Topic: Best idea ever to promote line ship use

[Green]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

Lepton,

The above discourse is basically what I was talking about.  Defining "line" is very difficult and seems to always result in disagreement.  Keep in mind, I (and almost all others here) think the idea of a line server is good.  Just defining line is the problem.

[FPF-DieHard]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

Lepton,

The above discourse is basically what I was talking about.  Defining "line" is very difficult and seems to always result in disagreement.  Keep in mind, I (and almost all others here) think the idea of a line server is good.  Just defining line is the problem.

a "line ship" server should have a more defined run time and not go into Late era, makes the definition easier

[FPF-Paladin]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

Lepton,

The above discourse is basically what I was talking about.  Defining "line" is very difficult and seems to always result in disagreement.  Keep in mind, I (and almost all others here) think the idea of a line server is good.  Just defining line is the problem.

a "line ship" server should have a more defined run time and not go into Late era, makes the definition easier

Hrm, that plus the point you made above about ISC.  I know people like flying 'em but they were never, ever meant to be put on a balance scale vs ships of the same hull class.

[Lepton]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Regarding command ships being line, by the end of the GW, CCH's are the de facto heavy cruisers, and the F&E production schedule even allows for their unlimited substitution.

I was looking for some information just like this in my F&E stuff but I am not familiar with the game.  Is there something in F&E that would help us define a line ship as you seem to suggest with the production schedule?

[Lepton]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

Lepton,

The above discourse is basically what I was talking about.  Defining "line" is very difficult and seems to always result in disagreement.  Keep in mind, I (and almost all others here) think the idea of a line server is good.  Just defining line is the problem.

I'm not so sure it matters how they are defined as long as people can accept the definition.  I think what may be more irksome to people is the leverage that flying a line ship will give one unless it is countered.

[FPF-DieHard]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Regarding command ships being line, by the end of the GW, CCH's are the de facto heavy cruisers, and the F&E production schedule even allows for their unlimited substitution.

I was looking for some information just like this in my F&E stuff but I am not familiar with the game.  Is there something in F&E that would help us define a line ship as you seem to suggest with the production schedule?

In F&E, a CCH is identical to a CC. 

[Lepton]

Can we merely define a line ship as any ship below a certain bpv that is not a carrier varient, a casual carrier or tender, or a marine variant and must carry the race's major heavy weapon (i.e. mirak, klink, and fed ships must have disruptors and photons on them; plasma races must have offensive plasma)?  This would exclude dedicated droners and escorts that have point defense on them.  Anyone hate that?

My other suggestion was for a much more restricted definition of a line ship such as only the standard FF, DD, CL, CA, NCL, NCA, (or CC's) and their immediate + or R refits.  The real line ships, the workhorses of the fleet.  Not every race's shiplist fits well into these categories.  That is where some judgement will be needed.

One thing I am trying to avoid is that the definition of a line ship becomes so inclusive that it would essentially mean everything but the capital ships is exempt from the disengagement rule/hex ban.  It is not my intent to gut the disengagement rule/hex ban, but to offer a special set of conditions in which it would not apply as an inducement to flying line ships and to make them something worth flying strategically.

[FPF-DieHard]

Can we merely define a line ship as any ship below a certain bpv that is not a carrier varient, a casual carrier or tender, or a marine variant and must carry the race's major heavy weapon (i.e. mirak, klink, and fed ships must have disruptors and photons on them; plasma races must have offensive plasma)?  This would exclude dedicated droners and escorts that have point defense on them.  Anyone hate that?

SOmebody will hate it.   

I agree that there needs be ba e BPV limit.   The 192 BPV R-NHK is well in the BCH BPV range though SFC sees it as a CCH (SFB is a different story . . . )

I would suggest 179.   This is a point below the "industry standard" BCHs K-C7 and F-BCF, it also allows for the Romulan R-FHK (179) to be "vannilla."

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Can we merely define a line ship as any ship below a certain bpv that is not a carrier varient, a casual carrier or tender, or a marine variant and must carry the race's major heavy weapon (i.e. mirak, klink, and fed ships must have disruptors and photons on them; plasma races must have offensive plasma)?  This would exclude dedicated droners and escorts that have point defense on them.  Anyone hate that?

Now I know why we have that disruptor on the Z-DF 

[Lepton]

I've been looking over the F&E Master SITs for each race and have come upon the idea that a first cut at line ships should be the base hulls from which conversions can be made.   Here is the list:

Fed: CA, CL, DW, DD, FF, NCL, NCA, HDW
Kilnk: D7, D6, D5, D5W, F5, FW, HDW
Rom: FH, K7R, KR, WE, BH, SP, K5, K4, SK, SEH, SN, HDW
Gorn: BC, BD, CL, CM, DD, HD, HDW
Hydran: CHY, CU, DG, DWF, DWH, HN, IRQ, KN, LN, MHK, RN, HDW
ISC: CA, CL, FF, DD, HDW
Kzin: CL, CM, DD, DW, FF, NCA, CM, HDW, BC
Lyran: CA, CL, CW, DD, DW, FF, NCA, HDW

That is a rough first cut with, I'd say the inclusion of the standard + or R refits of those that have them.  We can add from this base list those that we think are appropriate but I would say this is the base to start from.  I am fine with keeping or axing the HDW.  Makes no difference to me.

All comments and suggestions welcome.

[762_XC]

The shiplist itself specifies what is line and what is not. The only exception is fast cruisers, which are easy to pick out.

I would take it a step further and exclude ships which were historically unique, like the F-CS and H-CHY.

[Lepton]

The shiplist itself specifies what is line and what is not. The only exception is fast cruisers, which are easy to pick out.

I would take it a step further and exclude ships which were historically unique, like the F-CS and H-CHY.

If what you say were true, why the debate on what is a line ship? Perhaps the shiplist makes a specification that can be interpreted in that manner, but that doesn't mean people will agree with it.  I don't really know shiplists.  Perhaps you're right.

Also, as I said, I fear there being too many ships that may be included in the line ship definition such that nearly any ship that isn't a cap ship would be exempt from the disengagement rule/hex ban which I do not think is desireable or my intention.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The shiplist itself specifies what is line and what is not.

Which shiplist?  the stock one? or a player designed one?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I would take it a step further and exclude ships which were historically unique, like the F-CS and H-CHY.

I agree here and I think the kestrels fit in that category as well.  but it wouldn't kill me to consider them as line.

[762_XC]

It can be universally agreed that:

Droners
Maulers
True carriers
Escorts
Fast Cruisers
Commando ships
Scouts/survey ships

are not line. All of these are identified in column F of the shiplist, except for fast cruisers, and we know which ones those are.

HDW's, command cruisers, and heavy metal are open for debate.

[Lepton]

I would take it a step further and exclude ships which were historically unique, like the F-CS and H-CHY.

I agree here and I think the kestrels fit in that category as well.  but it wouldn't kill me to consider them as line.

I see what he is referring to.  If you open the OP+ shiplist there is a field near the end that specifies a role for the ship.  I am fine with those line ship definitions except for the X ships of course.  Um, are there some line ships that may carry fighters beyond the Hydrans?  Not sure I would consider those line ships, but if someone has already done all the work, that is fine by me.  Wish I had known that before I spent time reviewing the SITs.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I think there are some ships with a few fighters on them, the HDWs come to mind as well as all those casual carriers and casual tenders. 

In my list of the mirak line ships I considered the non specialty variants to be line ships and the upgrades where extra fighter were added as specialty as they had "casual carrier" in their name.  i also considered all the casual tender ships as specialty.  All races have these so it should fit across the spectrum.

[Lepton]

It seems the only resistance to this scheme is the definition of a line ship which I think is relatively immaterial.  Let me cover a couple of scenarios that may help frame the issues.  The parameters are including CCs and keeping the current fleeting rules or abandoning them.

CCs in/current fleeting rules:
3 CCs encounter a capital ship escorted by two line ships.  The line ship have a special advantage here as the 3 CCs could work to attempt to destroy or injure the cap ship thereby forcing him to disengage and if they fail and are forced to disengage it's not a big deal as the presence of the non-line ship removes the disengagement rule/hex ban for the 3 CCs.

CCs in/no fleeting rules:
3 CCs encounter a heavy metal fleet that way outclasses them.  Again if the CCs could manage to cripple or destroy one of the cap ships, this would be a great tactical and strategic victory.  The CCs could then disengage without being driven out of the hex.

CCs out/current fleeting rules:
Same conditions as above example.  Here the 3 CAs would be damn lucky I think to inflict significant damage or destroy the cap ship.  If they do, more power to them but I think it unlikely.  Again, the 3 CAs could disengage at any time with no penalty other than the DV shift.

CCs out/no fleeting rule:
Same as above example with 3 cap ships.  Now the 3 CAs are likely vastly outclassed.  Again, if they could pull off a coup and hurt or destroy one of the cap ships, they are really doing something great and could just leave the map giving up the DV shift but scoring a tactical and strategica victory.  Of course the 3 CAs would not be banned from the hex.


So I think what we are looking at is basically, if we allow CCs in the definition of line ships, setting up a system in which the top line ships could compete well in PvP and get the benefits of exemption from hex bans.  I'd suggest that some would consider this a bit too much of an advantage and I don't think this is exactly what I intend.

If we leave CCs out of the line ships, we are creating something like two levels of playing this game on a server, the line ships level that tops out at the CA level and the cap ship level.  You may be surprised to learn that this is my preferred alternative as I see the system as in a sense protecting those players in line ships from the pressures of cap ship engagements while preserving the legitimacy of the capital ships' role in being big and scary.

If you can put together a 3 CC fleet that can challenge a cap ship and its escorts, then one wonders why they, the CCs, should need the protection of the hex ban exemption.  In my opinion, they do not need that exemption.  As well, many a player already chooses a CC to fly when not in a cap ship, so exempting CCs from the hex ban will do little to change the make up of the ships we see used on a server with this rule set in place.  I think we are trying to get people in different kind of ships and make them a viable option rather than benefit something that players already are doing.

I also see limiting line ships to the CA level as a good mechanism for the new players to get their feet wet in PvP and not be challenged by crazy scary ships in a battle that counts.  If you want to push a newbie out of a hex, you are going to have come down to his level so to speak and show him how it is done.  And if you can't do that, you aren't as good as you think you are.  This is the leveling of the playing field in at least one area that I would like to see.

[762_XC]

If you don't allow CC's you might as well not bother with this. People will not fly an NCA in 2280 no matter how much you bribe them.

[Lepton]

You don't think that people might not choose to fly a ship that is exempt from the disengagement rule and cannot be forced out of the hex unless it is engaged by a ship that is an appropriate match.  You are also forgetting all the hex flippers who might be glad to fly a ship that is exempt from the disengagement rule/hex ban.  You'd have to tell me what the significance of 2280 is for I haven't a clue.

I'd say if you do allow CCs you might as well not do it at all because then nearly everyone on the server not in metal will be exempt from the disengagment rule/hex ban and you might as well not have that rule that you are attempting to exempt ships from.

I think you are going to have to do a little bit better than a cryptic one-liner that suggest you know something that I don't know for us to actually have a conversation on this. So, feel free to expand on your remarks and convince me you are right, but nay-saying isn't getting anything accomplished.