Warm and Fuzzy.

[Dfly]

And as posted before, the Fed DNL has an overabundance of power compared to all other race DNL ship due to starting date.  I will post here the ship, and starting date as per power on the ships.  All these ships have 1.25 movement costs.  List as per SG06 mod.

Fed:     DNL            57 power,    2267                         DVL       55 power    2273

Klink:    C5(series)    55 power,    2267

Rom:    SHR            58 power,    2272(5 yrs after fed-klink)

Lyr:      DNL            53 power,    2268                         DNLPp    57 power    2270

Hyd:     HGE           52 power,    2268                         HGE+      56 power    2272(5 yrs after fed-klink)

Gorn:    DNL           56 power,    2272(5 yrs after fed-klink)

ISC:      DNL           55 power,    2283(16 yrs after fed-klink)

Mirak:    DNL           53 power,    2267


By looking at when they come out, and how powerful they are(not including weapons), the Feds get a rather big jump considering how long it takes for some races to even produce one.  THE ISC get their butts handed to them as by the time they actually build one nearly all the other Dreds are already in production.

The Roms have the most powerful, but only 5 years after the Feds, Klinks, and Mirak have one out, 4 years after the Hydrans and the Lyrans, and the same time as the Gorn.

Suggested to move the availability of the Fed DNL a tad later over changing the ship is what is being discussed.  I had suggested 2 years, making it 2269, but maybe even 1 year (2268), could make a difference.

[FPF-DieHard]

Would anyone object to the F-DN+ FYA being changed to 2267 if the F-DNL is pushed back a year or 2?

[Dfly]

  The DN+ would  end up being moved earlier by 5 years if you move it to 2267.  Doing this, I would expect the DNL to maybe be moved at least 2 years, maybe 3?  If so, I have no objections, and I am not even a Fed pilot.  Perhaps some Fed pilots need reply.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The LBCHT isnt too bad... those pfs suck balls.

The L-BCHT caused a lot of consternation among the frog players in SS2 cuz there was no matching ISC ship. Would need an I-CCZ with a couple PFs or 8 to 12 CAV-IIIs to compensate. 

Kinda like the CCZ causes lots of consteration to everyone else on every other server?   

[Father Ted]

Would anyone object to the F-DN+ FYA being changed to 2267 if the F-DNL is pushed back a year or 2?

But, but, but that is NOT SFB!!!! You can't dare change the YFA if it isn't in the Holy Grail of all that is SFB/SFC! Fix the BCG and your 72 virgins won't look like this:

[FPF-DieHard]

Would anyone object to the F-DN+ FYA being changed to 2267 if the F-DNL is pushed back a year or 2?

But, but, but that is NOT SFB!!!! You can't dare change the YFA if it isn't in the Holy Grail of all that is SFB/SFC! Fix the BCG and your 72 virgins won't look like this:

Listen NannerTed, Legacy comes out in few months, I'm sure it will be fune 

[Father Ted]

Would anyone object to the F-DN+ FYA being changed to 2267 if the F-DNL is pushed back a year or 2?

But, but, but that is NOT SFB!!!! You can't dare change the YFA if it isn't in the Holy Grail of all that is SFB/SFC! Fix the BCG and your 72 virgins won't look like this:

Listen NannerTed, Legacy comes out in few months, I'm sure it will be fune 

Not sure I want to have fune. But I'm having a blast poking fun at your pretzel logic.

NannerTed

[FPF-DieHard]

Would anyone object to the F-DN+ FYA being changed to 2267 if the F-DNL is pushed back a year or 2?

But, but, but that is NOT SFB!!!! You can't dare change the YFA if it isn't in the Holy Grail of all that is SFB/SFC! Fix the BCG and your 72 virgins won't look like this:

Listen NannerTed, Legacy comes out in few months, I'm sure it will be fune 

Not sure I want to have fune. But I'm having a blast poking fun at your pretzel logic.

NannerTed

You expect logic?   I spend most of my time debating minutia with t00l and Hexx!

[Father Ted]

My God, I'm sorry. If I'd known what you were up against, I wouldn't have been so hard on you. T00L is one thing but Hexx! You poor thing! 

[Hexx]

You expect logic?   I spend most of my time debating minutia with t00l and Hexx!

Such a very odd thing to say since in all of our debates I'm the only one using any sort of logic,
or intelligence for that matter.
~ Of course I find that is also a (slightly worrying) truth with pretty much any of you here.

Perhaps if we stripped all ships right back down to their SFB stats, with nothing added to any of them
to "balance" any differences we believe exist between the two systems...  

[Father Ted]

Back off! The poor soul is exhausted from debating minutia with you! Since I have a direct pipeline to the Almighty, would you prefer to spend eternity with this?



Or this?



I can arrange it either way, but since you're a contrarian, I'll tell God you want option 2 which is fine with me, as I'll take Miss O'Dell.

[Hexx]

Sure we can shift the debate to the theological if you'd prefer

Let me ask you though- since the last time I walked into a church the priest warned the congregation
to watch out for lighting strikes (true story- the moral is never go to a church where one of your best friends has become a priest)
I'm not as familiar with the dogma (so to speak) as I should be.

Now-assuming that Miss O'Dell is allowed into the heavenly eternity (as I'm not sure if actors or politicans are)
-are you permitted to have crazy naked sex with her?
Because (obviously) if you're not, then it's actually more along the lines of an eternity of torment,
but if you are-isn't that like breaking some rule or something?

[Father Ted]

Vows of chastity only apply here on God's green Earth. Jennifer O'Dell is my reward in the hereafter, in the world according to Ted.

Sorry, you're stuck with Barbra. 

[Lieutenant_Q]

bah! I already know I'm going to hell... The Almighty would throw me out in a week...wait a sec... my father has claimed he's taking over hell...he certainly doesn't want me down there to compete with him... I'm gonna live forever.  

Guess I should start filling out my application to Starfleet Academy...  

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Did you hear about the guy who was streaking in a church? He got caught by the organ!

[Hexx]

Vows of chastity only apply here on God's green Earth. Jennifer O'Dell is my reward in the hereafter, in the world according to Ted.

Sorry, you're stuck with Barbra. 

I really must protest that assigning the afterlifes eternal groin buddies has got to be considerably outside the purvue of a  priest.
I mean it's got to be at least arch-bishop level or something.

[Father Ted]

Vows of chastity only apply here on God's green Earth. Jennifer O'Dell is my reward in the hereafter, in the world according to Ted.

Sorry, you're stuck with Barbra. 

I really must protest that assigning the afterlifes eternal groin buddies has got to be considerably outside the purvue of a  priest.
I mean it's got to be at least arch-bishop level or something.

If you don't want Barbra, well, tough luck...

I've got a pipeline to the Vatican. I don't need an Archbishop or even a Monsignor to consign you to eternity with Streisand. Bwahaha!

[CaptJosh]

You guys are a frelling riot. As far as the bitch session goes, I don't know what's over the top. I never get into a dread anyway.

[Capt Jeff]

Heck while were complaining about  battle cruisers i have a couple the c7 needs another add we could also use a drone varient of the ship like the feds and then how about something with more power and heavy weapons like the BCE.

A drone varient?  The C7 already has as many racks as the BCG (4), except you have 4 B racks for 120 drones while the BCG has 2B's and 2G's for a total of 100.  Plus the C7 has 12 control.  And you want a BCE style C7?  hehe, sure !   6 dizzys (2 firing backwards) with no drones or AMD?  Who would fly that? 

[Dizzy]

Heck while were complaining about  battle cruisers i have a couple the c7 needs another add we could also use a drone varient of the ship like the feds and then how about something with more power and heavy weapons like the BCE.

A drone varient?  The C7 already has as many racks as the BCG (4), except you have 4 B racks for 120 drones while the BCG has 2B's and 2G's for a total of 100.  Plus the C7 has 12 control.  And you want a BCE style C7?  hehe, sure !   6 dizzys (2 firing backwards) with no drones or AMD?  Who would fly that? 

SGO7BCEPWNSJOO4SUR!1!1!1!

[KBF-Kurok]

 Jeff guess you missed the toungh in cheek part. Oh well was fun pulling tails while i could.
  Realy tho  5 battle cruiser varrients to 2  seems fair to me

[Dizzy]

TONGUE! 

[Hexx]

Jeff guess you missed the toungh in cheek part. Oh well was fun pulling tails while i could.
  Realy tho  5 battle cruiser varrients to 2  seems fair to me

Why you klinks need another BCH is really beyond me.
Really-the Feds just have them so their whining pilots have the excuse of "Well if I had been flying a BCsomethingelse I would have won"
before they run sobbing from the computer to their mom to see if she still loves them.
Of course she doesn't (who could love a child that flies Fed after all) but really that's a whole other topic
I'll drag out after the Alliance loving server monkeys refuse to put 6xAMD 12 on the Lyran BCHs.

Again.

[Father Ted]

Jeff guess you missed the toungh in cheek part. Oh well was fun pulling tails while i could.
  Realy tho  5 battle cruiser varrients to 2  seems fair to me

Why you klinks need another BCH is really beyond me.
Really-the Feds just have them so their whining pilots have the excuse of "Well if I had been flying a BCsomethingelse I would have won"
before they run sobbing from the computer to their mom to see if she still loves them.
Of course she doesn't (who could love a child that flies Fed after all) but really that's a whole other topic
I'll drag out after the Alliance loving server monkeys refuse to put 6xAMD 12 on the Lyran BCHs.

Again.

Hey pal, at least I don't need a booster seat in the captain's chair to see over the helmsman and navigator, unlike a certain vertically challenged Lyran. 

[Hexx]

<sigh> the whole "booster seat" thing is a really a sad little joke created by those who
believe the whoopie cushion is the height of both comedy and social discourse.

I mean- given the amount of shrapnel that tens to fly around my bridges in combat- why wouldn't I want
to avail myself of the extra protection offered by the bodies of the bridge crew?
If they wish to avoid being used as shields, they should fight better and make sure we don't take any damage.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Sounds like someone needs his sippy cup. 

[Father Ted]

<sigh> the whole "booster seat" thing is a really a sad little joke created by those who
believe the whoopie cushion is the height of both comedy and social discourse.

I mean- given the amount of shrapnel that tens to fly around my bridges in combat- why wouldn't I want
to avail myself of the extra protection offered by the bodies of the bridge crew?
If they wish to avoid being used as shields, they should fight better and make sure we don't take any damage.

Actually, I find the height of comedy to be Monty Python, or John Belushi pouring mustard down his chest in "Animal House". Of course, then there's the scene between Rodney Dangerfield and Sam Kinnison in "Back To School" or any episode of 'South Park'. Which brings up "Team America"....

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Sounds like someone needs his sippy cup. 

I hope for his sake he doesn't get his "sippy cup" from Die Hard   

[Capt Jeff]

Jeff guess you missed the toungh in cheek part. Oh well was fun pulling tails while i could.
  Realy tho  5 battle cruiser varrients to 2  seems fair to me

Sorry if I offended you Kurok.  Not my intent.   And if you want a "C7E", that would be fine by me as long as the arcs were FA and RA.  And I'm all for removing the BCJ and BCE as they stand now. 

[Capt Jeff]

Jeff guess you missed the toungh in cheek part. Oh well was fun pulling tails while i could.
  Realy tho  5 battle cruiser varrients to 2  seems fair to me

Why you klinks need another BCH is really beyond me.
Really-the Feds just have them so their whining pilots have the excuse of "Well if I had been flying a BCsomethingelse I would have won"
before they run sobbing from the computer to their mom to see if she still loves them.
Of course she doesn't (who could love a child that flies Fed after all) but really that's a whole other topic
I'll drag out after the Alliance loving server monkeys refuse to put 6xAMD 12 on the Lyran BCHs.

Again.

L-BCP
L-BCF
L-BCH
L-BCHP
L-BCHF
L-BCHT

Do I count six there, with 2 of them coming out in '68?

Momma don't let your babies grow up to be Lyrans........   

[Capt Jeff]

Sounds like someone needs his sippy cup. 

I hope for his sake he doesn't get his "sippy cup" from Die Hard   

I think I vomitted a bit into my mouth when I first saw that......

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Sounds like someone needs his sippy cup. 

I hope for his sake he doesn't get his "sippy cup" from Die Hard   

I think I vomitted a bit into my mouth when I first saw that......

Yeah gross things come to minds far too quickly. Must-think- of-pretty-flowers-in-a-sunshiny-meadow...baby-birds-chirping... 

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Jeff guess you missed the toungh in cheek part. Oh well was fun pulling tails while i could.
  Realy tho  5 battle cruiser varrients to 2  seems fair to me

Why you klinks need another BCH is really beyond me.
Really-the Feds just have them so their whining pilots have the excuse of "Well if I had been flying a BCsomethingelse I would have won"
before they run sobbing from the computer to their mom to see if she still loves them.
Of course she doesn't (who could love a child that flies Fed after all) but really that's a whole other topic
I'll drag out after the Alliance loving server monkeys refuse to put 6xAMD 12 on the Lyran BCHs.

Again.

L-BCP
L-BCF
L-BCH
L-BCHP
L-BCHF
L-BCHT

Do I count six there, with 2 of them coming out in '68?

Momma don't let your babies grow up to be Lyrans........   

[FPF-DieHard]

Momma don't let your babies grow up to be Lyrans........   

Lyrans grow?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Momma don't let your babies grow up to be Lyrans........   

Lyrans grow?

Not from the Kzin perspective 

[Hexx]

L-BCP
L-BCF
L-BCH
L-BCHP
L-BCHF
L-BCHT

Do I count six there, with 2 of them coming out in '68?

Momma don't let your babies grow up to be Lyrans........   

Well sure, but (iirc- been a long time since that list) the BC/BCF are the same thing
the BCHP/BCHF/BCHT are the same ship with different numbers of PF's
The Feds (=you) actually need different BCH's
BCG
BCF
BCJ
BCE

That's 4 , all being just a bit different to provide that extra special "I would have won" excuse as seen above.

In any event- the BC series is not a heavy battlecruiser, it's just a really big cruiser according to ADB.
Technically it's simply an upgraded CL, but of course DH & Dizzy were all like
"It's not an Alliance ship so we have to restrict it"

It's disgraceful the amount of power the Anti-Lyran lobby has over our servers.

[FPF-DieHard]

"It's not an Alliance ship so we have to restrict it"

Lyrans were Alliances on SGO5 so kiss my butt

It's disgraceful the amount of power the Anti-Lyran lobby has over our servers.

True, we do make you fly for them 

[Hexx]

"It's not an Alliance ship so we have to restrict it"

Lyrans were Alliances on SGO5 so kiss my butt

Which oddly enough saw the debut of the Lyran BCV... 

[FPF-DieHard]

"It's not an Alliance ship so we have to restrict it"

Lyrans were Alliances on SGO5 so kiss my butt

That was SGO4.  Did Leroy kill your's on that server?   I swear I saw the 'snuff film . . . 

Which oddly enough saw the debut of the Lyran BCV... 

[KBF-Kurok]

LOL no offense taken jeff.I just see people talking about their weaknesses all the time and what needs to be done to their ships to make them better what need to be done  with this one or that one and get real tired of it. I decided to do  a little  mild baiting and unfortunatly for me you saw it in a different light.
 I apologise if i have offended yopu  or any one else whit this. Just trying to make a point is all.
Kurok

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

"It's not an Alliance ship so we have to restrict it"

Lyrans were Alliances on SGO5 so kiss my butt

Which oddly enough saw the debut of the Lyran BCV... 

That was SGO4.  Did Leroy kill your's on that server?   I swear I saw the 'snuff film . . . 

I think I did that.... I wanna say I was in a F-BCF...

But who knows... we all kill him so often.... when he doesn't run away...

[Rod ONeal]

You know, for over a decade nobody could win the SFB Fleet Capt. tourney in an Andro and it was considered the weakest ship in the tournament. Then someone came up with a different strategy and it became unbeatable. It's been nerfed down so badly that it's barely a DW (It was only a CW to begin with) against CC's.

There's a moral in there.

[762_XC]

There's a moral in there.

Andro's are cheese?

[Lepton]

You know, for over a decade nobody could win the SFB Fleet Capt. tourney in an Andro and it was considered the weakest ship in the tournament. Then someone came up with a different strategy and it became unbeatable. It's been nerfed down so badly that it's barely a DW (It was only a CW to begin with) against CC's.

There's a moral in there.

That Steve Cole don't know jack about what he creates and that SFB is not the most lauded, most playtested, and most balanced gaming system out there?

[Rod ONeal]

Yeah, that's what I meant.